Hello you savages. Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - chriswillx.com/books/ Here’s the timestamps: 00:00 What Actually Makes an Attractive Face? 05:30 Why Masculine Faces Can Cause Concern for Women 13:56 The Different Signals of Make-Up & Tan 18:17 What Makes an Eye Attractive? 20:20 Why We Are So Drawn to Faces 26:28 Do Women Like Muscular Men? 31:34 Do Men Like Heavier Women? 42:11 Men’s Tastes Are Shaped by Social Ecology 46:10 Is There a Generally Attractive Waist to Hip Ratio? 54:27 What Role Does Height Play in Attraction? 1:02:12 What Happens When the Female is the Breadwinner 1:12:14 Worst Mating & Dating Myths 1:16:00 Are Women Really More Picky Than Men? 1:26:00 Discriminating Based on Hair Colour 1:30:59 Do Men Want Wider Age Gaps as They Age? 1:35:16 How Attractive Are Tattoos? 1:41:20 What You Need to Know About Stated v Revealed Preferences 1:51:37 The Counter-Signal of Saying ‘I Don’t Know’ 2:01:28 Where to Find Macken

“Hey ladies, I don’t have horrific facial trauma.” Is going in my tinder bio.

“Able to withstand the insults of their environment” one of the smartest things I’ve heard and explains why symmetry is attractive

Basically to sum that episode up "No one really knows for sure"

Around 19:30 he talks about how eye color matters less if you're in a room of people with the same eye color, but if you're the odd one out color wise, it may benefit you. This reminds me of one time when I went to a Lamborghini dealership. They had like 10 of the same model, and it made them seem sooo much less interesting and valuable, compared to seeing one alone on the road. I was taken aback by how subconsciously they seemed so much less cool when there were a bunch of them sitting together in one place.

Macken probably runned my favorite podcast ever with "Species", as a big fan of animals and biology he was the only person to ever go into so much detail about so many different animal species that i've ever seen, TV shows would never trust their viewer into being smart enough to be given so many details, but Macken did. And so really, I can never promote that podcast enough, it's really something to experience.

I feel like this whole discussion could be encapsulated with "People like positive rarity"

Being a guy with a very feminine face myself, I can definitely attest through my own personal experience that there are a lot of women that are very attracted to feminine features in men. Men are made to believe that if you aren't hyper masculine in every way then you're destined to be an incel, but in reality this is not true. I'm 26 but look like a 16 year old because the way my face is, and very often get bullied and shamed for it, but at the same time a lot of girls have told me that I am very attractive. Dudes are always shocked whenever there is an attractive girl interested in me because I am the complete opposite of what you would call a "masculine" male adult, and because of this I was made to think something was wrong with the way I look, but I'm beginning to accept myself for who I am now.

There is a big difference between short-term and long-term mate selection

Now we also need a podcast with hoe_math hahaha

1:39:54 "Sometimes you don't want to look more beautiful, you want to signal underlying personality traits." Brilliant concise summary of that point!

This man speaks like someone who doesn’t want to lose their job

Thank you so much for having me on, Chris, it was a pleasure. And thank you for your continual promotion of the evolutionary human behavioral sciences; it suits you better than club promotion!

Really interesting conversation. However, it feels like everything Macken says, goes through a certain filter first…

"There is no exquisite beauty... without some strangeness in the proportion." - Edgar Allan Poe

As a woman When I see an outfit modeled by an overweight model it turns me off. I’m not attracted to the outfit anymore.

I was hoping they would discuss on tattoo section of the podcast about a study where they found childhood trauma is linked to tattoos and piercings. Would have been interesting to hear how that affects dating behavior and how some people find others with similarities attractive. The study is called "The association of childhood abuse and neglect with tattoos and piercings in the population: evidence from a representative community survey"

I’ve been asked over 10 times this winter if I have kids. I’ve never been asked this question once before but this winter I’ve really grown out a beard. Finally I have an answer to this riddle. Thanks Chris and Macken

