One of the biggest obstacles to underwater combat has to be getting your players to go underwater in the first place. They've all played enough video games to know how scary and uncomfortable the underwater levels are.

The most important thing I learned from that video is that mikes can be used as piercing, slashing or bludgeoning weapons.

One of the hardest things to wrap my head around regarding underwater combat is when characters wear armor. Wearing metal armor while underwater (unless magically aided) should be a death sentence.

Comparing mechanics across games systems is my happy place. Bravo! And MOAR!!!!!

I once ran an entirely underwater campaign with aquatic races. Mur folk, Ceciliaia(octopus people) hippo campuses(fish centaur people) ECT. For for 3D play on a battle mat 1) I simply assume that the starting plane is zero. Anybody that moves up or down gets a little sticky note next to their mini It's either a positive or negative height. 2) If range is important I introduce you to what I call a "lazy Pythagoras" simply add half (round up) of the shorter dimension to the longer dimension. If your target is 10 units away and 5 units up. The range is 13 units. (5÷2+10). For simplicity in movement I still consider moving up or down one unit of the z axis to be wonderful unit of movement.

And to make underwater combat more stressful, play Sonic The Hedgehog's "drowning jingle" as background music.

If you are interested how underwater combat, holding breath and suffocation works in PF2e: When IN or UNDER water you are: off-guard when you have no swim speed (makes sense) Gain resistance 5 to fire and acid (makes sense) -2 to slashing and bludgeoning melee strikes (like the disadvantage with the other) Ranged attacks with bludgeoning or slashing fail, but piercing ranged attacks have halved range (Which is less harsh than DnD5e and forces ranged people to get closer, but not be double punished) You cant cast fire spells or use actions with the fire trait (cool, especially since prepared casters in the system are all about preparing and shine in that stuff) And under the GM ruling some ground based action might not work under water (not noted directly noted in the underwater combat, but like in shadowdark you have to swim as an action if you have no speed to move around in water). Might be a lot on the first look, but every single one is very intuitive imo When it comes to holding your breath you have 5+ con "breath-points". Every round you lose a point and if you attack or cast a non verbal spell you lose two. When you talk you lose all And suffocation is that you become unconcious and roll a DC 20 fort save or take 1d10 damage each round. BUT each round the DC increases by 5 and the damage increases by 1d10( which is cool cause if ignored long enough or the party isnt prepared enough it becomes scary even in high levels) The hold breath and suffocation rule are extra cool, because certain enemies like a Tyrannosaurus, or some oozes can swallow you, where those rules are being used (you can even rupture yourself out of them if you deal enough damage, even with spells, so you can risk it all with a spell in hopes of getting out and either rupture yourself out of the beast, or start suffocating.)

"Realistically", fighting effectively underwater is just about impossible (without specialized equipment or magic). But that's not fun. On the other hand, not giving *any* penalties underwater breaks immersion (no pun intended) and renders the whole thing pointless. So the trick in any system is figuring out how to make the underwater environment impactful, without making it so annoyingly restrictive that your players just groan and roll their eyes whenever it comes up.

I agree with your rules-light vs rules-heavy differentiation. Suffocating can be used for many things. Not only underwater, but because of smoke or toxic gases etc that can came up as traps on dungeons or environmental hazards. So I think that rules for holding your breath (specially the simple and intuitive ones like DC20's and Daggerheart's, that can fit in a small paragraph or box) can still be considered essential part of a rules-light game. Underwater combat is so specific - and something that the players will mostly likely avoid anyways, and that will happen only probably because the DM pushed for it - that a game that tries to cover it with detailed rules is one that probably does this for other things and it is not rules light.

Bob is secretly a wood elf, I can't imagine you in an indoor set anymore. Love the nature vibes ✨️

In regards to the question about water as a material component in D&D 5e: I let spells be cast with additional non-expended components, material or otherwise, for no direct mechanical benefit. In addition to it meaning additional water, sand, mud, gloves, etc. don’t disrupt a spell if they are technically present as unintended material components, it means speech doesn’t disrupt non-verbal spellcasting, and that any spell (not just those with listed material components) can be cast through a focus, and their somatic components can be performed with the focus.

