Groovebox Learning Curves RANKED! // Op-1 M8 Circuit Deluge Octatrack Tracker Sp404Mk2
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Жыл бұрынWe talk alot about features and sound quality, but what about actually learning to use these grooveboxes? In this video, I tell what I think are the hardest and easiest hardware grooveboxes you can pick up nowadays.
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@toddwmac 5 ай бұрын
Love the "return user barrier", so applicable to today's technology across the board. Hope it catches on.
@matthewdavis473 Жыл бұрын
I have 4 kids and I work a lot so your videos hit home. I’ve played guitar for like 30 years and I have been getting into electronic production lately. I always say that when I was younger I had so much time to play but no money for gear. Now I have money for gear and no time to play. Keep making great content
@Bass_Levelz Жыл бұрын
This is the irony of being a responsible adult lol
@LukeLendrum Жыл бұрын
I resemble this comment
@robnzombiz Жыл бұрын
Wait did I wrote this comment? Oh no.. I have only 3 kids
@RyanMasterson83 Жыл бұрын
I’m in the same boat 😂
@kanduvisla Жыл бұрын
So recognizable! I even have the same Witcher 3 experience!
@questionyourbeliefs 10 ай бұрын
The M8 tracker when you pass the barrier wall is insane. Don't let the learning curve stop you. It's a game changer especially with how portable it is. I can make music on it while walking.
@paulatreides0777 8 ай бұрын
Its actually pretty easy I’m 54 and took to its workflow like a duck to water.
@mackenlyparmelee5440 7 ай бұрын
Is it easy to pick up from lsdj?
@emuemu8428 3 ай бұрын
@@mackenlyparmelee5440 yes. It’s directly inspired by. It’s like MEGA lsdj.
@gehadbarghouthi2561 17 күн бұрын
It’s great to know I started out on a hard to learn machine, but I do love the Sp404 Mk2. It’s perfect size to stay on my desk and is also used as an audio interface. Very insightful video, great job
@MidlifeSynthesist 17 күн бұрын
@@gehadbarghouthi2561 thank you!!🙌🏻
@dmanh5144 Жыл бұрын
Music making devices like these all have unique designs that make videos like this absolutely necessary. Learning to use these things belongs in history books as an early 21st century form of self-torture.
@MidlifeSynthesist Жыл бұрын
Hahahaha absolutely! Musical Masoquism is the way😅
@michelvondenhoff9673 Жыл бұрын
@@MidlifeSynthesist DEVO?
@AaronFerenc Жыл бұрын
hahaha
@JayaLove Жыл бұрын
I sold my Force for a mc707, sold it for a deluge, sold it for an iPad. Now I’m jamming away with a variety of easy to use apps like koala sampler and loopy pro. I’m a busy single mom and don’t have lots of time for learning curve or RUB.
@ShaighJosephson Жыл бұрын
You should have kept the Force... Nothing beats it now...
@GuidoGautsch Жыл бұрын
Koala Sampler is such a great app!
@jaytee2266 Жыл бұрын
@@ShaighJosephsonreally? I'm looking around for what to get. And considered force. That new update is pretty serious huh?
@gorillamcguilla2275 Жыл бұрын
I bought a Polyend Tracker, fell in love with it and then decided to buy the Dirtywave M8, I got the dirtee wave in June of 2022 and it is now almost February of 2023 and I am just now understanding how to use chains! This machine is absolutely insane but once something gels with it, it feels like a major victory, like a barrier has been crossed! It's an amazing machine but absolutely no joke whatsoever. It is HARD to get started on.
@jamesstonehouse3448 Жыл бұрын
The new screen on the Deluge totally makes navigation easier and getting to your sample libraries simple. I've broken through some of my worst hang ups (sampling and audio recording) since getting the upgrade done.
@g1rlchild 2 ай бұрын
This video was really useful! The "return user barrier" is the biggest reason why I ended up buying a Tracker Mini instead of an M8. The M8 looks amazing, but I don't want to have to relearn it after getting busy with other things for a while. The Mini is super friendly and has lots of prompts for finding what you're looking for. So thank you for the super helpful video!
@cabe_bedlam Жыл бұрын
Something worth considering for the M8 is that you can get a “demo” version with the M8 headless project. Much lower barrier to entry cost wise at the expense of slickness because it’s, well it’s diy :)
@RhymePractice 2 ай бұрын
This note might make the MPC more fun. The Loop function. Main page Track 01>Transpose set to 1. Program 001>Warp samples> Global tab>note on. Samples tab>pad loop on. For different drum loops, I include them in the same mute group to alternate back and forth.
@bike.krueger 8 ай бұрын
Outstanding video! Your experience with Circuit Rhythm & SP-404 MK2 covers mine 100%! SP was immediate fun when starting off, but after some time it really got annoying. On the other hand, I was sceptical about the missing display on the Rhythm at first. But it turned out to be super accessible, great fun, an instant performer with much better overview over the different patterns, scenes and projects.
@77rgoss Жыл бұрын
Love it! I'm so glad that you coined the phrase "return user barrier". This has been a constant issue, and I'm glad to hear that it is not uncommon. Great content, as usual! Having owned and used many different pieces of kit over the past few years, I've restrained myself from getting an octatrack (despite salivating over its capabilities). Perhaps when I find myself with more uninterrupted blocks of free time. Ha!
