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I remember talking to my sociology professor(a man) about how boys and girls stand when talking to eachother back in 2004. It feels good to hear my ideas validated

My dad and I used to talk about how Japan's masculinity was going down the drain back in the 90s/2000s (hence why we ultimately didn't move to Japan once I got older, we stayed in the U.S. fearing that Japan was failing). Decades later, this phenomena is now here in the U.S.

As a barman I saw the 120/180 degree behaviour in people standing at the bar. I learnt so much from watching people.

This guy has such a good philosophy and balanced solution for interacting with the modern age of technology. We need more like him.

It's okay to face a man square-on when greeting and departing, but other than that, "squaring up" feels like a confrontation. Even fighters are often uncomfortable looking each other in the eye before the fight.

120° for men also allows for more peripheral vision for predator clocking.

2009 is right about when the world started blaming all there problems on young men while at the same time telling them they’re privileged and should be way ahead in life. It’s no wonder they started gradually getting depressed.

More and more structured towards girls…I think you blurted about 90s, but already by the 80s this was hitting its stride. How do we get it more widely known that this problem is not only decades old, but that society is unimaginably clueless about this and the problems it has and will continue to cause??

That ‘male withdrawal’ started in the 70s and 80s is true. Someone reminded me recently of the feminist meme ‘a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bike’. There were plenty of similar memes. Reading that as a boy or young man would make them hesitate to try to form relationships - why bother if you won’t be needed?

The looking for approval behavior shows how little a person knows themselves. Psychology should be all over this trying to understand where this behavior is coming from. Instead they ignore it and rationalize why it’s normal. It isn’t. There is something wrong with a large part of our population

Incredible stuff Chris. In the pre smart phone era….When I was a young single man, we would try to get better at talking to women in a few ways….Talk and flirt to women that must talk to you: waitresses, bartenders, hostesses. In fact we would go to gentleman’s clubs and talk to the dancers for no other reason then engaging a beautiful woman in conversation. It absolutely helps with approach anxiety and improves your ability to talk to women.

I am “free” in world that is no longer designed for me but if I think about leaving I’m the bad guy

People need to realize how disastrous it was to tell people they shouldn't date people they work with. After school, where are you suppose to meet people? All of my adult friendships I've had spawned from either my wife's family or working with someone. People are so scared that any advance towards them is frightening because of HR and this shit rule.

2 practical things I learned from video games: 1: How to operate heavy machinery. It's so similar to video games that it's extremely intuitive. 2: Rock band and guitar hero taught me how to play drums, super underrated video games.

I guess that's why they call preparing to fight "squaring up"

I have to applaud Chris’s research in the field, his acumen, and his delivery of complex ideas. It’s impressive time and time again. However, there seems to be a trend with young men today to succeed rather than connect, to ‘train’ for it, rather than ‘be’ it. For example, being able to relate to women is not a skill, not a technique, not a process to learn through some AI tool or any other tool or practice one must master. Yes, different communicative tools can help. But relating to someone needs no a mastery of any technique, whether it be from AI, or some martial arts technique, or any kind of process. Relating to others is not a ‘mastery’ of anything. It’s a vulnerability. It’s laying yourself bare, open, exposed. That’s where the real strength and the real courage lie. That’s where real connection begins. There’s this growing paradigm with men today that they need to ‘do’ something to ‘get the girl’ or ‘find true love.’ I know it comes out of good intentions, but honestly, it’s not only shallow but downright degrading to human relationships. People aren’t tasks. Girls aren’t trophies. Finding love is not a goal. We need to turn back to just being. Being real. Longing to connect, share, help, encourage … and stop this nonsense of making everything an exercise at the gym or some mental routine in order to ‘get’ what we want. This premise has taken over the US in recent years and it needs to stop before it spreads elsewhere. Let’s turn back to being human again. Back to caring about others and not so obsessed with what we are getting. ❤

I am always so impressed with Jonathan Haidt when I see him being interviewed. He's a scholar and a pundit but he's always such a gentleman. His analyses are incisive and he's humble in his responses. I never see anyone who is being interviewed be so interested in the views of the interviewer. It makes me want to hear more from him.

