I really love the idea of Utumno being still out there up in the far frozen wastes, flanked perhaps by great glaciers, and his most evil abominations still lingering there throughout the eons of Arda. It really inspires an almost Lovecraftian horror, like "At the Mountains of Madness."

The Middle Earth mod for Minecraft had the ruined entrance to Utumno in the frozen north. It was quite the long journey to reach even the southern edge of Forodwaith, and even longer (and more dangerous) to reach the ruins. The mod added cold damage you would take if you weren't wearing warm gear. And without any roads or markers on the built-in map, you had to already know where to go or else you'd never find it, and a lot of people would've never even known the place existed. But if you managed to get there and enter the ruins, you'd find a deep hole in the ground, jump into it, and enter the fortress. The inside was broken into three levels; ice, obsidian, and fire; filled with more and more dangerous monsters the further down you went.

I am pretty convinced by the Forodwaith theory. It makes far too much sense that a wasteland eternally suffering Morgoth's cold and attracting so many exotic monsters would be the old home of evil on Arda. Also I believe I read that the Iron Mountains were erected as a sort of "fence" by Morgoth. It makes the most sense if they were meant to wall off Utumno in the north, as Tolkien's oldest map displays.

If Utumno was such a deep place it might also be the source of the Nameless things Gandalf talks about, he mentioned tunnels, caves and caverns underneath the mountains and lands of Middle-Earth. It could also be how the Balrog Durin's Bane got away when Morgoth lost the war. I also wonder if there might be more Balrogs, I'd like to think so.

I never liked the Carn Dûm theory. I think it is too far south. I also suspect that if Utumno was reasonably accessible, Sauron would have tried to make use of it in the 2nd Age. So, I think it is either underwater or buried under lots of snow and ice.

I love the idea that Utulmo is still there is the frozen north, with only ruins of its peaks peaking out of the snow like a dark warning, for inside it horrors of the First Age still linger. If Tolkien ever wrote of some side-events far away from the main conflict, that is something I'd like to witness, though I also like that it is so unknown, it's the type of fanfiction I wish videogames would explore, not rewriting things we already know from the main story, but exploring things that might be. I just wish Tolkien gave us some one or two lines to build such intrigue. Like Gandalf having a throw away line referencing the ancient horrors of Utulmo deeb beneath the snow as far north you can go. Then it is up to us to imagie what horrors that might be. Sounds like the most amazing dungeon crawling adventure there could ever be. Thats something I've already wished for, a Dark Souls-like game where you play as a powerful creature, like a Vanyar elf, exploring the deep and evil places of the world fighting old horrors and orcs alike with the powerful light the Vanyar shine with. From the deep tunnels carved by the Nameless Things, to the many tombs in the Barrow Downs, to the orc ghettos of Gorgoroth, to the ruins of Carn Dum, to the dark evil halls of Utumno. I want to explore them all and slay countless orcs along the way.

Come for the lore, stay for the message.

If Utumno is underground and some parts of it are still intact somewhere the dark undergrounds of snow, ice, and earth it would be quite the dark story to rival that of the Mountains of Madness where an ancient evil with dark secrets existed. The first Ancient dragons of Morgoth after Ancalagon died would make this place their home if they were able to barge themselves inside in the cold unforgiving north. And to add extra horror the deepest pits of Utumno could house some Nameless Things in them since they like being in dark underground passages which they gnaw through. Along with a couple Balrogs or evil maiar probably.

Here is food for thought: So you know the whole thing about magic and stuff starting to fade from Middle-Earth as times goes on, and especially after Sauron is gone? Well! Morgoth's influence still remains ("Morgoths ring"), so this means Utumno will probably carry a taint far after all the fantastic beings and entities are gone. Now imagine in a time way past elves, dwarves, magical entities and stuff some scientists start drilling in those ice fields to take some ice samples, or make some sort of futuristic submarine to go do research. I'm willing to bet that if there is one place that would at that far, far future point in time carry some sort of supernatural presence, it would be Utumno's ruins. Which makes me rather amused at the thought of a bunch of scientists with no belief in magic or anything supernatural drilling for ice samples, or using a submarine to do research, only to then go stumbling onto the long gone seat of a primordial evil, and getting way more than they bargained for when the still present ancient evil hocus pocus starts happening and everything goes wrong as all the nightmares and death of the past echos from beyond eons of dust and decay.

In the 90x russuan autor Nick Perumov wrote a fanfiction trilogy Ring of Darkness, which take palce in the Fourth Age 300 years after War of the Ring and in the first book there was a story from New Arnor soldier who was in the expedition (hunting last orcs) to the far north, deep to the Forochel. They speculate that they even may found ruins of the forthress. But all they found was endless misty wasteland with grey clouds wtihout any sight of the sky, and uncorporal ghost wandering in in it - spiders, clouds flying snakes who roaming without a clue and whispering something on long forgotten languages. They dont react to humans, but the far people go into the mist, the stronger become unconscious fear. And after few days of travel they return

Valar attacked Utumno TWICE and haven't destroyed it! So it's pretty safe to say that most of infernal evil creatures spawned from there. Balrog aka Durin's Bane is confirmed to come from there, as Gandalf called him "flame of Udun (Utumno)".

I love the idea of Utumno being in the far north and just plain lost. A good metaphor that some part of Morgoth still remains in the world. I've always been curious about Glamdring (all but stated to have been Turgon's sword) and Orcrist. They have huge reputations but if you think about it, they were only ever used in two instances, the Battle of Unnumbered tears and the Fall of Gondolin, both of which ended badly for the elves. Really interesting how weapons used in losing battles ended up being feared by Orcs thousands of years later.

