My Problem With Arch Linux Packaging

Рет қаралды 29,149

6 ай бұрын

I love Arch Linux but recently, more like for the past couple of months the Hyprland package has been incredibly out of date with no resolution in site but this was never a problem back when the dev made the package in the AUR so maybe there's a better way to handle out of date packages.
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==========Resources==========
Hyprland Package: archlinux.org/packages/extra/...
0.30.0 Commit: gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinu...
Package MR: gitlab.archlinux.org/archlinu...
AUR Hyprland: aur.archlinux.org/packages/hy...
Hyprland Installation: wiki.hyprland.org/Getting-Sta...
AUR Submission Guidelines: wiki.archlinux.org/title/AUR_...
Hyprland Nvidia: aur.archlinux.org/packages/hy...
2008 Post: bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.p...
2021 Post: bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.p...
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Пікірлер: 297

@vaxryy 6 ай бұрын

Hm, maybe I should distribute Hyprland solely as an Official™ Snap™ Just kidding. But yeah, arch's update took a while and it was annoying to me too, I'd get a LOT of bug reports for 0.30.0 and I'd have to tell people to update because the bug has been long fixed.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

Originally this was going be a video asking Arch to drop the package

@GSBarlev 6 ай бұрын

FYI, the Nix package has been working great for me on the Steam Deck. Thanks for providing that option-controller layout + Steam Input = a glorious Hyprland experience

@aziz9488 6 ай бұрын

maybe don't create bugs in the first place ?

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

@@aziz9488 just don't write code

@aziz9488 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson yes happier life

@Linuxdirk 6 ай бұрын

This unfortunately is not Hyprland-specific. The Arch packages repository currently has 971 packages flagged out of date. Some of them last updated 2+ years ago!

@pabloqp7929 6 ай бұрын

Not all packages can be maintained. If they aren't actually broken, should they be removed if no one steps up to patch?

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

Hyprland was just a recent example of a common problem, I'm just trying to spitball ideas about a solution but I'm honestly not sure where if anywhere would be realistically viable

@Linuxdirk 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson I’d go a rather radical way: If a package is outdated for 2 months or more without feedback from the maintainer, move it to the AUR. If the package was not taken over by someone else in the meantime, the original maintainer can take ownership and request moving it back to the repositories. This keeps current users “save” as packages moved to the AUR simply do not update anymore, so no “malicious takeover” of already installed software can happen automatically. It also makes clear for new users that the package is not considered as “provided by Arch” anymore. In my opinion 2 months is long enough for a maintainer to drop a quick note even if they’re involved in something unrelated to their maintenance activities. I don’t know how it is for the repos, but maintainers of AUR packages get one single notification if a package was flagged out-of-date. This should be changed so maintainers get a mail every week for a months, and then get daily mails.

@junebryant-ki1ir 6 ай бұрын

@@pabloqp7929there should be a warning saying it has not been updated in x days

@GrantZaitchick 6 ай бұрын

I don't want to make light of the fact that the people on the Arch team are for the most part maintaining Arch and its packages because they care about the rolling release as a whole. However, having a paid team with salaries would ensure that it becomes something of a responsibility rather than a suggestion to keep things maintained. I'm not sure how to solve any of this though, as you don't want the red tape, slow downs, and forced priorities that come with a corporate structure. I feel like the best thing for us to do is ensure that we back the developers, such as how Glorious Eggroll has a Patreon for his proton release, and aside from that, back the non profit such as "Software in the Public Interest, Inc." which is the non-profit that handles private donations for Arch Linux. Don't get me wrong, I realize that not everyone has money to put towards a "free to use" system, but I hope that might entice the younger enthusiasts to find ways to invest their time to benefit their favorite projects (if they can).@@BrodieRobertson

@MiukuMac 6 ай бұрын

Luckily we have 5000 distributions and 10 different packaging methods. What we really need is even more.

@stage6fan475 6 ай бұрын

😂😂😂😂😂Linux summarized!

@TheKevinGDX 6 ай бұрын

XDDDD

@Tynach 6 ай бұрын

Nah, nah.. You're not thinking like a True Visionary Leader™®. What we need is a new package manager that has integrated AI capabilities. It analyzes the package formats, analyzes the state of your filesystem and the existing software installed on the system, and makes 'informed' decisions about where to put the files in the package, and what to do about merging conflicting configuration files, etc. In short, every single thing about the state of all software on your system should be shipped off to GPT-4 for analysis, obviously! It's just the most obvious way to solve All Problems Forever! Alternatively, make it so that basic package management requires two 4090s, but since -that won't make as much money- -we won't be able to sell the data to advertisers- that's too expensive for poor Linux users who can't even afford Windows licenses, we'll highly discourage it and make it so that it only works with custom kernel packages that users would have to build themselves, without any documentation for how to do that.

