Offset your carbon footprint on Wren: www.wren.co/start/mockrocktalk The first 100 people who sign up will have 10 extra trees planted in their name! Thanks for watching! This was a fun one to do, what other content (mine or not) would you like to see this kind of retrospective on? *Main channel:* kzfaq.info *Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock *Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch *Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock *TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/
@mikeyfresca1247 Жыл бұрын
@@TrueCarthaginian except it is a massive issue lol, you can easily see it. not really propaganda if it's blatant truth lol
@xShadowChrisx Жыл бұрын
@@mikeyfresca1247 it is propaganda when all the "solutions" offered are "do things worse in the west and let china do all the polluting, profiting from doing an even worse job than if you just did it yourself"
@laytonthegameking76483 ай бұрын
What 🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀
@cherrycolareal26 күн бұрын
Yes because this is *obviously* the individual's problem.. 😒
@Pokemichael Жыл бұрын
The real yoshi nerf was the fact that they took 3 notes out of his victory theme for no reason
@slimballs9650 Жыл бұрын
I prefer the new one actually. The two themes mesh quite poorly.
@tiersexualcommunistpropaga2766 Жыл бұрын
Nah, the real Yoshi nerf was getting black Yoshi replaced with wool Yoshi
@slimballs9650 Жыл бұрын
@@tiersexualcommunistpropaga2766 THAT I agree.
@Alonzone Жыл бұрын
@@tiersexualcommunistpropaga2766Man they REALLY did my boy Yosh dirty.
@limerplaz8208 Жыл бұрын
Bruh unplayable.
@zernek9199 Жыл бұрын
It's a little crazy to me how different the "Worst Change" list feels from the "Best Of" list. The "Best Of" list felt like substantial things that helped their gameplan for the most part, and it was changes I was aware of. The exception was with some characters who had a lot of small changes and I wasn't aware of all of them. The "Worst Of" list feels very weird for me because it's so many changes I just wasn't aware of and they feel randomly slapped around. Falcon's F-Tilt doesn't kill? Damn, I wasn't really aware it killed in the first place, but now that I'm aware of that, yeah, Falcon uses that move a decent amount, that move would be way better in Ultimate if it killed.
@SSM24_ Жыл бұрын
I think that's just the fundamental nature of good vs. bad changes. Something becoming really good means you're going to see people abuse it more often, so it becomes more prominent. On the other hand, something becoming worse means you're just not going to see it as much.
@zernek9199 Жыл бұрын
@@SSM24_ Yeah, that is true, and people are gonna talk about it less as well
@FalcoVille Жыл бұрын
Another change that was pretty bad for Falco was his up smash. The animation lifts its hitboxes much higher from the ground, which severely tanked its utility against short characters and even just grounded opponents in general. I'd say that's his worst change if I didn't miss being able to get away with side b from ledge 95% of the time in Smash 4.
@MockRockTalk Жыл бұрын
The up smash is definitely an issue, no doubt, I think Falco needed the burst movement option a lot more than Fox did though. Not that Phantasm is bad by any means in Ultimate lol, but if it still crossed up shields for free? God damn.
@FalcoVille Жыл бұрын
The cross ups would have been the icing on the cake after phantasm got some pretty nice buffs in patch 8.0.
@ectogrey Жыл бұрын
so true, up smash just doesn't hit mk and kirby
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
@@MockRockTalk I disagree, Phantasm still gets tons of good use since it's buff where as Up-Smash contributed a decent amount to his Out of Shield game & killing that isn't around anymore, so that's my pick.
@Ampharosite Жыл бұрын
It's still an excellent move despite that. It has one weakness, so what?
@milos1967 Жыл бұрын
I really wish Luigi had his old cyclone in this game. Somehow they made the move less rewarding to use and more frustrating to play against.
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
I agree.
@NickTheGreatAndPowerful Жыл бұрын
Yeah, but you got a ridiculously broken 0% to death chain grab combo out of the deal.
@vivelespatat2670 Жыл бұрын
Sponge-boi me Bob, I got grabbed at 6% by Luigi for whiffing a Nair and I'm gonna lose a stock, KYAKKAKAKAKA
@Magic_Ice Жыл бұрын
The biggest nerd for Shulk is definitely his face. They made him look like a doofus :I
@givecamichips Жыл бұрын
And they nerfed his victory theme, too. Shulk's end screen was gutted.
@mario-nk7be Жыл бұрын
Like a nerd, even?
@nileprimewastaken Жыл бұрын
yes, his biggest nerf and his biggest nerd
@Err0_Will Жыл бұрын
Here's the weird part about Shulk's face, if you look at the models for Ultimate and 4, they're exactly the same. It's literally the lighting and camera that make him look bad
@Tonjit41 Жыл бұрын
Shulk would never
@TheLobsterCopter5000 Жыл бұрын
Kirby's up throw wasn't directly nerfed in Ultimate though. It kills later because of a universal mechanic where characters have heavier physics when launched at a vertical angle rather than using their normal physics.
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
Yeah, nothing I've found confirms that move's kill power was nerfed. I think it's just the weaker rage & high ceilings for competitive stages that threw people off.
@djdrizzy9139 Жыл бұрын
It's the same throw, but without the insane rage of Smash 4, it's worse. Wish they would've compensated the knock back, but oh well. Stone nerf to shield is worse.
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
@@djdrizzy9139 Yeah either that or Forward & Back bouncing Kirby too high & landing on BF platforms, weakening it's combo ability.
@djdrizzy9139 Жыл бұрын
@@MrGameguyC That used to be my answer until 6.0.0; now since we have new platform combos, it evens out. Stone not working as it should (even thd demo had it work!!) is the most devastating nerf since now stone is super unsafe on shield.
@amateraceon5202 Жыл бұрын
I actually rather recently learned that Toon Link’s new forward smash comes from one of his basic sword attack animations in Wind Waker, still weird that’s the only thing they changed about him though
@alexmills9223 Жыл бұрын
Honestly, would've worked better as his Jab finisher.