Many intelligent, creative men realized that industrial Jobs and classroom education were stifling and monotonous so decided to break free and live with less security and less money while pursuing more meaningful entrepreneurial side hustles, or technical professions where we are our own bosses. Many want work where they have more control over everything and don't mind finding ways to live with less, like getting used instead of new things for example. Many women are doing the opposite, they are putting effort into schools and Jobs now so that they can be independant, have money for travel and property. Women are finally able to get into that lifestyle we are getting out of. Women dont like this because men aren't going for the big bucks like before, yet women want to work so choose to focus less on being there as a partner for a man. It can be easier for women to see men as less than them, unmotivated, undeserving because of this. Men who stay in the 9 to 5 work are often unhappy, boring, uncreative, tired, too busy, sick, and generally worn out by the grind. That's why man began rejecting the industrial employment once they had the chance. Some women can become overly proud of themselves and can fall to the game of pushing others down to lift themselves up. Some lack the compassion and patience they once needed to be in harmony with men now that they don't focus on that as much. Others are distracted and ambitious, thinking of relationships as impossible and too much trouble with all the other stuff they have to do to make it. There is also more of a culture that is synthetic, toxic, unhealthy, nutritionally deficient, alcoholic, smokers, weaker bodies,mentally ill, ugly people. Many people are so into their smart phones that they ruin the time they used to be 100% deeply engaged with a partner. They are distracted, not making eye contact, you need to repeat what you say to them 3 times, their posture is bad, its a selfish dynamic, that an untested technology is producing. Women wanted out of the role of homemaker so the traditional roles went out the window for them. Men decided that if women dont have to follow the rules they wont either. So they can get what we wanted too, an endless stream of dates with no commitmentment or children, no need to spend years on a boring education or a job working for all that extra money a family needs, etc. Now they can focus on drugs, video games, and short term pleasure instead of the bigger disciplined game of family, relationships and work. Now that religión is out of their way some don't feel obligated to think of morality or traditional practices as valuable for them.

I'm not of God of War fan, but when Kratos grew a beard that was when he became a dedicated dad

Jordan Peterson’s whole argument about that woman not being attractive has to do with the wide-spread condition of metabolic disorders which is a crisis in the society and how there’s an attempt to normalize it, specially in light of having just come out of a pandemic with those who suffered the most were those who had those conditions.

Ok . This guy seems very conscious not to offend women

As with all social scientists, Macken Murphy is quick to chastise men’s behavior, but will caveat into oblivion any antisocial behaviors from women

One of my favorite episodes of this podcast

Women are going to love this episode.

2 points if I may. 1) opportunity. I know you touched on it but 'opportunity' must be absolutely on the top of the reasons why we end up with who we do, and 2) have you ever included studies into 'Arranged marriages' and how views of one's partner changes over the years. How well do 'Arranged marriages' work. Does the 'wisdom' of the elders actually help in matching couples into productive loving relationships?

A better comparison of male facial features versus female facial features than beards versus no beards would be strong jaw lines versus soft rounded more feminine jaw lines.

I love how positive Chris speaks about his listeners.

I'm gonna give the simple forbidden (partial) answer to why faces matter: Physiognomy. A person who is angry all the time will display this on their face. A person who is anxious, stressed, sleep deprived, etc. Your attitude through life will reflect on your face and be readable.

One thing I think is very wrong is to say that there's no "should" in this question. Health should be attractive, because health is largely heritable and healthy offspring are better to have than not healthy offspring. Anyone whose instincts get rewired away from favoring health will find their lineage ruined over time. This "ultra objectivity" is a cop-out. Just assume that successful long term propagation of the species is good. Now you can say should and should not.

A factor that came to mind a few times was expectation of family, specifically parents. Even friends. Whether it’s looks or social economic preferences and actual choice.

As a single dude who just came off a couple “failed” dates (just not working out but I’m dating with the priority of seeking a long-term relationship), this podcast is absolutely fascinating. I wish you guys talked for 4 hours.

Extremely enjoyable conversation

Great discussion, but these discussions have the sense we're arguing about the operating system, but we're not quite there on BIOS. Genuinely, appreciate the conversation. DBL like

One satisfying result from my dissertation research was proving that laypeople's predictions about the outcome of my research were the exact opposite of what the facts stated. They were biased in their predictions because of preconceived prejudices against a particular pattern. Objectively measuring this pattern allowed the actual behaviours to be revealed. Very satisfying to point at a figure and say 'the facts don't lie'.