@terrydaktyllus1320 6 ай бұрын

No, it needs people like you to put in time and effort doing research to work out what distro is best for you. Nobody's going to deliver you your perfect Linux "on a silver platter" to you, you have to put in some hard work. The alternative is just to let Microsoft or Apple run your computer for you. Choice is never a bad thing - unless you're too damn bone idle and lazy to put in effort to make that choice.

@sprinklednights 6 ай бұрын

That's so sad to be honest like imagine all package maintainers from different Linux distributions would come together to create only one package manager. I feel like the whole outdated packaging problem would be less of a problem if it had been like that

@bjbboy71697 6 ай бұрын

i like the way Gentoo does it. You can add "overlay" repos from external sources (guru being the officially sanctioned aur equivalent essentially), but they are masked by default. So, a overlay package will not override an official one unless you specifically unmask the package. Keeps everything clean, but you can explicitly do whatever the heck you want if that's what you want.

@fcolecumberri 6 ай бұрын

Not all overlays mask everything by default (I don't remember whichones don't, but I remember seing them). However I also think that the way Gentoo manage packages is the best.

@GSBarlev 6 ай бұрын

I have no problem with how Arch does this-if one package exists in multiple repos, it just prompts you to ask which one you want installed.

@brianhsu8333 6 ай бұрын

I’ve using Gentoo for many years, and heavily use portage overlay. I believe the default actually works like the following: if you don’t mask the portage overly manually, it will pick the latest unmasked (for example, no missing KEYWORD) version of the package you want to emerge, no matter in what portage overlay or in the office portage. If you don’t want these, you could mask the whole portage overlay and only unmask the specific package of that overlay. This is what I do now. And indeed, it's very convenient. I don't remember how many times I want to try a latest version of a program not updated yet in the official portage. What I do is simply copy the old version .ebuild file into my own overlay, and change the filename to the newer version, 'ebuild digest` it to see if I could fetch the source code tarball. And Volia, I have the latest version of that package. As long as the dependency of that package have no big change, most time it just works.

@terrydaktyllus1320 6 ай бұрын

Agreed - and it's one of the main reasons I've stuck with Gentoo for 20 years now at the expense of just about every other Linux distro.

@laughingvampire7555 6 ай бұрын

Gentoo packaging is a mess.

@leopard3131 6 ай бұрын

This sort of thing happens in every distro when there are insufficient package maintainers official or user repo. Arch is not as bad as the ppa or copr. Generally I go to upstream in these cases but for large or complex projects it is not always so easy either. Moving repos is painful now you have to add and maintain a whole new repo and migrating packages between reps is a pain for the reasons you stated. I suggest you become an arch maintainer.

@dashcharger24 6 ай бұрын

It's not that easy to become an Arch package maintainer. Years ago, I submitted a request to help maintain packages, as I did have a few popular ones in AUR, but they basically said no. They also don't offer any build system, at least back at the time. Meaning you would basically build the package yourself for general, and push your changes to the repo. Compared to other distros actually having a build environment, multi version control, etc. Arch is a bit of a mess.

@leopard3131 6 ай бұрын

@francoism6945 I understand but again it is not so easy with any distro. I have packaged for several distros and unless you are favored bu the current maintainers it is difficult to have packages or patches accepted. In fact it is easier to start your own thus all the duplicates in ppa copr etc.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

Yeah I'm certainly not blaming the maintainers for this problem, there has to be a better way to leverage the community support behind things like the AUR

@SeresHotes25 6 ай бұрын

The core problem is that we have so many package managers, so many packages, so many repos, but so little maintainers

@absalomdraconis 6 ай бұрын

At this point, I'd say a "meta package specification" that formats info about packaging options is needed, just so that packagers can use it to automate their work without project maintainers needing to support package style _blah._ Probably impossible to do a good job though.

@spicynoodle7419 2 ай бұрын

No, we don't have too many package managers or repos or distros. Why did you buy a car when someone else has already bought one and drives it everywhere? Why do we have to go to school for years and don't get spawned with all the knowledge and personality? Why are there so many countries, races, languages and currencies?

@SeresHotes25 2 ай бұрын

@@spicynoodle7419 I see what you mean, even though your comparison are a little hard to follow. You're saying that we want to have a lot of variety and choices in our packages and distros. And I fully agree with you! And I didn't give a solution "We need 1 distro, and only 1 program per task!" as some kind of dictator. If you want my opinion, it'd be cool if we had some kind of standardization in package managers. I'm not a maintainer, so I don't know problems and best solutions here. But maybe a universal package manager? Or a universal package format? We could have a server that stores every package of every version of every program with some kind of dependency resolving program. In that case distro maintainers just pick the default programs and configs for their distros and do almost no work in my ideal dreams.

