What an incredible video. It absolutely blew my mind and has broadened my perspective on the welfare system as a whole.

Friedman and Sowell in the same room.. What I would have given to spend an hour talking to them..

The most important concept was mentioned in passing by Milton Friedman. No government program is ever cancelled. Even if they fail the response is to provide more funding. The past example is government run schools - there is a constant call for more funding no matter how poorly they perform.

"It is very hard to achieve good objectives through bad means." ~Milton Friedman

id hate to get into an argument with Thomas Sowell, the guy would cut you in half

"Only 12% of the families are not intact." This was in the 1970s, and now 40% of ALL children are born out of wedlock and 1/3rd, yes 1 in 3, of children live in single parent homes. But people like this lady are still arguing how beneficial the welfare state is. SMH.

The Shirky Principle: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution".

One of the interesting thing about this discussion is how civil everyone is to each other. Where are the screaming SJW's calling anyone who disagrees bigot/racist/misogynist/homophobe ? You might disagree with old school leftists but at least they could hold a discussion and debate the issues with going in to complete meltdown.

Thomas Sowell is teaching these Socialists a lesson!

Appeal to emotion. The best argument for a welfare state.

i wish Milton Friedman was alive

I've never honestly thought this deeply about how receiving welfare negatively effects individuals. I believe FDR had great intentions creating programs like public works, but it definitely fosters a sense of dependency in today's society with the way programs and policies are implemented. When Friedman mentioned that people may reject employment opportunities because they fear that they may lose their job, and it may take 6 months for them to begin receiving benefits again, it made me start thinking. Before watching this video I did not truly agree that the welfare state fostered a sense of dependency among beneficiaries, but my opinion was changed after viewing this.

7:40 "when the private sector failed" and then goes on to list all the areas in which government fucked up everything.

Thomas Sowell is amazing.

Thomas_Sowell == Boss

What Mr. Friedman did not state, but his sentiments imply, is that charitable giving, be it money, time, compassionate assistance and the like, nourishes and fulfills a very fundamental human and societal need. It is through giving freely that our individual dignity is sanctified; not through collective, coerced transfer of value from producers to non-producers. Welfare, and all its subsidiary and ancillary components, is, and always was meant to be, a massive vote-buying and wealth allocation scheme - socialism/communism - the charity and compassion elements of which are mere window-dressing to mask the real mission.

Welfare state is the reason why immigration today is a huge topic, without the welfare state, and subsidies to all parts of life people,could immigrate and work, and no one would care. Instead they immigrate and take and the tax payer is burdened without recourse. This is why we need welfare reform before we can have immigration reform.

Thomas Sowell. What an amazing deep thinker. A wise man who has his finger on the pulse of humanity and social interaction. I wish, one day, he could be President of the USA.

I propose Milton Friedman had one of the greatest mind in the last century. If only people had listened more.

this people sound smarter than todays

"People who get on welfare are treated like children and not like responsible adults and they are trapped in the system." This is a true statement. M. Taylor

Why is Milton Friedman always smiling like he is high on weed? I am his fan btw.

I've watched a number of videos featuring Thomas Sowell and/or Milton Friedman posted on this and other channels.and I have to say they are incredibly informative and interesting. I have only one complaint. I wish the descriptions included the original air dates. I watched a complete episode of Donahue featuring Dr. Friedman. After some googling, I was able to learn the video was from 1979 which of course greatly impacted the questions because of the rampant hyper-inflation of the day. The video above is apparently from the 1970's or very early 80's. I am simply curious about a more exact date. Actually, I have one additional complaint. These videos (at least some of them) are not required viewing for our nation's high school and/or college students. At least some of them should be.

Much nicer hearing knowledgable arguments

People were smarter back then. We have gone backwards during the age of information.

He forgets that is was the result of the failure of the Federal Reserve to do what it was suppose to do, to ensure that there was sufficient money. The Federal Reserve withdrew the money and that is what caused the crash since no one had any money to make their margin calls. Had their been no Federal Reserve and the Government had not gotten involved, the Depression would have lasted as long as the one in 1920-1921, which was 18 months. There was no Government intervention in that and the system corrected itself. If you look through out the history of the US, you will see that there have been periodic depressions but they only last at most 4 years and are not that sever.

Thomas Sowell and Milton Friedman, man, the great minds of 20th century

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

Ten Sanders supporters watched this video.

