More Fairlane upgrades! Missfire & Braking issues resolved

Рет қаралды 97,091

3 жыл бұрын

Mark's Fairlane goes like a freight train but also stops like one so it's time to upgrade the front brakes and also resolve a misfire issue thats occurring at Higher RPM.
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Thanks to Duncan at Hopper Stoppers for supplying the Brake Upgrade kit, They have a huge range of kits available to suit maybe cars including Holden, Ford, Pontiac, Cadillac, Buick, Pontiac, Chrysler and many more, Get in contact with them here:
hoppers.com.au/hopstop/contact-us/
Our mates at Golebys supplied the GTR Coils and kit to suit the 1UZFE, PRP manufacture a range of Coil Kits to suit Most Performance engines, Along with Mechanical fuel pump & Trigger kits, Find more products here:
www.golebysparts.com.au/collections/platinum-racing-products
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Please note: We like to make interesting car mods and show you how we've gone about it, but we can't promise that anything we show you will work for your particular car, or that you won't harm yourself, someone else, your car or your warranty doing it. Please be safe, be responsible and unless you know what you're doing, do not fool around with very serious machinery just because you've seen us make it look so easy.

Пікірлер: 215

@theskidfactory 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks to Duncan at Hopper Stoppers for supplying the Brake Upgrade kit, They have a huge range of kits available to suit maybe cars including Holden, Ford, Pontiac, Cadillac, Buick, Pontiac, Chrysler and many more, Get in contact with them here: hoppers.com.au/hopstop/contact-us/ Our mates at Golebys supplied the GTR Coils and kit to suit the 1UZFE, PRP manufacture a range of Coil Kits to suit Most Performance engines, Along with Mechanical fuel pump & Trigger kits, Find more products here: www.golebysparts.com.au/collections/platinum-racing-products

@ashc5728 3 жыл бұрын

Recently bought a Hopper Stoppers Kit for an RA28 1UZ im buiilding for a mate, it looks like a good kit :)

@gregmyatt9932 3 жыл бұрын

Love the big Fairy, got a ZD, been looking for decent brake system for years without doing the RRS suspension setup, cheers guys and cheers Hopper stoppers. Bigger disc better mechanical advantage👍.

@raceadvantage 3 жыл бұрын

What about Pontiac? :)

@wobblysauce 3 жыл бұрын

Ya, the Wilwoods are tiny, good for putting around the pits but not the end of the strip.

@JesusisJesus 3 жыл бұрын

Mate, every time the cockys screech, freak out the yanks by saying “ Bloody Pterodactyls.” I swear it’s the funniest shit ever. I have pulled that on so many yanks that they want me to drive them back to the airport. 8:30 ish Flash a pelican skeleton for extra freaky ness. It is pterodactyl season, after all!

@Harold_That_Guy 3 жыл бұрын

The Marty impression has me rolling!🤣😂🤣😂

@Danger_mouse 3 жыл бұрын

14:50 I've been a mechanic for a long time too and we just had a piece of fuel hose in the tool box for twin cam plugs 🙂

@joshuaswart4917 3 жыл бұрын

Turbo Yoda is possibly the one you tube guys (apart from MCM and the nugget garage) that I can trust for the right info off the internet for mods, love your work Al and woody!!!!

@falconater68 3 жыл бұрын

Ya right. For JDM stuff maybe, even then I wouldn't trust MCM too far.

@jase666ify 3 жыл бұрын

Dont put mcm in that sentence they are just a couple clowns trying to act like they know when everything there saying theve been told by someone else, there not mechanics

@andersjjensen 3 жыл бұрын

@@jase666ify Honestly I don't think they pretend to be anything other than a couple of guys liking cars. They routinely get expert help on pretty much anything and they never hide it. Heck, they MADE Al and Benny by putting them in the proper light they deserve. I happen to like that approach, as way too many people getting into car modifications go "How hard can it be? I'll just get the info I need off forums or asking on facebook!" and then get exactly the result you'd expect from that.

@guyforlogos 3 жыл бұрын

I absolutely agree!

@jase666ify 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah appreciate that al and ben wouldnt have channels if it wasnt for them, i suppose there just hard to watch for a tradesman

@CarlosOcasio 3 жыл бұрын

Wait... No after credit shenanigans?