Underwater, fireball does not work, but worry not, chain lightining creates a series of thunderballs.

Those tweedy birds are goin wild for this D&D content. They’ve 100% liked and subscribed.

The real treasure is the Bob we met along the way ☺️

My players don't trust the underwater areas after I filled a lake full of eels and made a mystery ladder they could crawl down into a ancient sunken ruin pocket dimension.

I love your videos. My kind of content. No raging, no moaning, no complaining, just talking about and enjoying a hobby.

Being surround by water when doing create/destroy water, would not be thrown of, because the spell does not consume the water in the casting, water needs only be present. Destroy water requiring sands, would also allow casting underwater, as the sand does not need to be dry, and is also not consumed. Plus, since neither has a price, they are covered by a spell focus. Most of the time, spell components would make no difference to underwater spellcasting.

Classic D&D rules (1983 - 1991) state that a character can cast spells underwater if they are the recipient of a water breathing spell or potion.

Bob, thank you and Ginny and Pointy Hat for doing Kraken Week! I'm running a homebrew Saltmarsh campaign right now and these are all fantastic!

What I think we’re hearing is that if we can get a crate of various bows and arrows to Bob, he’ll happily try some underwater archery?? You have my bow!!

One of the meanest things I can think of, is to have an enemy spell caster cast dispell on the party's Water Breathing spell

A video connecting all games in the hobby, like an ocean all nations surround. So... watch yourself ;) you're surrounded :D

PERFECT! My D&D party and I are going to Hawaii later this year, and to build excitement for our tropical vacation, I'm taking our campaign to more coastal/aquatic areas. And yes, I was definitely planning on a Kraken.

Perfect ttrpg game for Kraken Week: "They Came From Beneath the Sea" which is inspired by classic 60s sci fi movies where aliens or sea monsters are attacking the city! My party is currently battling Kaiju that are surfacing all around America.

So the important thing to note, is that whilst you are terribly ineffective fighting underwater so too would almost any medieval fighter be. It's hard to see under water, even if it's clear your eyes don't want to stay open, your clothes drag in ways they never have before, you have to think about both swimming and attacking. Think about the amount of realism that is fun for your party.

The winks and signals about the D&D 2024 rules are killing me man XD

I like the idea of more 3D combat encounters, e.g. underwater or while flying, but running them is a bit tricky. I remember doing a short AP in PF1 with some underwater combat. Thanks to some polymorph abilities and a player playing a merfolk, we weren't too much inhibited, though we prioritized those effects for our melee characters. It was an atmospheric encounter, but the combat overall felt a bit clunky, due to how many restrictions and penalties we had to account for. The big one honestly wasn't with attacks (which, basically non-piercing = half damage, which is simple), but rather mobility for anyone missing a swimspeed. Needing to routinely make swim checks for basic movement or actions slowed things down a lot; if using a check to determine how effective you are each round, I'd maybe suggest figuring out a way to make it a passive check.

Adding water to every spell as a component while casting underwater makes sense and is certainly an interesting thought excercise! 11:19 Classic "Bob the Vehicle" Magnet moment!

I so prefer the vanilla exhaustion to the -1 per level for 10 levels UA soup du jour

in FR novel The Lost Library of Cormanthyr by Mel Odom, the main character (a ranger) buys a (magic) underwater bowl and arrows in Waterdeep - and he used it later. First and only time I've read about one. Great book, by the way

I think in general having a lot of the material component around should be fine? Itʼs not like you can *deliberately* overload spells by oversupplying material components. Although a corollary to that is that some spells might have *air* as a material component and they usually donʼt bother mentioning it.

As a DM with thalassophobia, underwater scenarios are always horror-coded. So dealing with the darkness, cold, pressure, mobility, communication, and breathing issues are far more important to me than the combat aspects. And my typical aquatic beasties are always more interested in grabbing PCs and pulling them deeper/away from the rest of the party than in dealing direct HP damage.

