Natrium, Coal Gasification, and Synfuels Oh My!

Рет қаралды 6,059

Жыл бұрын

Cal Abel, CEO of Signal Power and Light, discusses the engineering behind the sodium-cooled fast reactor Natrium, and argues for their centrality in the U.S. coal to nuclear transition, as their high temperatures could be used for the dual production of electricity and synthetic fuels from the gasification of coal.
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Пікірлер: 99

@scottmedwid1818 Жыл бұрын

The thing that holds back clean nuclear power is excessive regulation of existing technology, facilities, and prohibitive regulation on advanced generation 4 machines. The big criticism of the generation 4 designs is that they have not operated. I would like to see North American regulators adopt a plan to allow for the testing and prototyping of some of the new designs that are working their way through the regulatory process in Canada and the US. If a company has gone through a couple of rounds of reviews by the regulators, and they have the financing, they should be allowed to move to prototype in testing phase. jJust build them and let us see what works.

@thejfactor1 Жыл бұрын

I disagree. The biggest problem with nuclear are EPC’s being unable to stick to the project schedule because of construction errors.

@Nill757 6 ай бұрын

@@thejfactor1That right? Why then is it only a problem with only nuclear power reactors, and mainly only US reactors, not Asian, not new aircraft mfn under FAA, not $B new drugs under FDA? The single difference is the US NRC, created 1975, never approved a new plant start to finish in its history until Vogtle, and did its best to kill Vogtle. Nothing will change w US nuclear, not Gen 4, not Gen 3, until the malevolent NRC is reformed.

@williamsmith1741 Жыл бұрын

Just wanted to make one slight correction with regards to the disposal of fission products. The vast majority of likely fission products will be gone within 20 years, not 300 years. The primary fission products that you'll have to deal with for more than 20 years are Cs-137 and Sr-90 which both have half-lives of ~30 years and thus will take around 300 years to almost completely decay away (although they'll be generally safe after a little more than 200 years). And Cs-137 and Sr-90, combined, only make up around 12% of likely fission products, with the vast majority of the rest of fission products being relatively short lived.

@bradsnyder8802 8 ай бұрын

Energy is everything. Can't believe this channel isn't swamped. Thank you so much for bringing such talented guests and fair arguments to the public!

@NomenNescio99 Жыл бұрын

RAID, Redundant Array of Independent Disks.

@joaoneves916 Жыл бұрын

Very interesting episode!

@gregthornton4750 Жыл бұрын

Cal I was trained on S5w plants. Love this thread sodium fast reactor for a gas turbine. I wrote a paper on this as an undergraduate. wicked extra cool!!!

@bentray1908 Жыл бұрын

This is a strong and practical plan. Where do we need to push on policy to make it happen?

@FernandoWINSANTO 25 күн бұрын

Wall Sreet

@gregfridholm2136 8 ай бұрын

Amazing. Let's do it!

@edwardleaver7838 Жыл бұрын

Might one suggest this video would likely get a few more hits if Cal's name were in the title?

@frankw2900 8 ай бұрын

I’m at one hour. Who is Cal? So many initials tossed into conversation frequently. Would be good to throw in what the letters stand for more than once.

@pedroferrari1 Жыл бұрын

you could source the CO from the gasification of waste (and solve two problems) instead of sourcing the CO from coal.

@christinearmington Жыл бұрын

Well that won’t make Joe Manchin happy ☹️

@mrrolandlawrence 9 ай бұрын

Amazing stuff. A man who shares my voice on synth fuels. The “hydrogen economy” is pure fantasy. Nuclear can make synth fuels a reality quite easily.

@billgoodwin8013 8 ай бұрын

I'm a South African listening.

@chapter4travels Жыл бұрын

Why pursue gen. IV over old-school PWRs? That was the question. Cost: Low pressure means lower cost. Separating the heat source from the heat application lowers cost (no NRC). Much higher fuel efficiency lowers cost. Utilizing existing waste as fuel is a profit center. Versatility: High-temperature salt can be used directly for hundreds of industrial applications replacing fossil fuels and is far cheaper than heating with electricity.

@chrisruss9861 Жыл бұрын

Impressed that a guy with ADD can focus on intense studies. Seems counterintuitive.

@danielschmidt2186 Жыл бұрын

It's common for ADD folks to obsess over technical or complex topics. The brain gets happy bouncing back and forth around all the components and their interdependent relationships.

@erkinalp 5 ай бұрын

@@danielschmidt2186 Yeah, special interests and hyperfocus (source:firsthand experience)

@vincentcleaver1925 Жыл бұрын

We just don't have the inputs to switch to EVs at scale, but synthetic gasoline and diesel hybrids are probably a much better bet.