@snuffysam Жыл бұрын
@@alexmills9223 Agreed, and if he was gonna get a new f smash then it should have been hammer
@alexmills9223 Жыл бұрын
@@snuffysam AGREED
@jacobballard8612 Жыл бұрын
I'd actually say Mr. Game & Watch's worst change is his down tilt
@MockRockTalk Жыл бұрын
Down tilt was up there for me as well, I think back air is his more-used move out of them though
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
@@MockRockTalk It'd still say Fair. There's many cases he would have preferred his old one as a solid front-facing option in the air, his current bomb-drop is just a bit too specific and gimmicky IMO. (Not that he needs it of course. lol)
@antant6217 Жыл бұрын
@MockRockTalk down tilt trades utility for being a strong as hell down tilt that sends at a nasty angle, and has respectable enough frame data to be a good punish (plus it low profiles). i think it's way too useful still to be his worse change, whereas up tilt is basically never used in this game.
@doggo4078 Жыл бұрын
I really love to see you revisit all the old videos. Really great content and im happy to see you upload.
@JacobSC_ Жыл бұрын
Wolf's worst change was removing his cool taunts from Brawl.
@cuttsthecat6331 Жыл бұрын
"Nyaagh"
@Alonzone4 ай бұрын
His incredibly arrogant voice is gone.
@dc_dachi Жыл бұрын
I think Marth’s worst change was actually Dancing Blade. Tipper fair was never really a *huge* kill move in S4, and even the untipped version is still a solid spacing tool and is good for edgeguards. Dancing Blade was a premiere kill move in Smash 4 though, and you frequently saw Marth players relying on it to secure stocks. Ultimate’s changes to DB-style moves greatly benefitted Roy, but they were far more detrimental to Marth. The tipper hitbox is much narrower, the particle effects don’t accurately convey the tipper, and the increased speed of the slashes combined with Ult’s faster knockback makes it harder to time the last hit consistently.
@joanaguayoplanell4912 Жыл бұрын
I still disagree with Greninja's Dair. It's a reliable spike and using it no longer burns your double jump anymore, wich is a big deal when you go for a deep edgeguard. And it was never safe since you could simply sidestep it and punish the tremendous landing lag. I would go for Shadow Sneak because it lost the hitstun cancel glitch. Loosing that get out of combos free card really sucked. Yes it was punishable and it is still a great recovery and edgeguarding move but being able one-shot a Meta Knight or Bayonetta attempting to bring you into the heavens was really good. Another contender is dash grab, wich was made significantly slower. Problem is, both in Ultimate and 4 you generally want to use the Dash Attack instead anyway.
@meganintenbro Жыл бұрын
32:22 For Robin's change, you may want to consider the damage increase Arc Thunder got. In that Smash 4 clip, it hit all of its hit boxes and only did about 9%. Now, if you hit all of it's hitboxes, it does 29% A massive increase, it's very important in some of robin's worse matchups like against pikachu. land 2-3 arcthunders and Pikachu is in kill percent easy.
@captainmega6310 Жыл бұрын
Yeah I wouldn't call that a strict nerf. What about checkmate?
@vla1neАй бұрын
bit late, but robin main here, the increased damage is of course welcome, but the massive stun it used to have was able to combo into way more lethal setups. arcfire is way more fragile than arcthunder as well (with enough endlag that whiffing it can be a death sentence), so not it has to carry the wight of a ledgetrap, combo setup, and recovery aid all in now, where arcthunder used to help carry the weight of those last two a lot better.
@Ceruleancast Жыл бұрын
23:25 Dedede's up air actually kills earlier now, ever since the buff. Pre patch it had relatively around the same knockback it had in Smash 4, it didn't even KO well in Smash 4 with proper DI. It still doesn't KO that well but it didn't KO that well to begin with anyway. If anything I'd say his Fsmash got nerfed the hardest, sure it was situational before but at least when you landed it, it generally worked as intended. Now the move is plagued with: more prominent sourspots that are extremely weak, hitboxes not functioning as intended leading to the move failing, blindspots, risk of even getting ko'd for landing it if you trade with the 0% hitbox etc. Not to mention Jet Hammer significantly outclasses it in its role too now large part thanks to Fsmash not functioning anymore.
@MockRockTalk Жыл бұрын
Ah okay, I actually didn't realize that, good catch, thanks!
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
Good point. Wouldn't have thought of that.
@peng7376 Жыл бұрын
yeah i was like. erm?
@loganalleman Жыл бұрын
I'd still stick with the original gordo bounce change. Neither change really affects him competitively, but the bounce change meant he lost stylish combos and jank, which is what he was known for. I guess it did give us double-hit gordo though
@Ceruleancast Жыл бұрын
@@loganalleman Fsmash used to see some legitimate uses for some MUs and shield pressure (which it's also worse at now), and the very few buffs (like the buffed shockwaves damage) to compensate the drastic nerfs the move got hardly make enough of a difference (granted most of the nerfs were unintentional) unlike Gordo which used to have an extremely pathetic hitbox in the previous game for an example. Gordo bounce is a mixed bag, it is a lot more consistent vs off stage opponents now at least since frequently you'd have opponents winding up getting knocked towards the stage and it saving them as a result (double hit can still cause it out of nowhere ofc), although that also saw its uses. Double hit Gordo was also in Smash 4, though less prominent. But my main view here are as the moves as a whole, and Fsmash serves almost no real purpose anymore given the risk rarely gets rewarded even when you set it up right + Jet Hammer outclasses it severely as well now.
@nightey975 Жыл бұрын
Didn’t watch this yet but I can’t wait to see his reaction to his old self yell “BRING! BACK! IKE’S! FORWARD AIR!” by pausing, saying “YEP!”, and moving on to the next character. Edit: Bruh u missed such an obvious humor opportunity 😤 Ike’s section is on 20:05 if you wanna experience the disappointment for yourself.
