The 2 experienced drivers who helped with this video both consider it a total waste of money. There are 2 important things a driver must do at a Junction. The first is look and see if the points are correctly set for the desired direction. Next comes looking to see if another tram will get in the way. Then be alert for all the other obstructions like cars and people. No signal can replace those requirement, and may well be an unwanted distraction.

Here in New England we have an old Yankee saying: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Some engineer in his/her office no doubt thought this was a splendid idea, and other (non-driver) executives agreed. Now they'll have to hire more techs to keep it working….

I suspect a fast talking salesman fooled some health & safety zealot.

High tech doesn't necessarily mean better. Why fix what isn't broken?

Next week I will see if those expensive signals are still turned off, or even removed.

There will be an update to this signals video when I get to edit it.

Thanks. I hope you like others if my videos. Look in my Playlists if you can.

Yea I will be sure to be looking at your playlists and I love those clips of the Newcastle railway line in 2005!

Driving trams is a bit different from driving trains mainly since trams generally go slower but more importantly can stop much faster. Tram drivers are expected to keep their eyes open, look for any tram or other vehicle or person who may get in their way and be ready to stop. At facing points they must stop and make certain that point blades are sitting fully for the direction they wish to go. In view of all that, I wonder what the fancy signals are for. 2 current tram drivers describe them as being a great waste of money.

I agree with those drivers - it does to be a bit of overkill hahaha

I can’t remember all the details now but am fairly certain that they are set up so that a tram heading into the terminus from the city does not head for the single track platform at the same time as a tram is coming out of the sidings into the same platform.

Actually I was not the cameraman that time. I heard about those signals there after I left Melbourne but a friend who is a tram driver was good enough to go and take the video for me. It is hard to say what that guy was thinking. In Australia you are free to photograph everything from public land. That includes anywhere in the street, parks, and in this case a tram stop. I will be doing a follow-up on Melbourne signals when I get around to it.

@@tressteleg1 Ok. Looking forward to the next episode!

Bob Rogers The System at Port Junction was turned off a few weeks later after 2 trams bumped together. It was still off a year later. I will see if it is still off next month. Drivers have told me all these extra signals are a great waste of money that achieves nothing.

About a year ago at Port Junction where Saint Kilda and Port Melbourne lines meet there apparently was a collision between two trams. The last I heard was that the signals were turned off although the electric points still work. I will check that out in a couple of weeks.

I left Melbourne in 1994 and have to say that, amongst a few other things, there have been improvements and square wheels now being rather rare is one of them. Chewed out curves is another. You would have to give the exact time point on the movie for me to comment but it is all academic now because after 2 trams scraped together at that junction 15 months ago, all the complex signals at that junction have been turned off and are unlikely to be reactivated. However the simple left or right indicators, in use at all junctions, remain. I have the raw clips to do an Update Signals Video later.

tressteleg1 I refer to 4:48, 'points still set for siding'. Centre tram must have come in on 96 line and points referred to are back further on Port Melbourne line.

It was an a class and they do not run to Port Melbourne. It is the next tram from Port Melbourne which will require the driver to change the points from the button on his control console, or get out with the point bar and turn them back. All facing points are compulsory stops with the intention that the driver must stop and make sure the point blades are lying the right way.

I drove the A and B class on that line from 1988 to 1994 when I quit. The wooden sleepers would have been replaced one by one over the years as they rotted out. So there were certainly no 1896 sleepers used till 10 years ago. As for the 15 km/h speed limit, that applies to all crossovers on the system which is stupid beyond belief but the result of ramping up the flangeways through the track frogs and this lifts the tram on that side and causes it to rock. I know it well, as I was staying at Saint Kilda less than a month ago so used that line most days. My local Gold Coast line has frogs like on a railway track without ramping, and they are permitted to go through the triangaular junction at the depot, and through crossovers as fast as 40 km/h. I can say nothing good about Melbourne special work.

I think some are still working but shortly after I took video of the signals at Port Junction, two trams did collide side to side so those fancy and expensive signals were turned off and have since been removed.

Try this: Southbank Tram Depot 2 Days Old kzfaq.info/get/bejne/eZ2CiJWTmruce5c.html

Please give the video time point so I know we are looking at the same thing.

@@tressteleg1 The traffic lights on the right with the single lines

@@jordanferrazza8700 I repeat, please give the video time point, like 12:17 or whatever. I can do nothing without that. Thanks.