@davidandrews1659 11 ай бұрын

This is the future! Let’s roll we need this as a country! A full circle industry here in the all of these variations mentioned in the USA; mining, milling, fuel construction, production of synfuels. reactor construction,etc. etc. The list is long and so doable!

@vincentcleaver1925 Жыл бұрын

If PBR is pebble bed reactor, it would be helpful to unpack the acronym a couple of times for us guys in the kiddie pool... 8-P

@chapter4travels 16 күн бұрын

Africa has a lot of coal and can start fresh with non-hostile nuclear regulators. Such a great opportunity for the production of synthetic diesel and jet fuel.

@happyhome41 Жыл бұрын

Dr Keefer, it would be good to have someone on, or several someone's really - who are experts in their field (you've never had anyone who isn't - so this isn't about that) - where the "eye is on the prize" - "How will the world be different after the podcast is done ?" --- limit the questions to those that play to a given guest's strengths, have an agreed-to outline before you start, so you have just enough spontaneity to keep it interesting - and be more productive in terms of sound bites that support the final outcome. You struggled in this video, with your frustration at trying to pull teeth. And funny thing, the discussion was so disjointed, the first time I watched, I never heard the term "Natrium" and did not really understand where either of you were going. I saw a news item recently where NRC had licensed one of the SMRs, and that led me to look at the two that have received Federal funds in a big way, and then went down the path of Bill Gates and Natrium. Thus interested, I had to go back to your videos, wondering what you had addressed in SMRs, and imagine my utter surprise, to see the title of this video, and the fact it showed I had already seen it. Watched it again with new eyes. And it was never clearly stated in this setting, the beautiful sound bite for Natrium, of running the reactor 100%, and storing the heat independent of load - load following being accomplished by the operators of the storage medium. Anyway - I would love to help.

@bellakrinkle9381 Жыл бұрын

This is my newest favorite channel because it discusses the most important concerns, if our lives are to continue. The challenge is that all guests are specialized and not geared to publically sharing their knowledge. Everything is more digestible without rambling conversations. People lose interest quickly, these days. You guys are courageous...keep going; the channel will build over time.

@christinearmington Жыл бұрын

Yep 👍

@iancormie9916 Жыл бұрын

On the subject of fossil fuels, there is no shortage of peroleum, there is a shortage of cheep petroleum. Agree whole heartedly agree with not wadting a resource.

@MrVaticanRag 6 ай бұрын

The US Navy did a successful trial, making JP4 jet fuel from sea water and the atmosphere using nuclear power, (in Florida I believe), with the intent for aircraft carriers to manufacture the own jet fuel??

@Nill757 6 ай бұрын

Navy does not need to ask permission from the malevolent NRC. Natrium does.

@davidwilkie9551 7 ай бұрын

Some realistic practicality, you've gotta do what you've gotta do, constrained by Absolute Actuality. Also we should remember why and how, for which purpose and politics Jules Verne designed the Nautilus.

@treegreen4752 4 ай бұрын

This really makes me want to become a nuclear operator

@MrVaticanRag 6 ай бұрын

Probably all battery electric mining equipment is impractical but with the exception of the dump trucks which could be hybrid with electric motors providing the necessary variable torque and speed while the diesel engine runs at its optimal revolution charging the suitably sized battery pack and able to do regenerative braking conserving energy and enabling the diesel's max power requirements to be reduced (as this comes from the battery) hence a smaller and lighter diesel engine can be used.

@martinfalls1023 8 ай бұрын

Current estimates for running the who worlds energy systems on Nuclear are that we have 9 years of urainium known reserves if we did that. We would need other types of fuel for nuclear. So nuclear is a commodity restrained form of energy. So we need to manage a mix of what is possible, including hydrocarbons, including coal which is the largest for of energy commodity available.

@johnedwards1154 7 ай бұрын

We can recycle spent nuclear fuel using fast neutron reactors to increase the utilisation by 50 to 95 times. Minimising the amon t amount of long lvved w aste.

@raypizzuti6326 7 ай бұрын

Great talk. Would have been better if interviewer would ask shorter questions and let the nuclear scientist do most of the talking

@NomenNescio99 Жыл бұрын

Natrium catches fire when exposed to air and explodes when in contact with water. I'm not a nuclear engineer, but surely there must be a better coolant than that.