@ChristopherOrth Жыл бұрын
"Return user barrier" is a grand name for something that is crucial in picking out gear to use! I hope everyone uses that from now on. Well done! Also important I would say is a condensed fast loop of return barrier, as "usability friction", meaning, how much friction is between the user and the device on an ongoing basis, which leads to wasted time or frustration. Your words at the end are so true about how investing time into learning something is valuable, and actually key to getting out of the device what it actually promises. But some devices just won't mesh with individual users based on the usability friction. Sadly we can't accurately measure this (except in very rare and extreme circumstances!) until we have actually reached that deeper level of understanding and use. I believe this is why many devices maintain a legendary status as "oh wow so powerful!" when really they aren't, simply because they have a much steeper learning curve so less people ever accurately can gauge their true capabilities and usability friction (I'm mostly looking at you, Octatrack).
@augustmiles Жыл бұрын
Appreciate this, great idea for this video! These factors are really important for people to consider!
@RemyDAgostino Ай бұрын
Learning curve is also influenced by how enjoyable it is to go deeper with the instrument. I think that needs to be accounted for in some way. For me, the Circuit was very easy to learn and it was also very inspiring to play with all of it's increasingly complex features like parameter automation, sample flip, delay transitions. It really made me want to master it. I feel like by comparison I was always forcing my way through tedious workflows while staring at a tiny screen when trying to go deep on the op-1 with features like resampling, sample slicing, recording in reverse, etc. I wonder how that differed for you with instruments like the M8 and Deluge.
@Sonmz Жыл бұрын
Thank you very much! It's a very good analysis. The three criteria are chosen very sensibly. Particularly important in my opinion is the user return barrier.
@jon_gee Жыл бұрын
Yo man! Love your videos! Super clean, great lighting, and you’re a smooth guy with an excellent voice to listen to. Glad you’re in the game. A writer once told me “do not use the word ‘very’…”there’s always a better way to describe it…like when you use ‘legendary’ vs something like ‘very hard’ etc. love ya man keep it!! I always dig your work!🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 Family life is a huge energy pull…we all appreciate your time.
@jamesbarron5590 Жыл бұрын
I recently sold all of my gear because I never had time to get good at it and switched back to another GAS inducing hobby, photography. Like another post, I’m married and have daughters so no time for music but plenty of opportunities to use my cameras. I had a digitakt, Mother-32, DFAM and various Roland Boutique synths but I did keep one thing, my Dirtywave M8. I waited too long to finally get that bad boy to sell it. I’m still learning it but having just one device has made it easier to spend time on it. If you have never tried it, I would highly recommend it. Even though I’m better at watching KZfaq videos about gear than actually using it, you’ll be shocked at the sounds that come out of it. Plus the portability is awesome. Thanks for the video
@Timber-Wolf Жыл бұрын
I have a few of the instruments you've covered (Elektron, M8, Sp404MkII, Teenage Engineering etc) and whilst I agree with the M8 and Octatrack) I found the SP404MKII the easiest of them all to use and return to. This is probably due to the fact that I had never used a roland SP sampler before and I approached it like a large Pocket Operator (PO33ish) !! just had to figure out the effects buses and that was it. No return issues and the shortcuts seem to have stuck into muscle memory. My personal experience with the most difficult and hardest to return to would have to be my OPZ.
@highlanderes Жыл бұрын
Thank you for this. Confirm my expectation coming from PO’s, when I get a MKII.
@SonicVibe Жыл бұрын
The best groove box for me that i didn't need to look at anything was the Volca sample 2 i just instantly knew how to use it
@Napoleonwilson1973 10 ай бұрын
The M8 is incredible I have taken to the workflow like a duck to water but still it is incredibly deep in it possibilities
@TaiWyban Жыл бұрын
Awesome way of breaking things down for the grooveboxes. I hope more creators make videos in this vein!
@bigkingsha Ай бұрын
Your list is crazy accurate. A few honorable mentions from easiest to hardest ...in my opinion: Korg Volca Sample Teenage Engineering EP 133 K.O. II Roland MC-707 Akai MPC 1010 Music Blackbox Sonicware LoFi 12-XT ...and the big daddy of samplers and learning curves: The notorious Elektron Octatrack. I own them all and I can say without hesitation that the Octatrack is my go-to if I want to be an audiogeneticist and atom-smasher! The Akai MPC is a fundamental and overall solid beat production lab. The MC-707 is a bit TOO deep, but sick. The rest are cute patches and buttons pinned on my vest, but the LoFi 12-Xt is a mini beast to be reckoned with. Its like the problem child of the Octatrack and the MPC.
@ericleary5931 Жыл бұрын
This matrix schema is spot on! applies to everything Software, modern John Deer Tractors, aircraft, and media production tools. I have been thinking about this a lot in terms of the Digitakt and the Wavestate of late. ... don't always like your videos but this one is so cogent to my own experience and analysis it is uncanny. I have also been concerned about "configuration debt" a lot lately to the point of maybe naming a jam that. Another commenter mentions something like 'user friction' that I think is very similar. Good video.
@TheMikeHaskew Жыл бұрын
Your SP MKII take makes me feel so much better! I loved my SX and sold it as soon as they announced the MKII. Then took a year looking until I could get one. In the couple of months I’ve had it, I just feel stuck. Same as you, I can use it like the SX, but everything else seems like a mystery I can’t catch on to.
@petert7807 Жыл бұрын
It definitely dosnt make sense. I had a similar experience, best tip I can give is look for the illuminated buttons and little arrows on the screen to guide you to all the extra features.
