As a casual player, I’m excited for this. Heroics have been dead content for years, and getting groups for low keys can be difficult the longer the season goes on.

Someone please let Preach know you can do 4 Mythic dungeons weekly quest in M+ you don't have to go into M0 for that.

There is an interesting benefit to this system. Since under this new system, the third affix comes in at a 10 (20 in season 3) and the mythic track items in the vault start at an 8 (18 in S3) it does make getting mythic track slots easier, since for example, say all you want is slots and its tyran volcanic sanguine week. If all you want is a chill week to fish for mythic track items, doing a 8 or 9 with only tyran volcanic sounds a lot more appealing than doing the 10 with sanguine. Especially since all the obnoxious on death affixs (Bolstering, Spiteful, etc) are on that slot that will now come in at 10 (20).

New M0 (old M+10) without timer, affixes and able to change spec or replace someone who just decides to quit the run is an AMAZING change

I love dungeons. I HATE how M+ work and how manditory they are made out to be if I want to at all be competitive or not feel like I'm holding everyone back. The affixes just aren't fun at all compared to a dungeon having mechanics specifically designed for it. Affixes end up adding more tedium rather then fun that don't at all fit with the fight. I'd much rather a mechanic that fits the fight where it can be designed in a way to add difficulty while being carefully designed to allow it to be fun while hard.

if you are someone doing +25 currently, all this means is that your keys will now just be +15, but for casuals this seems like a good change since you actually get a more challenging dungeon experience without the timer (if blizzard can actually tune it correctly).

The biggest issue with M+ is the key losing a level if you don't time the run. This is very punishing and it's the main reason behind extremely strict player vetting in premade group finder. Normally if you lose you just go again. Not here, you have to do another run and actually time it too to get your key back to where you were initially. They should just make it keep current level if you finish the dungeon regardless of timer. Lose a level if the dungeon isn't finished at all.

Having friends both ends of the spectrum for this is amazing. One friend is pissed cause he will look shit when completing his 15 (25) xD. While another is happy that they actually get to become a better player without the stress of the time. I like these changes myself, being around the current 25 mark, just the difference between a 5 and 15 and that number must be so overwhelming for some players and will be happy too see more people enter the M+ part of the end game. If it all goes well, will make that content very healthy and strong

The tradeoff though is that we get less opportunity to earn "bonus" flightstones. We have 10 less difficulties that would normally earn an alt easy "bonus" flightstones at the end of the dungeon. You also can no longer farm lower content that might be more appropriate for your alt since M0 still has a weekly lockout while being the difficulty of roughly a +10. Again, less flightstones (and gear).

Key depletion is the biggest L in M+

TBH the casual players who this is for won't write on the forum. I think it's overall a great change. Though I don't like that there's a loot lockout for M+0. I normally play at like M+7 (very casual compared to most active players I know). Removing the timer stress and affixes will probably make the new Mythic Dungeons perfect for me. But being loot locked where M+ runners aren't (I know they need to find a key, but how difficult is that really?) is a tiny feelbad.

I died laughing at the lower numbers bit as my GM was saying how he's going to miss seeing that he completed 26's and what not lol

I play WoW pretty casually and I've always just wanted to queue into low mythics. Having to deal with applying for groups and actually going to the dungeon entrance is a big barrier when I could just go do something else.

As a long time WoW casual player, only recently dipping into M+, I am both excited and terrified of this. I am worried that with the early levels of M+ being much harder the community will be more toxic and exclusionary than it already is. But as an M+ noob right now I can generally get into around +2s-4s without much issue to learn and start getting gear, but I'm skeptical that this will keep me from having that place to learn and get gear.

Now they need to remove keys reducing in level when missing the timer and give a key for each dungeon so you can target farm the dungeon you want.

so basically instead of having to deal with 3 affixes in the adventure to get KSM, now you only have to deal with 2. maybe not even that, if you do 4's across the board that might get you to the rating requirement.

