It was a year ago😂😂

Doesnt make sense to me why he was even on the same rail as the contractors working.. he hadnt called his mile markers or anything and usually everyone is aware of work being taken place.. but also American Railways work alot different then Canadian, yous have 4-5 different rail companys or more using the same rail..

There will be just as much money paid as there was stupid/negligence. Putting your cap in front of the camera is a dead give away.

FOCUS , FOCUS!

PTC failure too?????

Per the NTSB report, there was a misunderstanding about protection. The contractors thought they had the kind of protection you describe. However, because the track was technically not a main line, they did not. They were only protected by a generic, universal rule that is common to all railyards that requires trains to move slowly enough that they can be stopped within half the range of vision.

@@sturmovik1274 correct, they listed lack of attention & exessive speed as the main factors. Guy was on his phone not looking while speeding.

@@sturmovik1274 If a locomotive is supposed to be on a track ,all else has lesser priority. A train, moving at 30MPH will take up to one mile to stop with full brake activation. Even on branch lines all train orders must indicate maintenance crews location and explosive warning detonators placed on the rails at a distance sufficient to warn any driver. Unfortunately those commenting are confusing automobile think with rail reality. I suspect the driver was a scapegoat so the actual company can escape their responsibilities for not following normal safety practice in place for 130 years.

As my comment mentions, the NTSB report describes at least three levels of protection that failed. That said: 1: It is common for trains to be operated through work zones, at restricted speed and coordinating with the work crews by radio. 2: I know well how long trains need to stop. The limit here was 10, and the train was doing 19. 3: This was not a branch line; it was what is called other-than-main. Other-than-main is a general category of short, low-speed track. It's the lowest and slowest track there is. Usually, as in this case, it is within a yard and therefore governed by yard operating rules. These rules, among other restrictions, require trains to be able to stop within half the distance that the crew can see and not exceed 20 mph. The local limit may be lower, as it was in this case. 4: Detonators are almost unused nowadays, even on smaller local lines. Train orders haven't been called that in 40 years. Nowadays information like this is assembled into bulletins and given to the engineer and conductor at the start of their shift. 5: The person who drives the train is not the driver. He/she is the engineer. 6: Yes, I agree that the engineer/conductor will likely be scapegoated. Everyone I know who works for the RRs says that safety has been as bad as it's ever been these last few years, and individual employees are scapegoated.@@Mercmad

​@@sturmovik1274best answer and explanation to all of this

Probably put in place after the 2008 Chatsworth, California crash between a passenger train and a freighter, the engineers in both trains were both texting just before the crash, 25 killed.

...obviously? 😉

@@thud9797 That is correct, that particular crash banned any usage of personal electronic items while on the job including video cameras unless it is to report or document a safety hazard. This is why it's rare to find modern cab ride footage (compared to in the past), however there are a few people that still ignore that rule, and then you get the occasional cool cab ride video on KZfaq every now and then, haha

@@thud9797 It was in place before that accident as well.

Engineer not conductor are allowed to use their phone while train is in motion or if a crew member is on the ground. I am a conductor

​@@user-zy5vg9pe3edime not time 😂

⁠@@user-zy5vg9pe3e no, he meant dime, “stop on a dime” lol

@@user-zy5vg9pe3e 🤡

⁠​⁠@@user-zy5vg9pe3eDime not time LMAO😅

@@user-zy5vg9pe3e I laughed so hard at this. lmfao

Correct on both counts, nationwide. There are detailed procedures that would have been followed to protect the maintenance-of-way crews. The exact procedures vary by the type of work being done, but if those procedures were followed you are correct that ultimate responsibility lies with the train crew. It's interesting, though, that they didn't charge the conductor. That's the other guy on the engine and he is, administratively and legally, responsible for the train. The engineer actually drives (most of the time), but the conductor is responsible for keeping the engineer alert and in compliance with rules/law.

@@sturmovik1274 my brother is an Amtrak engineer, says the same thing that the conductor is in charge of the train, never knew that

There's a thing called a 'Form B" that both the engineer and the conductor on this train should have known about before beginning work. It's essentially a form establishing working limits for track workers/crews. They should have also had physical protection up such as red/yellow board warning the train crew to stop as well as portable derails set in place which do exactly that-derail the train before it can reach the workers. If there's a switch between them, that would be lined and locked as well to keep the train out of their work zone.