@@tressteleg1 2:08

I think I know what you mean now. Forget about the 2 displays on the left with twin // \\ ||. Not long after this video was taken, 2 trams merged together here, crashing against each other going the same way, as far as I have heard. Anyway those indicators were turned off and now the lamps have been removed. However the single / indicators remain. / means points set to right, \ means go left - means malfunction, but also occurs briefly while the points are actually in the process of changing. Those indicators are seen everywhere that ‘automatic’ points are used. In places where there are no indicators, the driver has to get out with point bar and change by hand. Usually these are less used places including crossovers (reversing places).

A Driver I know said that they are a total waste of time. They don’t really do anything that the simple earlier method did not do. As a former driver, I agree. When the driver pushes a button on the console to go left or right it sends out a radio signal tone which is different from the tone which is playing all the time to advise traffic lights that a tram is there and also to set the points for the straight direction. In other words, one radio frequency means straight, a second frequency means turn right and a third frequency means turn left. There is a wire loop set in the road between the tracks which detects those different frequencies. It is 10 or so metres before the points themselves. The radio transmitter is under the driver’s cab. Traffic lights have similar wire loops in the road to detect when a car is approaching. These loops look for the metal of the car, not a radio signal.

@@tressteleg1 Thanks for that. I presume that these radio signals control some kind of electrical motor (like seen on the railways) which physically changes the point blades. Is this motor located underneath the rail junction?

Russell Anderson Yes. The radio signal is picked up by a wire loop buried in the ground. When necessary, this activates equipment which causes an electric motor to wind the points to the other direction. The motor is located in a metal box, from memory beside one of the rails but not between the rails. If you check some of my videos you will probably see one of these boxes, or at least its lid.

The lights are only ‘important ‘ to the tram drivers when they are quite close to them. Drivers have told me that the signal are nothing but a waste of money and are totally unnecessary.

@@tressteleg1 Also very interesting. We here approach some Signals with 60-70km/h so that's more of an issue.

Yes. I can think of only one place on Australian tramways where a junction is approached at speed. All others are at places where streets meet, and there are traffic lights or tram stops or both. The one exception is the Depot entrance on the Gold Coast tramway which trams run through at 40 km/h. All electrically controlled junction in Australia show the usual / or \ or l indications so the reason for those extra complicated signals in Melbourne is probably some method to advise drivers when another tram is around, something drivers do everywhere else by simply opening their eyes!

@@tressteleg1 I see. We don't even have those traffic lights with the "T", just regular traffic lights and tram signals. And points signals indicating in which direction the points are and if they are electronically locked.

I’m on Gold Coast Tram 01 at the moment... all intersections on this line have traffic lights and as is the Australian Standard, a white T light = Go for trams. Unless the tram’s GPS tells the traffic light that a tram is approaching, the T light is Red. This is the only Australian tramway with real traffic light priority. It is is years since I was last in Germany so forget what was done there.

I put it down to Yarra being fooled by a slick equipment salesman. A few weeks after I took that video, there was a side on collision there. The lights were then turned off and now gone without trace. So drivers went back to doing what they had done since 1988 - followed the rule that trams ex Port Melbourne had to watch out for trams ex St Kilda. I’m not sure what the rule is about outbound to PM. But largely it is a matter of opening your eyes, and use your brains. After all, it is just the occasional tram through here. There cannot be a real traffic jam.

I’m not sure which company supplied the Part Junction (and the few other) signals but certainly from Europe as the local tramways are insufficient to support such a factory. Funny thing about those particular signals - a few weeks after this video was taken, two trams managed to scrape together here, exactly what these signals were supposed to avoid. The signals were turned off, and since removed. Tram drivers could not see the point in them, and their guess is that some slick salesman convinced Yarra to install them which was done. What a waste of money. The few others may be still in place, but largely ignored as drivers managed quite well without them for many decades.

@@tressteleg1: looking more closely, they are definitely Swarco Mondial signal heads. Very commonplace in Europe, and we even occasionally see them used in Britain in temporary installations.

Thanks for that. While there is probably nothing wrong with the product, along with the point blade direction indicators which have been a feature of ‘automatic’ points in Melbourne for around 30 years, along with road traffic lights in some locations, together it is probably just too much clutter for the driver to be looking at when all he/she really has to do is look for any tram likely to get in the way, and check that the point blades are set the right way and see that he has a green traffic light, or white T light. I don’t expect that Melbourne will be buying any more.

That is the question the tram drivers themselves are asking. In fact the Port Junction extra lights were turned off soon after that video was made because 2 trams bumped together there. I expect they are still off. A total waste of money.