Measuring Common Mode Chokes - QSO Today Virtual Ham Expo, August 2021

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Mark Smith

Mark Smith

Күн бұрын

This is the presentation I gave at the QSO Today Virtual Ham Expo, August 2021.
Links to other, more Scientific, papers:
- Ward Silver, Nuts and Volts: www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/ar...
- Chuck Couselman, Common-Mode Chokes: www.yumpu.com/en/document/rea...
Original Description:
There's a lot of literature on designing 1:1 baluns (more accurately: common mode chokes) in ideal situations. But what about non-ideal builds? They're often too complex to model and predict. But we can build and measure them directly, with the NanoVNA.

Пікірлер: 18
@revbikerbigd8664
@revbikerbigd8664 6 ай бұрын
Thanks for explaining it very simply,we been discussing this at our clubhouse and never added the core to the 2x3 loops, will try 3x3 loops with cores !73s
@SmittyHalibut
@SmittyHalibut 6 ай бұрын
I hope it helps you! Report back if you see an improvement. 🙂
@M0NTVHomebrewing
@M0NTVHomebrewing 2 жыл бұрын
Brilliant Mark! Thank you. You always explain things so clearly. I'm definitely going to have a play with this stuff. 73 Nick M0NTV
@DucatiMTS1200
@DucatiMTS1200 Жыл бұрын
Just viewed your great video presentation Mark. Pity I had not viewed it earlier as I have had to discover your test technique by experimentation over the past few days! On the up side your video has validated my test setup discoveries and tells me I'm on the right track. So now I need to get a test rig constructed and I will pay further attention to the internal layout as you suggest, and especially because I'm headed towards the 2M / 70CM testing zone . 73 de GI8WFA 👍
@SmittyHalibut
@SmittyHalibut Жыл бұрын
Since recording that, I’ve made a test rig kit available: electronics.halibut.com/product/common-mode-current-choke-test-rig/ I’m not sure how good it’ll be at VHF and UHF, but it should work well enough at HF. For VHF and up, I’d made individual adaptors for each connector type, and keep all wire lengths as short as possible. I also wouldn’t bother with switching.
@dougbas3980
@dougbas3980 2 жыл бұрын
Very interesting and informative. The MFJ-915 is a straight line coax between the two UHF connectors with many ferrites strung on that length. I use these at the antenna. Now I need to add one between the commons of my 6x6 antenna switch so it will always be in line with my transceiver or linear. Right now I have a RF sampler tap to an oscilloscope in the common coax lead. They call the MF-915 an isolator. I think it can also be called a common mode choke. I wonder how it would compare in effectiveness to your double/three loop solution. Thank you for this information. 73 Doug N8VY😎
@SmittyHalibut
@SmittyHalibut 2 жыл бұрын
That method certainly works, but it’s effectiveness is linear with the number of beads you put on the coax. Wrapping coax around the toroid or coiling it, the effectiveness goes up with the square of the number of turns. This only means it takes a lot of ferrite material (read: cost) to have the same rejection. It still works the same. Having said that, the linear version doesn’t increase capacitance, so you don’t have the self resonance problem I mentioned in the video. That’s a benefit to doing it the way MFJ does it. Isolator vs choke: yeah, I think they’re basically the same. Assuming your description of the 915 is right (just a length of coax with ferrite beads on it), it’s a common mode current choke.
@JohnVK5JAK
@JohnVK5JAK 2 жыл бұрын
At about 25:00 minutes, you show a cable with two loops of 3 turns, each with a single clamp on ferrite. Would you get the same result with one loop of 3 turns, but placing the 2 clamp on ferrites on that single loop? And do three ferrite beads on a cable have the same result as 3 turns through a single ferrite?
@SmittyHalibut
@SmittyHalibut 2 жыл бұрын