Per the NTSB report: -The work crew thought they were protected by track authority. However, since they were on/fouling other-than-main, they were only protected by yard-limit rules. The report didn't say how that misunderstanding occurred. -At the time of the accident, the work crew had completed work at that location and had removed their portable derails before removing their equipment. -The engineer, at least, was working his second train of the day. On starting his tour he had been given bulletins for the accident territory. These bulletins, about 8 hours old at the time of the accident, did not mention any work in that area. The report did not mention whether he received new bulletins when he got on the second train. -Another commenter says the work crew had removed devices which should have given 25 seconds warning of an approaching train, but the NTSB report doesn't mention any such devices.@@po9318

Maybe he/she was in the can?

I'd say they were a welding crew or similar and he was following up dousing any potential spot fires?? He crashed into the gang because he was on his phone. Was probably supposed to be following at a distance.

Notice how he was described as "former" train driver. He was fired right away, the train company's name was never mentioned. The track should have been closed, you are absolutely right. Freeway repairs always have a CHP car, with lights on to warn drivers, but having an extra pair of eyes a mile up the track would mean the unnamed train company would have to PAY FOR IT. A worker paid with his life, the the driver goes to prison. Shit rolls downhill & Greed kills again.

True. The driver SHOULDNT have been on the phone but the OTHER breaches of safety should be pointed at the management who allowed this BS accident to happen?? Was the driver even told of the work ahead?? Cmon NSTB!!! You can do BETTER than this!!

Exactly! And not a single question from the "newsboys".

​@aw8079 you can tell by the color of said engine it was ether a cp or cn train.

What do you mean?

@@eliyahtherailfanner131 Meaning thathengineer should have received Track Notices abouthe maintenance and location. Also,ften a yellow *[__]* sign a certain distance (1/2 mile?) before the work area so that train could be gradually slowed and be able to stop or continue at 5 mph through the work zone.

@@robertgift Was it stated somewhere that there was no signs along the way? He didn't hit the brakes until after contact with the backhoe, so he obviously wasn't paying attention.

@@soleinspector5511 When the mee-mool lights *(o)T(o)* started operating, they knew thathey had 25 seconds before train arrival. Ample time to gethe backhoe out ofoul.

Per the NTSB report: -The contractors believed they were protected by track authority (meaning the dispatcher would have known about them and advised all trains); however, since they were working on other-than-main track, they were only protected by yard-limit rules (meaning a general speed limit of 20 mph or less; the train was doing 19 at impact). The report didn't say how that misunderstanding occurred. -The contractors had finished their work at that location, and had removed their portable derails before clearing their equipment. -The engineer's daily bulletin, about 7 hours old, did not list any work at that location -The engineer was ultimately at fault.

Not all tracks get taken out of service when being worked on And the fact is that if he had been following the rules, it wouldn't have happened. Playing on his phone instead of controlling the train. He was speeding as well...... Absolutely his fault. His job isn't that hard, and the average starting salary for a train engineer is around $70,000. No telling what he was making, but they have automatic raises. But whatever his pay, it was more than enough for him to keep his ass off the phone.

the ntsb must have a report of this accident by now.

No RR flagman, I wouldn't doubt. I heard a private outside contractor, not MOW

Irrelevant and immaterial. As the Operator, he is responsible. This is why, as a Private First Class driving a General, I had the balls to tell the General, "Sir, with all due respect, I was not ASKING you to put on your seat belt." The General smiled, put on his seat belt, and told my Company Commander (Who was sweating bullets), "I like this one. He's my driver for the next four months." With Great Momentum comes Great Responsibility.

@@TimeSurfer206 Hey that's a good one, I like that. I may just have to steal that Spiderman momentum line from you!

@@TimeSurfer206 Found the lying loser.

