Yeah been watching him stream for 5 years and I completely agree. Mango almost never gets actually upset, and he's pretty pissed here.

I would be upset too. Armada/Mango was (in most people's opinion, I think) the hypest melee rivalry that there ever was. Aramda pushed Mango to be better at the game, and vice versa - then just as they were both getting to be the best they ever were, Armada quit. Like Mango said, there was so much more melee to be played.

@@whs1pmjazz Yeah, he's been pretty pissed off at Armada since Armada retired and started talking shit.

I mean as Mang0 said this "When Armada said that he would still be good in this meta and that the meta has not change", it pissed off Mang0 a lot cuz it is fucking disrespectful for people who still competes, and that players who have gotten to the very top like iBDW , N0ne and Zain. As much as I like Armada , if he is gonna do these comments, he should comeback from retirement and compete again.

I think hes been kind of unfair

And look at what happened to everyone who played ultimate. Plup and leffen took months to e from how bad ultimate made them, and they only stopped competing for a few months!!

@@pIayingwithmahwii idk plug and Leffen really didn’t look that bad In last weeks slippi if anything it’s just that players like zain are just insane so maybe in comparison

@@ninjump9 he’s inzain

I’m talking about when ultimate came out. Mango and zain were the only top level who didn’t leave temporarily for ultimate. And plup had a series of bad tourneys after ultimate came out. Also none ibdw and fiction kept playing melee after ultimate came out which is why these guys are all almost at the top top level

When he got 3-0d by zain with a 4 stock in a 5 minute bo5

XD

Rawr

I laughed so hard when Mango said this. 🤣

My cheeks are fixed in lol positions!! send help.

thank you for the timestamp man!

You just might be on to something. Mang0's pressure is godlike

100% not going to happen

This will never happen. Armadas ego is way to fragile to come back and get bodied by everyone and having to admit he was wrong.

@@dylanfarris7647 He also had the fortitude to be that dominant, I don’t think you can count that out entirely

@@dylanfarris7647 Armada has proven throughout years that he can stand at the top with different meta's how do you think he's gonna get bodied by everyone in todays meta (if he is given the time)

It's insane. He thought South America was Africa the other day but as soon as he's talking about melee, he has a PhD

@@_Majunior lol and he thought Europe was a country at The Big House 6

@@joemoliterno9117 27 IQ jk. He's no genius, but there's no way he is as dumb as he tries to be sometimes. Edit: No more pogchamp

@@_Majunior he said one time he didn't know there were 4 transformations on stadium

@@adamice2526 there are?

So he cant beat amsa, wizzy or axe? ppmd was 2 year off and beat everyone Tech is the same Match up difference is only for cap falcon, falco and marth The only threat are the top 7, mango still cant beat hbox

@@sujetonormal3399 Did you not even watch the video?

@@sujetonormal3399 i never said you cant come back and dominate if you try, but if you arent competing and arent gonna come back you cant say i would be the best, or i am the best, then thats disrespectful to the people competing.

Very fortunate for Armada. I don't think he can beat him, if he was 2-3 in his las 5 sets with a book writing semi retired M2K

There last matchup was a game 5 set, and this was before Zain was top 10

@@cameronisenhower7554 zain in 2018 took him to last game last stock. Imagine what Zain now can do

idk about that, really not a stretch to assume zain would kick his ass

@@adamice2526 What tournament you are talking about? I don't remember that. I only saw Armada destroying Zain. Zain is not that good vs Peach at the highest level.

is zain perfect cell?

@@pIayingwithmahwii If anything Armada is perfect cell because he's not training like everyone else because hes so confident he can win

@@hollowtrees6669 Armads is totally Mr. Satan or Krillin now. Would totes destroy a rando, but has nothing on Mangoku, Leffrieza, or insert witty Zain dbz pet name here.

@@grizzykuma5246 Infinite Zainmasu

@@grizzykuma5246 lol wrong but ok

5:43 😩 he has such a way with words

mang0 is wicked smart, nothing surprising about it

Not really. He was straw manning Armada's arguments lol.

Mang0 isn't dumb he's just Mang0.