Chris Williamson got him here. He won't admit that women believe in hypergamy, but it's true. I can tell you that I've dated many PhDs in DC (I have just 2 bachelor's). They tell me that I'm very attractive and a good person, but ultimately end up leaving me, because I don't have the status (careerwise), or don't make as much funds. Hypergamy is very real!

How attractive beards are totally depends on the individual and their beard. Some look clean and are shaped in a way that suits the individual's face shape. They look good. Some just look like they're storing crumbs from previous meals and scratchy/uncomfortable to kiss. Whether the beard fits in with the rest of the person's style and demeanour vs looks like it's based purely on not wanting to / forgetting to / being too lazy to shave matters. Just as you'll find many different websites helping women choose the right clothes for their body shape I think men could use a website helping them to select a beard style that suits their face. I'm not surprised at all at the huge variation in research results RE beards because beards themselves and how they compliment the face they're on are sooo variable.

Your subscription base represents roughly 16% of the total enrollment in us universities. Congrats 🍾 wiser every day through dialogue

Really interesting episode. Thanks guys!

“Where my hug at?” is the best pickup line I can do

Bro was yapping ab that tattoo FOR SURE

This was super cool. I love that I'm not that weird of a person and I make more sense to me. Thanks.

Love the Set up ❤

This was great, very insightful. I love hearing different perspectives because many times two things can be true at the same time. Dialectics is important to understand in conversations like this. I believe when it comes to problematic behavior, it is a human condition problem rather than a gender problem. Men and women can do horrific things, and with the differing characteristics of both sexes these actions may manifest differently. Men and women shouldn’t be against each other, men and women together should be more forgiving towards the gender as a whole. Men have done terrible things to me and I know there are some cruel people out there, but I’d never blame the gender as a whole..I know there are some wonderful kind men too. Once we realize this we can function a lot better in society ❤

I believe that women's preference for a partner's social status is protean and varies greatly depending on context. For example, a woman who identifies with a hippie lifestyle might view a man proficient in playing the guitar as possessing an attractive status. Conversely, a successful lawyer may initially look for a partner who shares characteristics with high-profile figures like Harvey Specter. Yet, due to the rarity of such ideal partners, she might instead value other traits that signify competence and respect. Consequently, her options could include professionals like policemen, soldiers, or firefighters, artists from various disciplines, or even a charismatic friend who has recently opened a restaurant. Even if she earns more than her partner, this does not imply that he holds a 'lower' status. The fundamental desire is for a partner who is competent and esteemed. Nevertheless, I find it more challenging to imagine women aspiring to be with the archetype of the attractive, stay-at-home man. Will societal views on this shift swiftly? I tend to think that while behaviors might adapt over short periods, the underlying preferences, which are embedded in evolutionary biology, are likely to evolve over much longer timescales.

Great pod! See this guy at Bicester village all the time 😭

*The Guest and the Topic are very eye-opening and are a confirmation of what most people would expect without the influence of outside sources.* *It is always a blessing to be able to reevaluate your opinion while listening to a well-educated, well-spoken guest.* *_The world doesn't seem to be so black and white after all_*

I would be interested to know if, as societal tumult increases, men and women prefer more muscular mates, and as the perceived danger goes down, the desire for muscularity decreases. Considering that environmental factors are contributing to resource scarcity while the world population continues to grow, a future involving combat for scarce resources - land, food, WATER, - will become a reality, and perhaps muscularity in both men and women will signal an ability to survive.

I am wondering if women prefer more feminine features in male faces because of the effects of the birth control pill?

A friend of mine had a car accident when she was a kid, she flew thru front window, got stuck in it with neck exposed and carotid artery exposed. They saved her, did basic reconstruction surgery as good as they could 30 years ago. She grew up embracing her scars, she is confident, strong, entrepreneur, independent, has cue of men running after her, and always posts on social media that her scars made her value in herself and others the inner beauty. She often gets asked why doesn't she want to do plastic surgery to remove the scars, she says she wouldn't be true to herself self if she would remove the scars 😊