Yet again Tolkien doesn’t cease to amaze at how lovecraftian middle earth can be, I mean a hidden fortress either under a another fortress, in a frozen wasteland or under the sea, that holds within it evils undreamt of by man or elves sounds just like the mountains of madness

I firmly believe that Utumno was a bit north of the Iron Mountains, definitely in Forodwaith, but possibly under the Ice Bay as well. When trying to understand Utumno we have to also understand that it's not a fortress, like Angband and secondly it was mostly (if not entirely) underground. It's impossible for the vast hordes of Morgoth to be housed in a fortress no matter how big. Therefore Utumno which means "low lying" could be an entire underground area connected with vast tunnel networks. An endless dungeon, a hell on earth. How on earth can someone make such an assumption, I hear you asking? The answer simply lies on the area of Udûn in Mordor. A valley surrounded by mountains and its entrances guarded by 2 fortresses. Why did Sauron choose to name this region after Utumno (Udûn and Uttumno are the same)? Why didn't he name any fortress as such but a valley? Probably because Udûn in Mordor was shaped exactly as Utumno was. A valley, surrounded by mountains, having possibly many underground tunnels which connected the various fortress of Mordor. It's not just because Sauron wanted to name a random place like that. And Tolkien has this notorious habit of naming places carefully and with a meaning behind. If someone looks at the map of Udûn in Mordor what do they see? A valley surrounded by mountains and guard by the Black Gate on the one side and Isenmouthe on the other side. That's awfully similar to the northern valleys of Middle-Earth guarded by the Iron Mountains. Remember Angband earlier on was just an outpost against the West. But this is where Morgoth fled after the main portion of Utumno was destroyed. Yet even after the War of Wrath, Angband was never fully explored. Why? My guess here and my theory as well is that since Utumno was not a single stronghold but a series of underground dwellings and tunnels in the Valley north of the Iron Mountains, all of the fortresses in the Iron Mountains would have been interconnected by those tunnels. The Iron Mountains where the walls of Utumno, where not only Angband but other fortresses could have been built as well, as outposts. Which would explain: 1) How Durin's Bane managed to flee beneath Moria after Angband was destroyed. 2) The existence of such an outpost near the mountains of Angmar, which would be exploited later by the Witch-King to be the foundation of Angmar. Therefore Utumno was a huge valley of underground fortresses, dungeons and tunnels protected by the Iron Mountains by several interconnected outposts, one of which was Angband. The location of Udûn in Mordor could serve as a living testimony of Utumno's legacy, but could also hint in its whereabouts as well. Finally this is the reason why Tolkien could have been so conflicted on Utumno's location earlier on, but later he stopped drawing it on maps. Maybe the throne of Morgoth was in a specific location, but Utumno was unfathomably vast and cannot fit on a spot on the map. That said why then isn't Utumno depicted in the map as an area? Well simply because in the lore of the Elves this fortress was destroyed and was no threat anymore. There was no reason to try and locate Utumno at all. Thus, they left it out of their legends and it exists in only but a name as a reminder of an ancient evil. Angmar on the other hand was much more of a real threat directly to the Elves. And its location was still considered sinister even after its fall and well known to them. Which is why it is depicted on maps. Just my 2 cents on this. I enjoyed the video so much. I can't explain how much I love these series.

There's some textual evidence in a footnote to LotR Appendix A: These are a strange, unfriendly people, remnant of the Forodwaith, Men of far-off days, accustomed to the bitter colds of the realm of Morgoth. Indeed those colds linger still in that region, though they lie hardly more than a hundred leagues north of the Shire. The Lossoth house in the snow, and it is said that they can run on the ice with bones on their feet, and have carts without wheels. They live mostly, inaccessible to their enemies, on the great Cape of Forochel that shuts off to the north-west the immense bay of that name; but they often camp on the south shores of the bay at the feet of the Mountains. Personally I favour the Icebay of Forochel theory based on this, but even so I'd still admit that it's far from being strong evidence. Also worth noting that at an earlier stage in composition of the Legendarium we actually knew exactly where Utumno was: because Morgoth built Angband on the ruins of Utumno after his return to Middle-earth. I'd need to check HoME 4 and 5 to see where this chronologically fits with the Ambarkanta maps, though.

I think Utumno should've been to the east. Melkor knew or guessed where the elves would wake and it is more plausible for him to build his main fortress nearer to them; even more since Angband under the command of sauron was west as a first defence against the Valar. I think eastern Forodwaith would be an educated guess. I might be mistaken, but don't the dragons in third age come from there?

Personally, I'm attracted to the idea of the ruins of Utumno being beneath Angmar. It would explain why Angmar was chosen as a base for the Witch King, as it inherited an age-old legacy of evil. Also, as the Misty Mountains were also raised by Morgoth joining with the remnants of the earlier Iron Mountains the tunnels and vaults of Utumno might have been extended beneath them by legacy creatures of Morgoth. And we have things like the Watcher in the Water turning up from beneath those mountains. And we also have those tunnels gnawed by nameless things Gandalf travels through when battling the Balrog. Perhaps those nameless things originated in Utumno and survived its fall.

From the Silmarillion it seems like Morgoth was most active in the far east pre first age. He was clearly the rider who the elves mistook Oromë for, abducting elves while they were still at Cuivienen. So it makes sense that he would have built Utumno in that area. Also, if the point of Angband was to protect and give warning against an assault from Valinor then it wouldn't be much use being very near to Utumno. And it extended his influence across multiple regions to have fortresses in different places. I always imagined Utumno was north of the grey mountains since that seems to be where the dragons came from as well, attacking Dwarven cities in the East

I really hope you will do a video with possible location for Sauron's hideout in the east in the third age. Also, a video about that continent in the south of mordor, dark land, where ungoliant flee, will be very interesting.