2:40 "Because the whole point of entering tournaments and the whole structure of why we play in tournaments is so that you prove you are good. Once you stop competing, you're not. That's it. You give away that right. That right is now gone. You forfeit it. You could say 'Yeah I'd be good' but it holds zero precedent."

Damn, you play Melee? Last time I saw you, all of your content was catered to Zoomers. You’re right though.

I mean playing in person is definitely different (just like pro sports is different without the spectators) but but that's not an excuse for Armada at all.

@@treycuret If you're talking about the "Online doesn't count. We're good :)" I think you're misreading. Every other tweet and discussion on stream about online shows that he thinks online is legit, so to me at least it came off as sarcastic/mocking the people that use that as an excuse. During stream after losing (this happened with Zain the week after), his emphasis was on being disappointed in himself and his own gameplay/mentality. I really don't think he's actually blaming online, especially given how fucking nuts his setup is.

Naaaaah. If that was true then we'd just play online. Save thousands in the process. When we can go back to LAN , that's what we'll do, because it matters more, because there's less turbulence with playing (top players regularly complain about lag), because it simply is the best way to play.

Please say that's just a joke haha

Is this to say that old white guys don’t deserve a say in abortion because they’ve never ended a fetus and are old, therefore extremely far from being fetuses? I don’t follow

@@nicememe8608 I assume it's cause they aren't "playing the game" anymore, as in, they are old and not getting some anymore

@@Gabrielnfs maybe. to me it seemed like the game here was aborting fetuses

Absolutely same

I think Armada and Mango both have valid points. Look at it from Armada's view; he essentially was at the top of his game with the only person challenging him at the time being Hbox (someone he hated playing against and having to practice for). Nobody else was even really trying. Look at Mango from 2015-2018. Are we not gonna act like that man was basically playing like he was retired and just going through the motions? He didn't have the same drive to be the best like he does now or that he had in 2013-2014. He was focused on building his stream. Armada had nothing else to do in Melee or anything left to prove; he had gotten burnt out of grinding vs Puff and so he quit. Now, suddenly, players are hungry again to be the best. I haven't seen Mango try this hard to be the best in YEARS! Zain is hungry. iBDW is hungry. The meta is finally interesting again and not stagnant. As Armada, it has to be insanely frustrating to see people suddenly start trying again a year after you retire. If people were trying this hard and challenging him back then, he may not have even retired to begin with. Now he has to listen to people say he's basically washed and was "good for his time". I'd be fucking pissed too. I absolutely think Mango has legit arguments, but people are largely ignoring why Armada would feel the way he does. Armada is, at the very least, still the GOAT for the time being. Mango has to be top 1-2 for two more years I think if he wants it back.

@@Prodigial I think armadas stance is understandable but it’s wrong. I can see why he would be upset because the situation sucks. He retires and then people wanna try, that blows. But to say he could still hang with the best players today after being so out of shape or to say that the meta hasn’t changed much after not participating in competitive play. Cmon. That’s bullshit.

@@Prodigial people just got better at the game armadas wrong saying the other players weren’t trying is bullshit maybe mango but you can’t say that about leffen and whoever else the meta has changed

@@MrBakerman58 Let's do a quick run down. You had Armada and Hbox who were trying. Mango who was entirely focused on streaming. Leffen and Plup who both got tilted out of this universe b/c of Hbox to the point where Plup hasn't been serious about Melee in god knows how long. Who is left? Everybody who was trying was nowhere near Armada and Hbox's level. I guess Leffen had a good matchup vs Armada but he objectively did worse than Armada vs everyone else.