My two cents as a 38/m with money and a boat that has completely checked out after dating regularly until 33: it isn’t worth it. I don’t feel like boyfriends/husbands/fathers are valued at all in modern society. You can get a date very easily, the market is saturated, because so many men just don’t want to bother (too much supply, not enough demand).

This convo reminds me so hard, why I love men! Especially intelligent, respectful ones. Way to go Chris, awesome guest 😊

I see alot of social problems happen nowadays due to cowardly soft people only speaking their mind when they get enraged. It eliminates problem solving and memory is reduced when angry so it's likely to happen again and again.

10:57. Great idea but the only thing I’d be wary of is falling head over heels for my VR headset & eventually having seccs with it & it leaving me because I became to clingy or gave it the ick 🤷‍♂️

Historically we have always had cultural methods to deal with shyness in courting. In some cultures men are simply given child brides - problem solved. In others there is arranged marriage. And in the west, alcohol has granted men the temporary superpower of "liquid courage". None of these solutions are ideal so here's an idea: why don't we teach boys in school a few lessons on how to approach girls, to build their confidence?

I personally dislike flirting. It's just putting on a mask and trying to be "that guy" (or girl). Just be a human and seek honest connection. Be curious about the other person. Be genuine, ask questions, be friendly for the sake of it. And yeah, stay safe, don't open up 100% from the beginning. And train yourself to process emotional damage in a healthy way. Some people are jerks, it's not your fault. But it's all about connection. That's what we need & crave, deep inside.

I’m gonna try this… The angle of conversation thing.

This is such an important topic.

Using AI for interpersonal training has huge application. If AI can discern facial micro expressions, voice inflexions, speech, body language, etc., the training possibilities are wide and extensive. Not just young males and nero-divergent can improve but business people of all strata.

I graduated in 1989 and there WAS 0% help for anyone who learned differently or did not get advanced Math that was not already attuned to it. The school tossed you aside if you were not low maintenance, in sports, or your parents were not of $$$. College was not a priority unless your parents went till the 1990's when a semester was $800, and at the time you could work full time at a gas station and afford a house.

I'm getting on and sometimes forget, but I only had one day of paintball in my 20's and it was video games ×10 level fun. I wish i got into it, but I never went back.

Best guest ever. *Elon Musk should hire Jonathan Haidt.* To lead a team. Product development. A bunch of evo-psychology people. A bunch of video game designers. A bunch of education people like the guy who runs The Khan Academy. Tell them to design video games for boys. To educate boys, base on what works.

Read haidts book. Its really good

Haidt is righ. There was this time in my life were I was one of the best in the country at a specific online game. Had even developed a brand new way of playing the game in a sucessfull way when others had failed. At some point I remember thinking to myself I'm really good at this however it's not adding any value to my life, my real life. That is when I stopped playing that game and turned to learning valuable skills in real life. Now I can basically disassemble and reassemble my cars and I'm building most of my house on my own. Now I'm learning how to weld and hopefully start doing artistic fences, doors and others objects that I need for myself and for other people as a side hussle.

CBT was simply a name for decades of cognitive and behavioral research in psychology. Pavlov got it going academically almost 100 years ago. Joseph Wolpe published his book on behavior therapy in 1958.

IIRC, the effects on girls' mental health weren't always negative. From what I recall of the early Facebook research at least, more girls felt positive effects than negative effects. It was just that the media only focused on the negative effects.

Hey Chris, interesting conversation about boys and girls and how they use technology differently. The idea of virtual reality for practicing social skills is intriguing, especially for building confidence. Would love to hear more about your thoughts on that in the future.

Haven't played video games in years, but I miss playing DotA 2.

I feel like i have to pick on Jonathan Haidt here for a minute. These types of people shape the discourse in this country and yet their life experience (which is often extremely limited) is radically different than most of us. When Haidt talked about playing paint guns for the first time at age 29 i almost laughed out loud. Most normal boys are playing some form of warfare by age 6 or 7. Whether its squirt guns or running around in the woods using one's imagination. We were shooting eachother with paintballs by age 12 with no protective gear. This kind of thing typically evolves into organized sports where one's "killer instinct" is hopefully cultivated in a way that keeps the violence in check. The point is, these scientists write these books and make themselves out as authorities on life and living when they have done none of their own. "Haidt received a BA in philosophy from Yale University in 1985, (at age 21) and an MA in psychology in 1988 (age 23) and a PhD in psychology from the University of Pennsylvania in 1992." roughly age 28. So he basically skipped the whole part where you actually grow from a boy to a man and just went straight to being a scientist studying the rest of us. You really need to start looking critically at these guys.