3d combat is my FAVORITE thing about underwater encounters, who'da thunk splitting the party across the z axis makes for such unique tension Thank you motorcycle revving guy for contributing to kraken week

I Love ALL Bob World Builder videos! Kraken Week!

Great video! Love the in depth look at how different systems handle this topic. Always love the humor in these and the outdoor setting XD You inspire me to go outsode more!

Great video, Hippie! Great take on Kraken week. Comparing different system is a creative take on the issue.

I think the reason most of the piercing weapons are not included is because the ability to maneuver them underwater is greatly impacted by their length. Yes you can thrust them in a straight line but if you try to angle that thrust or change position or get around an enemies guard it becomes much more difficult the longer it is. I don't think this applies to the Rapier or some other short examples but for the pike or the lance, I could definitely see those being encumbered in combat. I'm also a strong supporter of weapons like the long sword or halberd being allowed to do piercing damage if the player chooses. I also think the long sword is probably short enough like the spear that it wouldn't really be that impeded ( when thrusting).

Your voice and the ambiance of your video is so, so nice. Splendid video.

Personally I think realistic combat for underwater scenes works best if you aren’t a Merfolk, have gear made for underwater use, etc. Also keep in mind wet clothes weigh a lot so imagine how heavy armor is going to be when underwater.

I love ALL Bob World Builder videos!

I laughed every time you mentioned the 2024 rules lol! "I can't say anything, sooo, I'll leave it in the footnotes." I'll be honest i don't keep track of material components, but if I DID, I think that a spell would be watered down. pun intended. Somehow, certain spells may be less potent as material components are sort of lost in the vast volume of water around them.

I am so glad I backed DC20! That is such an elegantly simple solution!

Yay! Random car noises! 😂(Can we start betting on what interrupts you each week?)

The vids have been top notch lately. Love the promotion and discussion of other systems!

I love Kraken Week!

That Daggerheart combat rule is so clean; for a system like 2014 D&D that really wanted to use natural language it's such a good idea to cover all your fiddly exceptions with "unless it makes sense", instead of trying to produce an exhaustive list that is ultimately just as vibes-based as the Daggerheart rule.

Loved this theme for kraken week ..... as always practical and fun advice to help us all in any kind of game.

I really like the comparison between games. I really enjoy the Bob World Builder approach of using whatever game mechanics you like best or the ones that work the best.

Pirate borg is my new favorite rpg and setting

Hey fellow kraken weeker! I'm really enjoying your outdoor era :)

I am really enjoying Kraken Week, really nice & concise comparison of underwater mechanics for different TTRPG systems.

PLEASE test the sling underwater!

I enjoy all of Bob World Builder videos 🎉

Brandon Mull knocked it out of the park when it comes to a mechanically light but narratively and tactically interesting way to put PCs underwater. I'll take a potion of airy water and the potentially dangerous tradeoffs over gilly-weed any day. (Especially as it partially explains how your gear survives the trip.)

I always saw the materials as the minimum needed to cast the spell in most cases so being underwater doesn’t interfere because the only thing getting used up is the material needed.

Crackin' video Bob. I mean Kraken video Bob.

What a great reference, thank you!

Talespire works really well as a 3d battle map. It's basically digital Dwarven forged terrain you can make maps out of.

Thanks for this great video! It got me to sit down and design the underwater combat rules for my own TTRPG. The Minutes to Rounds rule is something I've wanted to implement in 5e for a _loooooooong~ time_

I ran an underwater encounter as part of my CoS game (near Tser Pool; completely optional). The party was so confident going into the battle because they had no problem with the merfolk above ground; but once they went underwater (using an underwater breathing spell) and the merfolk dispelled the magic the party freaked out - and in a bad way. They started to suffocate and found themselves being attacked from below the surface. It was very close to a TPK (and it should have been based on their arrogance). I let one of the casters cast a summon spell and choose reef sharks who took the party back to shore - saving their hides. They (the actual players) were pissed. "How could you let them counter our magic like that". "That put us in such a vulnerable situation". I had discussed with them before they went into the water exactly what the underwater mechanics were and I listed them all on our Onenote page so they could reference them at their leisure. How dare the monsters of the deep know how to fight creatures of the land in their home field environment effectively. I felt bad, but not, at the same time; this was a completely optional encounter and I know from my own personal experiences scuba diving that it is fun until it isn't and then it escalates very very quickly to being deadly - being underwater is a very inhospitable environment similar to being in space. I lost a player a few session after and the others absolutely refuse to go anywhere near the water to this day.