@chrisrosie0584 3 жыл бұрын

SpOiLeRs

@NeverLetOff 3 жыл бұрын

@@chrisrosie0584 sorry... Didn't think about that

@adamloader9534 3 жыл бұрын

Credit to Al, with a great explanation of the Braking issue and solution. Definitely needs better brakes then any Falcon will need with the Size and Mass of that car.

@feenyx6394 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for teaching me something about brakes that I've never really stopped to consider before. Another great example of why I love this channel!

@mark7457 3 жыл бұрын

Aww, no B roll after the credits? C'mon Woody!

@jzaska6734 3 жыл бұрын

Yeww! Absolutely love the skid factory. Live the way you guys explain stuff. It's one of my favorite shows to watch and gives me a lot of motivation to work on my cars. And how you go about things properly is nice, we all know the dodgy way to do stuff.

@dB_944 2 ай бұрын

I was watching BCW today (April 24, 2024) and he was just taking about those Wilwoods and the rust and dust on the side of the Cresta. He’s replacing them. 😊

@trevorhunter374 3 жыл бұрын

You have got to love Als words of wisdom Great show as usual. Improvise adapt and overcome

@paulEG6 3 жыл бұрын

The bolt bucket has saved my bacon several times in the past, although it’s more “half a dozen random bags/boxes” of bolts in my case😂

@mpsuckling 3 жыл бұрын

The imperial bolt bucket that is labelled "washers" ... the only way to classify non metric parts :P

@quadmasta 3 жыл бұрын

my uncle calls it the BABA - Big Ass Bolt Assortment

@StreetDreamzTT 3 жыл бұрын

Nice seeing this old thing again! Thanks for the episode guys! Herman is a boss at his stuff.

@mitchellcrowe8545 3 жыл бұрын

Man you guys have made my day. New MCM, BCW, and the Skid Factory back to back. 😀👍 love your work skid factory, ya never fail to please!!

@Jake_Hamlin 3 жыл бұрын

And BCW will drop another video once his 99.8k subs hits 100k

@mitchellcrowe8545 3 жыл бұрын

@@Jake_Hamlin👍 shoot yeah I cant wait!!

@ryubiggie 3 жыл бұрын

Also cleetus and boosted boiz. This has been a fantastic day for car youtube

@CarlosOcasio 3 жыл бұрын

One of the best muscle car restomod ever

@negativeindustrial 3 жыл бұрын

I’m always down for a turbocharged Toyota engine in everything but this car has a serious build to it. No wonder as it makes more than twice the HP as the 1UZ-FE in my daily driver.

@randombravo 3 жыл бұрын

You said it mate. Underestimated too how much an upgrade it truly is 👌👌

@dangitbobby7887 3 жыл бұрын

I've been using an piece of scrap hose to screw in spark plugs for years ever since I figured it out, it's my favorite method.

@negativeindustrial 3 жыл бұрын

I’ve always just used the long ratchet extension without the ratchet. Works efficiently as I run it down with the extension by hand, click on the ratchet and give it a half a turn and call it done when I feel the washer flatten. 3S-GTE and 2JZ-GTE engines have considerable depth to deal with so you need the extension anyway.

@wobblysauce 3 жыл бұрын

@@negativeindustrial It is more about that pesky rear one... unless you the extensions and swivels just right.

@Jonathan_Doe_ 3 жыл бұрын

I’ve got a spark plug socket that has a rubber bit inside that clicks onto the plug like a ht lead, worth every penny! You get a slightly better feel for when it’s dropped into the thread properly (always go lefty loosey a little bit with nuts or bolts until you feel it drop into the thread kids, then righty tighty!) with it than with the hose method.

@negativeindustrial 3 жыл бұрын

@@wobblysauce Makes sense. I had that issue on my 1UZ-FE V8 but not on either of my turbo engines.

@negativeindustrial 3 жыл бұрын

@@SHOCKcustoms Same with me, exactly 30 years experience with over a dozen Celica, Supra, MR2 and LS400s.

@Mr16bit 3 жыл бұрын

Dyna lites are a common cheap upgrade for mx5s. I can imagine they would struggle with a car as heavy and as much straight line speed as the Fairlane.

