Making Alchemy Not Suck in Pathfinder 2e, Part 2: HEALING (The Rules Lawyer)

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Are Alchemists too weak in Pathfinder 2nd edition? We explore that in a series of videos where I go over ALCHEMICAL ITEMS and how to USE THEM WELL. In this 2nd video I cover healing!
For those interested: /u/Ediwir on Reddit has created this guide for Alchemist options and items: docs.google.com/document/d/1d...
0:00 Introduction
1:18 Alchemists as healers
3:05 Feats available to all
4:37 Elixir of life
6:41 The Power of +1 and MATH
7:19 Antiplague and MATH
8:56 Antidote and MATH
10:05 Focus cathartic
11:12 Other alchemical healing items
13:18 Herbalist archetype
14:11 Alchemist: Chirurgeon
16:58 Alchemist class feats
18:31 Combine Elixirs and MATH!
21:42 FAMILIARS and alchemy!
24:23 Outro
MUSIC CREDIT:
Folk Round by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommons.org/licenses/...
Source: incompetech.com/music/royalty-...
Artist: incompetech.com/
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Пікірлер: 61

@LightningRaven42 2 жыл бұрын

What really kills the Alchemist is the action economy and the over-reliance on Quick Alchemy. Basically most feats of the class are either taxes or have to do with Quick Alchemy, which clashes with the paradigm that Alchemists are better when you're prepared. Sadly, the Alchemist was designed first, but it would benefit immensely if it was designed under the same paradigm of the Gunslinger, which is a class that is reliant on Reload and instead of being ignored by the class' design (like the Alchemist) its class paths all made Reload itself more interesting. Alchemists would benefit immensely from Research Fields designed with the same paradigm in mind, which each of them granting special "Draw Item" actions.

@ArceusShaymin Жыл бұрын

I will say I think that the "feat trees" of Alchemist are the most separated from each other of all the CRB classes - You very obviously have the Elixir path, the Mutagen path, the Bombing path, and (more recently in newer releases) the Poisoner path. It's hard to "dip" into one of the other fields' designated trees without missing out on something cool you can do in your own, though thankfully most of them don't have actual tree-like prerequisites. I'm not sure about most of them being "taxes" though - the only ones I could see being useful for almost every Alchemist to the point of being "taxes" are Far Lobber and Quick Bomber, and even then...? That's assuming that your Alchemist wants to throw bombs. I'm not actually sure what you mean on over-reliance to Quick Alchemy. Looking through the Alchemist feats, there are quite a few of the "additive" feats which add to your Quick Alchemy stuff, but *most* of them are along the Bomber path, which makes sense - battle can change situations fast, so if you need an on-demand situation fast then you should keep some reagents in your back pocket in that case, and Bombers are the more battle-oriented of the fields. The other three fields have way more leeway to plan out their days with their Advanced Alchemy spending since that will give them more bang for their buck - especially Chirurgeon. The action economy is definitely one of the tightropes Alchemist has to walk, though - some turns they feel like there's too much to do, and some they feel like there's not enough. It's the weirdness of them being a caster-like "martial" class.

@9652769 Жыл бұрын

@@ArceusShaymin I am playing an alchemist Chiurgeons (now level 5) Other than quick bomb, eveything is from a dedication. I never use the quick alchemy action. because i planned everything. There is so many alchemical items. But your job is to fill what your group lack.

@ArceusShaymin Жыл бұрын

@@9652769 That's interesting to hear! What are your dedications, if you're willing to share?

@lorenzovaletti4951 Жыл бұрын

exactly! Well put. At a bare minimum I would add a "Quick Imbibe" feat that does the exact same think as quick bomber, but for elixirs. But still, there's a lot more to fix in my opinion to make the class actually attractive, instead of a complicated slog

@9652769 Жыл бұрын

@@ArceusShaymin Medic

@Kilmoran 2 жыл бұрын

I thought you gave up on this. Thanks for continuing. Looking forward to the Mutagenist video.

@linus4d1 2 жыл бұрын

I've been tempted to make an alchemist video, but you did a much better job than I could have.

@SilvanOrion 2 жыл бұрын

I'd like to thank you for this. I have a cleric multi herbalist (free archetype) and having hit level 2 last night this video couldn't have come at a better time.