@GaryGreene1977 6 ай бұрын

As someone that has in the past worked on the RPM5 project, I'd recommend moving this to a metadata flag set. All package information is stored server side, so when the metadata is regenerated server side, it could include an "upstream version" tag in the data set. Yes, this does require changes to pacman, and would require some mechanism put in place to probe for new releases from upstream (using a feed from freecode, mayby???), but I think this is more doable, and far less disruptive than moving things between repos

@Spencer-wc6ew 6 ай бұрын

I always saw the core idea to FOSS was that just anyone can be like "I'll fix this myself". But that AUR rule basically forbids that from happening in these cases.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

You can make a 3rd party repo but you cannot use the Arch infrastructure outside of submitting an MR

@LeonWhite 6 ай бұрын

I have been packaging for Alpine lately and it is really easy to get new packages added to `testing`. But the fact is that actually maintaining the packages and keeping them building as new versions come out is incredibly hard, time consuming work (particularly with musl libc). There needs to be better funding for professional maintainers.

@darkmtbg 6 ай бұрын

The biggest flaw i had with arch was FFMPG not being updated on the official packages, to the lastest version while the AUR version of a package was expecting the newest version was there.that opened up the door for flatpak on my system to get that packages to ensure stability for that program.

@az9az9az9 6 ай бұрын

There is nothing wrong with Flatpack and Snaps or zipped portable apps. Often they are compiled with more supported formats.

@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 6 ай бұрын

*laughs in Debian*

@Timbalo0 6 ай бұрын

😆

@MaartenT 6 ай бұрын

I like Debian as well and use it for servers, but I just got this email today: Due to an issue in the ext4 file system with data corruption in kernel 6.1.64-1, we are pausing the planned Debian 12.3 point release images for today while we attend to fixes. Please do not upgrade any systems at this time, we urge caution for users with UnattendeUpgrades configured. For more information please refer to Debian bug report #1057843 If you update now (until they fix it), it tries to push that bad kernel onto the system, so I wouldn't call it perfect either. That kernel has been updated on arch for a while now as well (I don't use the LTS kernel on arch though).

@IceAce1 6 ай бұрын

There is an extra-testing repo. The problem always was, there was not enough test feedback, so most responsibility remains with the maintainers, and that takes too much time. One general problem is that you can't use extra-testing for the one/two packages you are keen (and experienced) on, but the whole bunch. Hence, the way to use a corresponding -git package for those two is the right approach imo. It's you as the user who has to commit to it. And git-tags are widely used by the maintainers. They choose what approach fits them best per package. Whatever they choose to keep the package rolling close to stable releases is right.

@TheB3n0 6 ай бұрын

I love how you described DWL. I tried it and came to realization that I don't hate myself enough to use it

@craigw4644 6 ай бұрын

Switched from KWin X11 to Wayland and Hyprland 3-weeks ago: Loving it.

@Beryesa. 6 ай бұрын

This makes me think of the new-ish flatpak warning for out of date apps. Maybe a big number of alerts pinging other maintainers would be a demand mechanism and someone can claim it temporarily (like the how translations work) and reviewing MRs for popular packages would be much faster?

@simian3455 6 ай бұрын

💡A package manager that leverages "tags" and automatic tagging to simplify package maintenance and discovery. tags are extremely flexible and easy to change and could really help with his problem, this concept is not radical it's well tested and has actually helped extremely large projects. git uses a tags so why cant the package manager.

@satnififu 6 ай бұрын

This is why I eventually ditched Arch for Tumbleweed. Corporate distros may not be at their popularity peak as of late, but having people whose JOB is to maintain your distro's packages definitely does something for update consistency

@owlmostdead9492 6 ай бұрын

Gecko gang

@drishalballaney6590 6 ай бұрын

I also really wanted to go tumbleweed at some point but the mirrors are slow and it does not support parallel downloads :(

@Time4Technology 5 ай бұрын

@@drishalballaney6590Hi, since some time updates are available on a CDN. Would be great if you'd give it another go!

@massimilianotubani1471 5 ай бұрын

@@drishalballaney6590 I've been using Tumbleweed in the past and now I'm on Arch: I wouldn't switch back

@russjr08 6 ай бұрын

This is one of the reasons I've gotten used to install the mainline arch repo packages via the AUR helper that I use, yay. It'll show if a package is flagged as out of date, along when the package was flagged.

@paulgupta2454 6 ай бұрын

Archive is a horrible word for it. Stale is better. Archive means that it's not going to get more updates. At least in terms of GitHub, which is a big definer for software lingo

@Beryesa. 6 ай бұрын

Wayfire was adopted by raspberry pi and I think it'll grow as a floating/stacking compositor (how many have we got there, labwc, this... and?) I think we should make more stacking compositors :P

@vaxryy 6 ай бұрын

hyprland with windowrulev2 = float, class:.* best stacking compositor ever

@Beryesa. 6 ай бұрын

@@vaxryyCan I PR a --my-next-window-wont-tile launch argument kekw

@Lampe2020 6 ай бұрын

The only program I don't use from any [deb] repo is firefox (because I want to use Developer Edition and because I literally _cannot_ play videos for more than three seconds on the Canonical-compiled one).

@CrazyLuke11 6 ай бұрын

Hey. Love your content. I have one question: what wm do you use?