Wow. I am impressed with Thomas Sowell. He standed by his positions and believes and was rational and courageus. I didnt like that women, her dead eyes and that she doesnt undestand. The government side would blame the people, not the system they created. I know what is happening now with European Union in Poland. I know people who worked in programs that redistrubuted money to businesses. The corruption there, their helplesness, becouse they needed to work according to measures that were handed to them. They saw people who were taking anvantage of the system, not planing to satisfy any needs of the people. We now hage the same situation here. Governments and UE wants to stere everything, stimulate everything, and even educate businesses. But what they dont see or dont want to see is that the very same money they took away from market is the problem that people are struggling in the first place. Creating program above stealing is not solution. Stop stealing and leave people alone.

I rewatch it from time to time. Love it. Thanks LibertyPen for the upload.

I really enjoy your video's LibertyPen, keep up the good work. The world needs so much more Friedman today than they needed even then!

This is interesting, government bureaucrats trying to argue an impossible argument against two very intelligent men.

Who's to say the bottom 20% are even in poverty...

Great video! Two juggernauts of the past 50 years (Friedman and Sowell) tactfully and respectfully picking apart the welfare system...masterful!

14:38 Mr. Friedman with the Knockout!! A tremendous video that still holds true even today in 2019. Wow!

I think it's time in this country to require the abled-bodied welfare recipient to do work for there welfare checks in America. And if they don't want to work then they should be kicked off the welfare roles (if they're able to work), simple as that. And if you think that's it's not very Christian to say that then read in the bible were it says, 'He who will not work shall not eat'. It doesn't say, 'he who cannot work', it says, 'he who will not work cannot eat'. Ladies and gentlemen, we've got to start asking for responsibility - That gives dignity to welfare recipiency and gets the lazy off the roles. And I'm not talking about a big new government bureaucracy; there are charities, there are public service organizations, there are churches that need help and volunteers for their community charity work and so forth. Lets require welfare recipients to do some time for these organizations for their welfare money, maybe then you'll get some more responsibility from each of them.

To my regret I have to say I've been there. Rejecting welfare in order to try to make it on ya own is a jump into cold water, often times not even knowing whether ya can even swim. I made it work and am supporting my self fairy well now but I still remember how disincentivizing it was. The clerk at teh unemployment office even asked me twice whether I was sure. It's a bad system where ya can have less as a working person than one who doesn't. One of our politicians said the very natural phraze _work has to pay off_ but people laughed at him, it's bizarre. I do get the genuine point of not wanting people to starve and also it's pretty evident that if ya really got nothing, not even money to get ya self look and smell good when going on a job interview, then there's no real option to pull ya self up by the boot strings. The left has a legitimate point there. Tho the current welfare system is horrendous, costly and degrading. I believe we're better off with a negative tax (because it lets people have more if they work and doesn't have the issues of the UBI), that pays out the bare minimum, so people don't starve and can shave, shower and dress for job interviews, got incentive to work and contribute to society and get rid of most of the welfare beurocracy. inb4 the education argument, school vouchers are a promising way that would also force our terrible public school system to reform, I see it as a state investment Sure a lot of libertarians would disagree even with that but that'd already be far better what we got now.

Milton and Sowell are intellectual heavyweights. Milton’s smile at 14:02 is great

James R Dumpson is incredible in this. God why can't we have debates like this no adays?

Welfare state came into being when those who lack responsibility, accountability and discipline. Improve those things and the welfare state will be on it's last leg.

Imagine welfare in the animal kingdom. A bear has made a kill, but he may only eat 75% of it and the rest must be carried to a wolf den and left there. The wolf pack is able bodied, and tho they have pups, the pack family unit could still work together to feed them all. But they choose not to work for a variety of reasons of their own design, so other animals who worked for their meals must now give up some to them. Sounds absurd, doesn't it? I think so, too.

Friedman and Sowell both make some good points in this video. Welfare was initially established to provide short term aide to those who were "failing in society." It was never meant to be a permanent way of life. There are so many that have this "what can you do for me?" mentality and "if I have more children I can get more aide" way of thinking is definitely a learned behavior. It is a cycle that is difficult to break but can be done if people are provided with other options/resources. We are definitely creatures of habit we stick with what we know and are afraid of the unknown. I agree with the notion of welfare being a trap.

Absolutely fantastic Milton and Sowell legends

Thomas sowell so logical

start making those who receive welfare work for it

@Liberty Pen, you are the best, keep these classics coming they are most appreciated!

What Illuminating conversation Is truly sad that we think the government fixes problems And even more sad that we don't know by now the personal responsibility is the best medicine for every human on earth

Its sad how the government treated the people in need of benefits. The people were so scared to get off the benefits because that was basically all they knew. Even if they did find a good job to support their family, they were too scared to take the job because they didn't want to loose their benefits with welfare. The welfare treated them like children!

