Müller 1902 Prototype Pistol

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Күн бұрын

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Bernhard Müller designed this locked-breech pistol in 1902, seemingly a hybrid of the Luger and P38 (of course, the P38 did not exist at that time). It appears to use a modified Luger magazine and is chambered for the 7.65mm Luger cartridge. The grip is very much Luger-like, in part because the use of a Luger magazine requires using the same grip angle as the Luger. The pistol is a short recoil action with a pivoting locking block much like what the P38 would later use. It is a very comfortable gun in the hand, but was rejected in Swiss pistol trials.
Related:
Müller 1895 Pistol: • Müller 1895 Curved-Rec...
Early Automatic Pistol Cartridges: • Early Automatic Pistol...

Пікірлер: 274

@kurtbergh 7 жыл бұрын

If there is a day when Ian runs out of intricately machined Middle-European guns, l don't want to see it.

@samholdsworth3957 4 жыл бұрын

rapture

@Houseballey 7 жыл бұрын

i love how the ejection port is halfway on the frame and halfway on the slide

@HughesEnterprises 7 жыл бұрын

This pistol looks amazing. Steampunk cross between a P08 and P38

@ZGryphon 6 жыл бұрын

With a dash of Lahti L-35.

@lambsauce5312 3 жыл бұрын

P23

@mspook3137 7 жыл бұрын

Disassembled that thing looks like a watch. Go figure with the Swiss. But I bet it's a phenomenally performing machine.

@FSMonster 7 жыл бұрын

Looks remarkably modern when I imagine it without the barrel protruding outside the frame.

@jagervw 7 жыл бұрын

Wow, the craftsmanship of this weapon is mind boggling.

@PsiCommando 7 жыл бұрын

As he said, pretty practical and elegant pistol, way ahead of it's time. The complexity, however...

@stefangunnarsson9183 7 жыл бұрын

I wonder why he didn't offer the pistol on the commercial market, i know that it was expensive but the action and the build quality would probably attract costumers.

@tillmannfischer 7 жыл бұрын

The cost would have only come down to acceptable levels when produced in large quantities, which would have required a military sale before a commercial release could become viable. Besides, Müller probably didn't have a way to pre-finance the production, which would be another reason why he needed that military contract to begin with mass production in the first place...

@Tripp426 7 жыл бұрын

I don't think costumers buy many guns.

@flyingninja1234 7 жыл бұрын

The Swiss & their intricate engineering. I'd guess the pistol is built like a tank though.

@QuellicheilMarza 7 жыл бұрын

More like a clock

@flyingninja1234 7 жыл бұрын

Good one.

@terminator6267 7 жыл бұрын

Like a Mars Pistol.

@VxNemesis 7 жыл бұрын

Generaly swiss military stuff is well built and way overbuilt. And expensive. Everything from the showels to the rifles is made like that. Hey, even the nails for the horseshoes have a swiss cross stamped on them and an inspection to ensure the specs (I wish I was jonking).

@majormassenspektrometer 7 жыл бұрын

Don't talk about Swiss tanks then... Different game than small arms.. ^^

@mrkeogh 7 жыл бұрын

That "half" ejection port design is awesome!

@TonboIV 7 жыл бұрын

The locking design is actually superior to the Walther. That whole large flat surface on top is what locks into the top of the slide, and the force of recoil goes straight through the block in compression. The two 'ears' are only used for camming. The Walther P38, and other pistols with similar locking design such as the Beretta 92, have the block turned the other way up. The two little ears are used for locking and can be snapped off, so that locking blocks are a major weak point in these later designs.

@chapiit08 7 жыл бұрын

Is it the same Mueller that designed the 1895 curved recoil pistol?

@ForgottenWeapons 7 жыл бұрын

Yes.

@JgM-ie5jy 7 жыл бұрын

good call on the 1895 - it had escaped me even though I saw this - by now customary - excellent video.

@KarlBunker 7 жыл бұрын

8:34 Wondering about the odd little doohickey sticking out from the back of the trigger. A beautiful and really interesting gun!

@jimh6763 3 жыл бұрын

Ive watched alot of youtube gun videos, but you are the best at showing how guns work. Your also much better than most in how you speak. Good job Ian. Very entertaining and interesting!

@elitearbor 7 жыл бұрын

That was decades ahead of its time in so many little ways. Thanks for bringing it to the attention of everyone!