The flirting simulator WILL NOT HELP with false accusations, abuse and having your children taken away from you.

What payoff? A house and a family? Either can simply be taken from them if they can even obtain them in the first place.

Is this a re-release of an episode you’ve already put out?

Also, when the objective of relationships is no longer creating and maintaining a family, the reason for flirting etc is less clear. On average men are more interested in objects and woman are more interested in people. For women the reason for the relationships may be more centered on individual people, but for men it maybe be more centered on the object known as family. Object and objective.

We have flirting simulators - we call it "Online Dating Apps" - And we see how it works!

Japan has a similar idea. I’m sure it could help

I don't think virtual flirting would work. The nuances are too varied by individual. It's not like a video game Guys only get nervous around girls they find attractive. To practice flirting, just talk to girls or women that you're not into. No risk of rejection with someone you're not interested in.

Have you noticed that some games advertise using “real world” status based on “Virtual world”

Its 0 degrees for women, 120 degrees for men, actually. 180 degrees means shoulder to shoulder in perfect alignment.

“That will pay off in the long run”… This could be argued. The old ways of payoff are not looking realistic to most men. What men need right now is a realignment of their desires.

Haidt my beloved. Great chemistry between you two, too Chris.

The way women use technology naturally reinforces & empowers them. That’s really when technology became popular among women only when it started catering to them. Men use tech to criticize/analyze ourselves more than anything. Compare ourselves to the “meta” of whatever we’re looking into. Cause naturally we’re always looking to improve.

@ChrisWillx - How about instead of playing a VR video game of guys chatting to women in public, they just go out and meet them in real life like men have been doing for thousands of years and learning from it

Running with the flirting simulator concept, one could combine several ideas to produce an AI girlfriend who is also a personal assistant and provides motivation and guidance for working out, getting homework done, and mediates initial interactions with actual girls who might themselves have digital assistants.

Is it physically possible for Chris to make a video without mentioning me too? I'm beginning to think it's not. lol

Damn this is good

My best mate and I (both males) often eat out together. We sit opposite each other and it never feels confrontational. Maybe that's because we are eating? At times it does feel a bit like a date though, which is a tad weird, but I'm usually hungry when he comes over, so what you gonna do?

Still talking about the feet angles. When Chris gets a new arrow in his quiver he uses it every chance he gets doesn’t he?

It would've been interesting to hear Haidt speak.

There was a game created back in the early 2000's, it was set in Japan and as Haidt expected, its goal was to get the girl to go back to a love hotel with you.

At '29' he figures out about hunting and fighting as a dude? We were doing this by 5 🙄

Chris, did you see the twilight zone episode where an astronaut was sent to another planet to scope it out. A "female" robot was sent with him to help in his research. Well it was just matter of time before he fell in love with "her." A rocket ship was sent to pick him up. He refused because he didn't want to be separated from her. Sometime after the spaceship left the springs in the robot went awry. She was no longer able to communicate and then the robot was rendered useless. The man was now stuck there for the rest of his life, alone, forlorn, and in despair. it was not just that he was alone but he was in love and it was unrequited. It was a heartbreaking episode

That theory sounds really interesting. The male sedation theory.

I match the male pattern very well. I use KZfaq for podcasts and content men are interested in. I was a transman for 14 years. Thought I was a boy throughout childhood as well. I've only lived as a woman for a year. Since my psychology was so male, it was natural to feel like a man and see that mirrored in other men.

There is no social interaction education class part of a curriculum in school, I think this is a mistake

I'm an Unreal Engine dev who specializes in VR. I can implement your idea about the dating training simulation.

“Bladed” is taught for “Officer Safety” in Law Enforcement and saved my life. I choose 120 degrees bladed.