As a Conservative Libertarian (Austrian School/Chicago School of Economics) I've studied Economics for the last 40 years. Having read all the "Classics" I am of course, a Libertarian. Now, that said, I realized in my mid 40's that in a Dog Eat Dog capitalist society there are a lot of "Dogs that are Eaten". So, being old enough to see how many people simply LOVED FDR I do get the attraction of Socialism. So how do we make sure that the average citizen, that is willing to take a job, lives decently? Re-distribution of wealth certainly doesn't work and the siren song of Communism can never work because it contradicts human nature so what DO we do?? We can't possibly educate our entire population in Free Market Capitalism or Libertarianism so we are fooling ourselves if we continue to tell EVERY child that he or she can grow up to be rich, so what DO we do? I made my "Money" in the 80's during the Reagan years so I can live comfortably in late middle-age (now!), but I know that not everybody can emulate an upper middle class lifestyle and succeed, so what DO we do?? Trump is a Maniac and Sanders might easily beat him if it comes to them being our Candidates so Hilary is nice and safe in the "middle". What will SHE do???? Third Party or even Fourth or Fifth Party is what we need. Vote Libertarian with an adequate Safety Net for the TRULY needy. That's all I got...

Seeing Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell in the same room, is just.... awesome. Wish we had 100 of each. So funny that if you did see the clothes they were wearing, you'd think it was filmed yesterday. Same issues, same excuses.

Milton’s face at 14:03. He’s enjoying every minute of Sowell owning!

Didn't the church do the charity back in the day? Saying that if there was a job problem for some people in a givin area, that the rest of the community would just let them starve in the streets, seems a bit.. arhm.. uninformed to me... Further evdience of this could be found by looking at our socieity today. It would seem that all over the western world, most governments has adopted the "cradle to grave" welfare policy. Therefor, either everybody agree that we should help our fellow man, in which case there is no need to force people to pay for governments bureaucrats to do charity for their own money. Or the welfare system is a lie, and was created by an unelected elite whom is forceing the tax-payer at gun point, to finanse programs that nobody want.

capitalism has led to "the poor" having cell phones, hd tv, radio, refrigeration, heat, A/C, access to affordable transportation....everything.

we need a panel like this today

Holy shit. This is the first video I've ever seen of Thomas Sowell. How have I never heard of this man?? He's amazing! I love how well spoken and composed he is, as well as being able to see the faults in the system he lives in. He's the only one not directly attacking Milton Friedman here and it's nice to see. He's usually always just shouldering blows but to see him get a backer is nice. EDIT: a backer *for once...

welfare babies - 15 babies with 15 different daddies - WHY THE HELL SHOULD WE SUBSIDIZE THAT? GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK.

Allowing someone to give you money without the expectation of paying it back always ends badly.

Tragic that this kind of discussion doesnt exist in the mainstream anymore.

Milton Friedman nails it at the 11:23 mark when he commented about the money going into programs.

Just started getting into your videos and it’s changing the way I see things

A great civil discussion. We need to learn how to do this now.

I love Milton Friedman. What a character 😂

This discussion occurred in 1980 and yet it sounds like today. It boggles the mind that people were this aware of the issue almost 40 years ago.

I also see how receiving benefits can make a client feel child dependent. You first have to go through a process to get the benefits, take so much documentation to the worker, see the worker so many times throughout the year for recerts, wait on the benefits every month etc. It is a lot. Also I agree with the Mr. Sowell when he talked about putting money in school with low scores. I have seen in the present days where in order for the schools to get additional grants, the children have to rank high in testing above other schools in the district.

The final statement by Friedman is the heart of the issue.

Back when pride was a universal virtue. How times have changed.

Bravo great Mr. Sowell ,a great thinker.

James R. Dumpson Who Was Chief Administration of Human Resources Administration, of NYC during 1974-1976 put the hammer to the nail. He stated " You Can' t Blame the System That By Its Own Failures Have Produced Poverty." Milton Friedman Speaks For The Bad Population Of People Who Misuse Government Assistance. Some People Have No Choice. I Also Like How He Pointed Out About How Not All People Who Are Considered Social Workers Are Social Workers. I Realize How Important It Is To Be Licensed Now And To Have A Passion To Care. That's One Of The Most Important Characteristics Of A Social Worker.

Sowell and Friedman. Name a more iconic duo.

That these kinds of serious conversations, led by people eminently qualified to pontificate on important social issues, don’t happen anymore is the biggest fucking tragedy of them all.

Thanks Liberty, love your Friedman videos

It's nice to watch the older debate show clips - much more informative, and the speakers don't keep trying to talk over each other.

Milton Friedman is a torrent of wisdom and common sense. Shame his ideas haven’t caught on more since this video was made 40 years ago.

everyone speaks so beautifully in this video... damn thomas was passionate!