@Perfusionist01 7 жыл бұрын

Another of the reasons that I like your channel! Back in 1970 the John Wayne movie "Big Jake" had one of his sons carrying a pre-production example of a German semi-auto pistol. In the movie they used a P38 with a few cosmetic details to make it look "older". Now you show me this Muller which looks startlingly like the weapon fixed up for a movie made over 45 years ago! Color me impressed.

@richardelliott9511 5 жыл бұрын

I noticed the same thing and wondered if this was the pistol Patrick carried. Didn't know it was a disguised P38. Thanks for sharing.

@ericschluter3160 7 жыл бұрын

fantastic!!! love what you do Ian

@jaguarfacedman1365 7 жыл бұрын

That thing looks so cool.

@pmcpreston 7 жыл бұрын

I've spent so much of my time watching these videos I could probably manufacture my own gun from a bag of straws

@skyflier8955 5 жыл бұрын

pmcpreston that’s why straws are banned now...

@GinSoakedBoy 7 жыл бұрын

Nice looking piece. Thanks for the vid.

@UltimateUnnamed 7 жыл бұрын

Great Review Ian keep up the good Work. Would be great to see it in Action.

@adamrobson80 20 күн бұрын

Well made gun looks amazeing

@hoppinggnomethe4154 2 жыл бұрын

love this look of this gun really much

@MrMorganQuinn 7 жыл бұрын

Really neat. I can see why the Army kept their .38 wheelguns though, The U.S. didn't have the number of watchmakers required to make these.

@Todd_Coward 7 жыл бұрын

This'd look great in a sci-fi movie or game.

@TotalRookie_LV 7 жыл бұрын

It actually reminds me Fallout 10mm pistol, but with a protruding barrel.

@scarlettluger2060 7 жыл бұрын

SwineNahNah I see that, however I think the 10mm in fallout is based on an IWI desert eagle

@TheSuburban15 7 жыл бұрын

I looks, to me, a little like the pistol that Mal Reynolds had in the Firefly/Serenity series, just with a Luger-type grip rather than the revolver grip.

@GunFunZS 7 жыл бұрын

That had a revolver cylinder and a pump action style forend slide along with a magazine. I think it was actually designed to make no sense as a joke, but I can't be sure.

@michaelsommer5255 Жыл бұрын

I agree. Ian's channel is full of intersting guns, that are cool and reasonable enough to be guns in an alternative world setting and retro-sci-fi but actually working.

@TheBellman 7 жыл бұрын

Wow, looking at guns like this puts in perspective how much of a revolution the 1911 was in terms of simplicity and build cost.

@Traderjoe 7 жыл бұрын

What a beautiful gun!

@poofables 7 жыл бұрын

Wow! That is beautiful.

@Axonteer 2 жыл бұрын

Swiss Gun love! More pls 😀 - I live next to Winterthur, back in ye older days, Winterthur was a major mechanical Manufacturing center. Sadly, most of it is gone now :(

@willkriegforkartoffeln4878 7 жыл бұрын

That handgun really looks beautiful to me. It has a good mixture of the Lugers curves and intricate lines.

@JgM-ie5jy 7 жыл бұрын

Even after so many excellent presentations from you, I remained amazed that you keep getting your hands on rare-as-hen's teeth century old foreign handguns. Another rabbit out of the hat. And I don't think a magician would like to share his tricks ...

@sleepypillow7477 7 жыл бұрын

Looks good !

@PaulVagner 7 жыл бұрын

Very interesting that this pistol has left-side ejection.

@desroin 7 жыл бұрын

I actually thought the same. Also a really nice looking pistols I just find it a bit sad that Ian didnt look at the sights a bit, would have wondered how the sight picture of this thing looks like :D

@desroin 7 жыл бұрын

SonsOfLorgar actually even in WW1 it was common for officers to hold a pistol and a club or a dagger to fight CC in the trenches. And personally I'd keep the pistol in my left hand to have my strong hand ready to beat down some other dude :D

@samuelsmith6776 7 жыл бұрын

It was configured to be best used dual wielding along with a luger after felling a german officer

@eggsaladsamich7396 7 жыл бұрын

i just saw that the mars automatic is in bf1 awesome i loved the crazy way that gun functions i hope it kicks ass :)

@bokachoy 7 жыл бұрын

That's a beauty

@SoldfMC 7 жыл бұрын

Swiss and Swedish? someone didnt know which country was which and made a safe bet and sent it to both, LOL.

@Punisher9419 7 жыл бұрын

This gun looks so nice and looks smooth to operate. Could of been used in WW2 and no one would of questioned it. I bet even in today's standards it would be competitive.