@neilf740 3 жыл бұрын

I've been designing and building brake kits for years and I've used Dynalites on light cars with great results, totally wrong for a higher powered heavier car though. Not the worst sin as I've seen kits with fully threaded 8.8 grade cap heads holding discs to bells and all other manners of faux pas. As with anything the right parts for the right application is they key and that often (pretty much always) takes a bit of knowledge, research and calculation. This is the first time I've ever watched The Skid Factory and thought 'That's a bit unfair' as I think the parts should never have been on that car or specced for it in the first place, but, in fairness, I think Al does then try to get that across slightly later.

@TeamGambleBMX 3 жыл бұрын

I'm always hanging out for my Wednesday Skid Factory and Benny's fix. Never disappoints! Cheers guys

@j1m3by 3 жыл бұрын

Nice upgrade. I put one of those Dynalite brake kits on a street/track Camaro and learned to hate 'em. I wouldn't recommend them for anything other than a trailer queen drag car with parachute.

@fendel_ 3 жыл бұрын

That Fairlane is so good! That coil kit was great!

@fluffpuckot 3 жыл бұрын

Good stuff, as usual! I had an almost-accident with my wrx -05 on a track day: going full throttle in 3rd gear downhill, 5krpm+ coming up a chicane. when I stepped on the brakes, nothing and mean NOTHING happend, pedal was firm as could be, but no reduction in speed for 1 second. I managed to not go off the track, but it was scary, so I decided to upgrade my braking system. I got some DBA discs and PFC pads as well as high-temp rated brake fluid. I never considered that the calipers themselfs might flex ( still using original wrx 2-piston calipers ). Haven't been to trackday since, only an autocross event, but brakes seems good now. Now I have almost the opposite problem; I need to get some heat into the pads and discs for the breaks to work good...

@gordonhenagar6652 3 жыл бұрын

Great explanation of the brakes Al.

@StratoJohn 3 жыл бұрын

Brakes are looking lovely

@stevemcrichards8768 3 жыл бұрын

THere's so many different braking setup variations depending on application. I imagine the Wilwoods wore out there welcome on the Fairlane because it's a big, heavy car with a lot of power and those design calipers and friction material aren't enough for that application obviously.

@davidsharp9166 3 жыл бұрын

Excellent contents and no mid roll adds. Yippee

@brettwatson-will3388 3 жыл бұрын

Happy Birthday Woody... Have a great day.

@albertdaveys 3 жыл бұрын

Happy Birthday Woody.....

@pablorages1241 3 жыл бұрын

Nice looking calipers !

@aussiebloke609 3 жыл бұрын

That's interesting about the Willwood caliper's stiffness. I recall another yt channel having a similar problem in a high speed braking zone, saying it felt like stupid amounts of brake fade without actually getting the brakes all that hot - I can't find the video at the moment, but I _think_ it was on Speed Academy - probably from 2 or 3 years back now. Anyway, the consensus in the end was the generic-model Willwood caliper flexing too much under heavy loads and limiting max brake effort. I've wondered if that little issue was ever fixed - but evidently not. :-P I'm sure they're a decent brake conversion for your regular restomod or street machine (and certainly better than the 4 wheel drums so many of them came with from the factory), but likely not up to snuff if you're looking to do track days or more.

@guyforlogos 3 жыл бұрын

Not sure, but I’m guessing those willwoods were meant for drag racing only, small, light, meant for one good stop at a time. Size is the issue, heavy car small caliper, not good. You guys down under have those awesome venues where you go on the road race tracks with your street cars, you need very good brakes for that. That venue doesn’t seem to be as big a thing here, there is more separation between road racers and drag racers here in America. Most aftermarket equipment is advertised differently between the two as well.

@David-xl8zf 3 жыл бұрын

Well a 60s Mustang isn't a Fairlane, is it? Especially in weight.

@Jimmyk63 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your insight and video 🙂👍🎄

@studog7851 3 жыл бұрын

Good to see your using Australian made brakes guys. Thumbs up.

@sgan937 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the episodes guys.. and not making them 10 min

@AFFMotorsport 3 жыл бұрын

Denso plugs are great, been using them since the 80's, never had an issue, Hit up Toyota parts for them as they are the importers of them. Strangley my old 400whp WRX and my Rav4 run the exact same plug, just different gaps

@TheRealMrCods 3 жыл бұрын

Love the Fairlane 👌

@Mayhemspent 3 жыл бұрын

Oi wheres the outtakes at the end Woody?? Jibbed.