@lorenzovaletti4951 Жыл бұрын

You did a great job with these videos, thank you! Unfortunately, I am still not convinced that this class is on par with the others. Playing it feels like you are putting double the effort just to fail often and generally never shine in any specific situation. Such a complicated class should never have been put in the core rulebook. It should have been thoroughly beefed up and put in the APG. As a conceptual baseline, it should be like the alchemist alone can fully benefit and extract buff and power from mutagens and elixir. And only they should be able to administer them effectively to allies. They should be made indispensabile in the alchemy field, not easily replaceable.

@jmooreftw Жыл бұрын

I wish by RAW the chirurgeon elixirs could be in a syringe so they can just inject the healing juices

@philopharynx7910 Жыл бұрын

For awesome healing, look at the forensic investigator with the medic archetype.

@sfigge1355 2 жыл бұрын

I have been developing some homebrew to make chirurgeon and other fields better. Chirurgeon is the only field with only 3 signature items. That's bad. I increased that to 6 items to choose from, the original 3 plus 3 non mutagen elixirs. This gives chirurgeon a step up on being more useful. At 5th level, chirurgeon gets field discovery for non mutagen elixirs. Class feat 1: Quick hands. Draw an alchemical item, and activate it with one action. Now, everyone gets better action economy, not just bomber. Better action economy would do wonders to make alchemist feel more useful in combat .

@lorenzovaletti4951 Жыл бұрын

Definitely, at a bare minimum.

@jasonsoares326 2 жыл бұрын

I will direct all of my alchemist players to your videos going forward.

@ianmurphy5485 Жыл бұрын

Focus Cathartic is a great idea, but the counteract bonuses are too low to be very useful. At level 10 you only have access to a +8 bonus where most enemy dcs will be in the high 20s. Like so many alchemical items it's a good idea implemented badly.

@undrhil Жыл бұрын

Did you ever make the next video in this series?

@Lucas-qp4ht 2 ай бұрын

Hey Ronald, great video! Looking forward to the follow-up(s)! I'm wondering why you don't mention Soothing Tonic (might be because it's not in the books you're analysing?). The alchemist in my 10th lvl party distributes one to every party member before every fight, as well as numbing tonic for fast healing 5 and 10 temporary hit points every round, which means effectively +15hp every round to everyone! It's not the same type of healing as the elixir of life, it's not a big bunch of healing at once, saving your party tank from the bring of death, it's more the type to negate/heal back up area of effect damage to the whole party or to make your party tank last longer before getting to the point where they need that big bunch of healing before falling over. Quite strong!

@THEdeadlynightshade1646 Ай бұрын

I think it's because treasure vault came out a year after this video I'm sure he would have loved it 😂

@bacchos8435 2 жыл бұрын

Hi! I'm starting to dig into PF2 and I'm enjoying your videos, do you think that the balance between classes is a real thing in this edition? I mean, aside from the Martials vs Casters match, in a teamwork do you feel that every class has is right spotlight? Thank you!

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely! The premium placed on synergies and teamwork and covering different "jobs" itself makes not only every class viable, but the plentiful ability boosts and skill increases and skill feats lets you "branch" out beyond your class. =)

@Reevos 2 жыл бұрын

Any chance you'd do a video that explains the basic actions, usages, and combos of an alchemist? The class is a bit confusing from the basics stand point.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 жыл бұрын

That's a good idea! My "Class Shopping Guide" format is something that I haven't done yet for the CRB and APG classes, but I've gotten that request. Apparently the upcoming equipment book is going to do some buffs to the Alchemist? So I think holding on that idea is the plan. Thx for the tip

@mxt3k 11 ай бұрын

Did you never do the Mutagen video? Dang

@DavMat007 2 жыл бұрын

So could you combine healing bomb with the gunslinger feat that lets you throw a bomb up and shoot it?

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 жыл бұрын

Don't think so, as Shattering Shot specifically states that you inflict the bomb's "damage"

@Dragonspassage 9 ай бұрын

Was looking at all my tabs trying to find the music.

@BrotherVoidBomber 7 ай бұрын

Thanks for this although i feel like alchemist should always be taken as a add on to another class like wizard or fighter who may not have tools the alchemist can give.

@crimsonnexus8332 2 жыл бұрын

A mutagenist with revivifying mutigen. Can abuse perpetual infusion to gain 1d6 hp out of combat.

@TheSteve_1992 2 жыл бұрын

Sadly the rest of mutagenist is rather slapdash. Mutagenist wants the Alchemist to be a melee, but he doesn't have the survivability for that

@ImranKhan-ty9ij Жыл бұрын

@@TheSteve_1992 Beastial isnt the only mutagen you get, you can be a solid healer with perpetual juggernaut, and theres so many other mutagens that can benefit yourself like quicksilver or cognitive.