@08iwndavidturner82 Жыл бұрын
What a great comparison video. It’s like your in my brain. I love the approach you take with rating all the drum machines. I do the same with a lot of things I’m going to buy. I have an mpc 1000 and set up a live jam rig with some synths my pain come when I would then need to bounce my tracks onto the daw to create an actual track. Not touching the daw for so long usability for me was hard to return. So for the past 6 months I have found myself just using the daw as I’m not super good with making my own synth patch’s say for example I needed a nice piano I didn’t have the synth on hand so having a daw and some ready to go drums I can create pretty good now. Never thought I would go back to the daw for so long. Now I’m workshopping ideas on how I can set my synths up to be able to turn on at a switch an create fast. Maybe I need a stand. Limited space and 3 kids. Time is valuable and most of the time I make music in the laptop while kids are watching movies or playing outside. So portability is also something I have noticed I need. Anyone got any tips or help. Let me know. :)
@MkUltra612 Жыл бұрын
I enjoyed this, thanks for the video! Love the concept of a Return User Barrier. Deluge is the only one on the list I have, and I've been using Jamuary as an excuse to dive a bit deeper and learn it better.
@freezerman5871 Жыл бұрын
The return user barrier problem eventually was the reason I got rid of the Octatrak. But the M8 was something that really has gotten me going. It was my second tracker (I had the Polyend tracker) and found it very easy to grasp at first. I think it has a very strong internal logic, and the return to the M8 is very easy. It is now my preferred box.
@willp3754 Жыл бұрын
Goes to show how people's experiences can be different. You might have gelled with the M8 right away. I don't have as much of a return user barrier with the Octatrack anymore, but I have used it a LOT. At this point I am not sure learning it was worth the effort, but I already made the effort, so I keep using it
@jjurksztowicz Жыл бұрын
Yep, same experience. M8 has a bit of an initial curve, but now that I know it I can pick it up after a long break and be productive within 5 minutes. The muscle memory is strong!
@bassguitar2709 11 ай бұрын
Swing is super easy on the OctaTrack, not so much on the M8, even when you menu dive and set it, the swing sounds lifeless
@minimal.camera Жыл бұрын
Nice! I like this format, I'll add a few from my experience: Elektron Model:Samples - Jam: High, Curve: Low, Return: Medium Novation Circuit OG - Jam: High, Curve: Medium, Return: High Elektron Digitone - Jam: Medium, Curve: High, Return: Medium Elektron Syntakt - Jam: Very High, Curve: Low, Return: Medium PO-32 Tonic - Jam: Very High, Curve: Medium, Return: Low What I've learned from most of these devices is that having a good UI and screen is the most important aspect for pretty much all of these ratings. If the screen clearly shows where you are and what you can do there, it's all good. If the screen is cryptic or non-existent, then it doesn't work for me. Elektron does a very good job with their screens and front panel labeling. There's a lot to be said for your past experience too. I tried the SP-404 MK2 as my first time with a 404, and was totally lost. Finger drumming was easy, but no play/pause buttons? Do I really have to load samples tediously one at a time? The sequencer and FX buses just didn't make sense to me, and it wasn't fitting with the rest of my setup, so I decided to move on from it after about 1.5 months. Shame, because the size, feel, and portability on that one is top notch.
@subiesojourner777 Жыл бұрын
I have an M8 and yes it can be a bit, daunting, but this is one amazing little box. Tim at Dirtywave continues to roll out updates, the latest being 3.03 (I think) and this little beast keeps getting better and better.
@bassguitar2709 11 ай бұрын
lack of easy Swing was a NO for me, sure it does lots of stuff, but that UI is painful
@cjlewis79 7 ай бұрын
3.2.7 now. It’s such an amazing device that keeps expanding.
@pbrianmckechnie Жыл бұрын
Fantastic video, great listing mechanism. Love it!
@mattypaxton Жыл бұрын
having fun seeing this unfold and hearing your thoughts!
@henrytheworst Жыл бұрын
It’s nice to hear non-linear thoughts about gear. It makes sense after using or watching videos of gear that some of these are central instruments rather than extra tools.
@digitalhillbilly8863 Жыл бұрын
When I retired I bought a MC-707, MPC Live 2, and Digitakt. I was shocked at how much trouble I had with the MPC. Nothing worked as expected and every step seemed to be a battle. The 707 seemed logical, and the Digitakt taught me the Elektron system after a disastrous try at the Octatrak. I did not do as well with the Circuit as you did. The total absence of a screen for feedback threw me.
@mrrafsk Жыл бұрын
My experience with an op1. Was different, I was on it most days for 6m. I found the Deluge and Rythm easier to initially get on with that the op-1. Great video. Thanks.
@justjoeblow420 Жыл бұрын
The two out of the ones you covered I've personally considered the most is the Deluge and the M8. But ironically I found a good groovebox solution in the least likely of places that has worked well for me, and that's SunVox on my Steam Deck I was buying a Deck for gaming anyways and now some how between samples and instruments built up for SunVox I've swallowed multiple gigabytes of storage on my Steam Deck with it.The learning curve is high with it though as months later of using it off and on I still have found and regularly figure out things I didn't know a week or two ago. Part of this comes from the sheer raw power under the hood. You can do stuff as complex as parallel effects routing and mixing for a single source and the only real limits SunVox can have is when you run out of CPU power on what ever device you are running it on, which could be a lot of things as it has a huge list of supported platforms. I really suggest any one with a tablet (tablet version is like 5$ US) or some free time to check out the PC version it's well worth a shot if you don't mind the tracker based sequencers.