They might need to scale it back from M10 as the 'base M0' now. Because even without affixes and timer, the jump will still make it too much for many and I doubt people will just waste over an hour on them if they can't do it. I mean, the gear catch-up will be worse I think since the new M0 will be weekly locked. And the new Heroic being the old M0...dunno how they will balance the scaling and make it so the gear you get from there will allow you do step up 10 to the new M0. That means in the old system, you would be doing an M10 with M0 gear. Of course , no timer and affixes help mitigate it but if you can't kill it, it doesn't matter how long it takes, you just can't. Won't matter much to anyone already doing above 10+s easily aside from lower key numbers.

I don’t think this change affects anything but heroic in a meaningful way. 1. The timer is still in mythic + so people are still not gonna try it 2. Mythic zero now being a m10 without the timer is going to screw over the majority of the people preach showed are usually stuck around a 7. There’s no timer or affix, but people are still abandon happy at one wipe. 3. The floor for m+ being high means that even people that comfortably can do a 10 will probably start struggling around a 5 which will feel bad cause people are like that. 4. The higher floor is going to make the absurd “requirements” to get into a group worse. People should really just make their own group but we know they won’t. This just seems like a terrible, poorly thought out change. It’s good for people like me and Mike because we are skilled and played that game for more than a decade. Everyone else is screwed.

Its not just about how a timer affects the player, its also how a timer affects the game design, changing the toxicity level of a PUG run when tryhards take a timer (even one tuned very gracefully) so completely seriously and get upset at the other people in the PUG. As a casual who ran heroic dungeons with guildmates until mythic+ dungeons appeared (and how heroic dungeons were downgraded in difficulty to be the ~ same as normal), I'm really looking forward to this change, and may actually return to WoW for season 4.

I quit because of the M+ system because the timer enforces toxic play and because at the time BIS came from m+ not raiding it fucking annoyed me and killed my interested in Endgame in BFA. This change is nice but waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to fucking late, like 6 years to late. I think there will be a large number of people still not engaging in the content after this change simply due to bad taste from the whole system.

as a casual player i like the idea of having a reason to do heroic and trying mythic 0

What I think they should do it have a timed & untimed varient of M+. You have a ranking for both of them during the season. HOWEVER, your untimed rank will always be equivalent to your M+ rank unless you have completed a higher untimed key. This would allow players who want to commit 2 hours to finishing a +40 dungeon or whatever to have that track to go down while the timed M+ playerbase can still progress in the season without feeling left behind.

The problem was never the timer. The problem has always been the deplete mechanic, that's why m+ is toxic, that's why people don't wanna make their own keys. Affixes are not fun for the most part, and affixes can be fixed, but they are damaging in the way that the deplete is. Unlike affixes the deplete cannot be fixed, it can only be removed, and not be replaced with anything else. If you fail a key, the key remains the same level, if you wanna downgrade we already have a mechanic for it.

Blizzard is not removing the timer from M+. They are moving the difficulty up. M+ still will have a timer.

Im currently doing low level keys on my shaman. I struggle in m+ and im just finding my feet, and tbh having a great time, but trying to find low (10 and below) keys is a CHORE.

I don't do M+ not because there's a timer, but just because it's the same dungeons over again but harder. that's it. they just cranked the difficulty but didn't change the dungeon, and that's boring

I find the reason m0 is so annoying to do is because if how trivial it is. So i think doing m0 in s4 is gonna be much better. Is rather do m0 with no timer or affixes than a current +10 if they are equally scaled. Also going to be much nicer for catchup

Hopefully this also gives players who are hesitant to heal or tank an opportunity/confidence to try it out in M0 and then into m+

I really like this change. I'd love if there was a (new) +10 (so old +20) no timer (but still affix) difficulty that gave less powerful loot than the timed version.

As someone who has never gone past like M+11 back in BFA I don’t know if I should be scared or excited for next expansion M+

Yeah, these all seem like really positive changes, and I say that as someone who likes the timed nature of m+ (because it encourages players to take risks and keeps things exciting). This makes dungeons relevant to more people and gives players more ways to have fun, and even if I'm not interacting with this all that often I'm pretty sure I'll see downstream benefits.