What was the point of the 120/180 degree behaviour difference in men and women talking? Like, other than an 'interesting' obversation to have made, what does it tell you?

I like the 180 degree observation. I don't agree with the non value of games. I sense oversimplification and not enough knowledge of the phenomenon.

Great book

Videogames are as valuable as sports if not MORESO. I was raised on competitive videogames, specifically DotA, and the insight to human nature in that game is what gave every single skill that allows me to do business. Business is essentially a lot like DotA where you get paired up with randoms and must use your ability to not take anything personal to collaborate and create value. You must have the personal insight to understand that though the specific games are luck based, averaged out in a decade or even a lifetime it's pretty skill based. The non skill based part is the RNG of your social status, starting wealth and connections but you can easily reason that after multiple lifetimes, everything honestly evens out since most rich people end up losing their fortune after a few generations. You play the cards your dealt and don't waste time ruminating if fhey could've been better.

Squaring off on someone is a term for preparing to fight in some places

Chris, your conversations are great!! Just food for thought but you might as well add DHHS, Judgeds and Police robots to interact with as well to prepare you for the real world of dating in the US. Also some inlaws and a baby however you only need those about 2hrs every other week... make this all at the cost of 2000$ a month or more the the Male who is thinking of interacting with Females in the US.

As an 18 years old young guy myself, I don't think the virtual women approach practice will go very well. Tech companies do not care about the state of our modern society. Just like Johnathan Haidt said at the end, it will devolve into some crazy shit. If you want virtual practice, just use online public video chats like OME TV.. I think part of the reason men are terrified to approach women is not only beacuse of fear of rejection, but also the embarrassment and fear of humiliation that comes from other men. It's men who keep a society civilized.

Your male sedation hypothesis is spot on when thinking about my life. Sad, really. I can do hard drugs and not get addicted. I got off coffee recently. I drink a few pints of beer a week. I stopped playing video games for years and years (but went back to them). Porn though, ha, that really is something else. Impossible for me to kick.

If every girl you meet is looking on Instagram at models, and you feel you can't live up to her virtual based expectations, your reason for seeking status goes away. You go on dates, and the expectation of who you are based on her social media conditioning is placed on you, and as soon as you break that illusion, that's where the "Ick" comes from.

While I do agree with most of this. Videogames is a place that is actively changing.

The problem is not knowing how to flirt, the problem is that there is no one to flirt with.

If you look at steam games dating sims appear to be a relatively popular thing.

The simulator would throw in a narcissist, or Machiavellian type every so often. And you have to be able to identify those types and use healthy boundary tactics that you learn in the training simulator to end the date. Obviously simulating human behavior with 100% accuracy is near impossible for now, but if it could, the harder levels would probably be dating people with high self esteem and healthy boundaries, then after the date it would give you feedback like your authenticity, boundaries, communication, ect. But the best real life example is making friends with older couples that have healthy lasting relationships that know your dating life. But I get it doesn’t always workout that way. Most are attached to learning to control others, while the few are attached to learning to control themselves.

They’re bringing back boyz 2 men?!? 😮

That’s why I quite video games, they are to addictive for me. Kept me from real world

Wait, by CBT are we talking about cognitive behavioral therapy or the other thing? I'm confused.

Chris, you're (at least in this short clip) missing one important point within that approaching anxiety which connects to the main topic: If your attempt in the real world fails it might pretty likely be posted or referred to on social media and everybody (!) will know. And if you play a game the rules are set and well defined (for everyone). Results are predictable, therefore replicable and failures relatable. With gamification (a virtual pua guide?) you're able to a certain point to simulate circumstances but definitely not human irrationality. Just ask an autistic person. So let some guys play that game and fail out threre with social stigmata included. How many do you think will turn bitter or angry bc of false hopes and how many play safe and stick to that game?

I read the coddling of the American mind by haidt and his colleague, it was only ok

Facing a man straight on feels confrontational. I didn't know why that is, but I've felt it

I quit video games 2 months ago at 35 and my sleep instantly improved. I also suddenly became more productive through reading, investing and more successful with attracting women. Video games rob you of what I call your "ambitious energy" the same way you'd expect porn to rob you of your "sexual ambitious energy."