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

Currently Awesomewm sometimes Hyprland

@orbatos 6 ай бұрын

This is an illustration of how repo maintenance starts with the developer regardless of which repo it is. If you want to use Flatpak, deb, etc. or whatever primarily fine but generally packaging for all syarems can been done with only a little homework, then automated. This is important because it allows repo maintainers to manage the rest of the logistics without also having to worry about whether a dev has stopped updating.

@zeckma 6 ай бұрын

I dunno how to go about applying to be on the Arch team. I don't even use it anymore. But, I guess another good way to take care of this problem is by getting a person or multiple people on the team whose sole job is to look after FOOD (flagged out-of-date) packages to bring them back up to date. I think it'd be fun for me to do as a sort of part-time thing as I do like manually compiling things. I also wanna fix the OBS Chromium issue myself. Again, not sure how I would go about applying, if I could, and honestly I dunno if I even wanna do it.

@5ebastiancarlo5 6 ай бұрын

sway for pros, hyprland for bros

@5ebastiancarlo5 6 ай бұрын

By the way, the Arch package for bash (!) was in 5.1 for almost a year after 5.2 was released.

@fish3977 6 ай бұрын

Cutting edge!

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

I don't believe Arch has ever described itself as such that's been a community description

@bluephreakr 6 ай бұрын

A new repo would be the best thing for orphaned packages, honestly. If something there isn't being removed but it's out of date, then some backend adjustment could be made where the repositories are all given a list of packages _to be archived_ which could then expand into general operations for mirror maintainers, so when the mirrors are updated, the new repo is made, select packages are put into it, and sybchronised mirror updating can occur as-needed in future. A synchronised mirror update would mean that mirrors would be given a window of time to stage a request for update, so that all mirrors receive commands to perform, then after a deadline to accept, have the capability for late mirrors to receive these changes, but all mirrors within the time window to sync at-once will have automated backend tasks occur in unison.

@wannafedor4 6 ай бұрын

Brodie should rebrand into “The Rant Man with a beard.”

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

Bit too long but "The Rant Man" has a nice ring to it

@wannafedor4 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson My brother would see me watching you over my shoulder and call you “Beard Guy.”

@H3cJP 6 ай бұрын

btw the current version is up to date, 0.33.1 was released 3 days ago and its already on the arch extra repo, so it seems that its anymore a problem, lets see if they keep rythm

@hiru92 6 ай бұрын

watching it on hyprland 😁

@LunarLambda 6 ай бұрын

I like that hyprland has no way to easily set the default wallpaper but also ships an obnoxious anime girl wallpaper by default that you can't turn off either

@cheetahstrike2137 6 ай бұрын

You can turn that off (force_default_wallpaper = 0)

@umop3plsdn 6 ай бұрын

you can turn her off you just got to read the wiki lol it was literally for this purpose alone since no one seems to read the documents

@tomverlaine728 6 ай бұрын

I went to swayfx after I saw that. Target demo seems to be discord spergs. I had a good i3 config anyway. The animations are nice tho!

@Sette_megaera 6 ай бұрын

speaking of out of date aur package the 32 bit version of gtstreamer outdated and broken in arch which is needed for a fully working native wine gaming or even a video playback for specific video or sound format or atleast was the situation few months ago but since i switched to ubuntu im not sure if most things are still broken

@sergeykish 6 ай бұрын

I am fine with few months lag. I can always fetch PKGBUILD and update version. I can't agree with automatic switching to AUR, security expectations are different.

@darsparx 6 ай бұрын

I'd love to see where if this happens theres a way if the community is out of date then use the official and vice versa. That would be ideal imo 😅

@sharperguy 6 ай бұрын

in nixos at least if a package is out of date you would just add an override in your config to point to the new version. Of course your have to the build from source but it should work without needing to install and build dependencies

@user-tr2vj9pg1s 6 ай бұрын

The maintainer had his opinions on calling the building system a mess, and why it's less of a mess now but still a mess, which I'm not an expert to comment on either way. At least read the whole merge request thread before saying the maintainer didn't read the Hyprland wiki and instructions.

@cfillion 6 ай бұрын

Arch is still shipping Ruby 3.0 (2 years out of date!) while upstream is now at 3.2 and soon 3.3, LLVM 17 has been out since September yet the repo is still stuck on 16...

@Enthrall2006 6 ай бұрын

I've experienced many broken git package builds with comments telling them how to fix it last year. It makes me so mad sometimes. And in these cases what can you do? You can't flag it out of date because its not outdated. They should have a flag broken package build option at least and allows a time out period before that maintainer has to give it up. If no one takes it then put it into the archive repo you mentioned or just remove it.