The world is calling forum man. The world Needs him

correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't there still timers? just not with mythic 0? 1-10 still has timers? if so then other then it being 1-10 and not 1-20, what is the difference? the afixes are different, but the timeritself isn't? Again, I don't understand why everyone is saying goodbye timer when it's just for the first key? It's still there after 0 which means you can still loose your key and or have it degraded if you don't meet the requirement of the timer. .... right? so the core problem people had still exists?

18:47 I might be wrong in the end, but this is exactly what I think is gonna happen. People SAY they don't like M+ because of timers , when in fact what they don't want to deal with in the current paradigm of M+ is to have to sign up because they take the rejections too personally, or their social anxiety makes the prospect of being judged by other people a huge fucking overblown hurdle. What they want, I suspect, is M0-M+ random dungeon finder without the timer.

What I wonder is why did they not test queuing m+ with the m0 change? People have been asking solo queue for a few expansions and with this change they could have tested it in the new m0 whiteout messing with m+ ratings. What I'm afraid is that since my 460 alt druid dosnt get into m+9 nine now because "under-geared" even-though my main times 25's then I can imagine that queuing to m0 could turn the same way. I also wonder is the gearing bottleneck really the normal raids. normal raid and m0 will now have a weekly loot lock, below and up you can spam for gear - so the ability to gear up to heroic raid by spamming low keys is now essentially gone. I have a guild, raid group and push group so for me it will not be very different but for a lot of my friends whose schedules do not fit with raiding or who are more civilian, this has been the way to gear now. So just pondering why there is a loot lockout in the m0 at all?

This could be a good change or it could backfire heavily depending on how difficult the new M+0 is. If players struggled with the early M+ before purely due to player skill regardless of the timer imagen them now having to jump directly from the new Heroic (current M+0) into the new M+0 (current M+10). If the timer was the only thing holding ppl back from doing M+ then atleast this change could bring those ppl into the M+ runs. However if it was a player skill issue this could instead force players that could not even reach the current M+10 out of the M+ scene entierly as that will now be the starting point in all M+ runs. A player that could not do M+10 could easily read these changes and think that okey now i´m being forced out of M+ down into Heroic becouse they couldent even reach M+10 before these changes. 25:00 I loved the pre-nerf Cata heroics becouse u couldent just face tank every trash pack and u actually hade to use your groups CC or some trash packs could be more dangerous then the bosses. Even after the dungeons nerf players still used CC markers on the really dangerous trash mobs and the only ppl that was complaining were the wannabe elitists that refuced to use CC. Yes the dungeons were a step up from Wrath but if the party used CC they really werent that bad.

I'm sorry but i love the 4 m0s for heroic, and 5 TW for normal, helps me gear up alts faster.

my only problem with the changes is that they arent changing the amount of crest you get on alts. nothing rly feels worse than being exited to try a new class and then get hit by the wall of "you have to grind 900 crest 12 at a time now"

I feel like this won't solve any problems at all, just displace them. People at the top end won't notice any difference whatsoever except for that the number will go down. People who currently aren't into m+ won't get in to it with these changes. The only people this will affect are the people who are currently struggling with the lowest levels of m+ which are the people that don't raid regularly with a guild even at the "normal" level and only do LFR once in a while when they feel like it and most likely gets carried through it when they bother with it. The kind of people who only plays WoW because they don't know what else to do to relax after work.

I'm one of those who are stressed out because of timers. At least in WoW. Even if that timer is generous, it still reinforces that "go go go" mentality.

I feel the same, but I don't want to raid. I can't be asked for the time commitment and running and mob clearing and consumables anymore. I'm not 15 anymore.

Also, does anyone know if there is a reason they didn't move forward with streaming on KZfaq as well as Twitch? I'd love to watch his stream when I'm at work where Twitch is blocked but KZfaq isn't.

I am still trying to work out if this will benefit me or not. I have no friends, really, to play WoW with in my time zone (late night PST)... I log in solo and do what I can... Often, as I approach that 2k M+ rating mark, I start to find it near impossible to get a score upgrade, so I hit a wall in progression. While I would like to maybe find a guild for next expansion, but I often just don't want to deal with the drama, cliques, etc. So who knows.

As a former mythic raider with several cutting edge, key depletion and the timer are the reasons I do the bare minimum for M+ gearing. That mechanic is unfun.