Three turns, two clamp ons: It would not be exactly the same, no. I don't have measurement data at hand, but my memory was that two separate 3-turn loops, each with one clamp-on, provided better rejection than two clamp-ons on a single 3-turn loop. The clamp-ons increase the inductance of a loop without increasing the capacitance, which is good. But the loops are the root of the inductance; having two of them in series is better than having one. Three ferrites vs three turns through a single ferrite: These are VERY different. Adding ferrites to a cable is linear, but adding turns to a coil is geometric (goes up with the square of the number of turns.) Think of a single ferrite on a cable with no loops as a 1-turn inductor (which is what it actually is). When you put three ferrites on that cable in a line, that's three 1-turn inductors in series. When you put inductors in series, their inductance adds. So the inductance is i*n (i being the inductance of a 1-turn inductor, n being the number of ferrites). However, adding more turns to your inductor causes the inductance to go up with the SQUARE of the number of turns: i*(n^2). So, this is definitely a more efficient use of expensive ferrite material. There are draw-backs to adding more turns, however: 1) It is physically larger and possibly more awkward than just a straight linear string of beads on a cable. Stringing beads on the cable may be the more PHYSICALLY preferred solution. 2) As shown in the video, more turns also increases the mutual capacitance between turns, which makes the choke more resonant, and results in that very peak-y graph. So more turns is not always better. That's why I suggested sticking to three turns, and adding more inductors in series. Does that answer your questions?
@DM-fz3ly
@DM-fz3ly 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Mark, excellent! somewhere in the past I ran across a directive that when building an "ugly balun" (coiled coax) that it was better to make the coil such that the turns did not overlap. ie. that you should wind them on a pvc form so the turns don't overlap, and the reason was to minimize the inter turn capacitance. I wonder your (or other viewers) thoughts on this idea? I'll have to break out my nano vna and test it. Thanks for sharing 73, n7kbc
@SmittyHalibut
@SmittyHalibut 2 жыл бұрын
Yes, exactly that. My tests of the Gordian Knot chokes shows why you absolutely want to keep the turns from overlapping. I'm really bummed I didn't make a proper ugly-balun to include here. I actually had a slide at the end that I cut out because I didn't do it justice.
@IcePick.
@IcePick. 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the presentation, have you ever measured the LDG RU-1:1 Unun on your rig?
@SmittyHalibut
@SmittyHalibut 2 жыл бұрын
I have not! Halibut Electronics will start selling a test rig before too long (give me another couple months to finish getting the business setup). If you've got that Unun, I'd love for you to test it and post your results. :-)
@microflyer999
@microflyer999 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Mark, After hearing you talk about this on HRWB podcast I was intrigued to see more. I think seeing is believing when talking about chokes and baluns because often we are just told to wind turns on a ferrite but I need to see the proof !. This video has certainly gone a long way in helping my understanding of these devices. I hope to build this test jig in the future (just need to get the VNA 1st !). One small point. In the video I cannot see the link between the outer connectors of the VNA ports in the white box build. I assume it is there?
@SmittyHalibut
@SmittyHalibut 2 жыл бұрын
Also: thank you for the kind words! I’m glad you enjoyed the video and found it informative. :-)
@SmittyHalibut
@SmittyHalibut 2 жыл бұрын
Ignore the post I just deleted, I misunderstood your comment. You’re talking about the ground link between the two sides. Uhhh…. No, it’s not. Good catch. *blush* They are connected back at the VNA itself. So the current has a path. It’s just not the path I’d prefer it to take. The fact that I kept the jumpers between the VNA and test rig short May be what saves me here. But yeah, that’s not good. Thank you for catching that.
@microflyer999
@microflyer999 2 жыл бұрын
@@SmittyHalibut The pleasure is all mine. Good luck with 'secret squirrel'
@jampskan5690
@jampskan5690 2 жыл бұрын
Your test rig would be helpful for pre-made common mode current chokes, (and coax wrap style chokes, such as your 3 turn Gordian knot example). This guy does a more raw test rig that seems to be based on the same testing structure kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rNuoiK-g0tqmXWg.html. I might give both a shot. Then I could test ones that I've purchased, and experiment with building my own.
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