@factnotfiction5915 Жыл бұрын

Well, there are other coolants, salt and lead (lead/bismuth) and gases, He, N2, CO2. Sodium - nice because it is transparent to neutrons, and can go to about 800 C (the transparency is good, because then the neutrons can make it to the next fuel element). If sodium absorbs a neutron, the decay chain can take you back to sodium, or any other element will sink. I tend to agree that the potential for exposure to air is problematic, but there are engineering work-arounds. Pumps etc already designed and operating. Salt - _particular_ salts are mostly transparent to neutrons, and can go to about 1200 C (depending on salt). Nice because it is inert. Minor corrosion problem (much over-hyped) at particular pH levels. Pumps etc are NOT already designed and operating, so small supply chain issue on making cheap. Lead/lead alloys - mostly transparent to neutrons, and can go to about 1800 C. Nice because it is inert. Heavy, thus a minor friction problem in pipes etc. Pumps etc are NOT already designed and operating, so small supply chain issue on making cheap. He/N2/CO2 gases - mostly transparent to neutrons, and can go to VERY high temperatures (no phase changes ever). Gases nice because inert, and contaminants drop OUT of gas. Can be replaced with air (although potential water damage if using atmosphere air) in an emergency. Major problem is that these reactors tend to be physically large in volume. There are also some strange coolants - oil (the C and H act as moderators!) springs to mind. But these are not really actively researched AFAIK.

@thejfactor1 Жыл бұрын

The “catching fire” part is a net benefit because it makes leak detection much easier. Technicians used to slice their fingers from high pressure steam because it’s invisible. As far as the “explosion” part, you’d need a huge quantity of water and a huge leak to blow up a reactor.

@NomenNescio99 Жыл бұрын

@@thejfactor1 Or as we say in software development "it's not a bug, it's a feature". Joking aside, I read a report from the development of the Russian bn-600 reactor, and they had a number of incidents with coolant leaks and subsequent fires. Without deeper knowledge, I found this a little worrying. Although I'm pretty sure those issues can be worked out with a little more engineering.

@thejfactor1 Жыл бұрын

@@NomenNescio99 if the Russians had a significant number of leaks, you would expect Natrium to have more because of inexperienced welders. So long as it doesn’t cause a radiological release I suppose it’s alright for a demonstration plant.

@chapter4travels Жыл бұрын

The sodium never leaves the reactor vessel, molten salt is the heat transfer fluid.

@rodneytrynor7374 Жыл бұрын

The Space Demonstrator Engine (SPDE) was the earliest 12.5 kWe per cylinder engine that was designed, built, and tested. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_radioisotope_generator Could this scale up to power ocean shipping?

@8BitNaptime 9 ай бұрын

How come you can paste wiki links? If I try it, my comment doesn't make it. Let me try: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah That's my answer to nuclear ocean shipping...

@rodneytrynor7374 9 ай бұрын

could this be used as an emergency generator in disaster areas?@@8BitNaptime

@billgoodwin8013 8 ай бұрын

Most of our nuclear scientists live in Maryland nowadays.

@vincentcleaver1925 Жыл бұрын

I wrote all of this before I watched and damn, this is exactly this!!! We need a non carbon source of process heat badly and concentrated solar power doesn't work particularly well anywhere outside of California, North Africa and Australia. Japan is looking into red hydrogen, heat hydrolysis of water, for a hydrogen source, but all the things we burn hydrocarbons for presently still need to be done either with hot atoms or electricity

@jeffmumm7690 3 ай бұрын

How many homes would the nuclear reactor in a aircraft carrier power

@chapter4travels 2 ай бұрын

Zero, because those reactors use highly enriched uranium and that's illegal in domestic reactors.

@londen3547 9 ай бұрын

The heat from nuclear reactors is required to: 1) produce refined silicon for solar panels 2) convert coal to synfuels. Two great reasons to bring back nuclear.

@jeffmumm7690 3 ай бұрын

How many homes would a reactor in submarine power

@iancormie9916 Жыл бұрын

Steel and cement could also be powered with nuclear hydrogen. Not necessarily economic (for now) but it is technically feasible.

@8BitNaptime 9 ай бұрын

We already had a commercial nuclear vessel: the NS Savannah, wiki it. (I can't paste wiki links here, my comment gets disappeared). Also, turbine is pronounced turbine, not turbine.

@vincentcleaver1925 Жыл бұрын

It's a hell of a lot easier to follow the wandering mad suuuuper genius when the interviewer knows what the hell he's talking about and can gently get him back on track. Unlike with 'Ego' who stutters and doesn't always seem to know what point he was trying to make when he starts what passes for a conversation!!!

@frankw2900 8 ай бұрын

Both men are making an earnest effort.

@daniellarson3068 6 күн бұрын

The guest had stated he had Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD). He did seem to meander all over the place. He had a lot of information, but didn't stay on the task. The task was a focused short answer to the questions being posed.

@Nick-bh5bk Жыл бұрын

What is the danger to the planet if we try to electrify to the maximum extent? I would think solar flares would be a quick way to end us all.

@Nill757 6 ай бұрын

That right? How many combustion devices do you know of without electric ignition?

