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me to

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@@RamaKrishna-cw1vq Pada masa kerajaan majapahit, beras merupakan penentu perekonomian kerajaan. Beras tidak hanya digunakan untuk memenuhi kebutuhan masyarakat setempat, bahkan menjadi komoditas ekspor. Pada masa itu, beras juga digunakan untuk barter dengan rempah-rempah yang berada di maluku.

That’s just because money is not a medium of exchange anymore - the money there has lost all worth (because of inflation mind you). If a country used medal tokens for their money, that they could smelt down into gear and tools, and suddenly all of the medal tokens had rusted irreparably, the medal tokens would not be used anymore. Now the currency is useless. In the case before, the tokens themselves were the backing, being that you could smelt them down. But even if we go with a paper currency that has a backing, let’s say McChickens, the same could happen. If the quality of the McChickens suddenly dropped substantially, be it they changed the chicken supplier, stopped putting mayonnaise on the sandwich or changed the spices, the currency would be worth a lot less. Finally, let’s take a useless commodity that can be used for trading. Let’s say a country uses shoelaces as a commodity. If somebody started mass-producing shoelaces (as had happened in Venezuela) the value of the shoelaces would drop. Not because they’ve dropped in value; they never had any in the first place, but because they’re far more common. No I don’t count tying their shoes as value, frick feet. In all of these cases however, a stable currency can fix the problems. As shown in the video, gold makes a good backing for money.

💪🏾🔥

​@obviouslykaleb7998 but Gold is rare and we eventually run out, same with silver so then what can we do, which is why people print so much money.

Barter to barter is not gonna be effective in todays time.

@@jmgonzales7701 of course it can be affective

@@jmgonzales7701 that is why we must reject the times of today in order to be truly free from the debut slavery system at witch we are under...as moses said LET MY PEOPLE GO

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So our dollar is bad money cause it doesnt maintain its value over time...

Yeah, they could come up with this thing called credits. (money).

So internet is medium of exchange then?

How would it do that? For every purchase/exchange, the system (or you) would still have to create multiple exchanges to make it work, and it may not always be able to divide things perfectly. It would have to sometimes decide whether to create more exchanges for a closer match, or accept being less accurate on worth, which is not an objective, stable thing to begin with. It would have to decide whether to favor one party or the other when it isn't completely accurate, or have a way of remembering the leftovers - which would essentially just be credits (money), defeating the purpose to some degree. In the end, even if it somehow ended up with everything traded fairly, you'd still have multiple exchanges that could all go wrong, so more points of failure. What happens when one person partway into the chain of exchanges doesn't follow through? Maybe they dropped their item and broke it, or found it had gone stale, or it was lost in shipping, or were just plain scamming and never had what they listed? The entire chain is disrupted and there's a lot more headache trying to sort everything out, and meanwhile any perishable items are losing value, while people aren't getting what they wanted. The internet could make it less troublesome to find the trades you wanted, but it's never going to be more convenient than currency can be, as far as I can see. You would never have something like an online store, click a few times and it's on its way to your home. Also, obscure or niche or uncommonly traded items would be significantly more difficult to trade or trade for.

Aeroxima this is a great point I have been looking for someone who backs the benefits of money. Although central banking is corrupt. The currency idea is not bad itself as it brings efficiency to the marketplace. As well as a common ground item everyone wants to create a multitude of new industries. With an incentive system in place people are often more interested in competition. This shows in sports and many other incentive based systems. Constant trade would be full of clutter and make it hard for someone to organize a company for instance like Tesla. Great companies need great people. To get great people you need incentive.

Jim Just here to point out that money and central banking are not the same thing.

Me

Me

This is exactly what I thought school would be teaching! Unfortunately they want just their system and make sure you miss out on a system that can be very beneficial to learn when or if their system tanks. Try to be open minded and question why they just cut you off from thinking for yourselves

Me

I’m here for the exams

@Veiled Heat but we have the internet. Where literally everything is offered.

The issue here isn't that a barter economy cannot exist, it just happens to be extremely inefficient in the wider, much more informed, economy. I do agree that it can still being a thing if it happens in a much more localised and smaller context.

Thx :)

Than still there will be the problem of finding someone, that have what you want, and will accept what you have. Why complicate easy things?

It's unrealistic for a large economy. Plus people wouldn't want to go through the extra work of logging in all of their labor and needs and they may want to keep it private.

me too i need to barter pants and bags

@@EconClips how did people build and store wealth during the barter system? Now with money you can say someone has x amount of money or is worth a certain amount e.g. £1million in bank and ppl will think they can buy anything they want, but how did people do that during bartering cos it seems like they exchanged when they needed something etc ..

Barter has only pros at small scale, it is impracticable at anything larger than that. It's also impossible to build economy based on barter, because you can't really store it, and without that you have no capital creation, and without that, you don't have an economy.