@nukedathlonman 3 жыл бұрын

Fairlane again - always a welcome sight. :-)

@shaneanning180sx 3 жыл бұрын

love those coils im using lancer 4b11 coils in my civic on 30psi im down to .4 spark plug gap now

@Yvolve 3 жыл бұрын

That moment you finally sit down, turn on KZfaq and there's a new Skid Factory, Mighty Cars Mods and Hoonigan Donk episode. Absolute bliss! The Unholy Trinity of Lemon Squashed Carcaine.

@StratoJohn 3 жыл бұрын

Hit up nugget garage and Benny's Custom Works too 👍🏻

@MrThatnativeguy 3 жыл бұрын

What happened to the quick tech videos , I was very pleased watching those

@A_lesson_in_Hate 3 жыл бұрын

I've always had a spark plug socket with a magnetic ring in it ,never had a problem and needed a bit of hose

@kimmyrask7368 3 жыл бұрын

I love the kookaburras in the background🤘🏻

@jorgeconcepcion934 3 жыл бұрын

Saludos desde Puerto Rico ,muy buen episodio interesante contenido que Dios los bendiga.

@pashakdescilly7517 3 жыл бұрын

20:20 "I think we are ready to go" Er, Al, you might not have noticed, the car could do with a wheel

@ravennexusmh 3 жыл бұрын

Pad area is something many people forget. Years back using Volvo 240n4 piston calipers was a thing on classics. But the pad is tiny so braking was other worse

@yanuardhana6457 3 жыл бұрын

Wise choice for brake, racing aplication not same as street, it's educational and simple to understand 😘

@rosscullen406 3 жыл бұрын

Wearing out my skidfactory 1UZ shirt here in Florida

@TobyWhiteUK 3 жыл бұрын

I started putting in spark plugs using spare hose and it works fine

@unclebob5686 3 жыл бұрын

I use a piece of tube off of a Hiace air con drain tube to put my spark plugs in. Been using that for 24 years.

@rjl110919581 3 жыл бұрын

thank you other great detail video

@ralfhedstrom 3 жыл бұрын

So, the first 8 minutes was spent on saying that if You don't have enough "stiff" in your bone, it doesn't matter how large your diameter is, it will not save your life? Got it! ;)

@eformance 3 жыл бұрын

I just used a piece of fuel or transmission line for screwing in plugs.

@gordowg1wg145 3 жыл бұрын

Cool upgrades - as you pointed out, you need to use the brake package that suits the vehicle AND what it's being used for. With smaller diameter and/or lower piston numbers, more line pressure is required which makes the problem of undersize calipers even worse. Symptoms are a spongy pedal, having to use more pedal force, excess disc wear to the outside with possible cracking, and pads that wear more tot he outer edge. Using power brakes to try and cure it will usually just make things worse, but sometimes one can use a higher co-efficient of friction pad material to increase the braking and/or reduce line pressure and hence flex. At 0:27 there's a fair bit of freeplay in the throttle cable, was it still getting full throttle? Re: the spark plug holder, been using a length or rubber hose for years - is that actually better as main advantage seems to be the grips at the ends?

@deveous_dave 3 жыл бұрын

TCI do a shifter called a fast gate and it for RHD, works well on Toyota autos. I put one in my Soarer years ago.

@The_Impulse 3 жыл бұрын

That wilwood rotor was roached, that is 1/2 the problem. Looks like it was mostly down to an application issue, not enough brake for weight and usage. The new setup certainly looks beefy and I hope it works even better!

@SHOCKcustoms 3 жыл бұрын

Awesome vid Alan & woody. Love it. Did you fellas consider baer brakes? 6 piston. Bolt ons. 380mm rotors. Had duncan at hoppers fit the baer kit to my #barralincoln. Works insanely well. 320mm rears and 4 piston.

@theskidfactory 3 жыл бұрын

We visited Baer's manufacturing facility in Phoenix last year, they make some great products including some big billet callipers similar to Hoppers.