Diana, that one letter you sent here in the mail. I looked at the post date on the envelope. I mentioned it to you that I would be very surprised if something did not happen. That was because I was very much expecting something to happen and what I was expecting had been voiced and spoken about in detail. And what happened later matched 100%, what had been voiced. By the time you got that letter, it had already been established for months that my train would be derailed in Ireland. And how did I know that? This is how. I found out they were going to derail my train. That there would be horrible Carnage and mutilation and dismemberment. I knew that the front of the train would be the most severely damaged. I knew that I would be knocked around but I would come out of it okay. Just after getting this knowledge, and this was when I was in my room in the barracks in Frankfurt Germany, my roommate, Jimmy Rowe, walks in. Okay so I told him that I was going on a eurail trip that summer and that they were going to derail my train. I gave him all the information as you read above. at first he said it was impossible for me to know that. He said it was crazy. He said it sounded paranoid. I told him paranoia had nothing to do with it. It was really going to happen. He asked me if I had told this to anyone else? I told him no I had not. He advised me not to mention this to anybody. He said they would think I was crazy. He asked if I was trying to get a section 8 discharge out of the army. Why would I have done that? I joined the army so I could travel and live in Europe. There I was doing what I wanted to do. Anyway I asked him to do this. I said I know this is going to happen. Just give me some advice and talk to me as though you know that it's going to happen. And guess what, he actually did that. He asked when is it going to happen? I said I don't know only that it will happen when I am there for it to happen. He asked me where will it happen? I told him I do not know that either but only to say that it will happen at the location where I am. After that he asked me where I planned to go on this eurail trip. I told him mainly to Ireland and Rome and Italy. So Jimmy Rose started talking about various incidents that had happened around the continent Continental Europe. Then he started talking about Ireland. He mentioned there had been several suspicious incidents in Ireland. You know what he told me? He said I don't think that you could possibly know anything like this, but, in my opinion if it happens anywhere it will be in Ireland. Jimmy Rowe told me that. I said the same thing. It will happen in Ireland. What was the date of this conversation? The year for 100% sure was 1980. It might have been in the month of April or May. Right at the end of July in 1980 I went on official leave from the army in Frankfurt Germany. I had a backpack. Took the train to Brussels where I spent the night in the hostel. Next day took the train to North coastal France where I caught the overnight ferry to Ross lair harbor on Southeast coastal Ireland. Rossler harbor is just North of old kinsale head and it was off old kinsale head where German u-boats torpedoed the passenger ship Lusitania. From rossler harbor I took the train North to Dublin. Spent a day or two there. Two women from Australia, Claire Lawrence and Enid Pasco, and I took the bus one morning to the main train station in Dublin. On the way to the train station I told them to sit as far to the rear of the train as possible with their backs to the direction of travel. I told them something bad could happen. I think they left it off at first. I told him two or three times to do what I told him that it's not a joke. We got our tickets. Starting from the very rear of the train, I walked forward looking in each window. The first place I saw where I could sit with my back to the direction of travel, I went in and sat there. Ain't it and clear set further to the rear and whether they took my advice or not they would be okay because they were far enough to the rear. We left the station sometime around 10:00 a.m. on August 1st 1980. Approximately two and a half hours later I'm not sure of the time, they derailed the train. By far most of the damage was done to the front of the train. People were horribly mutilated, bodies cut in half, people dismembered, contused over every inch of their bodies, horribly disfigured and profoundly disabled for life. Killed 18 people and injured 70. I was thrown back with enough force that my body tore two sets of steel-bolted train seats right up out of the floor and smashed a steel bolted table flat. I managed to dig myself out of the rubble under which I was partially encased. I got a small group to go into the wreckage and help people in any way they could like treatment for short and stopping bleeding. I got specific help for a young woman I saw in the wreckage. Her left leg was chopped off just below the knee and she was in very bad conditions otherwise. They awarded me the army commendation medal for that. It was supposed to be the soldiers medal which, they say, is the highest metal that can be awarded in peacetime not facing an enemy Force. But that's okay. I did not join the army to get medals. I did not want a medal. I only wanted to travel and live in Europe. Claire and Enid walked up into this town of Buttervent. They saw a man there and told him what I had told them in the bus on the way to the train station. He took them in his vehicle to his house just north of the town. He left them there with his wife. He went back to the Civic center in that town. Later I showed up there. He approached me and asked me who I was and when we established yes I'm John Shaw. He told me Claire and Enid or at his house and he invited me to go there. Okay so I have to get in a train wreck before I get an invitation in Ireland but I figured well what the hell I am here so I told him yes. So we got in his car and went to Velvet town house just north of this town of buttevant. He asked a series of very pointed specific questions. I will tell you what he asked me. Are you a member of any terrorist organization? Have you ever been a member? Do you know anyone who is in a any terrorist organization? Did you know anything about what happened today? Did anybody tell you that this would happen? Have you ever heard of the Irish Republican army? Do you know anybody in the Irish Republican army? Do you know anyone who has had any contact with the Irish Republican army or any terrorist organization? I answered no to everything. I answered no. The fact is the truth would have been yes. I mean, how do you think I knew this was going to happen to begin with? Divine intervention? I just denied everything. Just because you know something it doesn't mean that you have to tell it. Somebody might be asking questions and that's okay. You do not have to answer those questions and you do not have to give them information and that's okay too.