For me, Utumno makes more sense as being further east for a few reasons. Angband is said to be the "Western" outpost as you mention. Additionally it is said the Misty Mountains are erected to hinder the valar's crossing of Middle Earth, this could be just a petty move by Morgoth or a strategic one to assist his defense of his "main fortress" located before the earth was made round, as far away from Valinor and the Valar as possible, in the east. That is why Angband was the western outpost located closest to the only physical connection between his Middle Earth and Valinor(the Helcaraxe), and why the perhaps why misty mountains were erected. Additionally, all of the Northern Wastes/Forodwaith are said to be tainted by Morgoth and thus frozen and lifeless from west to east. We don't have an indication this was the case in the first age, and I always thought it was was one of the ways in which Arda was changed by the War of Wrath. Not only did lands sink and mountains shatter but permanently frozen land now above a certain latitude. Also, Forochel has a native population, the Lossoth which if that is the location of Utumno, these men are able to survive in a land located above the ruins of the most evil fortress, a land that would surely be both inhospitable, or at least very corrupting. Yet these men were hospitable to the Dunedain, and did not serve the Witch-King or appear to be Morgoth Worshipers.

To think that it takes so many Valars to defeat Morgoth really shows how powerful the Dark Lord is.

I'll go with the MERP version: Bay of ûtum east of Forochel and bits and pieces of old surviving tunnels deep in the earth and at the northern coast of Middle-Earth. Non-canon, but makes as much sense as any given the available information.

Utumno is a scary dungeon in lotr Minecraft mod

Here's a thought I have had many times. At the end of the War of Wrath it is said that the surviving Balrogs fled and hid themselves away in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the Earth. The Balrogs had come and gone from Utumno many times, and it would have some sort of meaning to them as it is where they chose their form. There is NO WAY that at least one Balrog fled there and hid there, like Durin's Bane did when he hit the Misty Mountains. Seems like an obvious place to flee back to, as almost nobody knows where the ruins are and surely some of its caverns remain.

Funny you say that last part! I am quite convinced the most recent Rings of Power trailer shows Galadriel’s party searching the ruins of Utumno (where they find the anvil w/ the trident rune). We shall see what great evils befall them there…

In my head canon it was north east being Morgoth's first fortress standing in opposition to the Valar in the West. Also conveniently close to where the Elves awoke. Where ever it is now no one knows being long forgotten also a convenient hiding place for a Balrog.

Thats a very interesting question and you explained brilliantly many possibilities, those maps from Catherine are amazing (her Atlas of Middle-earth helped me a lot during my first Silmarillion run) and these artworks are pretty neat

Could you do video about "What if Union of Maedhros won at Battle of Unnumbered Tears? " What would happen if they sticked to their original strategy or werent betrayed by the Easterlings and actually managed to defeat all of the Morgoth army?

what's the background song?It's so cool,chilling even

There's actually a piece of textual evidence that you overlooked: Dúrin's Bane. The text seems to suggest that the balrog went into some kind of stasis after Utumno's destruction: Gandalf calls it a "flame of Uldun", "Uldun" being another name for Utumno. This is not a balrog who fled the War of Wrath, the Valar would never be that careless. This is a balrog who was left behind after the destruction of Utumno. Now, I wouldn't conclude that the tunnel it was in was somehow in the fortress proper, it was most likely just a mining tunnel or something. But that would suggest that Utumno was somewhere close by: perhaps just to the north of the Misty Mountains. Which like... that would also explain the Watcher in the Water. It's hard to see how some kind of squid-monster would get into a body of water that was never connected to a river or ocean, like Mirrormere. At least, without someone having put it there. I would point out though that Utumno must have been freaking enormous. The Map of Beleriand in the Silmarillion shows Angband stretching across the entire northern section, the dot on the map is just where the front gates are: but it seems to be as big as Beleriand is wide (which admittedly, is not that big in absolute terms since Beleriand is kind of tiny). But if Angband is that big, I'm guessing Utumno was much bigger. So I think the answer to our question here is most likely "both". It probably spans the entire area between the Blue Mountains and the Misty Mountains behind the Iron Mountains because well... why not. In fact, my headcanon has always been that Angband was actually part of Utumno: specifically, one of the prison/treasury parts (the name Angband could be translated as both Iron Prison and Iron Safe).

The main issue is, I think if Tolkien had ever sat down and wrote The Silmarillion as a full novel he would have fixed the inconsistencies. I really wish I could read that hypothetical book. I love The Silmarillion, but it leaves you wanting more detail, given that is is a series of essays anchored to a completed short story (Beren and Luthien) and not so much a cohesive narrative.

Concepts like this would be really cool to explore in an open world middle-earth video game. Ya know, the thing Warner Bros flat out refuses to make. There are so many things in the legendarium that would make for really good side quests if a half decent writer was given some creative freedom with them

I really love the idea of a Mountains of Madness-esque expedition to find the cursed, haunted ruins of the literal root of evil on all Arda, deep in the dead, frozen north. I love it so much I actually incorporated it in a worldbuilding project a friend and I started a few years ago. What if, if The New Shadow was ever finished, the Evil in Utumno would slowly start sending out its tendrils again? Maybe the ruined fortress is not all dead. Nameless Things still gnaw at the roots of the world, ever hungry. Morgoth may be gone, but his shadow lives on, dead dreaming...