@Bladerunner5434 4 жыл бұрын

Great video. This firearm may have spawned a whole bunch of firearms. Looks like a real piece of history.

@bigmal1690 7 жыл бұрын

looks like a really cool pistol, if i seen a photo of it and nothing written beside it, i would have believed it was WW2, not 1902.

@MillerTurnerGrinder 4 жыл бұрын

Fritz Walther was deemed in the appropriate literature, having invented the P 38 locking block. I remember having read, "Fritz Walther was supposedly the most flexible and vivid designer in pistol design of his time." This Müller Swiss Gun design opens up an entirely new picture of the situation.

@SteelCurious 7 жыл бұрын

I love Swiss engineering

@wyvern4588 7 жыл бұрын

Untill you have to fix something.

@dannybruce2027 7 жыл бұрын

Wow. Again I am blown away by these guns from that era. Too bad it never got into production.

@MrMortull 7 жыл бұрын

Another sad casualty of the early scrap to win big military contracts in the early 20'th century. Thanks for continuing to bring these gems to light, Ian!

@viperscot1 7 жыл бұрын

wow that a so cool pistol

@tranq45 7 жыл бұрын

Crazy complicated machining, but super easy to strip. The quartermaster would hate the cost, but the soldier would love the ease of cleaning.

@tutzdesYT 7 жыл бұрын

It is easy to disassembly, but it looks like a pain to clean. Parts have complex shapes and the ejection "port" leaves the mechanisms exposed. Combined with tightly packed sliding parts this makes the pistol look to be prone to jams.

@Sir_Godz 7 жыл бұрын

wow that's a lot of machining. Swiss approved.

@russbilzing5348 3 жыл бұрын

I'm surprised that SOMEBODY didn't want these. The simplicity of design ensures a more efficient build rate, the lock mechanism ensures a very safe weapon, it suffers none of the toggle lock reload weakness, the internal rails could show an accuracy equivalent to a Sig P-210. The U.S.' affection for revolvers, perhaps, might account for enough 'reason' to deny it, rather more than too weak a firing pin spring. But then again, how would I know? Love your vids, thanx.

@joekurtz6587 7 жыл бұрын

What is this lack of forgotten weapons shirts

@dorianleclair7390 2 жыл бұрын

That locking wedge is also similar to the vz58 locking system.

@mauricematla4953 7 жыл бұрын

Cool one Ian. I was wondering do you feel that perhaps with a bit more development and or marketing this design could have gone somewhere ?

@jamespoe3183 7 жыл бұрын

When I get piss drunk at night, I will sit and watch like 15 of these videos, and then go to sleep. I cannot explain why I do this.

@TotalRookie_LV 7 жыл бұрын

Why does the upper part look so complex? Are those sights, rails for something or just ribs to strengthen the already bulky slide? Oh, BTW, since yesterday I'm one of your "only a buck a month" patrons. 8D

@frederickwise5238 3 жыл бұрын

I like that it ejects to the left. Great for a lefty not having the hot brass fly across the body.and over the shoulder (hopefully not hitting the head). LOL

@cracklingvoice 7 жыл бұрын

Overall, this reminds me of the Beretta 92FS (the US military M9 service pistol). Short recoil operation, magazine fed, mainly machined-out construction, a safety lever on the rear of the frame, and a takedown lever on the forward part of the frame. It's arranged differently, with the return spring and guide rod assembly in the upper-rear instead of the lower-front and the magazine release on the base of the grip instead of near the trigger. Someone should revive this design. It would probably not be terribly difficult or expensive to make now with the advances in computer-controlled milling machines.

@tannerg4511 7 жыл бұрын

Great video and interesting handgun. What do you think about BF1?

@spottless 7 жыл бұрын

Very cool! What is that cut out on the top of the slide? looks like a mount for something?

@OutOfReachOfficial 7 жыл бұрын

Id love to see someone make some repros of that.

@iLLeag7e 4 жыл бұрын

Wow, 2016?? Ian has been filming fireplace collection owner's collection for half a decade AND HE ISN'T DONE YET! Can we get a beer and / or a steak for this secret content benefactor? Thank you, sirs! Keep them coming!

@MrMorganQuinn 7 жыл бұрын

Damn you must get up pretty early to upload these.

@4991Ares 7 жыл бұрын

You can automate KZfaq releases, and upload them in advance. That's how you can, for example, release videos at both Forgotten Weapons and InRange at the same time - which causes major problems for me because WHICH ONE DO I WATCH FIRST?!