@ryccoh 6 ай бұрын

EVs work, even with mining, even cost wise. That's the only thing I find frustrating with this pod as it's a recurring theme but other than that there's always interesting stuff on here. Even the Tesla semi -truck works and will be cheap. Ships and planes are another thing, we can just let them continue to run on diesel. I'm still glad we have the option to make fuels out of coal though if we really had to. Given that there isn't much shale left we should give it a go

@Nill757 6 ай бұрын

“Even w mining” You know price of lithium went up 6x 2001? EV sales need to expand 10X just to get to 50M globally. What’s going to happen lithium, copper, nickel, aluminum if suddenly there needs to be 10x more, then 20x more?

@ryccoh 6 ай бұрын

@@Nill757 challenging but it's not like we haven't done this before

@Nill757 6 ай бұрын

@@ryccoh Sorry no, nowhere close, ever, in the modern world has any developed metal mining plus refining gone up even 3X in ten years. Takes 10-15 years to bring any new metal mine online. It’s bizarre where modern sensibility of how things are made have gone. After Theranos and the bogus blood drop w even Biden sitting w CEO selling that hoax, Nikola bogus hydrogen trucks, FTX, it’s clear people will believe any kind of tech hype w out looking behind the curtain. If the Hindenburg blew up in NJ today, there’s would be massive subsidies and mandates soon after to make it the next wave of aviation.

@PaulHigginbothamSr 2 ай бұрын

Nuclear energy IS NOT just boiling water. It is a changeover from dense concentration of past solar energy. Nuclear power millions of miles removed and time. No my concept is moving from lower concentration of energy to higher density fuel. Not steam, but super critical co2 in a Brayton cycle small modular reactor. Thorium molten salt reactor.

@tokbucks 3 ай бұрын

Li battery prices are dropping to $55/ whr, word

@chapter4travels 16 күн бұрын

Batteries don't produce energy.

@Nill757 6 ай бұрын

@52m, “I’m comparing it (synfuel) to oil” Saving 28% carbon over oil is nowhere near good enough. Cmon. Ammonia maybe, or carbon for direct air capture.28% lower synfuel global industry is nuts.

@chapter4travels 16 күн бұрын

28% less pollution is really good, this fuel is also more efficient because it's cleaner. Who gives a ship about carbon?

@Nill757 15 күн бұрын

@@chapter4travels then who gives a ship about pollution.

@chapter4travels 15 күн бұрын

@@Nill757 Pollution is real and has real negative health effects. Co2 is atmospheric fertilizer with the bonus of adding a bit of much desired warmth. More co2=good, more pollution = bad.

@Nill757 14 күн бұрын

@@chapter4travels what ya talkin about. All kinds of water and air pollution are literally nitrogen compounds that make fertilizer, causes growth in the water, etc. Therefore, “more pollution” = good. And, if I feel I get too much of it I intend to dump it in your backyard, same plan as CO2. I can keep up this hand waiving bs all day. Everything, *everything* has a concentration limit, or just a rate of addition limit, where it can begin to cause harm, including fertilizer, oxygen, even water, and yes CO2.

@chapter4travels 14 күн бұрын

@@Nill757 See, even you know the difference between real and fake pollution.

@davidcarey9135 Жыл бұрын

Nuclear power makes sense in countries that lack much in the way of their own energy resources (think France, Japan etc). The idea that nuclear power is in any way a substitute for world wide use of fossil fuels is complete fantasy. The only really useful applications of nuclear power are baseload electricity and some limited heating applications. Electricity is about 20% of global energy use. If the world tomorrow decided to mass build nuclear plants all around the world in every country to move to a world wide complete nuclear electric grid (again complete fantasy), maybe in 40 years time, you would get to something like 20% of global energy use being nuclear. Significant, but hardly a "decouple" from fossil fuels.

@edsteadham4085 Жыл бұрын

I take your proposition. Let's build out the nuke fleet. I will take something that solves 10 percent of the problem with near certainty than the 100 percent solution that doesn't work.

@theAraAra Жыл бұрын

Considering that electrification is part of the solution in other sectors like transport, industry, etc I'd say we need to build enough nuclear for world's current electricity demand and then some.

@Nill757 Жыл бұрын

Lots of claims about fantasy but no reasoning. Nuclear load flies just fine if built that way, as French and German reactors were. French built their entire nuclear fleet without trying hard in 15 years. Could do the same with the rest of the energy load, either electrifying or w syn fuels as addressed by this guest

@Nill757 6 ай бұрын

Waste of time? Fun paree execute but such design getting through NRC.

@christinearmington Жыл бұрын

Joe Manchin will be so happy $🎉$

@ankeunruh7364 8 ай бұрын

As one coming from the same nation as Adolf Eichmann, I spent my life trying my best not to contribute to a "follow procedures" society. Also it's NOT a lot of fun for most humans I know or knew. Most of us aren't like you two, I guess. We would need a reliable culture of education and training first, protected and guided by wise and strong and healthy adults. Millions of Go playing children. The will to cooperate with cultures in which this is developed best.