@SURCOlive Жыл бұрын
Great idea for a video. Loved it! Thanks!
@itsROMPERS... Жыл бұрын
Basic prices Op-1: $2000 Circuit rhythm: $400 Tracker: $700 Sp404mk2: $500 Deluge: $1400 if you can find it Octatrack: $1500 Play: $800 M8: $600 Prices are approx, i just did this for reference, could be more or less.
@GreatistheWorld Жыл бұрын
Great video man! Starting with pocket operators seems to work out or it doesn’t. I loved trying to learn it up to a point but working on a device that’s 100% memorized button combinations was a real problem for me. It still stays in mind, and I hope it can revisit my po-20 and work it out. I finally shelled out for a used OP-1 a few years ago and kinda hate to say it, but it was almost everything I thought it would be. It’s a joy enough to just explore and play with that it really eased any tension/overconcentration around learning, and the screen isn’t just helpful, it’s super clear in the way it conveys information.
@magnificent_gaming 9 ай бұрын
Dude, this is a spectacular video man. Exquisite, I want all of them but the one I'll be starting with is 404MK Roland
Жыл бұрын
I was smiling when you talked about the Octatrack 😊. Despite many years of frustration I would never sell it. Tried mc707 as an alternative but that thing is totally without logic! Returned to Octa fast. Didn’t find the op-1 that easy to learn though. Had it twice but never learned it.
@jeffryarchambeau5441 Жыл бұрын
I really agree with your ranking of the OP-1. I first bought a 1010 BlackBox based on specs, but didn't really enjoy making music on it. This summer I finally got a used OP-1. Now my BB is the "undo" for my OP-1. It's pretty easy to bounce tracks back and forth, for about the same total cost as a new OP-1. Jorb gave me the courage to buy a used OP-1, seeing that it's totally repairable.
@AlexIsASeraphim Жыл бұрын
Thanx mls. Much appreciated. As a beginner dwelling in the budget (shallow) end of the pool, I found the circuit tracks had the least initial friction compared with the mc 101. That experience has led me to start saving for a multitrack mixer / recorder that has midi like the tascam 12. I'm thinking it would be easier and less fiddly to initially record the stand alone groove box then layer on additional sounds later. Apologies to the hardware jam community who think this is blasphemous.
@LillySchwartz Жыл бұрын
Great list and very useful indeed! I don't have a single one of these boxes, precisely because they all seem deep and like I would forget how to use them all the time. The Return User Barrier is definitely a thing for me because I like to go in bouts of 1-3 months on one instrument and see what comes out of it, then I switch things up and learn something else. I might not come back to it for half a year and by that time it will all be long forgotten again. I do think the OP-1 might be a good fit for me too, so I'll keep that in mind for the future.
@BrentODell Жыл бұрын
Re: Witcher III, I hear you there! I've played the first part of the game SO many times because, as you said, it's really hard to drop back in after being away a while! :)
@cjlewis79 Жыл бұрын
I wanted to like my OP-1 but I struggled with it and had to sell it. :( The M-8 though, wow for as complex as it is, it is REALLY fun to play with!
@pn_oio2891 Жыл бұрын
As a relativly new synth user I can confirm that the OLED-upgrade in the Deluge ist really a gamechanger and simplifies many things dramatically. Things have suddenly names.. 😄
@willp3754 Жыл бұрын
I have the old Deluge. Maybe someday I will get the screen upgrade but hard to see the benefit. I wish Synthstrom would work on improving the firmware instead... there are requests people have been making for years, like being able to midi learn the master fx
@RJ_Eckie Жыл бұрын
I need to get the OLED! The 4 hard-to-read characters are… not ideal 😅
@Michael_Smith-Red_No.5 Жыл бұрын
@@willp3754 I have both the old and new display types, and the OLED is a lot easier to read at more angles, and in varying light conditions. Plus, it's nice to see what I'm actually doing without trying to remember cryptic abbreviations.
@willp3754 Жыл бұрын
I'm sure the OLED is better, I just don't read the display enough for it to matter
@cademosley4886 10 ай бұрын
Just to give an update to this comment, the Deluge's firmware has been open sourced now, so now there should be a whole community of modders that can add features over time, and you can even mix and match new features that you like.
@stretchbrah5627 Жыл бұрын
Excellent, eloquent, and perfectly paced video as usual! Your content always makes me feel like just sitting down and making the things I enjoy. While I have none of the boxes you used (except a headless M8) I do have an EMX-1 impulse buy, and an MPC One. While I don't know if you've ever had an EMX, I am interested to hear your thoughts on where the MPC fits in. I have the Bible, and the Manual, and even after working through both I find myself in the indexes more often than I'd care to admit (mainly for small things though) Stay awesome!
@gmcenroe 29 күн бұрын
Also as a mid to late life synthesist I remember when I first searched for the OP-1 because it was sold out everywhere. Luckily I found one in South San Francisco at a DJ equipment shop and rushed there to buy it. Still like it and its great portability. Other items that you covered that I am interested in is the Polyend Tracker and maybe some day the Octatrack. Thanks for your rating of these devices.
@CaidicusProductions Жыл бұрын
What a great idea for a video, and thus, what a great video it is. Thanks Mid!
@entropyroshan9846 Жыл бұрын
M8! I hear ya man. I ran up the hill and I’m still climbing but I’m all in. Really nice center piece to a collection of micro synths that fit in a small bag but pack a big punch (Paripi destroyer, NTS-1, Soma RoAT, Intech Studio EN-016 combined with a Kaos pad)!