I think that example should be taken with a grain of salt. People picking up specific characters for match-ups has happened in the past. With the difference being that it was mostly only one / a few people who did so, not the majority. - Leffen, as one of the best Fox players ever, had a unique problem against Samus' for a good amount of his career. Was that a meta change for Fox and/or Samus? Not really since no other Fox has had such a big problem against them, therefore it was a unique case of a players habits getting exploited / countered by specific players and/or their specific character. - M2K, back at his prime, still had a huge struggle against Ice Climbers and Wobbling. With ICs it was not uncommon to sometimes get upset by one because of Wobbling but no one can deny that he had a especially hard time against that character, no matter if he played with Fox or Marth (and there were many more other mains who did not do as badly against Wobbling). Was it a meta change when he tried picking up Peach for that MU? Probably not. With the current situation that is Zain vs. Foxes it could become an actual change in meta: 1) He is one of the top players currently and will most likely play at many more torunaments, therefore a match against him is always to be expected. 2) Because of that each and every Fox main (not just one specific player) has to adapt with their character because he dominates that MU pretty convincingly. If now everyone has to play a certain way in that MU or has to pick up a Secondary just for Zain then yes, that would be a change in meta. And that would be big enough of a meta change since we had cases like that happen already over the course of the game. 3) If more Marth mains were to stomp on Foxes on the regular than that would be an even bigger change in meta but that is something one has to wait and see how it will go.

And what about the entirety of the Puff-Marth meta

@@Exorion ALso , "Prime" Mew2king was still bitching about Jigglypuff and wanted Jigglypuff banned lol. Mew2king even pick up puff for those puff ditos in which he would get bodied.....

Nah, leffen has been Marth complainer DAY1

Exactly what I was thinking.

Ken is still a legend with a legacy. So is Armada. He's left his mark and is simply over it?

FRRRRRR

Ken never tried to argue that he was the GOAT. He knew his legacy and accepted his legacy. Ken also supports the scene as much as he can. He comes to events, and even helped new player come up (Like Santi)

@@cencil6497 ken would be the goat if he won Survivor

the show will just do the JoJo's approach when his kid is old enough

hbox the secret main character

@@Carvaka if hbox wins a online tourney then maybe.

@@gelo6099 why? to overtake mang0's single victory? give me a break.

@@Carvaka well there’s not really a story with hbox atm he just sorta lost. Maybe if he came back and won one that would be a nice story. Since everyone is basicly saying he’s trash.

No ones is downplaying though, the only one who will do that is time itself, he can't retire and expect to be the GOAT forever

@Ioulum yeah but he also doesnt think hes close to losing it

@@thirstyfajita4115 because he isn't. To lose it someone would have to have a case that is more impressive than Armada's, which might happen but at the moment there's literally zero indication that it will. The magnitude of his achievements are basically a combination of the extent of dominance, the length of dominance, and the level of competition. In terms of extent, he's maybe only surpassed by Ken? - basically always hitting #1 or at least #2 consistently, tournament after tournament. In terms of length he's also among the best, and actually succeeded in beating the best of different eras (Mango pre-Armada, Hbox post-Armada). But most importantly, the level of competition when he played was at its absolute highest. Mango, full tryhard Hbox, full tryhard Leffen, to name the most relevant. He beat them all. Melee absolutely doesn't have that level of competition anymore. Maybe it will some day, but it's not there yet. Then people are going around acting like Zain is going to take Armada's title because of one year of dominance, when Zain can't even manage to beat an electric rat. It's just so laughable and the recency bias is repulsive.

@@richardbogart4653 spot on

Greatest of ALL TIME Yes he can retire and be the goat. Nobody has a run like his.

Right, all while he was still ranked above Leffen AND Mango at that time.

Mango loses to Magi and flipsy

That story is so fucking funny

Scars dad is a legend

Keep in mind this is the same man who was manipulated into buying M2K chicken nuggies with his own cash, just saying

@@grizzykuma5246 Well when the world is in order, some men are infallible. The moment you throw in a little chaos, these men can break.

When did Ken ever said that. He is for sure more humble about his legacy then these two are.

Obscure comparison but He sounds like the English VA for the Sonic Ova when he says it 😂

I think what Mang0 says about the whole “meta hasn’t changed” argument is correct, though. That’s just being willfully ignorant.

