Toplane is way too reliant on matchups. Doesn't matter how good of a player you are, some matchups are mathematically made for you to lose.

Put a wall that breaks when herald spawns and if a Jungler jumps the walls they get executed

The most soulcrushing part of this is that the jungle doesn't even have to kill anyone, doesn't even have to show up in the lane. The pathing alone is impactful enough to decide your lane for you.

In my experience, in toplane the only jungler is enemy jungler

While everything Alois says is true. He seemingly skips over the matchups, which Nemesis correctly catches. The most frustrating part about toplane is how heavily counter picking affects the lane. In midlane you mostly play ranged vs ranged with multiple skillshots that are dodgeable. The lane is also rather short so even if your opponent freezes on you, you can always at least stay in XP range and usually get the cs as well. Not to mention because midlane is in the middle of the map it's way more likely for a jungler or support to help you out in a tough matchup. Botlane is in theory similar to top, but in practice at least in soloQ. Your play and coordination with your team mate is way more important than matchups. Since if 2 champions focus 1 they should win... In toplane you have no such interactions. The only way you can turn a losing matchup on it's head is if your opponent makes a mistake or if you get ganked. But at least in EUW soloQ junglers often act like toplane doesn't exist and even if they gank it they often times lack practice and gank on poor timing windows. This is also why a lot of people complain about champions like Darius/Olaf/Riven. Those champions are extremely strong level 1 and continue having strong all ins through out the laning phase, which means that 99% of champs toplane just have to mitigate losses and hope their team carries them, which is extremely frustrating.

I agree that this is incredibly frustrating, but the nature of top lane at the moment is to become a monster In the mid late game. It’s really hard to justify not taking TP simply because of wave states in case of jungle pressure. It’s more reliable

Toplane right now is literally just counterpick city and not trying to win, but seeing which one of the two of you loses less.

Some Camilles run TP-Ignite for this reason. You can easily lose lane without teleport.

This is a jungle/counter problem. Realistically, if even in skill toplane is more of a farm sim depending on mid/jgl presence.

Nemesis face entire video be like: "Yeah yeah whatever.... Iam not even listening"

I mean this is going to somewhat be fixed next season since voidgrubs will incentivize junglers to path to top

Honestly everything mentioned here is kinda the reason why most junglers become junglers in all elos lol. It's just so frustrating to not make that many mistakes but hard core lose simply because of jungler interaction. I rarely meet junglers who become junglers naturally the majority of the time the answer is. "I kept getting bad junglers and felt i could do better" lol. Feel him talking about camille and ignite is irrelevant, for two reasons 1-you are demanding players to have high champion pools, and suggesting he should have one the hardest characters in the game in his list of options (Irellia). You shoulden't be punished this hard for not knowing every top laner. When the majority of top laners already have the more complicated kits and play styles. It's not like adc where if you know one adc you kinda know all adcs. 2-Even if he had Irellia in his pool, he would still be screwed here by kha zix good pathing and the bad pathing of his jungler

Nemesis try not to disagree with everyone while believing the same thing , challenge impossible

Sort of true,everyone is affected by weakside(mid a bit less).Top has the most resources in the game and the champions that can abuse them.Map impact is less but that’s the tradeoff.

When the Graves lv 2 invades the Evelynn, when the enemy team is not afk and gets vision, when the top laner is at your red to invase than tp top with a free kill

Not going ign on Camille against Riven makes you instantly lose.

Alois talk so fast that the sped up video of him talking sounds normal to me.

It's almost like jungle is a big impactful role for every lane

Main strength of camile is gank setup if your jg paths away from her then her main strength becomes useless

love alois

you can't expect to be impactful early game as a ignite Camille with no jungler

im glad we have so many experts on the chat

i cant really weigh in, but as an adc it is very annoying winning lane and then losing cuz my top died 5 times in 1v1 and now i gotta kite a raid boss sett

Buy funny hammer item. There you go, there's your impact.