@C0llinsW0rth. 2 ай бұрын
I really enjoy this style of video; it's a meaningful conversation to have when there is a lot of GAS out there in the world and a ton of choices. I would have liked to have seen the EP-133 on this list as well, because I do see it as a better device than some of the other ones; regardless, this video is awesome and I thank you for the content. Take care & be well!
@MidlifeSynthesist 2 ай бұрын
Thanks so much!! See you soon🤟🏻🤟🏻
@crowsynth Жыл бұрын
Circuit Tracks for me was the most fun out of the box I had. I am now using a deluge and like you said, the "return barrier" is high when you return after a few months, but the synth engine sounds great and the options feel limitless.
@davidmaynor2855 Жыл бұрын
The RUB is an inspired term/concept! Great content once again.
@rorz999 10 ай бұрын
The main thing this video taught me is that everyone is different. I learned how to use the M8 completely (aside from tables) in about an hour. To put it above the Octatrack in terms of learning curve is insane to me. I'd honestly say it's easier to learn than the OP-1. I did have prior experience of using some trackers though (Renoise, Polyend Tracker)
@NoiseCommander3DS 6 ай бұрын
I remember watching this video when it came out. Now I am watching it again, having recently purchased the M8. The learning curve, I did not perceive as harshly as you, I found learning the buttons and everything literally felt like playing a game, a good one. It may be advantageous that I am no stranger to trackers prior. I love it thus far, although I would like it to have a screen allowing to play/record multiple drum pads without connecting a midi controller.
@auntjenifer7774 Жыл бұрын
I was worried about learning curve on a big ticket item like these so I ended up getting the MPC2 live as it ticked all the boxes and seemed easy to use ! The was true indeed, I figured out how to use it right out of the box and it is my first groove box synthesizer drum machine !
@davidsanfeliumarco9664 Жыл бұрын
Love your channel man!!🖤
@ryejack 7 ай бұрын
Thanks, loved the video! I'm fairly new to using groove boxes, so this sort of video is incredibly useful. On a whim, I purchased a Woovebox and I'm waiting for it to arrive. I would love to know how the Woovebox hold up to your rating scale.
@Farold_Haltermeyer Ай бұрын
Your greatest video ever, thanks! Keep updating it :)
@raytbrown2 Жыл бұрын
Totally agree with the SP-404, wherein the learning curve and return barrier were the exact reason I got rid of it after 4 months as I just didn't have the time or energy to continue to learn & use the device -- no matter how cool it is/was for me to have one. Plus it chewed-up batteries, so I can't really call it "portable".
@DarkLord61636 Жыл бұрын
I love the return user metric! That's been a frequent issue for me as I LOVE jumping around from groovebox to groovebox. My main is the Deluge, but after the LED screen announcement, I set it aside telling myself I'll dive into the deeper features after my upgrade. Many months later & I'm still months away from my upgrade, so I pulled it out feeling inspired, only to realize I couldn't remember very much of anything. You've got me more interested in the Octotrack, though! I'm considering returning my MC101 [I love it, but it just doesn't really seem to fit into my workflow, other than the volume sliders which I love]. Maybe I'll impulse buy an Octotrack after!
@MidlifeSynthesist Жыл бұрын
I believe Octatrack has a bad rep because when it came out there was little info about it except for the manual. Nowadays you have the @synthdawg manual and the @ezbot channel, it’s way more accesible! Don’t fear it! Cheers my friend!
@avrilcadabra Жыл бұрын
I get that all the time with games. I think each person is a bit different with what makes sense to people. I find mpc/force pretty confusing but the M8 was pretty easy to pick up. But I was fluent in hex and used a few trackers before over the decades. After using the m8 daily for years now its burnt into my soul I don't think it would be possible for me to forget.
@chrisb3389 Жыл бұрын
Good analysis. My only official groovebox I've tried is my Roland MC-707. That ended up being a wise choice, as it's pretty easy and intuitive to get up and jamming and crank out ideas faster than I would on a more complex box or a DAW. While being quick to learn the basics, the deeper functionality definitely takes a while to master. Things like using the drum+compressor tracks or the master multi-band compression or scatter effects or automation definitely take a deeper dive. I do feel that once you learn something well enough and step away for a while, it's not too hard to remember how you did it. I tend to take notes to help my old man brain just in case. As tempting as an MC-101 is for size, I could see how the smaller screen and sub-menus might make it less intuitive. My other sort-of groobebox is a 1010music Blackbox Sampler. Because it is more limited in depth, it is sometimes less intimidating to just jump on and come up with something cool. The only downside is that when they overhaul UI elements with a firmware update, you kind of have to throw some of the former screen/menu memory out of the window. Either way, being able to multi-sample 707 tones into it and play on a much smaller device is cool and it handles longer samples that the 707 can't. To relax the MPC fans out there, I assume you left those off because they are samplers first with groovebox capabilities. It also might be the lack of buttons, as most grooveboxes you mentioned are button intensive.
@georgesbahia Жыл бұрын
Magnifique très bien expliqué et souvent on oublié comment ça marche. Merci
@mrobinson8190 Жыл бұрын
Mighty fine video mate!