GOD AS MAH WITNESS, PUFF'S SHIELD IS BROKEN IN HALF

Armada has such an ego he can't understand that people might not like him, so in his stupid narrative, it's mango's fault. That was so stupid and people are backing him up. 6 years later he still is leeching off of the smash community. You know why? Without his melee personality he is no one. No one watches his videos

Big brain prediction, i can see it already

Also in regards to Hbox's comment about the crowd powering him up and it not being the same(correct me if im wrong if he did say that) is that the crowd boos him and even threw a crab. What power up is there? LOL

@@EggyEggroll hatred or being the unwanted definitely drives people. Sometimes it’s fun to be a villain

He did not use it properly, unfortunately. He should have used "weight".

aged well

@@dilbert7120 I know! I missed his win at big house though!

@@jaytahoehe won a major again

@@okayperson3041 I saw! I made a video on this and I was right, this was not a fluke, he is going to be a consistent top 3 finisher and champion in one of melee’s most competitive eras!

Jordan retired because the bulls let go of Phil Jackson

Armada already retired once and came back and had another dominant stretch it was just early melee

@@kevincemeno8128 he's talking about his first retirement. Most of the team came back the next year. Made it to ECSF without him.

@@kennythekid130 He wasnt dominant when he first retired, he was very good, but not dominant

The general opinion at the time was that MJ was the GOAT after his 1st 3peat. You can look up analysts and even players, including some retired (not the Wilts or 60s era guys tho) saying he was too like Magic, Zeke, Dumars etc.

Armada may be still currently the GOAT but you know that as time goes on without Armada playing, he will only fall off. If everyone had a quantitative score of melee points, as time goes on, people who play will increase their points and people who don't will stagnate. its only a matter of time until we realize Armada's feat was impressive but is not indicative of an all time Champion. Being dominate for a few years does not mean they are dominant in the summation of years which is what the GOAT status symbolizes.

O

A wrestler.... serious? what do you mean?

@@BlinJe Yah , on one of his streams , Mang0 said that since Melee was dying , he was gonna be a wrestler , and he was hitting up the Gym. Then Armada start talking things like EU > NA , so Mang0 stop going to the gym , start playing more Melee , and ended up going to McDonalds more often,

@@henryreturns1397 ahahah. oh like a pro wrestler? i thought you meant amateur /real wrasslin'

like wwe wrestling or actual wrestling

I think the problem is we are misusing the word goat.

GOAT stands for greatest of all time. There is only 1 GOAT at a time in the context of a sport as having multiple would go against the "greatest" part

I like using the terms GOAT and BOAT to describe the greatest of all time and then the best at the highest/newest version of the meta.

@@citrusblast4372 that’s true but the GOAT can change. Give him a year or two at number 1 and 2 and Mang0 will become the GOAT.

G.O.A.C.T.= greatest of a certain time

Sooo true. All that time to actually pose a threat to Armada and nothing. Now you want to claim that Armada should have NO say on his own status? Geeeeet outttta herrrrree

That last line is the most mang0 thing I’ve ever read. Down to every single last word lmao

n0ne washed hbox and he's only been out of serious practice for a short time compared to 2 years rofl dudes been grinding hella hard. Zain would def bop him too

Not even 5 years ago, you could say 3 easily

Hard disagree, Armada with a couple months of practice (assuming his normal work ethic) would easily rise back up to top 10. And I’m one of the biased mango fans who turn off the stream when mango loses in tourney... but some of y’all just treat his opinions as the word of god. Let’s not forget Fiction quit in 2014, and came back fully in 2018 where he very, very quickly rose back into the top echelon of the game, more or less the same rank where he left as. The meta has progressed and gotten more advanced in ways, but watching the raw gameplay there isn’t a 1 billion year gap between 2018 (where he was still on path to #1 of the year) and 2020.

@@AlphaHatsuseno they also don't mention that leffen quit melee for like 6 months, practiced for two weeks, and then placed third his first supermajor back. All they can say is that "Well hbox lost to so and so after a few months of not practicing seriously at all, that proves my point." Very heavy confirmation bias.

​@@AlphaHatsuseno I think that Fiction is kind of an outlier. He always was practicing during this time, even though he didn't attend often, and he was really practicing 10x more than most people on his rise back to the top. I don't doubt that Armada could rise to Top 10 again, I think that he could Top 5 or even best, but his argument that 1) the meta hasn't changed since 2018 and 2) he still wouldn't be losing to nonTop6 members is just a fantasy. Mango agrees with this too, he has said that if Armada put in the work, he could definitely become good again, but just the fact that he has to put in work to beat the best players of today completely disproves his argument that nothing has changed. I would bet serious money that if Armada returned to competition now and returned to his 2018 skill, he would lose to at least a third of the current online league atm.