@greatgamegal 6 ай бұрын

Using the git version myself and I've yet to have it break due to that, but I also have a couple other options installed if it does break that I feel comfortable just launching from like tty2.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

You can absolutely get lucky with the git version but it's not uncommon for a regression to slip in. It just may not be a regression you care about

@istasi5201 6 ай бұрын

any update videos on wayfire?, i noticed raspbian 5 ships with it

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

Oh I wasn't aware of that

@gtsiam 6 ай бұрын

I would agree with you up until a week or so ago, at which point merge requests where still closed - but since that is no longer the case, I'd rather wait and see how the packaging situation evolves.

@qlum 6 ай бұрын

What's still a posibility, though not a commonly used one is maintaining a unofficial user repo, where the package could be updated faster. As far as I know nothing prevents that. it's just inconvenient to do.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

The AUR is really distant from the core repos, and cannot be directly interacted with by Pacman maybe something like that with looser submission requirements would be a good idea

@pagwin5308 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson I don't think that's what they mean, I think they're talking about what's described under "REPOSITORY SECTIONS" in the pacman .conf man page (put a space before the period so youtube doesn't make it a hyperlink), namely using that to specify a package repository location that isn't officially a part of arch linux I'd link to it directly but I've heard that youtube doesn't like links due to spam/scam filtering

@qlum 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson That's why you have the option to add your own repo's to the pacman config, this has been done for a couple of things, most noticable zfs-linux.

@evoltaocao5078 5 ай бұрын

@@qlum zfs is always out of date. f that lol btrfs ftw

@terminalvelocity4858 6 ай бұрын

Brodie, my eyes! Dark Reader for your browser? 😉

@ChrispyNut 6 ай бұрын

The name that comes to mind would be confusing because of OpenSuse, but "Slowroll" repo I think would work. Informing that the package is being maintained, just ... of low importance (perhaps temporarily) or only updated every few releases for increased stability.

@SafetySheepRnD 6 ай бұрын

Sounds like what Arch needs are paid full time maintainers or more volunteers. If you look at AUR, there are a bunch of orphaned packages as well, so it's not like there's an excess of untapped man-hours sitting around not updating these packages.

@cebolinharenato 6 ай бұрын

The problem of volunteers is that motivation to mantain old projects goes away and the mantainer abandon the project. As they don't get money to continue there is no more reasons to work for free.

@SafetySheepRnD 6 ай бұрын

@@cebolinharenato A lot of projects find new maintainers because someone who is using the package notices it has become orphaned and adopts it. Be the change you want to see in the world.

@starsetknight 6 ай бұрын

I run the -git version of hyprland, but I'm aware that I live on edge, but good to know I'm not affected by this (at least with hyprland) lol

@starnumber_alt 3 ай бұрын

Also pacman should notify of the out-of-date tag

@zeocamo 6 ай бұрын

i would love for Arch to fix this Brodie is talking about. something like pinta that is flag out of date, it just need to change 1 line so it can build on the new version of dotnet, it will work but because it say 7.0 and not 8.0 then we can't update to dontnet 8 it is a so simple change but no one is there to make it? error: failed to prepare transaction (could not satisfy dependencies) :: installing dotnet-runtime (8.0.0.sdk100-3) breaks dependency 'dotnet-runtime-7.0' required by pinta -> error installing repo packages

@Daktyl198 5 ай бұрын

To be fair to him, a large shift in build setup on a single package out of the probably hundreds or even thousand he is in charge of is definitely "upstream's mess", and it shouldn't be necessary for him to go out of his way to read a wiki about the change. I'm sure he would have gotten there eventually, but that's hardly his fault.

@FengLengshun 6 ай бұрын

Yeah, in comparison many of the other distro are maintained by corporate employees (even Debian). Main arch repo is weird in that it's pretty small compared to the other big distro but it's also the least maintained (I've heard gnome packages having similar issues as well). It isn't a complete disaster, but issues happens, and it's part of the reason I'd rather enjoy Arch through Distrobox and Conty

@niksingh710 6 ай бұрын

which mouse scroll extension you have?

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

Autoscroll

@niksingh710 6 ай бұрын

sad that it is not available on firefox.@@BrodieRobertson

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

You don't need one, there's a setting for it on Firefox

@niksingh710 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson wow I wasn't even aware of that thanks buddy....

@nobloat5702 6 ай бұрын

I just can't wait for Hyprland to get more "stable" so I can use it on Debian.

@Funny0facer 6 ай бұрын

Instead of moving it to a different repo, I think the following would be sufficient for your use case: Pacman could throw a message/warning when it catches that a package on your system is flagged out-of-date for more than X-time. This message should not be thrown again for Y-time to not bother the user every time, they update the system.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

By itself that puts the user in a position where they have a problem but no realistic way to deal with it.

@Timbalo0 6 ай бұрын

Not sure how a video about a single specific package not being updated for a while (yeah, i was waiting patiently for an update too) does any good, especially *after* it has been updated a couple of times since (only a few hours after the git release too). I kinda feel bad for the package maintainer right now, being called out for what is basically a click-bait.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

It's a recent example of a common problem

@spinkey4842 6 ай бұрын

i see someone walked outside to get the mail...... that sunburn got yo ass

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

That's from the beach

@notimportant7682 6 ай бұрын

The more i think about it the less I think its possible to come up with a smooth solution that doesnt errode the layers of trust that a distro is built on. You either expand your vetting process and communication network between maintainers to create room for horizontal growth, you allow less vetted comunity members to fill the gaps but with a fair warning and let the user opt in, or you let things remain human and occasionally slow.