Thanks very much kind Sir, I appreciate your focus on details many have overlooked, unwittingly or not. I also appreciate you cutting Fonstad some slack, for as you appropriately mentioned, she used what she had to get the maps drawn and Christopher (bless him) brought a great deal of new (to us) information forward in the "History of Middle Earth" series of books (which I happily own) after her efforts were published. I purchased Karen's book "Atlas of Middle Earth" as soon as it was published (yeah, LONG time Tolkien geek here) and have found the majority of the info incredibly well detailed, predominantly accurate and profoundly valuable as a handy "go-to" while delving into Christopher's 12 volume Opus. Not to mention, the Legendarium itself. She has also provided an excellent Atlas for Stephen R. Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant" series' of books (my 2nd fave mythical/fantastical story of lands and people). As for placement of Utumno, I've always considered its location in relevance to positioning of the Two Great Lamps (Illuin and Ormal), which if I'm gauging correctly, would place it almost directly North of Illuin, beneath/behind the Iron Mountains just to the east of the 3rd Age remaining Grey Mountains. As for any residual effects on the 3rd Age Peoples and fauna, I suspect because J.R.R. spent no real time concerning it, he had no desire for us to, either. Though it certainly does provide a dangling plot element with its mysterious fading into history. :)

I wonder. In the Rings of Power series, at the first episode Galadriel enters a fortress in a frozen wasteland on middle-earth. Wonder if that was part of Utumno she entered.

Maybe that dragons of the third age were all coming from the inside of the ruins of Utumno because it is said that there is nothing in the North of the Northernmost mountains but deathly cold and dragons fled from the war of wrath so what are those dragons doing in the middle of nothing for ages??? I believe that dragons escaped from the destruction of the war of wrath somehow knew the location of their master's old fortress, Utumno and seek shelter there for ages. They dwelt and breed there. And we don't know this because no elf or human ever travelled beyond the northernmost mountains due to the deathly cold. Afterall the Silmarillion is from the good guys' perspection...

I can think of all sorts of interesting treasures or magic items lying hidden in the ruins. Would make for a great high level tabletop rpg adventure. Maybe the seasoned PCs find or purchase a centuries (millennia?) old map, and after deciphering the key discover it leads to the entrance of Utumno, far to the north.

TBH I really feel like Tolkien didn't focus THAT much on evil things beyond them being "dark and evil" which is kind of also what sparks out imagination so much imo. Like it's hard to imagine that Utumno could have been MORE evil than Angband or even that Angband could have been worse than Barad Dur. All 3 serve the same function in the story but it's still fascinating to try and imagine what they were actually like.

Awesome video bro. I've always wondered about utumno

Nicely laid out Darth. Enjoyed this. As far as I am concerned (my own head canon) the ruins of Utumno probably lie at the bottom of the ice bay. That would explain its trecherousness to ships, including the one Cirdan sent that sank with King Arvedui and a palantir on board. That being said I also like it possibly being buried under miles of snow in the middle of nowhere. I know some have suggested it may be around the area where the Misty Mountains met the Grey Mountains but that seems too close to Gundabad where During I awoke. Though that might also explain the Withered Heath, home to dragons and orcs? Anyway happy hunting.

One of the last remaining Balrogs in hiding realizing his house keys still work on the old abandoned Utumno fortress and he's the only one who knows where it is: "It's free real estate"

Great question and video. I do like the idea of the Witch King setting up shop in the ruins. Fun stuff

Personally I think it most likely that Eru Iluvitar probably made it so Utumno was completely impossible to find or enter by anyone, even Morgoth, and just never told anyone. He probably hid it in the void of space, outside Arda but inside Ea, nowadays we probably see it as a black hole of some sort. It would explain why we have no idea and why the Valar ignored it after the War of Wath, it would also explain why Morgoth went to Angband and not Utumno, he couldn't find it anymore.

The LOTR Minecraft mod actually still has the ruins of Utumno in Forodwaith (even if it isn't really lore-friendly, depending on the theory) as its own dungeon where you can explore layers of tormented elves, early trolls, and other fell creatures.

Refinding Utumno by some north dwarfs clan, so that's an adventure movie I'd like to see.

I love this format!

Very late to the party. But I want to mention two things 1) In the minecraft mod, Utumno is very much a thing. Now I know, this is no credible source, but a very engaged nerd made the concept of this mod. It is located in the mountains of the Cape of Forochel there. I personally believe this is a very reasonable take because Utumno would probably be located in a mountainous terrain, considering all the semi-official illustrations and maps and there is no other mountain range nearby. 2) The idea of Utumno still existing definitely supports the kingdom of Angmar. The Witch king needed to draw resources (orcs and other beasts) from somewhere. He couldn't have possibly gathered a large enough force to defeat Arnor without significant resources. Therefore I believe he drew orcs and other creatures from the remains of Utumno

It’s honestly pretty funny to hear the stressing pronunciation of Angband now. I can never unhear ANGBANG

One (in-world) way of finding out if Utumno were hidden beneath the Forochel Ice Bay could be to bring one of the remaining Palantiri to the shore and try to catch a glimpse underwater by connecting it to Arvedui's lost Palantiri.

Utumno being in Forodwaith or under the Ice-Bay of Forochel would explain why Middle Earth gets so cold so quickly as you move north. From the northern borders of the Shire to the Ice-Bay is only 300 miles, i.e. the distance between London and Edinburgh. Imagine London being the climate it is now and Scotland being tundra and ice. That's a wild climate shift.

Great video!! Maybe you could do a video on Carn dum next,

In Lord of the Rings Online there is an area between Angmar and Car Bronach (an area north of Gundabad) called the Rift of Nurz Ghashu. There is the ruins of a deep underground fortress there that you descend into to fight a Balrog who has managed to escape from his imprisonment. He has been kept there from the time of the first age by an elf named Glathlírel. This Balrog named Thaurlach flew away from Angband when Morgoth was defeated and hid for many years underground. I always thought that maybe this underground place was supposed to represent the ruins of Utumno. :)

Do you think that the ice caves in the LOTR show trailers are Utumno and that Galadriel went there in the show?