@willswitchcraft 7 ай бұрын
Interesting perspective.......cool upload.......BTWthe new screen on the Deluge is a real game changer in so many ways - a massive improvement.........and if you think you had a little trouble remembering things before, you should upload all the new, Open Source, Community Firmware update.....loads of improvements to all sorts of things, from Grain FX, finally some serious Digital Delay parameters, a whole new Grid for working, and much, much more...................
@RussMullins Жыл бұрын
Fantastic breakdown!
@SimonMenu Жыл бұрын
Thank you for such a great video. I regret you did not include the Syntakt. In my point of view, she is easy to learn, very powerfull with a low return barrier. (maybe i am a bit bias, i am used to Elektron workflow for years).
@samprock Жыл бұрын
Great overview and inventing RUB is totally brill! (I also called it DSI - dust collecting index, sorry Sequential :) concept is great for rating s/w plugs as well. My short list (after returning/selling bunch, incl. not Akai and Rolands) is: 1. Maschine+ - instant jammin’, flat learning curve, cus all labeled and screens are large, so the pads. If I do not play for a while because busy with life, it will be the one I return to turn on. So this is studio/home choice of groovebox. DAW controller for Live and instruments within Live. Also one travels with me to beach vacation, totally awesome for that. Sitting on coffee table and I can have a private moment …. because it’s a vacation. 2. OP-Z is my pocket and always in my backpack choice. No time to start a track. Learning curve you would think should be high, but you don’t feel it. Basics are right there with buttons and LEDs to make an Instant Tune. I would separate what it takes to make simple ide and get around device from more advanced tweaks. OP-Z is Cup of Ramen (good quality, expensive one lol). Phone is your screen and a manual, if you need anything. Speaking of a phone. 3. Phone is my other instrument. You always have it on you. Korg Gadget is too handy, deep with sound design AND building a full song. I have my projects from day one of its release, no memory card, num of project or number of tracks limitation. Some tracks I literally make for years. Not because it’s hard, otherwise I like some tune so much, so composing them across months and years when inspiration strikes to add a layer or tweak something. Too many of my tracks, even if eventually exported to .alp and played with analog synths or guitar, were conceived on my iPhone. One point about phone as groovebox of course - there is never lack of new apps, AUv3, and updates that can satisfy your GAS. It’s WAY cheaper to get something new with few ducats, comparing to computer plugs or expensive hardware. XKey Air or Keystep everyone has, or Launchpad or any midi-controller, work perfect with Gadget or a mobile DAW of your choice. Good overview and subject mate! I feel music corps making new groveboxes will decline, settling, so it can a good guide for new musicians, who were lucky to miss the race buying ‘em all, now can just watch reviews and pick one :)
@dreamdealer Жыл бұрын
The Octatrack is just like Elden Ring, the hardest one of its field, but the most rewarding by far. Great video.
@aikighost Жыл бұрын
I totally disagree, the octa is awkward to learn to use and even when you master it, its "meh" for anything other than glitchy shit. The MPC one/live/X are much better (and actually deeper) in basically every way for most genres of electronic music.
@dreamdealer Жыл бұрын
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
@nebulance4289 Жыл бұрын
MPC is a much different market then the Octatrack. I don’t think anyone getting an Octatrack sits there and goes “you know, id rather use the computer with drum pads.” The octatrack does stereo resampling, master sequencing, drums, master effects and performance changes. While its true the MPC is deeper, its so much more like just a computer, in a way that directly clashes with the workflow of the average Octatrack user.
@aikighost Жыл бұрын
@@nebulance4289 mpc workflow is just better in every way, the FX are better the plugins are great, everything about it is superior.
@nebulance4289 Жыл бұрын
@@aikighost I don’t doubt its plugins are better. I’m saying that this video sold the octatrack as a “groovebox” which it really isn’t, and didn’t include the MPC because it is quite literally a computer with a proprietary DAW, they’re not really comparable. Those people that are using an Octatrack, really aren’t going to use it in the way you use a MPC, especially one of the huge MPC X models.
@VJFranzK Жыл бұрын
Good discussion. I still think of Electribes (1 and X more than 2) as being the easiest machines I really got to like! (As well as the RC505 Looper and Kaoss Pad 3) MPC is also easy to get started on, but a full DAW in a box to learn later.
@benjaminbrodie9801 Жыл бұрын
Drum roll ladies and gentlemen...and the winner is Koala! Nice rundown of the options available. Can't go wrong with SP404 or Novation Circuit.
@JayaLove Жыл бұрын
Koala is dead easy. I have it on my ipad and LOVE it.
@BobbyGeneric145 Жыл бұрын
If koala made a physical unit for 10 grand I'd buy it. I use koala to edit my samples before moving them to the sp404mk2
@bux77 Жыл бұрын
The MC-707 is one of my faves as it was really quick to get going and very intuitive for me to use.
@aikighost Жыл бұрын
I really like the mc707 its just a shame they made the synth editing so awkward. Needs more knobs :)
@chipsngravy321 Жыл бұрын
Fantastic video as usual, top info. I don't own any of the groove boxes on your list but I have struggled (and still am struggling) with the MPC one. I own a Digitakt, which after watching various tutorials (thanks True Cuckoo) I got to grips with fairly quickly. I come from a guitar back ground and only embraced the synth/Eurorack/groove box thing in 2019 and at the moment the MPC One is the most frustrating, and glitchy piece of equipment I have owned. It doesn't seem to matter how many tutorials I watch, it just doesn't go in. Currently I'm seriously considering selling it., I find myself watching in awe some of the users on KZfaq who seem to bang out interesting good music on this machine with ease. More effort required on my behalf I think.