@jonathonneighbors4345 7 жыл бұрын

I could see someone reproducing them but in 9mm Luger today and they catching on pretty fast. I know I would buy one. 💵

7 жыл бұрын

Just because I know you take pride in pronounciation, Mr. McCollum sir - Müller in German would sound closer to "Myller" or even "Miller" than "Mueller". Cracking video as always!

@johns3861 7 жыл бұрын

One what types of firearms during what eras do you see patent markings? It's interesting that they're present on some firearms but not all.

@andywander 7 жыл бұрын

Aren't the bumps on the "disassembly block" what allow the actual locking block to be cammed down, and what hold it up in the locked position?

@drmaudio 7 жыл бұрын

It appears that the take down piece also acts as the camming surface the lock piece rides on. If this is the case, it would explain it's complexity as opposed to just using a dowel.

@christophercripps7639 4 жыл бұрын

The Müller pistol - elegant Lamborghini What the Swedes wanted - an agricultural tractor (= FN 03 GM).

@tommasomorandini1982 7 жыл бұрын

Does the falling block falls pulled by gravity or is forced by some pin, like the Beretta M9? To me it looks strange that it only relies on gravity, considering all the friction acting on the surface.

@samuelbean9928 6 жыл бұрын

Christ can you imagine the thought process in volved in making this pistol

@TheMouseGunner 7 жыл бұрын

I don't see what makes the locking block drop down so that the slide unlocks from the barrel assembly. In a P38 there is a pin that contacts the frame and pushes the block out of the locked position. I don't see that on this piece and if the locking block is being cammed along a surface in the frame I am not seeing where or how that occurs.

@hugebartlett1884 5 жыл бұрын

Got to be one of the smartest pistols ever made! What a tragedy it disappeared.So many able inventors at that time,so many advanced opportunities lost!

@giausjulius4 7 жыл бұрын

I'd never had the funds to be able to buy and own a gun like that but I can't help but wonder if I did: would I buy that gun? It's so smooth and while it may not be sleek it has charm with all those angles.

@edxcal84 7 жыл бұрын

It seems like a good firearm, I'm surprised it was rejected so much.

@tranq45 7 жыл бұрын

Does the re-cocking bar present a risk of 'bite?'

@lazydragon2551 7 жыл бұрын

It looks like it fits the aesthetics of the StG 44 very well.

@tangero3462 7 жыл бұрын

It seems to fall together reasonably but holy crap that would be expensive with all of that intricacy

@yugimuto9763 7 жыл бұрын

I don't blame you if you don't know but I was wondering what's up with the little lever looking piece on the trigger?

@ldieulesaint0 7 жыл бұрын

Is that some kind of rail for a special sight on top of the slide ?

@ToastyMozart 7 жыл бұрын

I'm a bit puzzled by the overall layout. It ejects spent brass out the left side of the gun, but the controls were obviously designed with a right hand dominant user in mind.

@thetarget1888 7 жыл бұрын

very nice looking pistol one thing would make me wonder about it as a military weapon is it look like it would get full of dirt pretty easy but still quite beautiful weapon.

@VegasCyclingFreak 7 жыл бұрын

This one was very interesting. Outwardly it kind of looks like a Luger and a Walther P-38 thrown together. Anyway, it appears that the locking wedge is supposed to be pinned on that slide assembly thing but I noticed that there wasn't a hole drilled in that part. I guess either it was not quite a finished piece or they figured it didn't need to be pinned in place. Seems like it could possibly have contributed to reliability issues?

@donaldasayers 5 жыл бұрын

I suspect that the hole was for centering to guide the machine that ground the curved pivoting surfaces. Those surfaces are large to withstand the force, a pin as well would be redundant.

@ericn7677 4 жыл бұрын

I wondered if it was a coincidence that the P38 looks a bit like the Muller 1902. Turns out it was the P38's father.

@siestatime4638 7 жыл бұрын

It certainly looks like a prototype for the P.38, even down to the locking wedge. Karl could have just simplified it a little to meet military requirements and gone into production.

@4991Ares 7 жыл бұрын

Ease of disassembly seems to be inversely proportional to the ease of making it. Still, really neat to see a reasonably modern safety, modern disassembly and modern recoil system in such an old gun - despite the 9001 machining operations required to make it.