@umopapsdn2864 Жыл бұрын
For robin arcthunder was def thought to be a gutted move from smash 4 but as ult has gone on robins have found much better ways to use it As a move, it was changed to hold opponents in place for a much shorter time but it's damage was changed from 10% in 4 to 28% in ultimate Furthermore, it plays much more of a role in neutral based on how much importance ultimate puts on landing aerials, which arcthunder is fantastic for punishing The most important thing is that it still combos into a crazy amount of robin's kit Combos are mostly dependent on spacing, in which great spacing allows robin to combo an fsmash which will kill around 40, but even with subpar spacing she can still follow the opponent with thunder > bair This along with the fact that shielding the move now has more options to punish makes it honestly a better move that just requires more skill to take advantage of Would definitely say robin belongs to the list of characters who deserves a throw combo mention, dthrow used to have combos from 0% all the way to kill percent but now can no longer combo after 60
@umopapsdn2864 Жыл бұрын
Correcting this a full 5 days later after remembering the actual worst change was robin not starting the game with levin sword anymore
@eduardoleocadio2678 Жыл бұрын
Personally, I'm loving the comparision of how you saw things before compared to now! Makes me realize just how long ago it was when we were hyping up the game in 2018 and 2019, and also brings in perspective how the meta evolved over the years
@meta4knight Жыл бұрын
It’s harder to position luma in ultimate, the distance luma can be from you feels much more strict. You can’t use jab to walk luma forward anymore either
@deadheat1635 Жыл бұрын
With all of the “best ____ in smash history”, now I want a best of every smash move in *the whole series*
@pandalenz6534 Жыл бұрын
Basically everything is brawl MK
@Alibaba-id1cs Жыл бұрын
@@pandalenz6534 unironically yeah lmao. Tornado, shuttle loop, up air down air, down smash etc lmao
@edgyanole9705 Жыл бұрын
@@Alibaba-id1cs wouldn't dair be kirby 64
@theillusionist1494 Жыл бұрын
Here’s an incomplete list of moves I’d personally go with: Jab: Idk but probably something from Brawl or Sm4sh, jabs were crazy in those games Ftilt: Brawl MK, Sephiroth or prepatch Pichu Utilt: 64 Kirby, Brawl Snake, or Steve Dtilt: Brawl MK or Sm4sh Mewtwo Dash attack: Maybe Sm4sh Samus??? Idk Fsmash: Idk too many good options Usmash: Either Melee Fox or prepatch Min-Min Dsmash: Melee Peach, Brawl MK, or prepatch Wolf Nair: 64 Puff, Brawl MK, Sm4sh Cloud, or prepatch Ike Fair: -Idk- How tf did I forget about Melee Sheik, easy win Bair: Melee Puff, Brawl Wolf, or Sm4sh Cloud Dair: 64 Kirby, Melee Falco, Melee Marth, Brawl MK, Sm4sh Cloud, Pyra, or prepatch Ivysaur (god why are there so many stupidly good down airs in smash history) Uair: Brawl MK or Sm4sh Cloud Neutral B: Ult Shulk or Steve, or Brawl MK Side B: Brawl MK, Sm4sh Sonic or Sm4sh Corrin Down B: Sm4sh Bayo is in the conversation, but it’s ABSOLUTELY Melee Fox. Also Brawl MK, but that depends if you count the competitively banned vanishing tech. Up B: 64 Pika, Brawl MK, or Ult G&W Input: Kazuya Mishima This is using the same exclusionary criteria as Mock, for the record. I think if we’re a bit more lenient, Bair and Side B actually go to Arsene and Steve, respectively, with absolutely no competition. If there’s any glaring exceptions I’m missing, let me know Surprisingly few picks I'd actually give to Brawl MK, now that the list is more complete. Though, to be fair, almost all of them are at least top 5 in their category apart from jab, AND they're on a character with six jumps and gliding. Also hot take, I think Monado Arts or Block are better moves in a vacuum than Brawl Tornado, but Brawl MK is WAY more set up to abuse tornado, and it’s still a game breaking move in its category - just not as good as the other two.
@edgyanole9705 Жыл бұрын
@@theillusionist1494 pre-patch ivysaur dair
@prestige8477Ай бұрын
3:18 The cyclone nerf removed an essential factor from Luigi's recovery that no other character in the series has had to deal with: Consistency. Luigi's recovery relies heavily on several layers of RNG that should never be a character's SOLE recovery option, a problem which they remedied in brawl by giving cyclone more recovery potential. The move in Ultimate has a 1/10 chance of misfiring which may send you directly under the stage if you're too close and if you fly into the side of the stage (misfire or not) there's a 50% chance that Luigi's head gets stuck leaving him vulnerable for nearly 2 full seconds to either get spiked or stage spiked. The move literally has a 45% or 9/20 chance of working as intended when you're trying to recover which is less than half the time. Not to mention how characters can just body block the move to stop Luigi in his tracks and get a free gimp for just running off stage. Which means Sandbag can gimp Luigi. I repeat: SANDBAG CAN GIMP LUIGI. Getting stuck in walls feels like a holdover from Brawl's casual approach to moves that should definitely be removed if they plan on keeping Luigi's recovery this bad. Missile in general just needs to cover more distance with less charge time and have less lag if it's going to be Luigi's primary recovery tool.
@vaderwalks Жыл бұрын
As someone who mained Wolf in Brawl, almost exclusively because of his f-smash...THANK YOU. Everyone loves the new one, I was starting to think I was crazy.
@jesseblake3508 Жыл бұрын
I was so sad to see that they changed it in Ultimate. Fsmash and side b were my fav parts of the character. At least one survived the transition rip lol
@vaderwalks Жыл бұрын
@@jesseblake3508 I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE
@Wesley-76 Жыл бұрын
Still weird to me that Ness would headbutt characters 3 games in a row rather than use PSI for up air. Strange seeing an otherwise pretty normal kid delete characters with his head lol
@hlavco Жыл бұрын
I mean, it's a pretty big head.
@Wesley-76 Жыл бұрын
@@hlavco "But I don't wanna use my head!"