@XHobbiesPrime Жыл бұрын

After playing a couple of different it can be really frustrating when it feels that you can't do anything on your own. You feel very useless as a damage dealer with your low to hit bonuses. And you are pretty limited to bombs. Poisons are very inefficient. So many creatures are immune to poisons or have high fortitude saving throw modifiers.

@christianna4404 Жыл бұрын

Music is a little loud.

@smile-tl9in Жыл бұрын

Combine alchemy with marshall so you don't throw bombs yourself you give the rogue or archer a reation to throw his own bomb you gave to him in advance. Lend him your valet familliar so he can draw then fire

@chrishudson9539 2 жыл бұрын

Why did you try to defend the decision not to let Chirurgeons get unlimited level 1 elixirs of life with Perpetual Infusions? Unlimited healing is already in the game in a lot of places with focus point healing spells like Lay on Hands, and also the Continual Recovery feat. All of which repeat every ten minutes. The game is balanced around player being fully healed for most encounters. The logic does not add up. Its just an annoying rule that harms Alchemists for no game benefit. But the time you are level seven then level 1 items are not typically the best choice in combat.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 жыл бұрын

It would trivialize the other 10-minute healing activities, which don't heal people to full instantaneously. Many GMs track time. At 7th level when a Chirurgeon would get that ability, a person who is Master medicine can heal 2d8+30 on a success every 10 minutes (avg 39). If they have Ward Medic that is 156hp every 10 minutes. It would also trivialize being Legendary at Medicine: a person who is Legendary and Level 15 can heal in a 4-person party on a success: 59x4 = 236hp. Meanwhile, brewing 100 Level 1 elixirs of life would heal 350hp every 10 minutes, no skill check required. This is way beyond what other Level 7 characters with Focus Spells can do: Champions with Lay on Hands heal 24hp every 10 minutes. Druids with Goodberry heal 30hp every 10 minutes.

@chrishudson9539 2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG and at level 7 Medic can do 21hp every 10 minutes on 4 targets. The actual numbers are not the point. In practice it means the party is fully healed inside 10, 20 or 30 minutes. The game is built around encounters. The actual size of the gap between encounters is not really a significant factor in game balance - it is abstracted. However the fact that an alchemist runs out of healing full stop means that an alchemist can't be the only healer you have you need to fall back onto non alchemical healing . IE you must invest in one of these other methods of healing. So why bother with alchemical healing in the first place. You are better off just picking up a few potions for when you need them. The Chirurgeon is a really badly implemented option.

@chrishudson9539 2 жыл бұрын

If you are really worried about quick alchemy out of combat they should have put some sane limits on it out of encounter mode. Which is necessary. Have you had a player try to go all Baelor's Sept on you with Alchemist's Fire?

@ArceusShaymin Жыл бұрын

@@chrishudson9539 I mean, if you ever only have *one* means of healing and that's getting you through your whole adventure then your GM must be really nice. A savvy adventuring party will always have an alternate method of healing upon them in the case that their primary healing source becomes unavailable for one reason or another. Another character takes skills in Medicine, they grab a wand, etc. Even healers with potentially unlimited healing may find themselves at a loss if, say, their encounters are less than ten minutes apart for one reason or another, or if they encounter a "can't use magic" scenario. "A healer that needs a supplementary source of healing" isn't necessarily a damn against the Chirurgeon - that's just how you play smartly anyways. Also a reminder that your Alchemist provides your alchemical healing options *for free,* which opens up the gold space to buy better equipment so that you don't get so hurt in the future. Assuming you feel like you'll *need* all of them, you can use your Advanced Alchemy at the beginning of the day to - at level 7, with a +4 to your Intelligence - create *33 lesser elixirs of life* with all of your reagents (remember, you create 3 with each instead of 2!). That is *99d6 + 198* worth of HP, FOR FREE at the beginning of EVERY DAY. Realistically, even if you only use 6 of the 11 reagents on elixirs and the rest on bombs or summat else, then that's still 18 lesser elixirs of life (54d6 + 108 HP) per day. At level 7 that's pretty nuts and shouldn't run out very fast at all. An actual criticism I would leverage against Chirurgeons' Perpetual Infusions is that there's just legitimately less options among them - you just get the antidote or elixir or antiplague, whereas the other classes get six options to choose from, and you're *forced* to have Perpetual be used on antidote and antiplague. Would be nice if newer sourcebooks gave Chirurgeon a few more options to start off and allowed them to choose those for perpetual.