Rule idea for the weapons and underwater combat from D&D, having the morningstar deal 1d6 bludgeoning and 1d6 piercing and having the rule be for purely piercing weapons. It is a bit more complicated than needed maybe, but I think when you think about that piercing thrust motion being better underwater like you mentioned, I think that makes it easier to remember. And it adds a nice change up to weapon damage i think, though would need to follow up with more changes to differentiate piercing from bludgeoning from slashing to really mean anything.

While some other comments talked about it, I was quite surprised that you didn't mention Pathfinder (1e OR 2e), especially with your prevalence for realism. (And for those reading this comment that are interested, Pathfinder rules are free on Archives of Nethys and PFSRD)

This is a cool video. I like the way DC 20 did the breath thing. Holding your breath for several minutes while fighting always seemed weird. Thank you

Pathfinder 2e has rules for aquatic combat in the Core Rulebook page 478. Just throwing that one in the pile. It supports Indestructoboy's axiom about rules heavy games including details on underwater combat and suffocation; Pathfinder has always been known for its "crunch" factor.

"Which is a far more EfFISHent way to move in water, than swinging through it." Unintended pun?

It just never made sense to me why would me and my friends, as adventurers who know how to fight in land, go and just get off our boat to go fight in water with an aquatic creature

Here is my idea: make them hold their breath when it's not their turn. If they have to take a quick breath, either character whose turn is currently has to help them breath somehow, or they take some damage in game (and technically out game too). Now you will see how fast combat can get😂

Even something like a mace which might normally be swung for more power could, if you were underwater, be used to poke like a spear.

Swing- sling wouldn't work. Sling-shot would probably work at short range

I always liked holding your breath for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution (unless something would interfere, such as a kick in the stomach). This means that an average character could hold their breath for 60 seconds (6x10) with very little training, which matches my own experience, and a well-conditioned character could last 120 seconds, which is supposed to be typical for pearl divers (and Jacques Cousteau's entire group of friends back in the 40's). For truly exceptional individuals, you could introduce special training (or a feat or something) that arbitrarily extends this time limit beyond the base, and for flexibility, you could allow Con rolls each round past the limit to stay conscious.

🥳❤️👍🏿

Can't wait to get dc20 will probably switch over to it and part 5e stuff into it

Maybe a spell that requiers material components could have a chance to trigger a wild magic surge

I don't know how morningstars will be handled in the 2024 rules revision, but I always HOPED since it was announced that it would change to a 1d4+MOD bludgeoning + 1d4 piercing weapon. Which would feel the most appropriate for that weapon. Like in my mind, the morningstar along with the whip are two weapons that should deal two damage types worth of damage. For the record, whips should deal slashing damage equal to your STR or DEX mod (because Finesse) and 1d4 thunder damage. While still having reach. Oh and for the war pick, since it's usually a hammer with a pointy back end that's primarily used for attacking, I'd give the war pick the option to switch between dealing 1d6 piercing or 1d6 bludgeoning damage (and give the shortsword a similar feature but with piercing and slashing, a far less meaningful choice, but a flavorful one). Anyway, if that change to morningstars would be implemented, then the underwater combat rule could simply state that making melee attacks that exclusively deal piercing damage would get rid of the morningstar. It would give the war pick good underwater weapon status with one of its damage types, but honestly, that'd be fine with me.

5:26 I think it would be funny if instead of like ruining the recipe, if maybe a drop of water was consumed by a spell, it just created this tiny milimetres wide vacuum of air and all the pressure of the water filling into that little pocket would just cause a little water explosion next to the caster

Thanks for the Kraken Week content

I do like how DC20 handles a lot of rules

thankfully the main point where the party has to go underwater (if they choose to) they are aided by merfolk who can aid them in breathing underwater.