@loganalleman Жыл бұрын
For Lucas, weirdly enough, I'd say that making nair not always send in front is actually in contention. While nair overall was buffed so you don't fall out, if it still always sent in front with those buffs, it would basically be better palu nair. Nair loops and combos into fair and bair would be busted. Also, looking back at ssb4 hitboxes, his normals used to be way bigger. Especially jab, where the old hitbox was, like, 5 times bigger.
@shrimpchris6580 Жыл бұрын
Nair being inconsistent is so rough compared to something like puff Dair where she has the air speed to react and the move lasts longer so you have the time to react as well. Not to mention his dragdown nair got worse with less multihits and putting the opponent in less disadvantage at low-mid percents. Lucas really got gutted in this game :(
@captainmega6310 Жыл бұрын
@Shrimpchris I wouldn't say gutted. Maybe for your specific playstyle, but he also got improved in alot of ways
@heybro884511 күн бұрын
I mean yeah but down throw was SERIOUSLY gutted. I remember downthrow in 4 would lead into like 3 of his aerials and footstool, in Ult it leads into forward air at low percents and at high percents it has way too high knockback to do anything. If downthrow still worked as a combo throw I'd probably still main him. It's so sad, he wasn't even a good character, why get rid of his combo throw 😭
@Loxu69 Жыл бұрын
21:47 I guess this doesn’t count since it is a universal change but Lucas got hit the hardest by the addition of being able to tech footstools. Lucas was definitely the footstool character and he lost pretty much all of his sauce in the move to ultimate (he is getting some of it back with slingshot zair infinites)
@Cutzerella03 Жыл бұрын
Footstool Djcz loop cause slingshot is very pointless as lucas outside of holdshot Perfect irar is better
@milos1967 Жыл бұрын
HEAVILY disagree with the zss change. Going for grabs is still a big part of her gameplan in ultimate sheerly from how much she conditions her opponent to shield, and losing the guaranteed follow-ups from down-throw was absolutely brutal. It means that zss has to win neutral far more than her opponent in order to get them to kill percent, which is excasterbated by the fact that she's one of the lightest characters in the game.
@creative_commander4973 Жыл бұрын
This is one of my most anticipated videos. After the best changes equivalent, I really wanted to see where things stood now
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
Same.
@Chmmr Жыл бұрын
for olimar, i'm surprised you didnt mention how bad his shield is, it's so easy to shieldpoke him on launch of ultimate they made his shield too small, then they buffed him to fix the shield, then they nerfed him to make his hurtbox bigger and they didnt move the shield with it so he just gets poked again also surprised that corrin's counter didnt get mentioned, that went from one of the best counters in 4 to one of the worst in ult
@gameboyn64 Жыл бұрын
I think the changes to zss down throw and marcina up throw can't be understated. When you can't combo or kill out of your throws it makes it incredibly difficult to force your opponent out of shield. This means that your ability to take the initiative or close out stocks are greatly hampered. It also greatly hampers your ability to stop your opponent's aggression because landing aerial into shield is now a low risk option as shield grabbing is a mediocre punish.
@boogers946 Жыл бұрын
I support reducing carbon footprint but not acknowledging that any efforts made by us is negligible if major countries and industry don't change their own...
@Rspknlikeab0ssxd Жыл бұрын
Yeah I definitely get your Captain Falcon dash grab point. I think due to my play style I would make use of more f-tilt kills than not nerfed dash grabs- I'm used to Zelda's bad dash grab lol. So for me personally I'd rather see a killing forward tilt for Captain Falcon than a better dash grab. But I completely get it from a usually more general perspective While we're at it, fix his dash turnaround animation😂
@papersonic9941 Жыл бұрын
5:03 I don't get how making Samus focused on shooting (her main way of attacking in her games) instead of playing American Football makes her less accurate to her games, but OK. For Cloud, I'd say Finishing Touch specifically got it the worst, since it went from busted, especially in Doubles, to almost-never used.
@edgyanole9705 Жыл бұрын
The only reason she even shoots anything at all is because of how much bigger they are, and some of her most popular moves are very physical, like the speed booster and shine spark
@heartnet40 Жыл бұрын
I'm gonna defend Zelda's modern D-Tilt because against some characters with poor OoS options or in the corner onstage it can be a really obnoxious poking tool that lets her harass opponents with also low-profiling a lot of options. Characters could choose to jump out of shield but then they play with the risk of getting Lightning Kicked in one of the worst positions to be Lightning Kicked. It's a good move overall, even if I generally preferred the juggling potential it had in Smash 4. No, I'm going with jab. It's a decent poke and it can stuff some approaches, but it doesn't make up for the fact that Zelda's old Jab almost always led to a free grab. And Zelda's throws in Ultimate are fucking phenomenal, having two kill throws, a terrific offstage positioning throw, and a combo throw that also leads to DI mix-ups. Zelda would be a much more potent character if she had her old Jab enough that I could easily call it a nerf.
@caml1720 Жыл бұрын
i like how your writing and presence have evolved since you made these original videos
@TheMonarchOfTetris Жыл бұрын
great video, cool to see how different smash is now than back then and how characters have evolved
@haydeniskander5306 Жыл бұрын
I believe Kirby's U-Throw technically has the same knock back values that it did in Smash 4. I think its "nerf" is mainly due to physics/mechanics changes.
@the_bookworm8281 Жыл бұрын
I might be wrong, but I believe a lot of the legal stages also got their vertical blastzones extended, likely to prevent the ladder combo shenanigans that happened in SSB4, which pretty much universally nerfed all of the vertical KO throws. I believe Mewtwo up throw being nerfed was a common misconception back in the day, when in reality it never got changed at all. There is a few exceptions like Marth/Lucina who did get the knockback on their up throws directly nerfed.
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
I've looked into it and I haven't seen anything that confirms Kirby's Up-Throw has worse kill power. (Same with Mario's Up-Smash) The nerf to rage & higher ceiling blast zones make every vertical kill move worse, so people probably haven't accounted for that.