@shifteleven Жыл бұрын
FWIW - sometimes gear just doesn’t click with folks and that’s totally fine In the list here, I’ve tried the Polyend Tracker and the Deluge. The Deluge was listed as harder on this list - but it ultimately clicked with me more that the difficulty isn’t a barrier for me making bloops and bleeps. The “easier” Tracker though - that doesn’t really gel with me for whatever reason - even though I know how to use it and whatnot.
@wellurban Жыл бұрын
The OLED screen on the Deluge definitely makes it much easier to navigate songs, samples and synths. It helps a bit with other parameters, but surprisingly I’ve found that it makes little difference with the synth engines, which I always found relatively easy to navigate (as long as I have my glasses and can read the labels by the pads!). The bits where I’ve struggled when coming back to it are the fine details of the arranger and especially working with audio clips and the looper. Those rely on some very specific button combos that need constant practice to get used to. It’s like Ron Cavagnaro says in his excellent “boot camp” videos: a little practice every day will eventually make it second nature, but that gets tricky if you have lots of gear and limited time.
@willp3754 Жыл бұрын
Ron Cavagnaro's deluge videos are so helpful, he shows excellent examples. The print manual is pretty good but his demonstrations are even better
@thomasm8077 Жыл бұрын
Awesome vid. I would say that the Polyend Play has been the easiest to learn. And it is for sure a pick up and Jam once you load some samples in.
@1000Crickets Жыл бұрын
"Return user barrier"! I'm writing this one down. Great video, as usual 🙌
@MidlifeSynthesist Жыл бұрын
Thanks so much my friend!! Hope it catches on lol
@thenamelessastronaut Жыл бұрын
never got my hands on an octratrack and I don't think it will ever happen, but it's always nice to see people playing around with it. only a few things are more interesting than seeing people playing this dark souls of music gear device.
@TheNormalUniverse Жыл бұрын
I like how you point out the return user issue. To me that’s the biggest problem. Easy to learn something when it’s new. Harder to pick it up again after a few weeks
@noisetheorem Жыл бұрын
On the Octatrack: Ive had one since they were released, and I still figure out new stuff. The button layout on the MKII makes it MUCH easier to remember how to use it from session to session.
@lanceholland Жыл бұрын
This is a helpful video. After starting w/IOS and computer-based synths/groove boxes, my first hardware device was the OP-Z. After watching a few videos, it was reasonably easy to use, and pairing it to the phone aided the transition. Yet, after putting it down for a while, I forgot much of what I've learned. I'd rate it: Initial Jammability: Medium, Learning Curve: Medium, Return Barrier: Medium. Since then, I'd picked up a Deluge (influenced by videos on this channel). I'd have to agree with your rating but add another complication - the text on the buttons is nearly illegible, creating a barrier to deeper learning...and the original display is nearly useless. This problem is exacerbated as the faceplate text (if you can see it) doesn't align with the current firmware. I know there are aftermarket stick-on faceplates with hints but even that text is hard to read as it needs to be tiny to fit. And, I'd elevate its Return User Barrier to Very High. As cool as the Deluge is, I'll probably sell it. Inbound is an OP-1 OG....hopefully, this will address my frustrations with the Deluge.
@martinthompson2584 Жыл бұрын
Awesome comparison. I still find the Deluge the best for immediacy. The basics are just so intuitive, though it's extremely deep. If it just had something like the MC101 synth engine in it, I'd never use anything else.
@AnomieDomine 4 ай бұрын
Return user barrier needs to be adopted across the board... Same thing happened to me with Witcher 3 and half of the other things I start
@Crates-Media Жыл бұрын
I can't wait to find a device that has higher scores in all of these categories. Unfortunately, those aren't in great supply. However, I do find that I get pretty good marks in all areas of your rubric by using the Boss RC-505 and do things vocally. That gets me jamming quickly, the learning curve is minimal, and it's always fun to come back to. Thanks for the video!
@rhughes808 Жыл бұрын
I like the concept of the return user barrier. It's a real thing.