20:00 I'd say that the externality of facial appearances being more valued and observed when compared to other body parts like your example (hands) is because of multiple reasons, I'll name a few that I can think of on the top of my head, I'm not an expert but im just using logical reasoning impose a hypothesis. 1) Your face is closer to the sun than the rest of your body so theoretically it would absorb more UV damage when compared to other body parts and so it's a better judgement for genetic damage. 2) We naturally look at peoples faces more than other body parts because thats where our externalities of expression lies, like our eyebrows, eyes and mouthes/teeth. 3) The skin on the faces is quite thin compared to elsewhere which would lead to better observations of constricted blood vessels and thus tiredness, think about your eyebags (the thinnest skin on our bodies) and if your tired then that means you've exerted more energy to produce, meaning your more likely to have worse survival traits. 4) Our teeth can allow us to determine someones diet, as we all know sugar makes our teeth yellowish and thus it would signal excess consumption and so your more likely to have beneficial survivial traits, its the opposite now however due to the processing of sugar cane. (Edit) 5) Our heads obviously contain our brain, the most important organ to our survival and the size of our face and damage to the face is a more significant factor for possible brain damage and possible inflamation. 6) Our hair tells us quite a bit about our nutritional obtainance and thus our level of nutritional consumption meaning were more likely to have beneficial survival characteristics. That's the 6 things I can think of but there could be more, like eye colour to determine genetic diversity, how big our nasal airways are so we can absorb more oxygen, etc.

LOOKSMAXXING, SKILLMAXXING, MONEYMAXXING, KNOWLEDGEMAXXING OR YOU'RE NGMI

What about the theory “If she smokes she pokes”? Can we test that?

I enjoy hearing new information. It came across a little toward the pedestalizing of women, but that was expected from the mouths of young men. The one takeaway I found most interesting was the attractiveness of women (by size) related to the economic environment. But for the most part it seems that the data is all over the place, bc people are complicated and diverse and more interesting than we can even comprehend on paper.

I want the PDF about the Playboy centerfolds changing depending on the economy too!!! Fascinating

Congrats on your citation Chris! 🥂 Fascinating chat today.

I would be interested in whether hip to waist ratio and facial symmetry are universally appealing to men regardless of total mass.

Maken’s work is fascinating and Chris was very well prepared! Great podcast ❤

As a guy who suffered what my surgeons called "catastrophic facial trauma" (complete nasal avulsion and lacerations to the upper right of the face and forehead) I do pretty ok. It was a car accident, I was passenger, my scars are bad ass though. Oh yeah 6 surgeries and I got a new nose made.

This is a really interesting conversation as a married Catholic man with a fundamentally different perspective on the function of sex to both you and those you are largely debunking (not sure if that's exactly the right term, but addressing red pill groups for example). In particular when discussing dating myths, you discussed the idea of it being optimal to have had somewhere between a few and several past sexual partners, with people who have not had sex previously being subject to an idea of "well, why have you not". I would emphasize that in the same way Macken discusses malleability elsewhere, it is also true here (though he didn't seem to recognize that - at least not as far as I have watched). Within religious cultures where there is an explicit reason why they have not, I would expect that this bell curve would be significantly shifted. Of course this comes with it a culture of moral purity, which can have its own issues. In this context for example where someone who has never been in a position to cross the moral line will put themselves as a moral superior to those have been in that position and who have made a mistake, or even been a victim of abuse, over this matter. This is obviously wrong. On the other hand both my wife and I have not had previous sexual partners, and that is very special to us to know that such intimacy was something we have only shared with each other. I would also say that it is very important within such situations, where you are abstaining until marriage, that there is lots of communication throughout the relationship (ie not just immediately before your first time) about what you are both expecting, to be prepared and to make sure both persons are able to communicate in the moment.

Love this episode. Been waiting for the two of you to talk about this subject. "Everyone who's listening to this podcast is jacked, so it's OK". 😆

Always enjoy anything ev psych related. Thank you for the reminders of many great guests you've had on that subject.

Being perfect in every domain life is exhausting. You gotta have a 6-pack & a 850 credit score just to get a date lmao

I loved this episode, and thought the interaction was good. Yes, there was a lot of “in general” and caveats, but I think that was to be fair to the research.