Per the NTSB report, there was a misunderstanding about protection. The contractors thought they had the kind of protection you describe. However, because the track was technically not a main line, they did not. They were only protected by a generic, universal rule that is common to all railyards that requires trains to move slowly enough that they can be stopped within half the range of vision.

Thats why portable derails are used on non controlled track to make the work limits inaccessible.

Also per the NTSB, the contractors had finished work at that location and had removed their portable derails before clearing their equipment.@@donaldt7764

There is a reason why it’s said that safety rules are written in blood. This is one.

So the next time you see a drunk on the road are you going to rear end them so you get a new car, claiming it's all their fault? Asking for a friend...

*you're (x2...)

YOU'RE

It is apparent you have zero knowledge of train operations. There generally is not trains running on tracks with maintenance crews. That track would be shut down. Also a conductor and engineer would be on a train.

50/50 fault

@@KnoxvilleRailfanProductions Zero fault.

@@Look_What_You_Did 50/50. The engineer was on the phone which is not allowed.

Trains run on tracks being worked on all the time. Even more with PSR nowadays

They said he was speeding, I'll use an example, let's say the work crew knew a train was on its way and it would arrive in an hour, but with him speeding he reached them in 30min.

I would say that Camera pointed to the view outside of the cab that captures what a train crew sees from their Cabs should be established. The lead Engine of a train should be face the primary direction of the train. It is why when see lot of trains consist the last following Engine faces the rear, so if and when they make a return trip, the new lead Engine is facing the correct direction. Just common sense.

​@@abbottshaull9831they already had outward facing cameras for grade crossing incidents and so on.

Safety device?

Yes, but many Trains are/were only manned with Engineer. When no Conductor was deemed required for the train to operate, you lose that valuable back up safety measure to make sure the train operates in safe matter at all times.

@@abbottshaull9831 The conductor acts as another set of eyes when the train is moving, as they always have, the point is that if 1 person gets distracted, falls asleep, or worse, has a medical emergency, you still have someone onboard that can still apply the emergency brake and contact dispatch.

This occurred within yard limits. Conductor is seldom on the head end. Movement at restricted speed- able to stop in 1/2 the range of vision.

Some Railroads stopped using torpedoes years ago.

@@gregfranklin1024 Would have prevented this incident.

I worked for the BNSF as a Engineer. They got rid of torpedoes years ago.

I work for CSX. We still use torpedoes but only in Detroit to keep people out of the yards.

@@viktorakhmedov3442 Interesting, thanks.

He wasn't supposed to be on his phone, regardless. That's what got him charged.

@@LittkeTM That should get him fired, not charged with manslaughter.

@@stuwest3653 The government makes it very clear that it's manslaughter.

So if he was told “tracks are clear” all the way to his destination then he’s not required to look out the front windows to monitor track conditions because he was told they’re clear ? If he hits anything before his destination then it isn’t his fault because he was told “tracks are clear” ? You know that doesn’t make sense. He should have been monitoring track conditions the whole time regardless if tracks are supposed to be clear or not.

@@mouser485 A person driving a car while on the phone is not at fault if someone runs a red light and hits them. Negligence has degrees of severity.

World is to brutal now to look at it. Good luck with that.

Per the NTSB report, there was a misunderstanding about protection. The contractors thought they had the kind of protection you describe. However, because the track was technically not a main line, they did not. They were only protected by a generic, universal rule that is common to all railyards that requires trains to move slowly enough that they can be stopped within half the range of vision.

Doesn't matter now that they have him on camera looking at his phone. He's done.

​@firepower782 That does matter if the engineer wasn't made aware. Had he seen the crew, who's to say he could've stopped the train in time. Also, trains hitting track crews have happened several times.

@sirblack1619 yeah ik but most times engineers are informed,l about what's ahead, he couldn't have stopped the train tho as close as he was

@@sirblack1619 May have happened several times, but not with the Engineer caught on camera looking at his phone. That's immediate termination and criminal charges. If it was a mistake or an accident that's one thing, caught looking at your phone that's not an accident, you're fucked. And he is.

Per the NTSB report, he was not notified in the formal documentation given to him when he came on duty, as would have been usual procedure.

The track main track in yard limits. No derails on main track. No yardmaster/ control operator at this yard. Operated by a shortline.