I'm one of those "there's a timer so i'm not doing it" people mentioned. Would've liked to have seen them change the progression to timer being introduced after the affixes so I can understand the mechanics before throwing a timer at me. so basically, this changed nothing for me.

Im looking forward to these changes. Although i think lockouts should go away and take out Key Depletion upon not finishing in time

This doesnt really change things for casual players like myself, it just moves the numbers. I dont do m+ because of the timer so my gearing stops at M0 either way. I have no progression or higher difficulty to push. Yes, the M0 is harder and thats great but once I beat it im done. They need to allow timeless keys and affixes so those of us who want a slower.pace can still progress to something.

So the key stills depletes when you fail? I have zero problems with failure, but I do have problems when I can't try again right away. "oh but you have to be punished for failing." I'm pretty sure wasting my time on something that I have to pay monthly to play, is already punishment enough.

This year I decided to push myself and try Mythic+ for the first time. I got all the KSM and I've gotten as high as 19 (so far) on season 3. As a casual player, what put me off Mythic+ was not thinking I'd be good enough to play in those dungeons. I always thought they were more for better/elite players and I've always heard about how toxic the dungeons can be. And they can be, at first, especially if you don't know what you're doing or don't know mechanics. Or even if you do but it's been a while, it can be bad. But the higher the key you go, it's weird how less the toxicity is. I'm enjoying it enough I'm going to continue, though I regret now that I didn't try this earlier (would have loved the SL mounts) Same with raids though too; I've tried Heroic this expansion too. But I'm looking forward to this change.

Hoped they would have gone further and just removed the timer from M+ entirely, while reinstating the old challenge mode dungeons for timer junkies. But this is a big step in the right direction regardless!

Seriously Preach some people just cant get what Blizz is doing. They seriously don't understand that a M+ 10 is now M 0 and to understand the new system is to just subtract 10 from what you were doing before. So if you were constantly farming M+ 20 now u will be farming M+ 10 next patch. SO EASY TO UNDERSTAND and is really great for the game.

I absolutely hate the timer in M+, but it's not because its existence stresses me out. I hate the timer because of how it entices you to make skips. I fucking detest skips with a passion. I don't want to spend a single second of my time to learn what skips there are, and I hate how people treat me when I don't know all the skips, EVEN when I'm not running M+. I also don't play a heroic combat based MMORPG to avoid enemies. I like pulling a bunch of baddies and AoEing them down. If M0 in S4 is going to yield 493 loot and it's not going to be inferior to running LFR then I'll run the heck out of it.

I noticed I had CC turned on as i watched this and saw that they were so horrendously out of sync and delayed compared to the conversation taking place and I wonder if anybody else who uses CC also noticed that. The subtitles are only just now catching up to Preach's confusion about KZfaq subscriptions at 25 mins in lol

The change is not bold enough. Every +1 should be half of the difference between the new Heroic and M0. Do away with dungeon wide affixes. For new dungeons, reduce some spells/abilities from trash and bosses. At certain + levels give trash/bosses additional abilities. On the first level these appear make them somewhat weak but noticeable (lesser damage relativ to scale, less debuff duration) at the next + level full scaling/durations. Timer + 100%, maybe add a soft death cap. So at 5 and 10 deaths rewards are reduced ( 1 less ), for every 3 deaths afterwards 3ilvl less on the last piece of gear. Or some other fail state, but I can't think of one.

Do you still need to key 7+ high level keys for max rewards?

This doesn't change anything regarding numbers and gear though....Comparing the gear to the system vs now does nothing. The truth is the dungeons and raids will just re-balance around the new common gear level. the new M10+ gear will literally just replace and become what M0 is now. it achieves nothing

I personally am glad to see the timer gone. I sort of wish the M0 still used the weekly affixes so people could have a way to interact with those and not be on a timer. Part of the point on some of these is only really being able to learn those affixes on a clock. I don't know, I've never been a fan of the timer, to me it always reeked of the e-sportisification of the game.