He may not trade the shoes off for a year and he needs food and a new roof NOW.

@@jaysmith-sq4dy Which is why you wouldn't ONLY be a cobbler in a small village. That is an incredibly specific job. They would most likely be tanners, who produced a variety of leather products. Specified jobs only pop up when you get dense urban cities, where there are enough people to sustain that kind of lifestyle.

This is an unending problem, the sheer amount of things in diversity, quality and quantity would make it unsustainable even on the short term.

Yeah the bankers definitely putting out some propaganda on this one.

You assume perfect knowledge by the shoemaker over all the entire economy to know what is needed then the learning curve requires time & energy to learn to create those goods or services for someone who wants them right at that moment. If people were truly anarchist capitalists, then they would never FORCE new humans into existence against their will. But, as long as people continue to force new humans against their will into the world, then other people called Marxists & socialists & communists will and should force laws upon breeders to guarantee all nonbreeders are taken care of.

This inefficient. Specialisation is the source of economic development.

Do you really need evidence for THAT? How exactly would currency just spring up out of nowhere as the default system of trade for a developing civilization?

currency does not maintain its value, money does. That's the sole difference between money and currency. A Dollar bill is currency, but a gold Dollar coin is money.

Labor is useless if it doesn't create value

@GreenElement If labor dosen't create the commodoties that people value, then it's wasted.

Sounds like money

sure, but exchange rate under the gold standard is still a better protection against inflation than fiat money. It can be changed - of course, you can say that about everything. Constitution can be changed, system can be changed etc.

agree with everything except "it can be changed... everything", an ounce of gold is an ounce of gold, doubt that can be easily changed.

You are the best pirate I've ever seen.

Wouldn’t existing products stagnate and deteriorate in that fashion of commerce(even if some rightly so)? What would be the incentive to make anything other than what we require for our immediate survival/consumption that would still keep us with a modicum of civility instead of having to defend our possessions from perceived theft? It seems like what you are advocating would require an indoctrination process, which may only fractionally hit or miss, and result in a significant number of injuries/casualties.

Yeah, and that's why several socialist economists called for the abolition of money. Seems legit

I think it's not money in and of itself that's the issue, and I've played games where you had to barter instead and experienced exactly the issue mentioned. I'd spend weeks searching for a trade that really should be in the other party's favor. Many times, my item was supposedly worth a certain amount, and everyone collectively knew it, but it was just a nightmare to find anyone actually willing to make such a trade. It also came down to using some common item to substitute for currency, just like the salt and other examples did. I agree on the basic idea though. There's a problem in real life going on a lot, just like the game with bartering had. People end up having goods or services of value, but they're unable to make a trade because of the lack of money. You can have a whole group of people that collectively would like to make a bunch of trades, but because they're all poor, they just can't. It's like a town where some guy in a mansion has all of the money, and he could get whatever he wants, but the money always makes its way back to him and nobody else can trade amongst themselves. You could think "if only we made a new currency, like a sub-currency, so we could trade with each other fairly without having to get permission from the already established rich". Perhaps cryptocurrency. But then it just ends up inevitably being traded for the old money, there's an exchange rate established, and you're still effectively working in the same system except whoever got that initial crytocurrency made a few bucks and came out ahead. The problem was never solved. I'd love to hear ideas on how to solve that problem. How the people without money could make their trades with each other, without having to somehow get the guy in the mansion to stop hording all the money (because he never will, he has all the power and is quite pleased about it). Punishing him isn't the point, people getting on with their lives and being able to trade effectively is. And in my experience, bartering only led to the exact same kind of desperate feeling of having no money, even when you did have things of value.

How is a barter system supposed to work? Can you explain or link a video that explains?

True, but it's a valuable theoretical construct. We never said that it actually existed:)

Strawman. Once again: nobody here claims that barter existed, but it is a useful theoretical construct.

EconClips​ Its not even useful because allows serious mistakes like thinking that money, currency and the material we use to manufacture currency are all the same. Money is a mesure of debt. We have money-things like currency but 99% of the money is not currency.

betatalk357 Debt are savings. Money is debt, etc... The amount of money in s economy is the amount of debt/savings.

Suso Medin Money isn't debt, it's mostly based on debt but it's not debt. The loans and bonds are.

Theft and fraud is not a fault of money. That's absurd. This things aren't connected.

Money causes greed. Thats why capitalism has failed. The rich get rich and the poor stay poor. So capitalism only works for the rich.

Unless you can guarantee people will owe up to their deals, I suggest you are wrong.

You mean like the federal reserve

Me. Did you summarize the main points?

It is bag of wheat not weed you stupid head

Are we talking communism here or barter? Not the same thing.

they said they are Austrians lol

bruh moment