Is the same for adc if ur support is not human is gg for u if the matchup is a bit bad. (High elo)

Holy shit the double speed yaps on that bloke

my issue is how often the enemy team sends 3 top and how often the 2 remaining enemies wipe my 4 allies on the other side of the map xdd

to be honest, i dont know what to say because i slept through the video

Ok i have a question. Why tf does he zoom in Twitter to see the video and not full screen it 😂

You are correct, but you cant dismiss his point entirely. I am a toplane main. I have very little impact on my games until I began to main Shen. And his impact only exists because Shen has the best ult in the game pretty much lol, It's a second tp. Because it allows me to be other places I can push things on the map without giving tower. Riot needs to think of something that makes Toplane more important. As it is, most junglers are JUST gonna play around bot, not only because Dragons but also because the ADC, they JUST 75 percent of the time even in high elo play around botlane and only think of top when bot is hard struggling and they cant do anything down there... Even then, by that point junglers pray upon the possibility they can push a lead mid. I stand by the idea ive always had since the alcoves were included: Put a new jungle monster in toplane that sits in the alcove, spawns at 5 minutes, is about as tough as herald and gives 100 gold to the entire team once someone kills it. only spawns once during the laning phaze. Boom, what do you have? An incentive to be in top lane for the Top laners most crucial timeframe, the first 10 minutes, that doesn't break the entire game. You can bounce back from every enemy getting a hundred gold. And it doesnt even need to be that! Just dear god, riot, give these guys an incentive to look at top lane. Herald isnt even a good enough reason, as most junglers can solo or get Mid support for it. Do junglers roam top? Yes. Do they ever gank? DUDE, get real, most junglers, especially low elo junglers, run to their deaths to save bot lane before they rush to a perfectly gankable fucking top lane freeze ON GOD.

But what is he supose to do, play flash tp to be the juglers good puppy, like, flash and tp just to survive de lane, also that now you cannot play agresivly with your e?

learning league is great cuz every time i look up a vid on how to counter a tough top matchup the answer is get your jungler to do it lol

Toplane in low elo is great though. I feel rewarded for good play but punished so damn hard when i lose and its really sad when im perma dove in counter matchup and nobody helps cover turret or me. Then they get up on a whole item and i just wanna die. More fun doing that to them.

Unfortunately league of legends is a team game, and if this interaction causes this type of problem, then its up to the junglers to know their match ups really well or for the top to explain to them what they need and then the junglers basically just hover and make sure nothing crazy happens in the lane. I know junglers like being bot side almost all the time and getting those drags, but as a top laner atm, you could win so many games by going top for the first round of ganks and making sure he gets a lead, and then let him play island smart and then collect later drags.

this guy : yapping baus : iam gonna die this wave 😎

You also get more XP and the champs usually played top are TUBO broken when ahead (which happens every game)

The counter matchups feel so brutal in toplane as the champ pool is extremely diverse. When I play mid, I play Morgana, I can safely clear the wave with W against any champ, and roam and support rather than having to win duels and constantly play off my wave like in top. With that being said, I play Darius and Voli top which is feast or famine, and Morgana mid which is super-low economy, but I think in general the game plays out like what I described

wise nemesis

Toplane is worse mid. There is nothing else left to say.

The TLDR version is jungle diff. This happens in bot lane a lot too. Especially if their jung is ganking and yours is full clearing. The adc also is tied to the lane more then most roles because marksmen champ provide very little in a roam where as supports can provide a lot. That wasn’t a top lane exclusive problem. That’s a jungle problem

Im confused the clip its thebausffs in replay but he says its drututt ?

Druttut choose to play camille ignite top, yes. But the fact junglers influence top lane summoner spells while the counterpart not being true kinda proves Alois's point. His claim is, "other roles have more impact than top lane", and it is true.

locks in illaoi

being forced to take tp is another problem in itself its XD moment.

He said all that to say jungle influences top hard.

top is just a champ diff. if its a big counter the enemy can be 30% as good as you and still win, since most of the time theres no counterplay.

*proceeds to play riven*

The issue is, while this might have been a "lost at champ select" game, but there are plenty of real picks that will just get diffed in lane without a real jungler making the lane playable.

Sometimes I genuinely wonder if the jungle role is good or bad for the game

there is a reason why lck top chose champ that can clear wave fast and always carrying tp

Can this same thing not happen bot lane? Im so confused why this would be a top lane specific thing

he can only do this because riven has no resources and more spells and more damage. So he can spam skills and win

Druts playing Camille, this is more of a camille problem than a top problem. Jax, renekton, Ornn, and most of the top lane field can get that wave in without issue. Because drut is playing camile who has been gutted to rely on jg, having a jg that doesnt play for him hurts more

Why is Drututt playing Thebausffs?

2:38 who else clicked accept?