M+ is my fav hard endgame content. I don't hate the existence of a timer in it. I hate the fact that it's tied to loot in any way. I preffer a timer as a part of a challenge and achievement goal for a player. Tying the dungeon tp and moutn rewards to the timer challenge is perfect. Just don't tie it up to loot :(

I think that the WoW playerbase engaged enough to post on WoW forums will literally always be unhappy no matter what they do with the game.

this is logistics and system improvements mainly targeted at the broad audience and making m+ more approachable. Pretty good for accessibility and overall a better experience for all players in terms of progression. Post doesn't bring up anything about improvements to actual gameplay in dungeons which i and many have been hoping for which is sad, but doesn't take away these are good changes

This is the problem with Mythic+ in general it shouldn't exist really it is far too elitist and based around a Meta even if some one is an exceptional player if they aren't the right class, spec or are missing a Legendary then you don't get invited to M+ so much for an inclusive MMO.

Casual players don't want to have to form groups, that's the real problem here.

No timer, no affixes. That's gonna be way "easier" than doing a M+10. And it's the same on the top end. A M+18 has 3 affixes, a M+8 will only have 2. I think there's room to make M0 and M+ in general just a little bit more difficult. Given most people just wanna complete their weeklies and get their loot in the vault, maybe it's okay if +9s and +10s get more difficult and become content that people strive to complete for longer within a patch cycle.

I think people are indifferent because this is literally no change to anything past M0 which nobody does anyways. So, past the first week of a season this is actually no change at all.

I wonder how it will feel going from heroic to M0.. Is it too big of a gear cap..

So people who run low level m+ for fun / to progress their character over and over can't do that anymore because there is a dungeon lockout.

Mythic plus degenerate here. goated change. The scaling of myfhic plus is so fucking wonky that it causes people to hit massive walls circa +13, and +16, because thats when the relative numbers start kicking into a scaling speeds that is different than what was previously there, and this is not clearly explained to new players. so suddenly their progress is slowed down a ton, which causes those ranks to become stupidly toxic because nobody knows WTF is going on. its pretty bad that i had an easier time healing +24's than +17 with Randoms this season. making mythic plus actually start at the higher scaling levels, and making base mythic dungeons +0's will actually teach people, "yo you gotta actually learn the dungeon."

The only problem would probably be that casual who were only doing +2 - +9 lost a way to gear as m0 is weekly locked i assume? not sure if there was a community like that

This change is a total cook

To answer preaches question about number squish and people being mad: Yes, yes they will be.

It boggles my mind the mental gymnastics people on the forums and even on the comments of this video go through to put a negative. spin on these changes

When people say 1-10 skip will be too hard I think they’re forgetting that there will be no tyran or fort either. So there’s an inherent nerf to the whole dungeon.. one pack at a time and weak bosses should be alright imo

My favorite part is how this whole video, Preach still hasn't comprehended that all this change is about is the season 4 adding 39 more item levels and increasing the item levels in level 70 dungeons lol. They aren't removing the timer. It isn't becoming more accessible to casuals, it's just giving them a way to get more item levels through heroic dungeon queues. Like even his chat tried to correct him and he was like "no they are, see.. the timer only comes in on Mythic 2." yes... because there isn't a timer in zero, and +1 doesn't exist, Preach lol. Dungeons should stop at Mythic, and Raids should stop at Heroic. The Horrific Vision special talent system should be how progression through Mythic raiding and Mythic plus should exist. No gear drops. This stops: Item level bloat. Making multiple same toons to use the one who got the bis rng to go into raid. The armor stacking for trades. Instead the top players can deal with things that are finely tuned to heroic gear and just get straight into their grinds, gaining power through the content specific talent trees each week.

FFXIV: We want to make it less stress-free. WoW: We *need* to make it more stress-free.

Not touched dungeons for years, might start again

I tried to close that wowed ad multiple times rofl.

If I’m doing like 10+ keys nothing changed for me, just the number is lower, it only affects those who do lower keys, like ok, but if you actually playing the game s4 is just same old stuff without even new affix

WoW Forum goers really have the reading comprehension of a sea sponge.

I’m sorry if I missed something but, wether it’s now or in season 4, as long as you enter a M+, there is still a timer. So I don’t see the point…

You do realise the "Run 4 Mythics" Quest isn't to run 4 Mythic Zero's right? It's to run 4 Mythics, So you just do your regular Mythic Plus.