@ImranKhan-ty9ij Жыл бұрын

@@ArceusShaymin They also only get healing elixirs for their advanced alchemy when every other subclass gets a choice of multiple different alchemy item types, they dont even get to mix and match with their advanced alchemy since they only have one option. My personal house rule would just be to expand that to all alchemical healing items. Mutagenenisist gets all mutagens, bomber all bombs ect, so why not chirogeon all healing items which they're supposed to be the specialists of?!

@FinalShieldnobi Жыл бұрын

Where's the Mutagenist video? ;-;

@afrosamurai3847 Жыл бұрын

Thinking the same having just got into Pf2e and that being the style of alchemist I want to go into.

@Damion.Turner 2 жыл бұрын

Just want to double check.. did you say elixir of life was magical?.. because most of the alchemical items are NOT magical unless they have the magic trait.

@lamarabbit 2 жыл бұрын

he said Healing Potion is magical

@TheSteve_1992 2 жыл бұрын

Sadly, of the whole alchemist class, only the bomber is viable. Oh and additionally: Alchemist ist the only class, that stays at expert attack proficiency in their main attack. I really want to like the alchemist, but I can't

@9652769 Жыл бұрын

... have you look the video? The alchemist is a support class.

@TheSteve_1992 Жыл бұрын

@@9652769 So? Even if Alchemist is "support", how do you think, he applies his debuffs via bombs? By attacking

@9652769 Жыл бұрын

@@TheSteve_1992 or you could give the bomb. (teamwork! :)) Outside of combat, alchemist is so useful. He is able to buff allies in doing skill check, helping initiative, counterspell effect, being more useful than casting spells. And at high level, those buff works longer then heroism (and stack!) You know the elixir of healing... they are the perfect wake up for uncounscious character.

@SwingRipper 2 жыл бұрын

An important note about antidotes are that they only give the bonus against a specific poison!

@jtblin Жыл бұрын

That's actually incorrect: "An antidote protects you against toxins. Upon drinking an antidote, you gain an item bonus to Fortitude saving throws against poisons for 6 hours."

@edreppert3091 Жыл бұрын

Two points: *everything* in Pathfinder is overpriced, and crafting needs a complete rework. It can take a week just to transfer a +1 weapon potency rune from one item to another, and costs 1.75 GP (minimum cost). Creating the rune from its formula is even more ridiculous.🙂

@TheRulesLawyerRPG Жыл бұрын

Transferring rune(s) takes only one day: "It takes 1 day (instead of the 4 days usually needed to Craft) to transfer a rune or swap a pair of runes"

@edreppert3091 Жыл бұрын

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Not if you want to minimize the cost. Once you do the 1 day, you have the *option* to pay the other half of the cost, or to keep working at a reduction of iirc something like 3 SP per additional day. Which is why it takes six days. Crafting the rune from scratch (again, minimizing the cost) takes a couple of months. With that many chances for failure. As I said, crafting needs a complete rework.

@SamBrockmann 2 жыл бұрын

Alchemy doesn't suck to begin with. This is unnecessary.

@Zakiel97 2 жыл бұрын

idk I played in a midgame campaign (lv 1 to 10) and our alchemist ended up pretty frustrated bc they basically ended up playing a medic archetype combined with an item vendor attached to it, and in the current game I'm in the poisoner alchemist player is also frustrated bc so much of their preparation ends up moot bc enemies either make their saves or are just outright immune to poison a lot. So from my experience I'd say you have to have a very specific mindset to get a lot out of alchemy and it's nowhere near as straight forward a playstyle as any other class (or as straight forward as it was in first edition)

@mister3976 2 жыл бұрын

I think what he meant is... "how to munchkin the alchemy skill"

@londonmatthews9565 2 жыл бұрын

Did you watch the video? It's like, 90% explaining why Alchemy doesn't suck. The reason it's titled as it is is because it is part of a video series called "Making Alchemy Not Suck in Pathfinder 2e", because the community at large is of the opinion that it sucks. Rules Lawyer shows that while it takes some mastery to be useful, it all comes down to how prepared you are.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 жыл бұрын

There is a prevailing view that alchemy "sucks" so it makes clear that I'm addressing the view

@scarabart6598 2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG All hail our ALchemy lord!