@ihopeyouandicanbefriends Жыл бұрын
the fact that charizard fair doesn't autocancel anymore throws me off to this day. it just. feels like a move that should autocancel like it did, but it doesn't because of what could very well be an oversight? a little frustrating and it keeps the move from feeling satisfying
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
Same. It's why I don't play PT anymore.
@nit0134 Жыл бұрын
21:30 I definitely agree, Lucas d throw was everything in Smash 4. And because down throw to up air was a kill confirm, that means all of Lucas' throws killed in Smash 4 lol. You were never safe getting grabbed.
@nightwithoutk5679 Жыл бұрын
its very interesting going back on old videos and seeing how much things have changed in years.
@TarrenSky Жыл бұрын
30:31 It's also worth pointing out that Thrust Uppercut actually got buffed at one point to be an actual kill move. At the time you made that video, the move was absolute garbage, but now it's a staple.
@DaminRSW Жыл бұрын
i know you just had to say all of that stuff because they paid you to but there is absolutely nothing that the regular person can do to offset the destruction that is being done by gigantic corporations i don't say this so that people get the wind taken out of them when it comes to minimizing environmental impact. i say this because it's important to know that it's not their fault, and they shouldn't feel guilty.
@wolfzafox229 Жыл бұрын
As a corrin main, my side B not being bigger than the entire stage hurts 😢
@paulakroy26352 ай бұрын
Cry
@_Deez Жыл бұрын
Ah another MockRock video. Time to rewatch it endlessly over the coming months.
@nightey975 Жыл бұрын
MockRock: *Chooses Limit as Cloud’s worst change in Smash Ultimate at **34:01* Cloud’s neutral air: Allow me to introduce myself.
@xray8012 Жыл бұрын
The actual BIGGEST change that cloud had... Limit is much more fair but with about the Nair?
@kimotokirby1601 Жыл бұрын
THe thing is that, in smash four, even tho it was insanely good it wasn't an overcentralizing part of his moveset.
@nightey975 Жыл бұрын
@@kimotokirby1601 Sure it wasn't Cloud's main game plan in Smash 4, but it doesn't have much use as Limit or Up air. Nair's main use case in Smash 4 was an edgeguarding tool. Take that main strength away, and the move doesn’t have a lot of use. You still can use it as a edgeguarding tool, but you’d probably wanna use back air since that kills earlier and still has a lot of range.
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
I still would argue Up-Air, it has less killpower & active frames. Limit got buffed later to charge faster from Down-B and it's overall more common since you get more from dealing damage.
@AwesomeMooseSmile Жыл бұрын
Swordfighter Bair is still really great. It's a decently fast and very powerful move. Honestly Mii Swordfighter is probably the most underrated character in ultimate.
@petetehpandag0d Жыл бұрын
Ong
@JforJonas Жыл бұрын
3:55 Link Fair was probably better in s4 (at least with the wild shield pushback in that game), but Ult Fair 1 has the same shield safety as Fair 2
@d-rug1498 Жыл бұрын
as a corrin main dragon lunge kick specifically was the big nerf but her counter and her dragon fang shot not consistently connecting with itself are also really bad. if i had to pick id say the counter nerf was the biggest one, cuz now its really not that useful unless youre reading a down air high in the air. at least we can cancel the lag of dragon lunge kick from platforms with special moves, aerials, jumps or airdodging.
@gameboyn64 Жыл бұрын
I think zelda's nair is a contender for her worst change. The move used to use autolink hit boxes in smash 4 but now uses a bunch of small hitboxes with varying angles. This not only made it more consistent in smash 4 but also could drag down into up b for a kill confirm.
@nightey975 Жыл бұрын
On 8:57, you mention that Captain Falcon’s f-tilt losing its kill power was a massive nerf, but not worse than his dash grab being changed which I don’t agree with. It’s not like Falcon struggles to get a grab, and he still gets plenty of reward from it. And while the tech chase stuff with f-tilt is pretty good, he can’t get much off of it either than a dash attack. Yes, he can get a grab which is really good, but the stage position of one grab leading to your opponent’s death is pretty specific. Yeah he’s not a bad edgeguarding character but getting a grab combo that kills only works if you drag your opponent across the stage. And your opponent may tech away from the stage more commonly to avoid that happening, or any other reason. So I would say that f-tilt losing its kill power is his worst change. Edit: Actually it’s his dash grab. I played Smash 4 recently & found out that it doesn’t have reliable kill power in that game either. It’s not as bad as it is in Ultimate, but it killed Samus’s at 160% in Sm4sh.
@XDDocXD Жыл бұрын
This is more like what each characters biggest nerf was instead of worst change. Because some character changes may have been nerfs but were a good change for balancing reasons orbsomething like that.
@captainmega631011 ай бұрын
Semantics
@SonicTheCutehog Жыл бұрын
I'd still say Young Link's worst change is the removal of the meteor smash hitbox on his Down Air.
@RacingSnails64 Жыл бұрын
15:15 Wait a minute. Ganondorf's up air can still hit behind. I gimp people like that all the time.
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
Up-Air is worse at doing that, but it can still happen. Flame Choke killing Ganon first IMO is still the biggest nerf, in Sm4sh it allowed him to steal games very well which he can't do anymore.
@darrenrooftop8328 Жыл бұрын
I could live with that Ike Foward air , IF it could at least still auto cancel out of a short hop
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
Yeah, I would have taken a bigger nerf to Nair if Fair got it's old kill power & Short Hop Auto Cancel window back. It'd give him a more healthy neutral for sure.
@thezestiestnugget3980 Жыл бұрын
As a Zelda main, can confirm - it is 100% still down tilt. All of the combos or kill confirms you can get off of it are either untrue or incredibly difficult to perform consistently thanks to the changed knockback angle. Jab, meanwhile, is really disjointed, kills, went from frame 11 to frame 4, and also got buffed in 13.0.0 so now jab 1 can kill confirm into dash attack or down smash at high percents.