Picture frame cat ears guy i missed you

Men need struggle. Need effort and purpose

Reality is broken

The appeal of video games is in their difference to reality. Just not the ones you focus on here. The fillowing applies to all games in the sense that games that either fail to do this or deliberately not do this are vastly less popular. The first important thing is that you can always know which efforts have resulted in which rewards and which actions have had which consequence. In a video game time is compressed, growth and decay, success and failure happen happen at many times the speed of reality. This has two major effects: Gratification for correct choices is near immediate and the times you have to wait and wallow in uncertainty, doubt and confusion is comparatively non existent. Every factor, every event in a video game is predictable given enough information on the side of the player. Sure, a coin flip is still a coin flip, but guessing coin flips is pointless unless you want to turn this into some MK Ultra psyop shit. Lastly, every problem in a video game is designed to be solved and solving problems nets you rewards. Life begs to differ.

Did Chris just advocate for the revolution of dating sims😂

I think the AI practice date would only push men farther into the AI world. AI practice date becomes the AI girlfriend. Being a Boomer that got squeezed out by the feminists....now too old to date....an AI girlfriend sounds great! As far as society goes...the culling is very real...hard to say what it will look like afterwards.

When such "training dating game" will get good enough, users would ask themselves "Why bother moving from it?". A lot of companies rn skipping this step and going right to the end-product Be it romance - which is mostly emotionally-colored memories - or even procreation, tech will solve it all over time

If guys practice flirting with a competent AI flirter model what's to suggest they DO apply that in the real world as opposed to just flirt in the virtual world with the low risk sexting girlfriend they've just been chatting with.

The statement about 120° for men and 180° for women is most probably nonsense. We all look for patterns and constants, and create all sorts of fantasy stories around them. Just because you see men standing differently from women in a bar doesn’t mean it applies to all men, let alone that it means something "special". Even if it meant something significant, the setting could make a big difference too. Men might stand differently when talking in a bar compared to on the street. Culture also matters. The "conversation stance observation" of men might be very different in other cultures, like Japanese, Swedish, or Nigerian. The most obvious explanation is that there is no real difference between men and women in this regard. There might be differences among men themselves. However, these differences (most probably) don't necessarily mean anything significant.

Yea I have a curious mind but can’t focus for shit in school so guess I’ll fail or take drugs that help me focus yay! I love this world and all who inhabit it ✨

Me trying to remember the last time i stood perpendicular to another Woman... 🤔 I kinda stand 120 degrees as well. I think maybe mostly city Women get up & personal with eachother. Country Women stand back from eachother. But i also grew up with Brothers & if i talked to them or my Dad, i stood beside them to talk to them. Most Countryside Women are pretty Masculine in mannerisms because we tend to be raised on dirt bikes & in labourous conditions. Ive rolled a 4-wheeler bike on 3 different occasions. People get messed up in 4-wheeler accidents so as soon as i felt the bike tipping i jumped & rolled out of the way 😂 All hands on deck. Beers for all workers at the end of the day. Almost no woman gets her nails done because our hands get beaten up a bit by a working lifestyle. Its pointless. I have NEVER had my nails done ever, i don't even know what its like or what they do to do it. Likewise few Women go to the salon regularly or do girly things, there is no point to it 🤷🏼‍♀️ Ive suspected for a little while that my brain is a bit more masculine because i also enjoy agency if the alternative is too painful to endure. Freedom is a value for a reason, its because ive experienced relatively little freedom in my life, and most of my experience has been of subjugation, which is horrible.

dating sims?

So when does the real conversation start that goes like this “Women must be better in society and lose their egos and toxic behaviors” I’m guessing never

Practice flirting is a genius idea 💡👍

Chris always talks about incentives. What’s this guy’s incentive structure? I’m increasingly getting the thought in my mind when I hear him talk “this guy is trying to freak everyone out to sell more books…”

I’m currently waiting a month for Instagram to delete my account. Kinda wild how I can’t just straight up have it deleted when I want to. They’re assuming I’ll start missing that crap or something 🤣 no, I want it deleted IMMEDIATELY because it just ain’t meant for the average male. But you know what is? Skyrim, battlefield, need for speed.