Just revert tp nerfs

Toplaners when a team game isnt a 1 v 1 match *REEE shit game*

Top lane agency in general is poor. If you aren't playing a splitpusher or some other meta champion, you can't really play the game consistently. Any tanks besides ksante/malphite struggle to get prio and have agency in the game unless you're a good player on the champ like makkro or baus(And baus hardly plays sion anymore ive heard)

If you hard nerf jungle xp and gold, don't be surprised when junglers pick cc champs and just perma gank and ruin lanes every game. Invading is usually a waste of time

Too bad that your role is unfun and all but it doesnt justify the failure of top laner balancing. Too many of these characters are still brainless stat checks and I dont think the new items are going to change this at all next season. You can be 3-7 and still run down 13-2 adc's simply because of the nature of adc randomly being forced 2-3 levels down and splitting putting you astronomically ahead in xp. Im not saying the saying the role is broken, im not saying the champs are broken, but I AM saying you dont get to justify not having fun on the island role by making sure no one else gets to have any fun simply because of your champ, let alone the items designed for your champs. Just about every last item based meta we've had over the last couple years has been top lane tanks and bruisers. Sunfire, Sunderer, Stride, Gore, Chemtank, Ravenous, even Radiant Virtue had a stint. What other items have been turbo busted outside of those? Its pretty limited to duskblade and ghostblade.

Toplane is design as an island for champ that don't like group fight and champion that survives the lane well. That the whole point people are playing it. There are no point in changing into a copy paste lane.

bot laners talking about the "horrible freezes on bot lane" meanwhile they have a babysitter that can hold their waves, so delusional, adc mains being the most impactful role in 2 season in a row, but "adc build only damage how the fuck im getting killed by the top laner, i only eat 3 of his 4 abilities 😭😭😭😭😭"

Top is broken (in a bad way). I have 0 effect on bot lane or dragons. The 2 biggest factors in winning the game. The teleport nerf has removed top lane from the game.

toplane was always about just surviving and holding your lane and scaling into the midgame. the real problem i see is turret plating on top makes it so you get snowballed like crazy if you fall behind, you not only lose a wave but also 1 or 2 platings and then people want to dive and kill you more for more platings and to snowball you out. turret plating was only implemented for midlane because roaming was a fixed meta and midlaners completly abandoned their lanes with super mobile champs to perma roam because losing turret wasnt a big deal. but plating on top and bot was a mistake and ruined both roles by making snowballing way to bad and early game laning too important which is mostly dictated by matchups and not by skill.

So how exactly does this lead to "Toplane is broken" this gives more credits to jgl role 😂

No way that when the skill is even it is the rest of the team that makes the difference 🤯 MINDBLOWING

People are complaining that League is becoming a TEAM game. Back when dragon just gave tons of gold all that really mattered was mid+jung and botlane. In recent seasons mid+jung synergy became less important. Now that there are very important early objectives in baron pit the old recipe is back except this time its top and mid+jung. Every one has to move and help the other roles, but no one knows how to do that anymore. We all want to stand in our lane with horse blinders on. In diamond I've seen bot lanes rotating to 2nd grubs and sending mid bottom to hold lane. Then resetting for next dragon. Rotations like these and new ideas in general are hard to pull off because no shorthand for them exists yet. Lack of voice chat option really fostering frustration during periods of growth like is happening now.

You can say both toplaners opting into ignite means it's very snowbally (=once one of them gets a lead it gets worse and worse with time), but the issue alois is talking about it's that druttut didn't make mistakes for that initial lead to created by his opponent, and also riven didn't make anything special to create it aswell. You can consider the choice of ignite very reckless because once you die you can't tp, lose lane control etc... but you can't think it's ignite's fault here, even with tp he would have been forced to back and tp to get back in lane, his opponed would have caught the wave in time and nautilus would have roamed anyways. In conclusion: -the choice of ignite was taken by both toplaners (even starting ground) -the ignite itself didn't start the lead for riven in any way. -the tp wouldn't have denied the lead, it could have saved a few Cs and exp, that's all Toplane is very coinflip, not because all toplaner try to 1vs1 all the time recklessly, but because you are very dependent on your team, at least at decently high level. Idk about mid to low tiers