@richardsaffle Жыл бұрын
I’ve never used any of these devices, so I won’t argue w/ you whether your list is “correct” or not. But these were your experiences, so if somebody enjoys your channel, & sees your workflow, then they can get a feel for how that device works. & I appreciate that, being a general novice w/ synths/groove boxes…
@thesnipecatcher116 Жыл бұрын
I only own the Octatrack and M8 of the boxes you mentioned. I owned a Digitakt before the Octatrack and still found the learning curve to be a nightmare! Ironically, I did manage to get a full track done by the second day. I made the classic blunder of trying to learn everything right off the bat. The first two weeks I wanted to set it on fire and throw it off a cliff! Now, I still think it’s one of the coolest machines ever invented and the RUB ain’t bad at all for me. It’s so worth the struggle. With the M8, I knew the learning curve was going to be tough as I’d never really used a tracker. Turned it on and had no idea what I was even looking at. Found a great tutorial by @electronisound that was just on the subject of loading samples, making a beat and resampling all the drums onto one track. He was slow and deliberate, going over and over important functions. By the time I finished the tutorial I had a good working idea of the basic functions and have written tons of music on the thing. Which brings up the point… How often do you get finished tracks you’re happy with on each groovebox? Not just pattern jams with mutes and unmutes, but real tracks your pleased with? For me, the M8 rates very highly. So easy and fun to make full, complex arrangements. Genius device. Octatrack is no slouch there as well, plus the Octatrack’s midi sequencer is great, I think
@bassguitar2709 11 ай бұрын
OctaTrack after you figure it out is incredible, I'd never switch
@ickederda9296 Жыл бұрын
Thank you for this very informative video! If course my view differs a bit- particularly on the M8, but that due to the fact that I've been using trackers back since almost the "great days of yore", starting out on Screamtracker 2, Fasttracker II (on floppy disk) on to Impulse Tracker, Jeskola Buzz, and about ten years ago SunVox. (to name just a few) So the M8 was a revelation- even though it still took me about a week to be able to use it fluently. Maybe because I've never used LSDJ. Now I have a compact MIDI keyboard hooked up (I like to sketch out my melodies on keys or strings), a Zoom H1 as Mic, and a pair of headphones. What I like most about it is the fact that the software is not only very logical and under active development. Also bugs get fixed as features get added (MPC Live users, can you feel me?). The discord community is a really nice place full of helpful people, and if you want, you can even talk to the creator himself. Also if you're looking for presets: have a look there as well. Although I bought the M8 primary as a sampler, I find myself using the onboard sound engines almost exclusively. The effects sound really good, and the "mastering" effects make it possible to create a quite solid sounding song directly out of this thing. If you want more, you can always post-process the individual tracks in your DAW. I wouldn't perform live on it, because I like knobs, faders and pads to knock on, but that comes down to personal preference. When deciding on which groove box to buy I think the most difficult part is, you have to lay your hands on one to really know which one is right. That being said I really like your "return user barrier", and on my part I can say it's quite low for the M8. I've used it for a month, left it for a month. There were some quite complicated shortcuts which I couldn't remember, and they weren't on the cheat sheet. So I wrote them on a piece of paper and put them into the M8s bag ;)
@iShredStreets Жыл бұрын
Omg a Fasttracker II user. Shout out to you.
@RedShade151 Жыл бұрын
The EMX1 was my first groovebox and always stuck around while I sold others that came and went. It’s probably one of the most frustrating to learn, especially with its very strange limitations, you kind of have to know it’s insides and out like the back of your hand to get it to work. But the whole thing became muscle memory. I find myself loading sets off the memory card without thinking, and then wondering how the hell I even did it. The menus somehow follow the same way, I forget how I got there, but still did if I don’t think. Super hard to produce on, but really fun to mess around with. The vacuum tubes make it super good for sawbasses on it’s own.
@VJFranzK Жыл бұрын
What's so difficult? I really like that control panel with it's dedicated knobs! Let's keep asking for a similar Electribe 3!
@aptudo Жыл бұрын
Superb, frequently overlooked topic. Budget-tier workstations are also worth a look if portability isn't a requirement. I bought a like-new Roland FA-06 for $1000 in 2020 and have never been more productive with an instrument. My ratings using your criteria: Initial jammability = Medium (only because it's linear rather than loop-based), Learning curve = Low (because, although deep, everything's labeled and there's a big screen), Return User Barrier = Very Low (for the same reason).
@hernanvergara9313 Жыл бұрын
Hi, thanks for the video and your rankings. I think that the SP404 and the Circuit Rhythm are more towards the sampler end. The Circuit Tracks is a groovebox. The Roland MC-01 is a groovebox. At home I have the Sonicware Liven lo-fi 12, and a Roland Verselab. Interesting machines, but menu diving galore. Cheet
@surrealchemist 10 ай бұрын
I ordered an SP404 and then the Polyend Tracker went on sale a couple days later before I even dug that much into it. I thought the tracker was going to be harder to get used to but it surprised me. I never used the previous 404 so it will take some more learning, but it does some things quite well. Its more of a performance machine and the FX are great, so I plan on keeping it.
@RichardGroulx Жыл бұрын
Good call on the user return barrier. I've sold a lot of gear over the years because of it.
@JayaLove Жыл бұрын
Same
@daneguitarist1 Жыл бұрын
oh man my girl the sp404mk2 ohh man, i love that thing all of the "negatives" are also positives with it, I totally agree with our list the mk2 is very difficult to master, but that makes it so amazing, cause, by the time you get a few things going, you find another great thing and try to master that also the deluge looks amazing, i will eventually have one of those, but hopefully not for a few years haha
@indigosnow_ Жыл бұрын
The return user barrier is such a great additional metric. I swear I love the OP-Z but I don't ever have enough time to play consistently so I'm always having to relearn things before jamming out. Still an amazing little music box
@tablaninja Жыл бұрын
Same here!! Exactly. But I do love it.
@yarobrock 10 ай бұрын
I had one for 3 years and it never clicked. Enthusiastically enjoying the M8 now.
@RikMaxSpeed Жыл бұрын
So many more groove boxes you could cover. Personally I really like the Roland MC-707 which has high out-of-the-box jammability.
@rainer3755 Жыл бұрын
it’s so weird how differently everyones brain work. i’ve got to a very comfortable point with syntakt in a few days and started playing live shows with it after a couple of months, yet i’ve had my op-1 for around two years and i still haven’t made anything useful with the 4 track (i do use it with daw all the time though) and the sp mkii? i am still thinking about selling it because i can only use it as external fx box, i’ve spent full 4 hour train ride trying to figure out how to loop stuff efficently. great video, thanks ⚡️
@kylesilver844 Жыл бұрын
Thanks. Would love to see you do this with some other gear. Really like the RUB metric.
@MidlifeSynthesist Жыл бұрын
Thank you my friend!🤟🏻 I’ll try to use it in the future😁
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