It would be cringe if he wasnt or was someone else If floyd said he is the boxing goat is fine because he is, and still can be a top fighter The problems comes when there is someone with more achievements or the skill is better

How many times do you need to come out of retirement and kick people ass to be considered the GOAT. I believe until someone can prove to have a record as consistent and clean as his then they can talk. Let me ask you this is Ali not considered the best boxer of all time because he had to retire eventually?

@@sujetonormal3399 Floyd isnt anywhere close to boxing GOAT if you actually know the history of it lmao

One of the points Mang0 was trying to make though is that if you aren't currently competing, then saying, "I would still be a top player today" is just taking away from everyone still playing that have actually gotten better since 2018 not just *could* be better if they played.

Yes it progresses slower in a sense, but gaining that very very very small bit of optimization is that much harder as it progresses, because there’s so little to gain. So even IF it progresses slower from an optimization point of view, ultimately those small differences also become very big differences because of how optimized it is. Conversely, it also means that it takes MUCH MUCH less time for you to lose it, and become out of practice and fall behind. So in a way, if anything as the game optimizes the meta changes at the same pace in terms of difficulty to stay with it.

@@pizzapizza6322 Well first of all let's face it, would you bet any dear amount of money on Armada not still being a top player if he came back today? But more importantly, I don't know if Armada himself has said that, and if he did I doubt he said he would be the best or dominate as much as he used to. A lot of this argument going on just seems like based on things no one even said or exaggerated versions of comments.

Really just depends on what you define as the meta. I have to respectfully disagree with you

the meta can change without having to discover new tech lol entire matchups can change without the application of new tech, you cant tell me that marth was the same before and after zain become really good. You also can't say falco-marth isn't lightyears ahead of what it was a year ago solely due to mango and zain.

@@Mannydude96 when the options you have to be prepared for change, the meta has changed, it's as simple as that.

@@octo_contra yeah I agree the meta has changed. Mangoat

Your content is fucking badass man

It is legacy, prime, and accomplishments. This isn't a good argument exactly because there are more tools to be better at this game. That being said, Armada only had like 3 years as #1 which is really good, but Mang0 was #1 3 years as well and is going into 2021 as either #1 or #2. What about people like PPMD or Hax? Do they not get a chance to comeback and prove themselves as the goat just because of medical issues? Nah Armada is wrong here.

Nah armada would need to compete in a few tournies first. You don't just get to come out of retirement and go against a top 2 in the world. Otherwise people would john for armada when he loses. If this ignites armada to come out of retirement I'm here for it

At least Ken doesn't argue every time someone brings up his legacy

@@Jay-uh6wq also ken wasn’t Swedish so that’s an extra 10 points

mangos brain on loop lmao

?

@@clr129 ah shit, i forgot about that lmao thanks!

Aka exposing them for publicly asssaulting, humiliating and bullying mentally disabled people? Yeah seems like ratting lol

She did some stuffff

Mango respects HBox because Juan had the fortitude to keep grinding out the game despite the hardships. In fact, Mango is mad at HBox now because he is seemingly giving up.

@Ryan Lockwood to be fair my perspective comes almost entirely from Twitter, but on there players like leffen and armada (among others) would complain profusely about how hbox/puff was “killing melee”. They’d almost always do that after hbox won a set too. On the other hand whenever mango lost to hbox there was never any disrespect or whining. Mang0 would usually tweet something like “I couldn’t keep the fire going. Ggs Juan” and sometimes Hbox would reply to mango with a ggs back. Hbox would almost never interact with anyone else like that, since they were usually disrespecting his play style or his character choice or fucking anything else. That’s what I noticed on smash Twitter from 2016-2019. In general, hbox hate has gone down significantly over the years but mang0 was never at the forefront of it. I’ve seen mang0 poke fun at hbox but never outright disrespect.