I appreciate how Milton Friedman comes in the end to finish off the lady after receiving a good ass whooping from Thomas Sowell. This material is high quality indeed.

Priceless!

This should be shown in our public schools

@14:02 Milton's look is priceless. "The student has become the master" I bet he feels proud of Thomas Sowell.

THAT was fantastic!!!!!

Excellent observation.

Thomas Sowell and his intelligence brings me to tears.

My biggest gripe with welfare, or the "safety net" is that it should be solely to keep a person from hitting rock bottom. A means to a poverty level living. If they want more, they need to work. It should be temporary or at least go down at some point to a lower level to stimulate activity beyond the once a week feign of job searching. What it should NOT be is a means to a middle class living and that's what all the bleeding hearts are after today. They counter with "but they'll be homeless" or "you actually want them to starve", etc. In other words, fear-mongering. Two things that is true throughout history is that a person given something freely won't appreciate as much as one that works for it, and that our number one priority is to survive. If you force survival upon someone, they'll find a way. I really like the point that Friedman made about how welfare destroyed the more compassionate private charitable actions. There is not a person on this planet that doesn't cringe thinking about having to visit and interact with workers at a government facility. It's like living death.

Thomas Sowell is a beast, make sure you watch the tonnes of other videos on you tube. What a great man!

This is from a series of 10 one hour programmes by Milton Friedman called Free to choose, Give it a go, it's very thorough, very long and very interesting, I think Thomas Sowell is on a couple of them.

Regardless of what side you are on, the fact that people back in the old days could argue his/her side and be able to do it civilly and intellectually is astounding. My generation (millenials) can't even listen to the other side without being triggered and calling everyone a racist, sexist, libtard and all the other buzzwords you can find.

This was very informative and entertaining, thanks

I've never heard Mr. Friedman speak where he didn't IMPRESS and MOVE all who heard his message. What a joy to hear him speak and REASON away so many of the stupidities of modern America.

Sowell is a genius. One of America's greatest thinkers.

As I review the various comments in the video, I'm reminded that yes, there are some individuals who have abused the system and there may be some probability that they always will. However, I definitely think we should stay abreast of the individuals who have sought services through the welfare system and truly wanted a hand-up and worked hard to change the situation they were in. When Friedman mentioned in the video, that participants are dictates of their welfare supervisors, it really registered with experiences I've witnessed during my career where I've seen people treated like objects rather than people and they were never given a real chance. I've seen where participants were dictated to and never treated like they had any abilities or sense of understanding. We have to remember that some people fell on a hard time by one bad decision or by circumstances outside of their control. At least, let's give participants a chance and be cognitive of not treating everyone as if their intent is to beat the system.

Thomas Sowell is an American treasure. David Mamet once referred to Sowell as "our greatest contemporary philosopher". Rightly so.

"You mean separate the hopes from the reality? " That one question cuts to the heart of most government programs.

I have to agree with Brandi McGahey's comment. Good points were definitely made within this video. Welfare was made to provide 'short term' care for families who are really in need. No individual should EVER become too 'dependent' on welfare or any other governmental assistance program. I also agree that it is definitely a learned behavior, and it's unfortunately a sad behavior. Welfare really put families in a position to feel trapped, when its goal should be to help families overcome and strive for more. Overall, it's a sad situation.

This is so good

'...you don't have to do that, you simply subsidize it.' - Man. Thomas Sowell is so incomprehensibly onto it.

Look at what a debate used to be, compared to what it is now.

I really enjoyed this video. I have to agree with several statements that were made. Ms. O'Bannon stated that the economy isn't producing jobs fast enough. I couldn't agree with that statement more. If more jobs were being created, so that people can work, I do believe that some families would not have to depend on welfare. However, there are some individuals who like to 'depend' on the government to take care of them. I agree with Mr. Friedman about individuals who are being put on welfare have to be dictated to as well as lose their human independence and dignity. They are basically being treated as children, and this is absurd. It's really sad how some people who are on welfare are afraid to take jobs, due to the fact that if they were to lose that job it would take up to 9 months before they can get back on welfare. There was also a statement about how some of the social workers aren't doing their job correctly. In my opinion, there need to be revisions throughout the welfare program, as well as hiring suitable and caring workers. The purpose of welfare should be to help families during their time of need, and to help build them up for a better future. There should be no reason of why families should feel the need to depend on welfare to take care of them for the rest of their lives.

Welfare subsidizes failure and punishes those who manage to attain some success. Sowell is a genius

@3:55 this is perhaps one of the most important points I have ever heard made.

all the bells and whistles of an important segment of contemporary democratic discourse