We violating the NDA with this one boys 😂😂😂

As for the issue of components in underwater casting, I subscribe to the principle of keeping things as simple as possible, or rather, of not wanting to further complicate the rules. If you have the required components, the rest doesn't matter. "But you're adding water to the components" -Are you adding Air to your components when casting on land? No. Why would environmental atmosphere suddenly matter now if it didn't matter before? Eh, maybe I'm just a lazy DM 🤔🤷‍♂

Bob I feel like you’re much more confident giving your thoughts in your videos without worrying about the comments- which is of course hoe it should be. I like it. I’m hoping to do the same

My intrusive thoughts were saying that you were going to throw the old books into the pond 😅

Troika is always the exception to the rule. It's rules light, but has rules for drowning. No rules for underwater fighting though.

I don’t think spell material components require a specific recipe of exactly certain things while excluding others. The materials just have to be present, and adding more water, or oxygen, or nitrogen, or carbon dioxide, or what have you than the spell calls for would not cause the spell to fail.

Happy Kraken Week!

I feel like spell casters need to bring canisters of air as a spell component

Terry Pratchett once made a comparison between Tolkien's fantasy and the appearance of Mount Fuji in Japanese art. That always reminds me of your videos. ¿Why do you deliberately avoid involving mention of Pathfinder? Pathfinder has one of the most complete collections of underwater combat rules. This comes from D&D 3.0 and 3.5 with the Stormwrack supplement

When he's sitting in the pool what's that blue thing hanging from the tree behind him?

I'm really glad I never remembered that "1 hour of swimming, check vs exhaustion" rule. That is terrible. 1st, most PCs aren't swimming for an hour. 2nd, well, Ginny Di released a merfolk race as part of the Kraken week. Rolling a check after an hour of swimming as a mermaid feels completely wrong. At a minimum, I would say it is a rule for people without a swim speed, if not something else.

I do think weapon groups would be a good addition to dnd, though defining the groups is difficult (I've tried) especially without a miscellaneous group, and trying to use feats (like polearm master) as guidelines is also weird because they group weapons that could be from different groups and there aren't that many that do so, as well as trying to balance out the number of weapons between groups. It would make adding weapons easier, because you just add it to a weapon group and it'll play nicely with features (assuming they use weapon groups). Additionally, it would make weapon proficiencies more interesting if martials didn't just get every proficiency, instead a few groups. Except fighters, now they get to be unique with their proficiencies. It also makes species weapon proficiencies relevant as well, since before if they would be relevant you already have proficiency in everything, but if they aren't then you don't really care for them in the first place. Thinking about thrusting motions with a narrow profile being the way to go underwater, couldn't a quarterstaff be used similar to a spear, basically being a blunt spear?

Shades of first edition Saltmarsh.

Would be nice if you included a link to the entire Kraken-playlist somewhere in the desription - just a suggestion :))

So, fireball turns into "instant soup"

Glub glub

I think thrusting and piercing weapons is used in underwater combat.

I love all of Bob World Builder videos, especially the ones during Kraken week! Bob, do you know if the books will be available as a bundle after the last book is released? I want access to both the book and the pdfs, but I have not seen any information on how the bundle works. Will it be offered later (after the books are released?), will the price change, will my books ship separately costing me an arm and a leg (ship as they are released?), will they not ship until the last book is released (making me not have any book until sometime in 2025?), are the pdf's able to be downloaded or are they just linked to d&d beyond, and can I add other books to my order? Here is to hoping you can help me out/point me in the right direction. Do they actually have a good dm guide that teaches new dm's how to build adventures, create hooks for characters, create traps/puzzles/social encounters? I have yet to find a good book with great examples, been looking for years. Do you have a recommendation?

So does the rule, that you can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution Modifier still exist officially? Then after that many rounds, you have to roll a CON save to continue, or begin drowning? Just curious mostly.

👍for kraken week

Thanks

6:57 Bob, please tell me that you put a wipe, handkerchief, or something beneath the boos 😢