Me and my friend once both agreed that A: As Morgoth forged the Misty mountains to hinder Valar onslaught it had to be east of Misty mountains. B: It was west of lake Helcar. C: As Angband was in mountainous terrain so was probably Utumno. Then we bot looked at each other and said: Under the Grey Mountains. That was probably the place the dragons of Withered Heath came from - dwarves digging too deep uncovered the first Morgoth's experiments with dragonkind.

I think I prefer the Icebay idea, but given Utumno was supposed to have many pits, dungeons, and mines, I also think it's certainly possible that branching caverns from the fortress may go on quite a ways...maybe with a particularly strong wellspring of Morgoth's power going under Carn Dume, similar to Mount Doom in Mordor. Credit where it's due, I think I remember someone else suggesting that, or something similar, but I can't remember where.

See after watching this i have this image of Morgoth roaming through middle earth for a bit after he escaped trying to find Utumno but can't remember where he hid the place.

We have a discription of Utumno after it was broken: "Then the chain is smithied to each of these and Melko borne thus helpless away, while Tulkas and Ulmo break the gates of Utumna and pile hills of stone upon them. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when Melko was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time -- from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of Melko find their end." - The Book of Lost Tales 1 We also have a glimps of the monsters in Utumno: "Then the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone; and now they follow Manwe and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat Melko in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with fever-ish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof. Then said Manwe: "Behold, we have come and salute you here in your own halls; come now and be in Valinor." - The Book of Lost Tales 1

I've always wondered what became of Utumno. And although I still don't know, I feel considerably better informed on the topic should it ever come up in conversation.

That was frustratingly fascinating.

Ι think Utumno was in the bottom of the Beregaer N - NW of Tol Fuin

I'm putting money that in episode 1 of ROP that they did go to Utumno looking for Sauron, even though a name is never given.

With Utumno being lost so very deep in primordial age of Arda I would assume that the majority of this citadel are long long gone. However, like the Spring Age of Arda replete with the towering lamps of the Valar as well as the timeless, enchantingly beautiful realm or Aman I would love to see these extremely old lands and locations. That being said the speculation as to it’s location being in the northern waste makes a lot sense. As we have both the dragons roosting up in the mountains of this country as well as the seat of power of the Witch King 👑. As if there’s some residual locus of evil both drawing towards and quite possibly emitting such evil incarnate. Nevertheless I find it all quite fascinating.

ngl all three of these sound like hella fun to imagine

There is some eerie passage about Utumno´s location in the farthest north of all in Arda and Middle-Earth central-main continental mass, that states it´s somehow connected elsewhere through deep labyrinth-like tunnels which allow an easy communication to other unknown and wisepread places in the world, which kinda makes me think about the pretty eerie and mysterious Nameless-Things at the deepest bottom of Moria which Gandalf saw when seeking to face against the Balrog there. And of course it doesn´t makes sense about the idea of Melkor doing all the digging on his own to create and build up Utumno in the first place as in the Silmarillion kinda states, but of course might have got some special help on which Sauron was very unaware as he was then his spy on Almaren Island before the breaking of the Lamps and the end of the Spring of Arda, so he didn´t knew about who were the ones working with his master all along, just barely maybe the Balrogs and little more. Melkor was able to create mountains to hide himself and cover his domains from the outer light of both the Lamps and later on the Trees, as were both the Iron Mountains and then the Misty Mountains created in first place, Thangorodrim volcano-mountains over Angband were another sample of the same thing.

I love seeing LOTRO used to represent Middle Earth among these channels. Forochel... never-ending cold adventuring! 🥶

Despite potential errors due to lack of information, I still find Fonstad's maps to be the best ones out there for helping me to visualise the books-especially the Silmarillion. Also I always assumed that the Sea of Rhun was just the last, Northern remnant of the Sea of Helcar.

From what i remember in the Sillmarillion the elfs travel for a long time before reaching the misty mountains. And the see the clouds from the battle in Uumno much earlier than that

Great vidio

I love the speculative topic. What about beneath the Withered Heath? We know little of that area - we know from the Hobbit Map it is from "Whence Came the Great Worms" (Smaug), and it is in the proximity of the Grey Mountains and Forodwaith, plus there is very little known, or written of the Withered Heath lands as well.

I would also like to think Utumno is in Forodwaith buried under the snow.

If the Shire was roughly the prehistoric English Midlands, Utumno might then roughly be... Siberia.

Looking at the maps I think that, if you really want Utumno still brooding somewhere above the ocean in the third age, there's wiggle room to have that be at least partly true, even if you take the more westerly location: Utumno is described as incredibly vast - Morgoth's 'first and greatest fortress' the quote IIRC. A dwelling so huge that even the armies of the Valar and Maiar couldn't plumb all its chambers and pits, even after it was broken - so it is reasonable to imagine it extended quite a long way behind the iron mountains. Hence, even if the core of it was beneath the ice bay, the outer parts of its ruin might still be found on the ice bay's coast, or even further inland. What's more, it also seems reasonable that such a realm would have had satellite fortresses and settlements - watch towers on the iron mountains, land for raising food creatures, more isolated pits for the more difficult to manage or experimental creatures, mines and so on. So even if Utumno itself is drowned entirely, there could be a lot of those outlying 'suburban' parts of Utumno across the Forodwaith region. I can even offer a slender thread of evidence for this: That the entire region remains utterly and unnaturally cold and inhospitable, and home chiefly to evil creatures. It might be that this is down to Morgoth's power being literally sunk into the rock - but it could equally, and simultaneously even, be down to there being some remaining sections of Utumno or it's satellite dwellings buried beneath the ice but above ground. That might even be the purpose of the ice: To keep people away, and keep the remains sealed shut

Carn Dhum theory is so stupid, Utumno was Large, akin to Hell. It was in the Farthest North, probably facing East because Melkor had always suspected that the Children of Illuvatar will wake up in the Eastern Parts of Arda. And also during the years of lamps. The Valars and Good Maiars had difficulties finding the Fortress of Melkor.