He's right, but he's only telling one side of the story. He's not talking about the games where Jungle gets perma invaded because 3 enemy lanes have prio. He's not talking about the games where ADC loses because there is literally a second person in the lane who is individually outclassed. He's not talking about the games where Mid is dealing with ganks and roams from literally every angle from minute 1... with only a single ward to defend themselves. If you want to cherry pick an example of an unplayable game, you can find it in every role. That's not a top lane thing. That's a League of Legends thing. Is it worse for top? To an extent... perhaps yes. But that's the double edged sword of Top lane right now. It's high risk for sure... but if you outclass your lane opponent, I would argue the carry potential surpasses every other role in this meta. And that's not just in solo queue either. Just watch Zeus - it's even evident in the World Finals.

but like....whats his point? should you be able to win the game while playing as good as your opponent as weakside? if camille is weakside this early game shouldnt the enemy bot be just as ahead? well no cuz they picked sona vs samira nautilus ofc they cant play. this just shows that an even matchup toplane needs the jungler to clear bot to top and a single support/mid/jungle gank to snowball the lane out of control. i dont think toplane is broken at all but with the semis and finals of worlds i can see where they are coming from (mostly theshy playing well in semis into complete brainfart vs t1) in euw chall theres a healthy amount of toplaners in the top 10/20/50 and for me in pisslow soloq impacting the game as jungle/mid/support is way easier than top

And at the same time if during champ select you got counter picked and we remove the jungle role out of the game, the game would've been determined by min 1 and you just accept fate that top is lost or any lane. You can look this entire scenario he mentioned about even match ups in every way possible but lanes would have been always the same no matter what if the jungle role didn't existed, what most likely would happen is we would had more intense support roams. Also with the mentality league players have after 2 deaths on lane they would've quit since there wouldn't be a jungler to help you out to bounce back.

It is just never fun to meet a feed toplaner. In fact it is the worst. He will most likely be more tanky than you, deal more damage than you and often have a good amount of mobility as well. In mid to late in general what other role can even one v one a toplaner who is good in the game.

Bro really thinks its a TP diff

Im sorry but like, if the champion might come up as broken, and the items might be considered broken, the lane is broken, as he says in the tweet and video, if most of what make a lane broken is broken, the lane is broken, the way you put it don't change this, in a lane you have you, your direct opponent and the items you carry, what does it not make it broken? Granted i care little to nothing i fill most of my games but like, wtf?

Nemesis is still missing the point and so is his chat. Yes Camile has limited options, yes the double ignite lane is snowbally, yes he could have gone teleport. But that's a skill matchup supposed to be even. All of this is because Lillia didnt path top, or her pathing was terrible and left top to die/lose to the 2v1 (Camile cant walk up to lane without losing half hp and level 6 if kha is there). Top had to keep in mind his jungler wasnt playing with him in champ select, while the other had both his jungler and support show up. "He should keep that in mind or comunicate more" only proves the point even more and the low agency they have.

The conclusion : jungle diff

How does this make top not broken tho imagine playing vs. a 10/0 bruiser u lose every fight till min 30by default if no one of ur team mates stomped and then it’s not like the bruiser won’t just one tap ur adc or w.e other squishy champ way easier than ur fed adc or w.e champ the bruiser

the thing is the lillia should not go to her botside there. lillia should go to krugs and full clear down again. clearing the level 1 blue and gromp is a lot worse than cycling through her higher level krugs and raptors, and she will end up fucking up the spawn timers of her botside as well. it still makes his point though that druttut had to rely on his jungler being good to be able to play the game

People just say top is broken now because of Zeus and Theshy

Both junglers should always 100% of games be pathing top in a volitile snowbally ignite vs ignite lane. Too much is won and lost in this crucial moment and you basically garentee a kill one way or the other. Every single korean chall jungler would path top, the problem is jungle mindset in the west. They think they are main characters, when really you are playing a support role. And this is coming from a jungle main.

people arguing about top not being the least impactful role have no idea about this game