@paulthompson1654 Жыл бұрын

Wilwood as you have been using use smaller area pads which run hotter but give a short life and very expensive replacement parts . Even thou the rotors are big diameter the thickness is pathetic which means it has no heat storage capacity . . There are 25mm discs but u need to ring Wilwood . Wilwood donot do many caliper piston sizes Hoppers 4 pot are exact copy to Power Stop Calipers . Pwr stop do about 200 different calipers . Some have boots , all different staggered pistons size option as well . Pads are common and u can use Hawk brand which has a big selection. Pads are triple the price in ozzy

@Swazy72 3 жыл бұрын

Where can I get one of those denso spark plug tools? Ive tried looking but not found anything. Looks like it makes life alot easier.

@shaunstst 3 жыл бұрын

Awesome video blokes. I have a question for ya. What is your honest opinion on toolpro cordless tools 18v ect..? I have discovered my workshop has been broken into and all my dewalt tools have been stolen. I had built up the tools over many years. Now I think maybe a cheaper alternative would do the job. But its gotta last. Thanks boys

@smact1 3 жыл бұрын

I got a adapter which I think was 1/4 to 5/16 to use roloc buff pads on a toolpro buff gun.

@bigkeg9173 3 жыл бұрын

1UZ THE WORLD 😎

@DaveHiggoHiggins 3 жыл бұрын

new t-shirt idea? BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHT-ZUUUUUU BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHT-ZUUUUUU

@thephranc 3 жыл бұрын

I think most people forget the Wilwoods are for drag cars stopping after the 1/4 not for street use. Wilwood does offer more robust systems but few are willing to pay the price so go for the cheaper lighter duty stuff.

@theskidfactory 3 жыл бұрын

These particular brakes are 100% marketed as street car brakes.

@thephranc 3 жыл бұрын

@@theskidfactory thats horribly unfortunate

@Nefarious86 3 жыл бұрын

Don't throw bolts away kids.

@ibgorton 3 жыл бұрын

"Pitch the tent" inside the car

@robseg 3 жыл бұрын

Seems like its a light duty racing caliper being used for daily driving use.

@Doc_in_the_carpet_truck 3 жыл бұрын

Ha Hopper Stoppers deliver next door to them twice a week they have a Pokestop out the front too 🤣🤣🤣 Cunny Funt !!!

@dangdang3970 3 жыл бұрын

Watched it on full screen this time boys so i dont comment before i see shit again ha ha, thanks for the info too boys keep it up

@mattykanal 3 жыл бұрын

I will take 8 elephant trunks please. Do make sure they're pre-sprung.

@shoominati23 3 жыл бұрын

Those Wilwoods are for a Drag Car that might do 200mph but only needs to stop from it once with a half hour cool down between extra use. So the calipers are more than big enough for the job, but the rotors are much thinner to save weight.. Maybe they thought the car was only for drag racing, and was going to be trailered, did you tell them that?

@theskidfactory 3 жыл бұрын

That is not what the Wilwood marketing department say.

@Retro_Rich 3 жыл бұрын

Ain’t no substitute for a big radius of gyration for The Skid Factory nation.

@davidsawyer1599 3 жыл бұрын

The original upgraded brakes were incorrect for the application. Those brakes are for much lighter vehicles. @ 16:06 those hex keys are nice to help get a bolt going. Under higher torque though they round out the fasteners. Less surface area.

@TheNyanCatReborn 3 жыл бұрын

The wilwoods they had are a kit that wildwood make for that car, how are they incorrect? And the fairlane isn't exactly a heavy car

@6900mx 3 жыл бұрын

Hi Al, was wondering if there's a bigger turbo available to fit my 2.2 Captiva diesel. I have added new chipping with kws going from 135ks to approx 178ks ?

@paulthompson1654 Жыл бұрын

hi a piston area of 3150sqmm is great or better . eg HQ front single 63mm piston . Wilwood struggle and cannot get close . Factory similar full sized cars run twin 48---52mm slide caliper on a 300--305mm disc . 3600sqmm ---4250sqmm . 68--82 Corvette C3 are also huge bigger again on a 300mm disc

@trevorsmith9251 3 жыл бұрын

Have you ever used TBS calipers or rotors manufactured in Capalaba? 4 and 6 pistons for small diameter wheel clearance

@theskidfactory 3 жыл бұрын

No I haven't heard of them.