Per the NTSB report, there was a misunderstanding about protection. The contractors thought they had the kind of protection you describe. However, because the track was not a main line, they did not. They were only protected by yard-limits rules. They had portable derails, but removed them on completion of their work before clearing their equipment. The engineer's bulletins did not mention any work or restrictions at that location, which the NTSB cited as a contributing factor.

reminds me of the time while going track speed in the yard here 5mph this woman walked out from a sitting boxcars bout few car lengths from the one coming in looked up at the train smiled waved then laid herself across the tracks the engineer applied the brakes but so close still took 5 car lengths to come to a stop i had to ask wht the engineer was looking so gaunt that night

My thoughts exactly, just like there always had been. Otherwise railroads are going to have to fork out a lot of money on many lawsuits like this. No two man crew for a system of corrections and balances (it worked great before), and you are going to be walking a thin line

Doesn't show the conductors reaction....either was sleeping or not paying attention

I retired from the railroad there big guy! I am fully aware were the conductor sits....

Some RR's have the conductor drive a route along the tracks, and where there is switching to be done,will park/ meet the train. But then the engineer is alone till the next stop.

@@user-mr3ct1dm9p I did that at Illinois Railnet. It's done with short lines, either restricted speed or exempt track. The conductor must not be more then a mile from the train at all times. Class 1s and regionals must have conductor aboard

The govt ruled a few weeks ago. 2 person crews will remain required for OTR trains.

Under certain situations one man can be used. Don't worry the carriers will win...they always do.​@@kirk1618

Wow... got another sharp one here. Otay junior. Where is this alleged notification? Where is the alleged signalling?

@@Look_What_You_Did Your KZfaq name and way you responded to my comment is rather peculiar. However, give me a minute to find my GCOR book (the book provided by the federal government for railroad operating standards in North America) it's been a while, and I'll quote the rule on here.

They might not have been using a Form B. Track warrant?

@@Look_What_You_DidYou don’t have a clue. 😂

The MOW crew was working on track that was in Restricted Limits, meaning a speed that will permit stopping within one-half the range of vision, but not exceeding 20 miles per hour. From his union's own website: "When restricted speed is required, the warning should bring one out of your seat - make the hair on the back of your neck stand - because that is how dangerous the situation is at that point." "When speed is restricted, engineers and conductors must insist that each other drop all other activities, remain vigilant and attentive at the task at hand."

Not likely with the noise their equipment makes and the hearing protection they wear for that noise.

ok boomer

“Banded”

This was in yard limits. Outside of PTC.

Trains don't "swerve" the tracks led straight towards the contractors, the train was on the same line as the contractors, there wasn't any other track for the train to be on.

Swerved for the contractors? I’m not sure how to respond to this without sounding condescending.

You two don't get it... So explain to the world how an engineer was to stop this. If they can't swerve to hit somebody... sure AF can't swerve to avoid somebody... So how is the engineer responsible?

@@Look_What_You_Did ya I know some people have a little knowledge but cannot connect the dots

@@Look_What_You_Did I never said he was responsible. But, he is responsible. He was on his phone and not paying attention to signal lights on the tracks. It’s a federal law that you can’t use your phone while operating a train. If you are texting and driving and slam into the back of someone it’s your fault. Im sorry but I don’t see how we are the ones who don’t understand.

It should have been mentioned in the job briefing for the crew, but wasn't. The accident itself happened inside yard limits and the track wasn't governed by a dispatcher. However, he shouldn't have been using his phone while on duty, which did play into this since he was exceeding the speed limit which would have allowed him to stop in time. He is definitely at fault, however the work should have been noted in the job briefing, there should have been some sort of red board set up (there was a derail, however it was removed and not replaced by the truck operator). And optimally there should have also been a flagger.

@Maine_Railfan Ah I see. Thanks for all the info and you helped clear everything up. I agree that in the end he is definitely at fault cause the fail safe would've been if he was doing his job properly it never happens. I just kind of feel for the guy as he goes 99.9% of the time looking at your phone never results in anything bad happening but now he's looking at hard time and killed a man who I also feel horrible for. I'm not excusing him in any way but just is a sad situation all round and just shows how quick 2 people's life can change in an instance when you're not paying attention. Thanks again 🍻 from RI

Speed limit on that stretch of track was only 10 mph. Should have been able to stop within a few hundred feet.

Per the NTSB report, there was a misunderstanding about protection. The contractors thought they had the kind of protection you describe. However, because the track was technically not a main line, they did not. They were only protected by a generic, universal rule that is common to all railyards that requires trains to move slowly enough that they can be stopped within half the range of vision.