You're not wrong, I'm the tank for my raid group and they all know I absolutely refuse to do m+ because of the timer

I like this.

*Casual players dont read the forums?

Heroic dungeons have one key feature that M0 doesn't - it's the ability to avoid the utter bullshit that is group finder and the need to be meta for even low keys. If I use dungeon finder then I'm in the same pool of tanks, healers or dps as everyone else. WoW's group finder community is toxic and dungeon finder mitigates that somewhat.

A lot of the people that frequent WoW forums are actually smooth brains , I sympathize with the devs having to comb through most of that 😆

Your right the timer/fear of depleted keys make people paranoid, they policing each other raising up the skill and gear requirement because they fear top deplite their keys... Horrible system if you dont have friend or a good guild to do it with. It's a big part of why i left wow at the time since i feel i cant really progress my character without the mandatory M+.

casuals r gonna be pissed having M0 going from something faceroll to actually having to learn mechs

Also as to a later comment as to why do we sub: Because we like your content preach

RIP people trying to get M+ 15 legion weapon appearance after Season 4?

I suspect the reason why you didnt see more positivity, is those anti-timer people (like me) already left the game. Now if I get the MMO itch I just play FFXIV instead.

Pretty nice changes, I never liked timers yeah, so I skip those modes if I can. GR in D3 works better tho, since well way other combat & when u kill elites u get back lost time, & u also don't lose progress on failure. Reason you don't see a lot of good feedback on forums, is cause most of us have given up that place. It's like 90+% negative all the time, Good for Taliesin so he can keep his Shitshow section in Weekly Reset 🤣 Only time I travel to the forums now, is if I need to confirm if X is a bug or not.

The feedback section was hilarious lol even as a WoW player of over 15 years, I'm still surprised at just how dumb and jaded the average WoW forum poster is. A whole detailed post about a huge change to dungeons and it's just people complaining about random unrelated topics and not even understanding the main post. I feel bad for whatever Blizz employee has to comb through forum feedback for something worthwhile.

To be honest for the most part affixes and timers really don't add anything to the difficulty of a dungeon, difficulty usually comes from damage and mechanics, with affixes and timers just sprinkling frustration and anxiety to the experience. I'd say keep the scaling dungeons just remove timers and affixes completely. This should encourage people to persevere after a wipe rather than just leaving because "RIP Key" and the difficulty solely coming from damage and dungeon mechanics (as it should be). Will people do even higher keys because of these changes? Yes, but who really cares...

What i hate with wow is that to be able to raid you HAVE TO DO M+ to raid. I detest it. Yeah i can like m+ and try and push high for a week but needing to do like 8 m+ a week to maximize loot makes me hate it. I want them to split m+ gear from raiding gear. Make m+ gear 10 ilvls lower but have like a stat specific for m+ like agony resist in guildwars 2. That is sooo good

18:50 to be fair to those people M+ has been out for a long time and their just figuring this part out now. i hated timed dungeons since MoP

The problem is casual players don’t actually want to play the game part of the game. So a M0 being an M10 equivalent is just worse for them.

THANK GOD. I've been over M+ since the end of legion. I want TBC style dangerous dungeons where you can TAKE YOUR TIME and pull slow but feel rewarded. I don't want a 1 min pee break to ruin the run for the whole group. Now I can do M0's and get that TBC vibe. Every expansion they focus on M+ and for people like me it's like fml. I legit might come back over this since I typically just clear the new raid on normal, get some cosmetics I want for hte future and then uninstall since I don't care for the open world in DF tbh.

Exactly what we needed, sweatier retail WoW. The health of the game population will surely improve because because of this.

the extra time you take to run back and attempt the boss again is punishment enough. there is zero reason to have a timer. if they want some cosmetic rewards for completing dungeons on a timer, that's fine, but that should be completely optional regardless of what M+ level you are choosing to attempt.

So many casuals can't handle +10's. This will basically take them out of the M+game. I personally don't care but there is going to be 100's of thousands of players cut out of a major part of the game imo.