I fail to see any point in history, including those of food scarcity, where I prefer a hambeast over a defined, well proportioned woman. IDK, call me crazy, but a hambeast shows gluttony, sloth, and greed in character which proves to be rather awful motherly traits. I also fail to see the point in history with food scarcity where a woman would even be able to be a hambeast. It's scarce remember? She also has to actually move around to acquire that food, resulting in caloric loss. A well-defined woman who goes to the gym signals not only an abundance of caloric surplus (because she needs calories to exercise), but the discipline and physical prowess, which are traits I'd love to be expressed amongst my children. It also shows way more drive to be able to all that than sit around and eat to get fat. I also don't think it's fair to criticize Peterson's view when you are referencing data from an archaic age. Assuming your hypothesis is correct, food scarcity is NOT a thing at the moment, therefore the input variables change. It takes very minimal effort to be a hambeast at the moment. It might be why most people don't find them attractive.

This was my favorite episode

This was great 😂 Great podcast, guys.

Anyone else get the feeling Chris was not onboard with that majority of what his guest was saying here

Waist to hip ratio kinda goes out the window if you're as wide as a bus.

"Everyone who listens to this podcast is jacked, so it's okay" I loveeeee this, honestly! Awesome! ❤😊

That's why this discipline needs to work side by side with social and evolutionary Anthropologist to get that specific nuance response about attractivness. Saludos desde Chile.

this dude is setting off my spidey senses a little bit 🤔

Macken presents himself well and has interesting points, but I wish he would commit to a side in arguments. He should contextualize the research he’s familiar with ie western men tend to prefer a BMI in women between x and y.

Chris Great guest and I am sure this was overwhelming for a lot of viewers. Macken has had a most wonderful life

The pill probably affects those results, I would think... Do we know if that's a factor that has been considered in these studies? Because we do know that it affects choice of mates...

I stopped watching at there are some differences between gender and sex. I’m just not entertaining these people anymore.

I love his talking style. It's very straight foward and rational.

Love your podcast

Nice conversation. Beauty is "averageness" in general, its the ability to balance. That's why the Libra sign is related to Aphrodite, and Libra's symbol is the balanced scale.

Love this guy! Great to have him on!

Broken nose, scar on the face, i feel would come across as more "hard to kill" opposed to "counldt handed it" What do yous think ?

Talking about the "beautiful body type", back in the day, Elle McPherson, was given the label, " The Body", because her body apparently had the perfect proportions.

Thank you for the bit about height.

Been looking forward to this episode 👌

My gosh, so many words with so little clear understanding.

What I find attractive as a 36 yr old female: Height doesn’t get me, I’m 5ft 6. I’ll be with tall or short. I prefer a man clean. He can be hairy or not, I just prefer one who is manicured and clean. One who wears fresh clothes and their style matching mine. If they have a beard, they keep it clean. For body shape, one that likes to be outdoors. I’m not into chubby men, reason why is their future health. If they are a bicyclist or hiker is a massive plus. One who is a little tan but not dark or pale. A smile with clean teeth. They don’t need to be straight. Someone I can talk with, someone I can let my hair down and feel comfortable with. Someone who is patient and easy going. 😎 that’s my mix.

Chris I think you’re very attractive. I wonder how often you get compliments about your looks. Also, I agree with your guest that you ask great questions and have the ability to because of the knowledge you obtained, have wonderful conversation that are interesting to listen to.

I feel like MM is someone who has read all the right things but still just doesn't get it - Everything he says is like he is trying to avoid saying something that might be perceived as negative or "shaming" someone.. He just can't connect the dots..

Didn't know that Niko Hulkenberg is a specialist in evolutionary biology as well...

💯 Good looks and height matter to women. Gets you in the door instantly.

So love this guest!! Polite, aware and knowledgeable!! Ty

The guy literally didn’t say anything just babble for 2 hours

I think it’s also worth remembering - similar to women - men aren’t necessarily looking a certain way FOR women. As a guy who is always in the gym, we’re doing it for ourselves and even honestly for other guys and the bond - vs to get a woman.

very - VERY! - interesting! Good job!

So it's just a total quagmire where the only truly outcome determinative factor is the random confluence of pairable qualities, timing and circumstances between the parties. The fact humanity has survived is fantastic.

The most attractive eyes are much larger than normal, bigger pupil size of course and color doesn't really matter. Not to wide or narrow on the face as well.

Basically be the opposite of me. You are welcome

Honestly, I do believe it is a set of genes that is most attractive in a man. It is not so much his status being as high as possible. Rather the level of personality development. It should be corresponding.

Super interesting, thanks.

Rollo was right when he said he'll never run out of material to analyze. Sunday gonna be fun for sure.