Funny how this video became relevant with the first episode of the Rings of Power with Galadriel seemingly exploring the ruins

I like the idea of it under the waters. Given that water is the least affected by Morgoth, it isn’t surprising if the Valar decide to permanently fill Utumno with it to neutralise the fortress at last.

That's it - Sarah - Hold my calls. I'm off to find Utumno.

Perhaps Amazon think that it is these ruins that Galadriel goes to in her 'quest' for Sauron, Forodwaith?

One of the few things I liked about THE RINGS OF POWER TV show was how they had this ancient evil fortress in the frozen north which I thought was a nod to Utumno. Unfortunately, there was very little else I liked about that show and stopped watching it after 2-3 episodes. I prefer the theory that Utumno still exists, frozen in the ice, but almost impossible to get to.

In the appendix of the return of the king, there is an * That talks about the people of The Bay Of Forochel (spelling?) If you read it it starts with the name of the people? Then says they are strand and mysterious people who adapted to the extreme cold of the land of Morgoth, or similar look it up big clue to Utumno

I love the ice Bay theory, an ancient sleeping caldera

I prefer to ignore the existing evidence as garbage and think that if Tolkien ever finished the Silmarillion he would have offered something better. As it stands, Melkor builds his fortress in the northern dark to avoid the lamps and then lashes out and utterly destroys them, which seems contradictory. Since Melkor conquered Almaren and the Valar fled you'd think he'd take it over as his capital or do something else grandiose to celebrate his victory.

I personally believe it’s north of or deep within the Forodwaith, as it explains why the surviving Dragons dwelt there, it’s a pretty isolated place where the Valar wouldn’t care to look, and to the free peoples it was a cold and barren wasteland home only to beasts. The idea of Utumno still being up there somewhere, secluded in thick ice and snow is creepy. I believe it would be long abandoned by the time of the Hobbit and LotR, though a Dragon or Balrog living in there wouldn’t surprise me, maybe some Orcs, though the Orcs from the Misty Mountains originate from Sauron and the Witch King, so I doubt there’s be Orcs of Morgoth there, maybe Werewolves, Vampires and Dragons, probably some of those nameless things like the squid thing in the water outside Moria and the ones Gandalf describes in the depths of Khazad-dum.

Wasn't Utumno utterly destroyed by the Valar during their assault, down to the lowest foundations? Perhaps my reading of it was wrong but that's what I seem to remember from the Silmarillion. That's why Morgoth chose the lesser Angband as his new headquarters instead of rebuilding Utumno. I could be mistaken though. And it's possible that Utumno became some other place; perhaps the land of Angmar from the Third Age(that the Witch King ruled while it still existed)? Or perhaps the ruins of Utumno were in the east of Middle Earth and helped Morgoth and Sauron corrupt the easterlings(which apparently didnt take much convincing since they hated and were always jealous of the Men of the West). I do like hearing these theories. And yeah Utumno is one of the things we don't ultimately KNOW what happened to it or its ruins. Its never really brought up again. I like the theories where the Ruins of Utumno became something else later on; like becoming Carn Dum the capital of Angmar; or something else. It was an evil sorcerous place so if it still existed I don't think either Morgoth but ESP Sauron would just NOT use it. They would def assign someone to it if they still had access to it and it was in good enough condition to be used. Just like Sauron returned to Mordor and rebuilt Barad Dur, which was razed to the ground with only the Foundations surviving(which were tied to the One Ring, so the foundations could NOT be destroyed until the ring itself was), despite it taking DECADES if not hundreds of years to fully rebuild Barad Dur after it was razed at the end of the second age the war of the last alliance. Same with Dol Guldur. It was in the heart of Mirkwood very close to Thranduil's halls; and was Sauron's chief Fortress in the Northwest of Middle earth, watching his main enemies the Elves and the Men of Arnor(like Aragorn/the Dunedain, and also the people that were subject to them like the Bree landers and others); and when Sauron himself wasn't personally occupying Dol Guldur he would assign a Ringwraith(or two) to hold the fort and act as Lord of Dol Guldur in Sauron's name. I THINK he assigned Khamul the Easterling as the Lord of Dol Guldur for about a couple decades at least, from the time that Sauron fled from the White Council back to Mordor, until the time Sauron openly declared himself and fortified Mordor, and afterwards too until his and his nazghul's destruction when the Ring was destroyed. if Utumno still existed it would be USED by Sauron and his forces; even if it WAS in ruins or changed its name to something else, or even heavily altered the fortress to something else it would still be deeply infused with Morgoths evil magic and curses. And Sauron would NEVER let such a place go to waste.