@thezestiestnugget3980 Жыл бұрын
Not saying down tilt isn’t still good, but if it were smash 4 down tilt, Zelda would move up several spots on the tier list
@gamedragonify Жыл бұрын
Not sure I agree with Arc Thunder being Robins worst change. Ultimately, she still has a combo special in Arc Fire whereas not starting the match with Levin sword basically just makes her aerials useless until 10 seconds in. It's like if they made Rosa not start the match with a Luma.
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
I fully agree, Robin was mostly buffed so it's tough to pick.
@DeepfriedBeans4492 Жыл бұрын
10:41 I think it’s also that dlc pack 2 generally destroys bowser very hard
@kailor8764 Жыл бұрын
I’d say Wario’s bike cooldown is still his worst because you need to apply the mentality of what Wario isn’t doing. Without bike cooldown, he could pretty comfortably go offstage for a kill with Bair or even gimps with fair and other moves. He can still do this, but not nearly as much as he originally could due to this cooldown. I am aware that nowadays, players are favoring to stay on stage for these types of situations, but I’d say limiting the availability of these options is a bigger deal than losing a killing forward throw that’s kinda replace with a command grab.
@YourLocalRussianNegro Жыл бұрын
The 4 nerfed moves that nuked Ganondorf were: 1. Up air - the frame data and the range of the move made it a staple of his gameplay. If it were two frames faster, up air would consistently connect from a sour dash attack. 2. Back air - Ultimate removed its slight disjoint which made it a worse spacing tool. 3. Down tilt - Ultimate made it less safe on shield. 4. Flame choke - If flame choke in ultimate killed the opponent first and removed the mashing ability, it would prevent many characters from bullying him offstage because they know a flame choke would kill them first.
@kittybaby6242 Жыл бұрын
Ganon in general feels nerfed, and he already sucked in Smash 4 Speakin of nerfed moves...U-smash
@YourLocalRussianNegro Жыл бұрын
@@kittybaby6242 I'd say up smash was a tradeoff more than a nerf because of platform and vertical coverage at the expense of speed and safety.
@happyboy7860 Жыл бұрын
Here’s to Game and Watch getting a useful up tilt in the next game… in like 2047
@allenearl1514 Жыл бұрын
For Shulk, I'd honestly argue that the way that his Monado Arts function as a whole was a change that made him worse. From what I've noticed, the effects of the Arts thenselves are only slightly stronger, whereas their duration was cut down significantly. There may be a few niche situations where having them wear off quickly in exchange for a slight strength buff could be advantageous, but more often than not, I'm left wishing that the Art I selected lasted just a bit longer. Honorable mention goes to his counter, but I'm still not sure if it being as weak as it is now is a result of individual character adjustments or the overall changes to the game's systems and mechanics.
@captainmega6310 Жыл бұрын
Slightly? Maybe if you're insane
@kylelemon4230 Жыл бұрын
Just saying for LUCAS down throw can be used as di mix up like grab close to ledge people will di in to survive the throw but make down throw an actual combo throw again. So it's a mix up , also it does like 15% so gotta make due with what we got lol
@boppertron4929 Жыл бұрын
Did Sm4sh have the best combo names or what? The Ding Dong? The Toot Toot?
@Mr.Cynical Жыл бұрын
Yo, how about you make a top 10 of characters who should be reworked? You talk about a lot of characters who you feel should be changed up (like Samus, Little Mac and Ganondorf), so I wanna see who you'd want reworked most and how you would do so.
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
Finished the video, honestly was surprised how many I called but also disagreed with, the last few video I tend agree much more. There's plenty of highlights to picks, I guess if I were to pick one it's DK, I think his worse change is Up-B. Platform Ding Dong is still very viable, his F-Throw got buffed in many other areas, and I'd agrue the unversive nerf to short-range grabs while also going from 2 to 3 stock is what hurt DK's grab game more. Up-B lost it's frame 3 I-frames and doesn't linger in the air as long, weakening it's stalling/mix up ability which is what made it a decent recovery in Sm4sh. His Disadvantage is notably weaker because of which and considering how bad it is now in Ult, DK would have taken any help he could get. Also Mii Gunner's Air Speed is way worse, in a game where mobility matters so much & nearly everyone else's was buffed, that really sucks.
@RedWhaley14 Жыл бұрын
I almost want to say Pac’s worst change was to Usmash because it’s less safe and doesn’t even work out of Bell 95% of the time due to the changes to the first hit’s angle but it has to be UP B as you said. It is still a good combo breaker, camping tool, and ledgetrapping tool but while Pac still has great OOS and get off me options, losing a frame 1 is such a big af blow lmao nothing comes close. Also ik a lot of people will say Utilt but Utilt is still great anti air and combo tool from Galaxian, and pressures platforms better due to the intangible fist, tho losing the grounded Hydrant launch blows for sure. For G&W I’d also nominate Down Tilt, it no longer is a big disjointed poke that could be safe-ish, it’s now just a niche low profile and combo ender that’s hella unsafe and small, but Bair is also a trade off and is used more so idk. Great video as always! Can’t wait to rewatch this infinitely
@Marsdend1 Жыл бұрын
HOLD UP. Pits orbitars were indeed nerfed, at least in one other aspect; their cheese potential has been reduced drastically. Instead of pushing opponents to the side during rising recoveries, it launches them upwards and to the side, meaning you can't gimp nearly as well as you could in smash 4. It's the one thing I miss from smash 4; I can't reliably down b recoveries such as link's anymore. Also, your an absolute legend for doing a reaction video to your own video, no harm done to the original creator lol
@WarrenValion Жыл бұрын
Essentially all the changes made to reduce Marth's tipper hitboxes have been reversed during balance patches in Ultimate's lifespan. The only real differences between Smash 4 Marth Forward Air and Ult's is the reducing in knockback growth, the smaller sour body hitbox, and the lack of a reverse hit. Which while subtainal, I would argue that Jab 1 confirms (Although I think you didn't count things like that) and Up-Throw's kill power (although some of it was also due to changes to Rage between games) are more substainal nerfs. But an honorable mention that most people forget is Dancing Balde Up 4 losing it's ability to kill all together is probably a massive nerf and I might recommend that as the most standalone-not game engine influenced nerf he got overall.