Idk, while what he is saying is true I still don't have any sympathy for top laners. I'll take a 5/0 riven/camille/aatrox/illaoi/any bruiser or even tank nowadays with items like heartsteel existing over a 5/0 ADC. First point - not complaining about ADC or saying it is a weak role, it's not. I'm just saying it's really tiresome hearing top laners complain about lack of agency when if they can manage to get through the early game and their team isn't 5k+ gold down you rarely ever give a shit as a top laner. They just build hullbreaker and split in the side lane. Everything he says is true, but I can't stress it enough that what he is saying is ONLY relevant to high elo top lane. If you are in the Bronze to Diamond range none of this applies to you as a top laner. I'm low diamond and I can't even begin to count the number of games where I win bot but my top lane is so gapped that they take over the teamfights or they just build hullbreaker and split push and no one on my team can or wants to deal with them in the side lane. Personally for me as an ADC I feel like if the enemy Top gets fed early or is even decently strong in the mid game it is a challenge to win far more than in games where bot lane doesn't go well and I'm behind in gold to my opponent. If my support is feeding or I have bad deaths I just think "well lane is over but if I farm and play for teamfights as long as my top/jg/mid aren't behind the game is easily winnable." Edit: also as Nemesis said top lane is the lane where counterpicks and matchups matter the most for whatever reason. The champions played in that lane have a much shaper game of rock-paper-scissors than mid or bot lane. When I get a bad matchup bot it sucks but ultimately I'm not hating life it just will suck for lane most of the time. Same for mid (used to main mid). Top lane is far more about getting counterpick and having a good matchup than it is about Jungle pressure. Yes jungle pressure is a key factor but youre only going to have/receive jungle pressure based on whether or not your matchup is favorable and then the next question would be "do we win the 2v2 if both junglers are here?"

Matchmaking is a lot more volatile in low elo because players are now likely to play random shit (off main) and the presence of smurfs. If they get a smurf top vs your guy first timing Jayce it's gg at minute 2. As a jungler you can't even gank a top laner with a huge advantage, they will easily 1v2.

his main point (camille didn't make a mistake. only lillia made mistakes. lane is reliant on matchup & jgl) all apply to bot lane as well but instead of having to worry about 1 player/champ and track jgl, you have to worry about 3 other players/champs and track jgl. it's much easier to gank & you can play perfect but if your support decides to int it once or twice, 2 champs on your team will be useless for the rest of the game. it's much more volatile and the champs, as well as the items for most crit champs are a joke in comparison to top laners.

Isn't this something that happens to every lane when it comes to junglers?

Toplaners when the enemy nexus doesn’t insta explode from champ select

Did the jungler made that Camille go Ignite instead of TP against a Riven/K6 or what?

The camille should have swapped to TP as soon as the toplane matchup was clear during champ select.

just make it 6v6 with 2 supports so top laners stop womp womping

doesnt what alois say pretty much can be said about every other lane tho?

i like alois but it feels like he's trying so hard to cope in this vid, the reason why toplane is not broken while having overpowered champs and items is that 1/20 games both laners have same skill lvl and don't do mistakes so jg and supp decide the lane?? how abt us having higher lvl than everyone else just by existing and jg not being able to deal with us anymore cus they are 2-3 lvls below us and even if my laner dies 3-4times in lane he's still stronger than my teammates cus lvl and champ diff, idk i mained mid jg and top and games now are decided by the chad that no one can deal with and there is no excuse to that. btw if we cope with 'jg' then idk abt bot but i think midlaners suffer the most from jg supp impact but without toplane privileges that's why i swapped top personally with alois guides it feels so free.

This guy really just explain for 15 minutes that if you are same skill lv as your opponent you rely on your team to be the difference? That is always going to be true for any lane

plat players in the comments thinking any of this applies to them

Drututt has played a lot of Camille Ignite against Riven and won a lot but it's different when it's Alois Riven.

Alois acts liek most of these issues are toplane exclusive, when tey re not every other role is affected by jungle just as much. Botlane can get solo lost by jungle pathing too. And while bot doesn t have counterpicks, it is disproportionately affected by gaps in supports and Jungle too. Mid might be the least affected role sure. but it s still a 2v2 with jungle. Let s not ignore the absolute massive impact toplane has in the mid and late game. Hullbreaker automaticalyl draws 2 players pressure to you even after losing lane

Everybody is crying about how jungle is all that matters. I am a jungler for 13 years. I picked up top lane without any knowledge and hit master tier. It’s such a broken and easy role.

Build the wall

alois putting out info we've been knowing for 5+ years

Well mr nemesis for you its obvious why toplane has less impact for bronzes and golds no XDD

Disagree tbh. In pro play toplaners are massively important and influential on the game and in elo up to as far as probably GM how you play toplane will still have extreme importance. It's only in the niche where you're a top challenger player but not a pro where this impacts and honestly fuck the 0.0001%.