@jeremyeverest9987 3 жыл бұрын

I see by not refuting the rims you found out the wheels are now around 4mm to 5mm spaced out and the gard need to be rolled at the bottom front .

@floydthedroid5935 3 жыл бұрын

Something overlooked by most of our generation, let alone the new kids coming through. The first and biggest gain on the track is braking. Improve your braking system to go faster, it seems counter intuitive. Next is tyres & weight. Then onto suspension tuning and finally power. Seems to be backwards these days. Edits.Herman is the man.

@campbelljenkins2380 3 жыл бұрын

You need to add mean radius to the conversation when talking brakes and clutches. Rigidity of the caliper is based on how big of the arc it covers.

@jimmac1953 3 жыл бұрын

I'd look through all comments but that Wilwood set is a pure race setup. I won't use it on the street.

@tony66au 3 жыл бұрын

Awww STOOGED! Wheres the after show clip? Cmon man! :-P

@godparticle314 3 жыл бұрын

You didn't have to upgrade the master cylinder to for the bigger calipers?

@lmo2021 3 жыл бұрын

When fitting R35 coils don't you also need to set dwell times and the likes?

@911marcus 3 жыл бұрын

is the a Partnumber for the Sparkplug Tool?

@MR66HD 3 жыл бұрын

A lot of engineers won’t pass wilwood brakes here in Aussie either

@theskidfactory 3 жыл бұрын

That is true.

@jongant 3 жыл бұрын

Is there a proper hub conversion design available (rather than an old-school hub-with-disc design)? Wilwood unfortunately not that great for street cars....despite my UK bias. Used to be the go-to for old Toyota stuff, but never convinced.

@negativeindustrial 3 жыл бұрын

I’ve always just used the long ratchet extension without the ratchet. Works efficiently as I run it down with the extension by hand, click on the ratchet and give it a half a turn and call it done when I feel the washer flatten. 3S-GTE and 2JZ-GTE engines have a considerable depth to deal with so you need the extension anyway. Edit: Man, who’s the hot girl modeling the Skid Factory merchandise? Wow.

@glennman5619 3 жыл бұрын

👍🏼

@benheaver4332 3 жыл бұрын

👍

@shooter77us 3 жыл бұрын

That idle is just nasty.

@TheCuttz1984 3 жыл бұрын

Mate. I need to replace my 1uz coils for the gtr ones those boots are golden. Ill be hunting for them now cheers

@theskidfactory 3 жыл бұрын

Golebys Parts.

@Pengajim 3 жыл бұрын

is Gobies (sorry dont know how to spell it), the Australian equivalent of Summit or Jegs?

@rxcosmo76 3 жыл бұрын

A decent brake upgrade without having to run massive wheels. That's a good thing, i hate to see old cars with stupidly big diameter wheels. Not a big fan of the Roller Skate look.

@trevorblack2288 3 жыл бұрын

Only because it was your Birthday Woody, will I forgive the lack of after credit nonsense..... Shot boys

@Matti_H_ 3 жыл бұрын

What ! No outro ??

@akai69cam 3 жыл бұрын

Hoppers still don't make a kit for e series falcons.

@madrew2003 3 жыл бұрын

Bigger rotors are more about the mass of the rotor and thus it's ability to absorb heat. I think that is a bigger factor than the diameter myself.

@theskidfactory 3 жыл бұрын

So you could make a rotor that is 250mm and 40mm thick and it would have equal braking to a 300mm 15mm thick rotor?

@madrew2003 3 жыл бұрын

@@theskidfactory by calculating the mass difference the smaller but thicker rotor has 1.85 times the mass. Pretty much any performance brake can lock a wheel. It's in how it handles heat buildup and rejects it that separates the pack. Look at Nascar where they have super heavy cars with small diameter brakes to fit the ancient steel wheels they use. Massively thick rotors though. The torque lever for gong from 12 inch to 13 inch rotors only gains you 8% more lever arm but gains you about 10% more heat sink mass for same thickness. Given a chance I'd go for thickness over diameter every time. My '69 Camaro has the Willwood HD kit that looked similar to what you took off the Fairlane at 11.5 inch diameter but I think my rotors are thicker. It handles the 113 mph qtr mile trap speed just fine to hit first turnoff. I suspect you just had a too thin rotor design. Vent design in the casting makes a huge difference too. Curved vanes far more effective than straight.