@Daktyl198 5 ай бұрын

I love that Hyperland exists, but as somebody who basically requires a floating window manager, I'm basically SoL for Wayland-first WM/DE options until COSMIC comes out unfortunately. Or maybe Plasma 6, but honestly Gnome and Plasma are both just too heavy for me these days. And yes, I've tried Wayfire... it sucks.

@Debianz 6 ай бұрын

This is why NixOS is the new Arch Linux in my opinion. Creating packages are standardized under the Nix scripting language, and completely messy build scripts are less of a problem. Not to mention that every program is built in a sandbox so updates to libraries don't break other packages that also rely on those libraries. The only down side of NixOS is the learning curve. If your not a programmer or your not willing to learn a bit of programming your out of luck. And honestly, coming from Arch and moving to NixOS, when ever anyone talks about how "hard" Arch is and thinks that using it means they are smart, I laugh. Arch is babies first Linux distro compared to NixOS. And to be clear, that is a BAD THING that NixOS needs to work on. Being hard to use shouldn't be a positive because sudo intellectuals want to feel smart.

@jdecicco91 6 ай бұрын

Not sure if sudo intellectuals was a pun or mistake. But I’m enjoying it anyway

@Debianz 6 ай бұрын

@@jdecicco91 Pun, lol. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

@Hyperboid 6 ай бұрын

For anyone who doesn't get the sudo joke, just rot13 this text: fhqb fbhaqf xvaqn yvxr cfrhqb, qbrfa'g vg?

@folksurvival 6 ай бұрын

*you're

@drishalballaney6590 6 ай бұрын

my other issue with nixos is that modifying the package yourself can be a big pita, sometimes the method to do so would be absolutely different per package and also there have been issues with broken packages on updates specially on nixos unstable

@1qwerasdzxcvfrtgb 6 ай бұрын

Hyprland is great! Until I have to start looking through the wiki...

@ytfeelslikenorthkorea 6 ай бұрын

maybe just pull the configs from JaKooLit or some other good soul providing installers and dotfiles? that's what I did and I just started my journey by looking at the configs and learning the functionality. I am amazed so far.

@conjurermast 6 ай бұрын

Compared to Awesome`s docs It`s paradise. (and discord has a ton of searchable solved problems)

@Timbalo0 6 ай бұрын

The wiki is great, no idea what you're talking about...

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

Grab the Arco config

@linhusp2349 6 ай бұрын

Ppl can praise the hyprland wiki all they want but to my eyes its no different than the KDE setting. Such a mess

@estevaomendes2305 6 ай бұрын

Well, I do hate myself enough to the point of debugging patch and wlroots version conflicts on dwl, lol. But, besides these casualties, it's still a pretty good compositor.

@ratatouillegamer7132 6 ай бұрын

Hyprland is very faster, i think Hyprland renderer is the fastest renderer, if you compare with other Compositors: Kwin, Mutter this all is not much more faster including in Blur and Effects, for some reason, this is really faster, i think Mutter will be fast in the same capabilities after GLES 3.0 + Triple Buffering + Direct Scanout using Hardware planes + DRM Deadline, i think this can achieve more performance than Hyprland

@RedBlueProductions1 6 ай бұрын

some packages are marked out of date even though they receive updates! i forget which one it was though

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

Some people are just stupid and mark it when it's not out of date

@callmesteve7874 6 ай бұрын

Well, the problem can be solved as follows: if the maintainer is not working on the package for some reason, they can make a button in the AUR (in addition to the "flag package") with text like "I want to become the maintainer of this package!". When you click the button, an email notification goes to the existing maintainer with the following content: "Dear maintainer! Your package has been marked as not being updated for a long time. We ask you to respond to this message and update the package, or mark the start of work with an update of the package to increase the deadline, so we know that you're on it." If the maintainer does not take any action for, say, a week or two, then the maintainer of this package becomes the person who pressed the button. Something like that. And it is not technically hard to program.

@mskiptr 6 ай бұрын

Maybe having pacman warn us on updates that packages are out of date would be enough. + a process to start maintaining such packages in the AUR ofc. A whole extra repo seems like an overkill, and it would make git history an even greater mess. Tho moving packages to AUR wouldn't be much better in this regard, so I guess our best option would be to instead have other maintainers review and accept patches from the general public. Also, if warning users about every out-of-date package is too much noise, maybe some 'abandoned' flag could be created instead. Or pacman could just warn when a packages is out-of-date for more than a month or something.