I saw some information and theoryes that Utumno was build in the central north of middle earth, maybe a little bit to east. Illuin was build in the north of the central-estic regions, and Utumno was probably very close behind some mountains, where the light of Iluin was weak. So, according to this theory, Utumno’s remnants are drowwned in Utumno's bay which was probably formed after the destruction of utumno, the war of wrath and maybe the downfall of Numenor. Utumno’s bay is a little bit in northeast compared to Lonely Mountain and Eren Engrin where the dwarves had their mine. Compared to the south regions, you can watch where sea Rhun is and go straight in the north-north-east until you reach forodwaith and where Utumno’s bay is now. Down i will show what i find. There will be a lot to read, but i will really like to know your opinion. I have searched for a definite answer to this question for a long time. There seems to be a lot of contradictory information on its location. I could not find any reasonably detailed answer at all. Therefore, I decided to have a look at the master’s works myself. A closer look at the source material revealed that some of the contradictions are misinterpretations. Hence there could very well be a consensus regarding the location of Utumno. The master definitively had a final word on the location of a Utumno. To understand where Utumno was, we will determine the vertical and horizontal location of it separately. Was Utumno inside or behind the Iron Mountains? (Vertical position on Arda) The literature and the drawn maps seem to contradict each other on that question. We have two maps from Tolkien which clearly show Utumno behind the Iron Mountains. Firstly, there is the “earliest map” which shows Utumno (here still written Utumna) in the northernmost part behind the Iron Mountains. Secondly, the Map IV of the “Ambarkanta maps” also shows Utumno to the north of the Iron Mountains. However, the following quote from the Silmarillion might implicate a different location of Utumno: “Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno.” - J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The Silmarillion This part created the believe that Utumno was built below (and not behind) the Iron Mountains. The very popular Atlas of Middle Earth from Karen Wynn Fonstad also displays the Ruins of Utumno inside of the Iron Mountains, most probably based on this text segment. But there are two indications inside this quote which make an Utumno below the Iron Mountains highly doubtful. Firstly, the light of the Illiun were “cold and dim” at its location. Below the Iron Mountains would not be any light at all. However, behind the Iron Mountains the light would indeed be dim because that part of Arda would only see indirect light of the Lamps. I created a sketch to visualize the issue with indirect light from Illuin and the two possible locations of Utumno. Secondly, the quote does not even mention the Iron Mountains as mountain range. It says that Utumno was build beneath “dark mountains”. Therefore, we can conclude that the theory of Utumno below the Iron Mountains is a conclusion (although an understandable one), but it is not based on the written text itself. We have further proof that Utumno was behind the Iron Mountains from the Silmarillion itself: “In the north of the world Melkor had in the ages past reared Ered Engrin, the Iron Mountains, as a fence to his citadel of Utumno; and they stood upon the borders of the regions of everlasting cold, in a great curve from east to west.” - J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The Silmarillion Melkor back then was so powerful, he did not build a wall as defense line for his citadel, he reared a gigantic mountain range. A “fence” usually encircles something. Utumno’s (first) wall was this mountain range and placing Utumno inside its own fence makes little sense. Additionally, Utumno being located behind the Iron Mountains is directly confirmed by another text piece from HoME 11: “At this time the Valar came hither from Aman for their assault upon Melkor, whose stronghold was in the North beyond Eryd Engrin (the Iron Mountains).” - J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The History of Middle Earth - the War of the Jewels, Volume 11 In summary, Utumno’s gates were behind the Iron Mountains. However, its pits and tunnels probably reached the Iron Mountains or even spots in the Misty Mountains which allowed the Balrog to get there without being noticed. After determining its horizontal position, we will have a look at its even more mysterious vertical position on Arda. Why did the awoken Elves at Cuiviénen see smoke in the north? (Horizontal position on Arda) The following quote created the assumption that Utumno had to be in the northeast of middle earth. It tells the story of the Elves which awoke at Cuiviénen. After the destruction of Utumno, they were on their journey to Valinor: “ […] passing northward about the Sea of Helcar they turned towards the west. Before them great clouds hung still black in the North above the ruins of war [against Utumno], and the stars in that region were hidden.” - J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The Silmarillion After the Battle of Powers (war on Utumno), the Sea of Helcar was clearly in the east of Middle Earth (Ambarkanta Map V). Therefore, the region north of it (Utumno) should be the northeast of middle earth. This is obviously contradictory with the earlier map of Tolkien which I cited earlier (Map IV). Map IV portrayed Utumno in the northwest. So, what is the right horizontal position behind the Iron Mountains? Was Tolkien aware of this issue and gave an answer to this question? Actually, yes, there is a note note in HoME 11: “'(Utumno)... at the western end' > 'at the midmost'. This shift of Utumno eastwards is implied in the hasty note pencilled on the LQ 2 text of Chapter 2, Of Valinor and the Two Trees, in which the story entered that Angband also was built in the ancient days, 'not far from the northwestern shores of the Sea'” - J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The History of Middle Earth - the War of the Jewels, Volume 11 According to this source, this note is from 1958 and therefore much younger than the earlier mentioned maps. Notice that it says “western end”, clearly indicating a change to the horizontal position of Utumno on the map. The note represents the final documented thought of Tolkien on the Location of Utumno. Therefore, Utumno finally returned to its original central location behind the northern mountain range just as displayed in the earliest map. Nonetheless, the quote above from the even younger Silmarillion about the journey of the Elves might still create the image of an Utumno even further to the east. At least on a world like ours. Right here is a rather complex misinterpretation issue according to my analysis. Arda back then was in no way like our world is nowadays. It was flat. This basically means that the cardinal points need to be interpreted differently. On a round world, the northern most part can always be reached simply by going northwards. This is not true for a flat world. A flat world has one single northern most point. To reach it, you always must go to the midmost part of the world and then upwards. Only there is the most northern point of a flat world. The graphic is based on the Atlas of Middle Earth. As we concluded above, Tolkien placed Utumno at the midmost part behind the Iron Mountains. Therefore, Utumno in the north of the flat Arda was always at the “midmost” horizontal position, no matter from which point you were facing north. This part might be not all that easy to understand so please do not hesitate to ask any questions. Melkor’s first and mightiest citadel was probably the most hellish place ever to exits on Middle Earth. The malice and darkness of this place were just unimaginable. I hope this thread brings some light to it! There is just a one real criticism about this statement: The Sea of Helcar was in the east of middle earth. Therefore, the region north of it (Utumno) should be the northeast of middle earth If you look at map IV, from which you draw your conclusion, the inland Sea of Helk(c)ar is not to the east of M-E. It is central and Cuiveinen is to the east of the Sea but still not to the far east of M-E. But this is the mistake of Karen Wynn Fonstad in her "The Atlas of Middle-earth", despite it being an amazing work of cartography. The problem is that while the Ambarkanta Map IV (which is more a diagramatic map than a topographic), the Sea of Helcar and the Sea of Ringil are shown to be in the middle of Endor, in Ambarkanta Map V the West-lands are depicted as larger, because JRRT wanted to show the details of Beleriand. Not to mention how at that phase of the Legendarium the Professor had not yet thought of Eriador, Rhovanion and Gondor (the territory, not the realm), hence when Karen Wynn Fonstad decided to make her Atlas, she simply added these lands between Beleriand and the Sea of Helcar (while having the South Blue Mountains end in the White Mountains), thus greatly enlarging the West-lands. However, she did not consider that based on Ambarkanta Map IV the lands east of the Sea of Helcar were as large as the lands west of it, hence she kept it as it was, and thus the East-lands in her Atlas is many times smaller than the West-lands.