@iiesuu56753 ай бұрын
New villager jab actually has a funny cancel tech we discovered Watering can walk to ledge, hold jab, and you can cancel it (ignore the jab finisher) into literally any move (nair dair fair axe) to kill stupidly early
@ubadman1 Жыл бұрын
i would argue that bayo is more affected by witch twist startup increase consistcy of its muti-hits lowered vs the upair. up air hurts but the fact that witch twist cannot be a reliable combo tool, has no reversal capabilities AND doesn't snap ledge hurts way more.
@NightRaven5568 Жыл бұрын
The not snapping to ledge is my biggest problem tho it would help if WT had very slightly bigger hit boxes as well cause it can still be inconsistent on small characters
@jonathanlgill Жыл бұрын
Maybe, as a gimmick, you could do a Best Animated Moves of Melee video? Just spitballing ideas.
@sarasaland4709 Жыл бұрын
Bowser: Loses Up-Throw combos. Becomes a much better character overall due to buffs elsewhere. DK: Loses Ding Dong. No longer exists.
@mattf5935 Жыл бұрын
Chunky Kong does not approve your post.
@joelcudjoe3833 Жыл бұрын
Some of these changes practically NEEDED to be changed, luigi frame 1 cyclone is one of his best moves, people barely use falco up smash since everyone else use kill confirms, also DK ding dong still exist though you have to use a platform to do it
@timmyb.3426 Жыл бұрын
I played Lucas is Smash 4 and down throw in Ultimate just makes me sad. Nintendo literally changed the move just so Lucas can't combo off of it anymore. No important buffs from it at all.
@heybro884511 күн бұрын
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who misses Lucas down throw. Why did they have to do my mans like that
@typhlosion7872 Жыл бұрын
If I can give a suggestion, moves that got worse throughout Ultimate without being nerfed. For instance, Bowser down smash started out absolutely amazing but became nigh obsolete once people started truly abusing up b. Another example is Roy's neutral b because dair was eventually discovered to be more reliable at 2 framing with less lag
@seththemage6029 Жыл бұрын
Within the criteria, Palu's bair was probably her worst nerf going in to Ult, but the jab cancel/dthrow nerfs fundamentally changed her playstyle. Can you imagine if she still had her old jab > grab > dthrow > nair/uair combos in Ult, now that you can jab out of dash? Yikes.
@lightbrand_ Жыл бұрын
I would say for young link his worst change is down smash, it went from one of his fastest and best kill moves to a pretty useless one, it sent at a very good angle which was pretty deadly at ledge and was also a good option out of CC, in ultimate I don’t think it does anything that some of his other moves wouldn’t do better
@Eterco Жыл бұрын
It's always good when MockRock uploads
@j3t950 Жыл бұрын
tbf, DK now has DKO which works on most stages that are legal and DK players can just ban the stages it doesn’t work on
@RubyGrube Жыл бұрын
Bring back Luma Jab confirm into Up Tilt KO’s from Sm4sh. That was one of the best things to come out of that character! Luma Up Tilt would kill EARLY with rage, now it’s just a niche and rather mediocre move that no one, or rarely anyone, uses.
@the_bookworm8281 Жыл бұрын
In the case for Wolf, I do think there are two other nerfs that are in-contention along with back air. One of which is his weight. Wolf actually got one of the largest weight nerfs in the transition to Ultimate. His weight in Brawl was 102, which was the equivalent of a semi-heavyweight, and it got reduced to 92 in Ultimate, which is the equivalent to a light-midweight. Combo resistance due to the lighter weight doesn't even matter since hitstun canceling got drastically nerfed since Brawl. The other is his up special, which goes noticeably less far and would've already benefitted a lot from the removal of ledge-hogging. However, I am more shaky with this one since it got some notable buffs in other areas, but the distance nerf is pretty noticeable. As for DK, he didn't really get nerfed much from the loss of Ding Dong, especially since it is still technically possible, and his grab game got heavily buffed outside of that and thus remains incredible. DK in general received mostly buffs across the board. The biggest nerfs to DK is honestly existing in Ultimate, as the airdodge changes makes his already bad disadvantage, poor to the point of memeworthy, and his grappler-esque focused playstyle got nerfed heavily due to shield grabbing being a whole lot worse and the buffs to everyone's approach thanks to the better movement options and reduced landing lag on aerials. He in general hates Ultimate's aerial focused meta. But since all of that is more indirect, his biggest direct nerf is definitely aerial Spinning Kong, as it no longer has intangibility on frames 3-6, and it lost a whole lot of damage, which was something DK players would utilize in up throw combos in SSB4. That latter aspect of the move would've benefitted a lot from the fact that aerial up B now has a proper launcher hit. My point about DK also applies with Mewtwo. When you compare with SSB4 Mewtwo's tail hurtbox, it didn't actually increase by that much, especially after it got buffed at 4.0.0. The airdodge change was definitely the killing blow. Mewtwo relied on his airdodge a lot in SSB4, especially since he was even lighter in that game. It was essentially a get-out-of-jail free card. Now his status as a tall, floaty lightweight is now completely exposed, which skews his risk-reward ratio beyond belief. In terms of direct changes, I think his biggest nerf was nair. His moveset got mostly direct buffs across the board, but this one definitely sticks out as directly nerfed. The move has a shorter duration, which isn't much by itself, but its overall duration wasn't changed to compensate, which significantly increased the endlag of the move which is in combination of it taking longer to interrupt. All of its hitboxes except for the final one also got reduced as well.
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
With Wolf, yeah it's the weight nerf while still getting combo'd the same due to higher hitstun, same as Ivy. DK, his Up-B lost it's frame 3 I-Frames & it doesn't stall as long in the air for mix-ups, which made it an okay recovery move before & since DK has a very bad disadvantage state, he would have appericated his old Up-B. (The grounded one is a little better, but it's laggier and isn't good enough to make up for it IMO)
@the_bookworm8281 Жыл бұрын
@@MrGameguyC Grounded up B is definitely much better, as it KO's a little earlier, has earlier super armor, and most importantly of all, actually functions properly. In SSB4, the move did not work whatsoever. Other moves like ROB side B and Bowser grounded up B was also cursed with this. Endlag nerf doesn't matter since it was already super punishable on whiff/block.