@geooot 6 ай бұрын

Im surprised upgrading the package is such a manual process. Why cant they automate the packaging process? Also, it should probably be easier for people to contribute the new release where the maintainer could be the final judge on whether to merge it.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

In this instance the build process was changed by upstream

@NHOrus 6 ай бұрын

Can you share your hyprland config? Once, upon a time, my wm was DWM, and hyprland feels closest to that.

@yogurtColombiano 6 ай бұрын

You could try dwl, it is the closest dwm implementation for wayland. IIRC i think it is based on wlroots

@wifibills 6 ай бұрын

@@yogurtColombiano it is based on wlroots

@MegaManNeo 6 ай бұрын

You should see the OBS' when it comes to double entries and outdated packages. It's just as bad as the AUR can be, according to your story.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

Never use the unofficial OBS just use the flatpak to get the full feature set

@MegaManNeo 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson oh, I mean SUSE's open build service.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

@@MegaManNeo by bad, the context clues were a bit hazy

@MegaManNeo 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson fair but having the same shortcut for multiple projects too is terrible to begin with 🤣

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

@@MegaManNeo they've both been around for a while, I'm not actually sure what was first

@julkip 6 ай бұрын

I would say this is an inherent problem of community run rolling release distros…

@laughingvampire7555 6 ай бұрын

Nix rocks, is just the best package manager in all of Linux.

@Spartan322 6 ай бұрын

I remember dealing with this for Godot which was 2 weeks out of date for one of the 4.1 patch releases. When you have teams relying on you for a version update, waiting for the arch repo packages to help you can be a nightmare when you need a bug fixed asap, and since Godot 4 became the mainstream version it got nuked off the AUR despite the AUR repo only ever being a day or two out of date. I said screw it and decided to just duplicate the old AUR package, changed the version, and retrieved it from the github release directly assets, few days after the Godot package got updated, but now I have a local package that I use to force the Godot package to be updated even if the arch repo stays out of date. Installing Godot is trivial since its just a single portable executable file you can download and its only 100 megs, but I wanted my package manager, desktop shortcuts, and path to have the correct version without hassle since I make use of them regularly. Was easier that way.

@billeterk 6 ай бұрын

I don’t know the program but now I’m curious if it was named just for “Waiting for Godot” jokes!

@Spartan322 6 ай бұрын

@@billeterk In part, yes.

@tireseas 6 ай бұрын

Archive repo eh? It'd happen with nearly every Gnome release.

@prism223 6 ай бұрын

This is a problem with the package system like cold fries are a problem with deep fryers.

@atemoc 6 ай бұрын

Currently on NixOS, running Hyprland on my main PC with NVIDIA graphics, under the stable channel. Re-tried arch a few weeks ago with the same set-up, and man, I love Arch, but I just got too comfy with NixOS, and it is more stable in my experience. Though, NixOS is not for everyone.

@PhilKulak 6 ай бұрын

And Hyprland is only a couple weeks out of date in Nix packages, currently. I get the feeling a lot of Hyprland users use Nix; it comes up a lot.

@notuxnobux 6 ай бұрын

Speaking of NixOS. Somebody packaged my software there and never updated it. It wasn't updated for 2 years despite the newest version having tons of bug fixes and many more features. NixOS has a bigger problem than arch when it comes to abandoned packages.

@billeterk 6 ай бұрын

Nothing’s for everyone. Without putting much work in NixOS is mostly super comfortable.. and occasionally really, really annoying :-)

@atemoc 6 ай бұрын

@@notuxnobux What is the package in question? Is it an official package, or just a flake?

@atemoc 6 ай бұрын

@@billeterk Everything's smooth until the documentation lacks. Arch and Gentoo's documentations are generally of better quality, or at least, fuller of useful information, a lot of which being distro-independent as well.

@niksingh710 6 ай бұрын

want hyprland back from arch repos to aur 😆

@pip5528 6 ай бұрын

I've paid for Premium since 2016 which gives you way more than just ad blocking and I think the war on ad blockers is hilarious. They keep shooting themselves in the foot.

@nombreapellido9038 4 ай бұрын

Is it me or does this guy sound like an Australian Gilbert Godfrey? He has good content and I am an ardent Archer (until I move on to another distro).

@BrodieRobertson 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for the compliment

@bims_sh 6 ай бұрын

I run so many -git packages on my system that I lost count. Never broke luckily.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

It's not like they suddenly break but on the off chance you update on a bad commit you'll have some fun

@yahhasz 6 ай бұрын

Only reason I don't use hyprland anymore (sway now) is because many applications that run xwayland (jetbrains IDE), are bugged. For example in case of Pycharm, the suggestion menu? (suggests the code you're writing) looks like it's been scaled incorrectly and is squashed down so you don't understand anything. Otherwise, great

@Skelterbane69 6 ай бұрын

Couldn't you make a windowrule that scales it properly? Or am I misunderstanding the problem?