Utumno´s ruins location on the farthest northen regions of Middle-Earth, i.e. the North Pole like-location, benath across a huge and dense large ever-frozen icy desert wasteland, seems much alike the same location and description of Lovecraftian´s lore about Kadath fortess either on the realm of Dreams or at the Antartic regions were both dimensions merge each other. It´s unknown if Tolkien knew about Lovecraft´s lore but for sure he could have known something about a forerunner, maybe "The Night Kingdom" of William Hope Hogdson and its descriptions of a dying waist Earth in darkness and some ruins as dark pyramids were surviving humans gather there.

Damn I miss BFME 1-2 and RotWK, I tried many times to reinstall them from internet guidelines but I never succeeded

As it´s clearly overstated that Angband was the western fortess of Melkor, when compared with Utumno, so he could have a better watch over closer to his foes on the Western side of Arda at Aman, and as we know settled a big influence over Beleriand under the south of it, there seems that Utumno was farther in the east side of Middle Earth closer to both the regions where the Elves first arose at the Cuiviennen region as they kinda got easily captured by Melkor´s minions and to became then later corrupted and disgraced to create the earliest Orcs as well. Also as the Men got some earlier influence from Melkor on the East as he kinda was on Angband all time, when the Beleriand elvish kingdoms and domains settled and get their best time then, seems fairer he went back to linger near were his older and bigger fortess was but he never needed to settle back then as his main focus of interest was to face on the West side of Middle-Earth, so Utumno was too much far way from where he needed to be focusing on, and it was kinda useless for his plots then. Back in older times, Utumno was better used and got Angband - ruled by Sauron at the same-time under his command - kinda trusting it was too much far from the Valar´s reach but well, it seems they eventually ventured to go into the East and ruin most of all there. Still its influence remained on whatever was left out of them, either on the Eastern side of Middle-Earth or the remaining known areas of the former Iron Mountains over Utumno, as were the regions of the Angmar kingdom, the Gundabad surroundings filled with Orcs and finally the Grey Mountains with Dragons, specially the Withered Heath. There is so much eerie wickedness there that can´t be overseen as the lasting remaining trait of Utumno´s legacy under his creator.

What's your favourite victory moment and greatest tragedy of the first age?

I always thought maybe under the sea of Rhun and the Valar flooded it ,but nothing to back this up.

I also like to think that in the Late Third Age, maybe just before or during the War of the Ring, The Elves of Lindon organize an Expedition to finally destroy Utumno for good

I’d watch a spinoff where the Dwarves build a submarine!

In my mind, Utumno is located in the Far North, and it just gets discovered one day in the late third age by a Random Lossoth guy

Probably during the War of Wrath the Erid Engrin were practically destroyed, so I think that even if its location was on land in SA and TA, its ruins were utterly destroyed

if middle earth is just our world in the past, then the remnants of utumno are still out there somewhere...

I feel obligated to point out that Tolkien like cyclical history. Carn Dûm was never actually fully destroyed, just like Utumno. Could it be that Carn Dûm was simply what Ultumno was called in the third age?

I think its under the icebay. its shape is strange, and it was probably formed after the war of wrath when its caverns and tunnels collapsed and the ocean flowed in.

aaaand now in the rings of power galadriel finds in deep into forodwaith

Come on Saruman … forget the ring … with your study of the lore go find Utumno and dig up something powerful

Cold drakes...it's still there, and filled with what remains of Morgoth's cold drakes. Going in is like offering yourself up as a sacrifice. 😊 Speaking of dragons, while I can't say "please make the following video?!", because I don't believe that the information needed actually exists, I wish we could have known more about the dragons of Middle Earth. And in this case, I don't mean Smaug, Glaurung,or Ancalogin the Black; they are awesome, but we know their gates. What I wish we knew about was the lesser dragons. Several of the Dwarven Rings of Power were supposedly destroyed by dragon fire, or their masters were slain, and the golden Rings added to their hoards, but it is said that several of the great Dwarven mansions were taken by these wyrms, and them we never hear of them again. We don't even know where they were, nor do we hear tales of epic heroes killing them, and getting rich, or returning said wealth to the Dwarves; surely Gandalf couldn't find such a warrior when planning the quest for Erebor. That could mean several of these beasts still lived on the Third Age, sitting on top of mounds of loot, and it's a shame Tolkien never filled that bit of the legendarium out.

Before someone corrected me, I always thought ruins of utumno was located in Mordor, because utumno is also called Udun and the open field behind the black gates in Mordor is also called Udun.