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
@@the_bookworm8281 Fair points, but I still don't agree.
@ThatOneWeirdFlex Жыл бұрын
Imo, if they kept Limit as it was in Smash 4, Cloud would be better but not even that much better. It sucks that the one time he was canon, he HAD to be gutted along with the change in general from Smash4 to Ultimate.
@llliwwille Жыл бұрын
For Toon Link I think that his worst change overall is the nerfs to his smash attacks. You talked about f-smash in the video but up smash and down smash both were nerfed and one of his big issues in Ult is killing so I think that’s his biggest nerf
@slimballs9650 Жыл бұрын
Even when the quality dropped a little bit, I could still see his smile widen during the Roy montage.
@spat9348 Жыл бұрын
I legit thought that was a spinda in your thumbnail
@The_DGO Жыл бұрын
Pichu's up smash went from nearly fox levels of strong to pretty weak all in all.
@MrJack8700 Жыл бұрын
Idk Donkey Kong doesn’t feel very gutted, you can still cargo into up air. It is just an early percent combo tool now. DK is still a monster ngl
@MrFancyDragon Жыл бұрын
It kinda baffles me how Smash Ultimate made some really good buffs to a lot of veterans but when it came to their worst changes… A lot of these just make you ask Why? Like, what was the reason they removed it? Especially to low tier characters who struggle in the meta why do you give them big nerfs?! I may be exaggerating a bit, but ultimates logic when it comes to balancing their roster is the definition of “We’re not making waves, but here’s some patch notes so you can shut up about it”
@MayBeSomething Жыл бұрын
At 8:56, if you go fullscreen, then progress bar lines up with the progress bar of the video he's watching. At least, it does on my laptop.
@equinox-XVI Жыл бұрын
I used to main toon link and I will forever say that the removable/major nerf to bomb fake outs is what made me switch mains. Its probably wasn't that big of a deal competitively, but I still felt like a major reduction to his overall complexity
@randomguy8107 Жыл бұрын
Luma gentleman doesnt kill but his rapid jab does so decently well, albeit on the side
@randomguy8107 Жыл бұрын
Actually very well, I am killing people at 100
@gamexpert1990 Жыл бұрын
31:15 While it may very well still be the "worst" change for Mii Gunner between games, saying it's "not necessarily bad" is kinda doing F-Air a bit of a disservice, since it now allows for some phenomanal movement tech options.
@petetehpandag0d Жыл бұрын
Mii gunner fun
@kicksyo2171 Жыл бұрын
Nice. I love when you watch your older content.
@kikov69 Жыл бұрын
Not sure if I agree with the DK take. Losing Ding Dong isn't a great thing, but he still has a phenomenal advantage state and a plethora of ways to kill and can utilize cargo in other ways to kill like with Cargo Dthrow. His overall kit got a lot of buffs actually, I think his worse change is to his Up B. Goes much less further than Sm4sh, has much more landing lag and the hitbox is smaller as well
@MrGameguyC Жыл бұрын
Agreed.
@JumpHigherVA Жыл бұрын
Ding dong, toot toot, beep boop...Smash players come up with the silliest combo names lmao
@otheusrex2190 Жыл бұрын
@mockrocktalk zelda's worse change in ultimate is definitely her nair not comboing reliably. while the dtilt change took away a good mid and high % kill confirm, with the vast improvements to phantom and her increased mobility, amazing upair, and vastly improved ledge gaurding she's not that harmed by dtilt not leading into fair as realibly (Ven actually gets dtilt into fair at the ledge pretty often anyways). but nair in sm4sh used to be a reliable combo extender at low and mid % (with any launch hit into a nair into a kick) and a reliable mid and high % kill set up (drag down nair into up b elevator). if she had a nair that combo'd as well as sm4sh's nair then she could reliably 0% combo someone offstage for over 40 damage and set up directly into her main win condition
@LunaMinuna Жыл бұрын
For Megaman, as a ex Megaman player(no pun Intended) I would say leaf shield. Compared to smash 4, each leaf doesn’t disperse after hit but you weren’t limited to holding down the button and barley being able to move around with it. Correct me if I’m wrong it’s been a while since I’ve played Megaman in both versions. Also with sma4h leaf shield you could grab opponent and deal some extra damage
@itsdevillion Жыл бұрын
as a smash 4 Zelda player I want to mention that her old nair had drag down combos into kill confirms and combo extensions like uptilt, grab, up b, etc. In ult it will pop the opponent up with each hit leading to less true followups, and to make it worse, it is also easier to cross up midway through the move or just miss the second half all together if you hit it with any momentum.
@skyslasher2297 Жыл бұрын
5:00 Eh she’s a good fighter and athletic but I’d argue her current design is more faithful having played the Metroid games her only real attacking options are projectiles that goes for the 2d classics and the PrIme games which are FPS games where you shoot people
@misirtere9836 Жыл бұрын
I mean, Ultimate came out before Dread so obviously they couldn't account for it, but Dread certainly makes her a lot more of a melee fighter than she used to be. She still mostly relies on projectiles, but the melee counter is slick and strong. Although the [REDACTED] seems like it'd be more of a Final Smash thing, you could easily justify it giving her a much better grab game.
@skyslasher2297 Жыл бұрын
@@misirtere9836 I hope in future games the parry becomes a new forward or up tilt.
@dieblauebedrohung Жыл бұрын
Since you mentioned some Moves being among "the best in the entire series", I would love to see a collection of that. Basically like your "the best move of every kind" Video, but not with all of Smash Ultimate, but all of Smash History combined, seeing how broken a Character could be when using all Games. Well, maybe not 64. In general, it would be hard to balance that list and you'd have to imagine how those moves would work in Ultimate's Engine, but a fun experiment nonetheless I think.