@yahhasz 6 ай бұрын

@@Skelterbane69 many github issues create and no one sad they fixed it, doubt it

@aris1004 6 ай бұрын

Not archive repo. The limbo repo. 😁

@Tritium21 5 ай бұрын

[Laughs in CentOS]

@Budjarn 6 ай бұрын

Time to just give up and use flatpak

@SkylerLinux 6 ай бұрын

Arch Forum jerks love to say "Now that you know how to do it yourself don't use AUR Helpers" Yet I'm like yeah but YAY tells when when packages are flagged out of date

@hendrykhoza4782 6 ай бұрын

bro... I don't hate myself

@ThePotatoChronicler 5 ай бұрын

Wait... I think I tried out Hyprland for the first time during that time, and I have Nvidia GPU 🤔

@SnowyRVulpix 6 ай бұрын

Isn’t this a problem with most distro-based repos?

@Mr.Finkel 6 ай бұрын

all these wayland compositors are getting developed at a breakneck pace, i wouldnt expect a package maintainer to keep up realistically. Doesnt the package maintainer have some leeway to decide if new version of software have enough bug fixes/new features for it to be worth updating the package or not?

@bes12000 6 ай бұрын

I use Garuda Linux which is a branch of Arch and updates roll in nearly daily, even discord updates get rolled out the same day as release..

@UNATCOHanka 6 ай бұрын

"You're free (libre) to choose whatever packaging you want but lets "incentivize" people towards Flathub where possible and that should solve it. (Anyone who chooses another packaging type or standard will be shot. Remember, you are free to choose but not free from consequences.)" - Brodie "Stallman" Robertson

@knightrider585 6 ай бұрын

Haha dwl is the best so I think you got that wrong.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

Well it might be great but it's not a great use of your time

@knightrider585 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson I agree I wouldn't recommend dwl to other people. I like having a window manager/compositor that just does what I want it to though.

@Blueeeeeee 6 ай бұрын

Is this some kind of very clever clickbait ?

@tomverlaine728 6 ай бұрын

It's a youtube video

@littlemac5942 6 ай бұрын

Aur plz fix fluffychat

@mohamad20zx34 6 ай бұрын

Hey if hate arch then don't use it it simply as that use OpenSuse or even debain

@alphaomega154 6 ай бұрын

though the "arch" name would absolutely more "aligned" to my self . . . . . i found everything "arch linux" related very problematic on other linux distros. you know how flatpak is a "arch linux" thing, right? so recently i just updated the iGPU driver in my device which using non arch linux distro, and the opensource front-end of of one of my fav game, "corsixth" that installed through FLATPAK stop launching. apparently, flatpak's own freedesktop gl can not sync with the system's libgl or something. this kind of headaches. i dream the day where billions of COMMON people/peasants will start using linux, i just cant see that happening at this point. XD!!

@acuteaura 6 ай бұрын

given the level of maturity of the hyprland developers (plus bonus the transphobia), maybe you should be 2-3 weeks behind upstream. just in case.

@feschber 6 ай бұрын

dwl is great, if you hate yourself, lol

@maciej-36 6 ай бұрын

This is the least of the problems that Arch has...

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

What problems do you have

@maciej-36 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson Arch is by design unstable forever and packages can't be really tested properly because each Arch installation is different.

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

@@maciej-36 totally fair, I wouldn't run it in a production environment but it doesn't market itself as such

@maciej-36 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson You can run it in production if you do it like steam os does, choose and freeze base packages, make system partitions read only and install the rest of the software with Flatpak ;)

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

@@maciej-36 sure you can but now you've just made debian with more work for yourself

@AniAdamPashut 5 ай бұрын

Just make pacman work like bitcoin or something. Every one can commit but have to prove thats its the package. Nah its prob a bad idea

@ytfeelslikenorthkorea 6 ай бұрын

I installed it an hour ago and my jaw is dropped every 2 minutes - I am just looking at the Keybinding file prepared by one of the youtubers and I can't help but smile... finally! A desktop that does what it supposed to - focuses on MY NEEDS, my content, my work, not showcasing someone's questionable UI/UX choices (talking about you, KDE). Donated to the project because it's worth it!

@snickersanyone 6 ай бұрын

Not that you’re wrong, but have you ever seen how many people blindly flag pkgs as out-of-date.. (edit: removed “completly” since that implied that you were wrong in at least some parts, which is not what i meant)

@BrodieRobertson 6 ай бұрын

That's why I think there should be some time delay, if you don't notice a package you maintain was flagged out of date for a month let's say, that seems like an issue

@snickersanyone 6 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson Oh yeah, sorry I missed that. I think the only other solution would be some kind of branching. Everything stays as it is now, but anyone can submit their own version of a package: yay pkg still only shows one pkg, but yay pkg:id allows you to explicitly choose a version maintained by someone else. If the main pkg gets flagged as out of date, and isn’t updated within 4 to 6 weeks, then the most popular alternative gets bumped up to “official” status. Might be a good compromise between suse’s OBS mess and AUR’s current situation, but it would put some additional strain on the servers.