@tostimir 7 жыл бұрын

alright ian , i am watching your videos for quite some time now and i have to say your voice and when you dissasemble weapons is really satisfying i dont know why lol you should make a asmr channel :D

@dentonwarn3883 7 жыл бұрын

No mention that it's intended for left-hand use? Like the Colt Single Action Army, which was intended as a secondary weapon to the cavalry saber.

@DarkestVampire92 7 жыл бұрын

It looks great for the time its been designed in, but i can only imagine that the need for those locking surfaces and the rails and whatnot to be accurately machined would´ve made this gun really expensive to produce... and hard to produce quickly.

@Jesses001 7 жыл бұрын

In 1902, this is defiantly a wonderful design. I mean, there is a ton of unnecessary machining there, but simply the machining a bit, and I see no reason why that should not had been the big thing in pistol design for that time period. I think this is more viable then the Luger's toggle lock. In fact it is very much an overly complicated P38. That machining sure does give it a distinct look though.

@Daemascus 7 жыл бұрын

Wows theres alot of machining on that gun. Even the outside has lots of cut outs in it.

@RiderOftheNorth1968 4 жыл бұрын

At 3:20, is the magazine follower upsidedown, as in incorrectly assambled?? Looks wrong.

@DrHylke 7 жыл бұрын

That split ejection port looks really cool, but I bet it would be horrible in a mud-test :)

@fivizzano 6 жыл бұрын

25 years before the P38....

@mfdwinslow 7 жыл бұрын

It seems to eject out the left, I wonder if the designer was left handed? Ejection side isn't a big deal in pistol shooting, just a curious choice when most other self loaders eject out the top or right side.

@amperzand9162 7 жыл бұрын

Damn this thing looks neat. Do want.

@sjoormen1 7 жыл бұрын

Nice piece. question- American ammunition was used in their trials,is that correct? 0.30 luger was at time avaliable in USA as domestic product?

@ForgottenWeapons 7 жыл бұрын

Yes, DWM sold bunch of Lugers in .30 Luger here in the US starting in 1900 or so.

@sjoormen1 7 жыл бұрын

Cartridge that was introduced only two years before. That was fast. Thanks for answer, it really suprised me.

@tillmannfischer 7 жыл бұрын

+Tounushi Yes.

@TheWhoamaters 3 жыл бұрын

I wonder, if German Officers sometimes purchased their own pistols like British ones did, how well would one of these perform in the trenches, since we know the Luger P08 did surprisingly well

@wojciechbatog576 4 жыл бұрын

It takes the Swiss to make a two part ejection port ;)

@johndeeter4030 7 жыл бұрын

One of the few I have seen that ejects out the left side..

@munkSWE88 7 жыл бұрын

This gun makes me think of the swedish M/40 pistol. P.S can you make a video about that gun if you get a chance ?

@harrisonrae7924 7 жыл бұрын

Was it odd for this time period to eject on the left?

@dascabinetdesdoktorcaligar4714 7 жыл бұрын

Strange this gun was not adopted by any army...

@tranq45 7 жыл бұрын

Federico Masini : It was a wild and crazy time for firearms development. Not terribly surprising that good arms were overlooked or bypassed amidst all the noise.

@wingracer1614 7 жыл бұрын

what's strange about it? Yeah it's a cool gun but there were better options available at the time. Luger and Browning being the two most prominent examples.

@MrMiguella 7 жыл бұрын

Federico Masini if the luger was cheaper to manufacture the US would have adopted it over the 1911. the "best" gun doesn't always win the contract.

@secondaccount1230 6 жыл бұрын

Edgar Valencia How exactly is the Luger inferior? It's been proven to be a more reliable system, even in adverse conditions and it only lost out because it was too expensive... And if you actually read up or watched any or Ian's videos, you'd know the Luger *Was too expensive to manufacture in large quantities, so the German Army started trials to replace it for a cheaper service pistol*, it wasn't replaced cause it was bad, quite the opposite it's probably one of the most reliable pistols of all time, but it's also one of the most expensive military handguns ever.

@secondaccount1230 6 жыл бұрын

Max Pain Well no. Have you ever seen Ian's videos on the Luger? He's actually done the research, and mud tests, and more. Also, having fired both pistols myself I can tell you the Luger is a lot more reliable (albeit, I have more rounds on it since I actually own it) but it seems to perform better from my experience. Now this isn't to say the P38 is bad, not by any means... But the fact of the matter is, the Luger is a much better fit, tighter toleranced gun and it shows when you actually handle the gun.