Why Gollum Doesn't age like Bilbo after the Ring

Why Gollum Doesn't age like Bilbo after the Ring | Tolkien Explained

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25 күн бұрын

Gollum doesn't appear to age after losing the One Ring while Biblo does - or does he?! Today, we dive into the books to answer this very common question!
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Riddles in the Dark - Daniel Govar
Bilbo - Steve Airola
Bilbo Baggins - Kinko White
Gollum - Steve Airola
Frodo - Soni Alcorn-Hender
The Riddle Game - Ted_Nasmith
The One Ring - John Howe
the hall at bag end - Matej Cadil
Gollum - Matthew Stewart
Bilbo there - Kinko White
young bilbo - Sara Morello
Bilbo - Elrodimus Flash
Gollum - Daniel_Govar
Sméagol and the Ring - Anke Eißmann
Gollum - Daniel Govar
gollum cave - felix englund
Riddles In The Dark Bilbo - John Howe
Riddles in the Dark Gollum - John Howe
gollum - Jerry Vanderstelt
Gollum - Anke Eissmann
Riddle Game - Ted Nasmith
Faramir bids farewell - Anke Eißmann
The One Ring - in the land of shadow - Kinko White
Gandalf Frodo and the Ring - Elrodimus Flash
Smeagol - Kinko White
Bilbo closeup - Kinko White
This is the master ring - Matthew Stewart
Gollum is Defeated - Ted Nasmith
The One Ring - John Howe
Gollum - John Howe
Bilbo returning home - Daniel Dougherty
The Shire - Painted Dragon
Bag End - Jerry Vanderstelt
Frodo Baggins - Matt Stewart
Bilbo Leaves Bag End - Elrodimus Flash
rivendell at sunset - kuliszu
Bilbo and Lindir - Jan Pospisil
The Council of Elrond - Alan Lee
Frodo and Bilbo - Anke Eissmann
Bilbo Baggins - Anke Eissmann
bilbo - Andrea Piparo
elrond and bilbo in rivendell - anotherstranger_me
Bilbo Reading - Matthew Stewart
The Lord of Rivendell - Peter Xavier Price
The Road Goes Ever On - Bilbo - Ralph Damiani
The Hobbit - Catherine Karina Chmiel
Bilbo at his desk - Abe Papakhian
Gollum in cave - Daniel Dougherty
Smeagol - Elrodimus Flash
Gollum - John_Howe
One Ring - Shannon Moe
Fantasy landscape - Felix Englund
keeper of one of the nine rings, nazgul - steamey
The Nine - Kinko White
Nazgul - Dzmitry Yakhouski
Sauron Portrait for Matt - Jerry Vanderstelt
Nazgul - Felix Englund
Nazgul Bowing Before Sauron - Kip Rasmussen
At the Cracks of Doom - Ted Nasmith
Arwen's gift - Anke Eißmann
Arwen Undomiel - Janka Latečková
Old Bilbo - John Howe
Rivendell - Ted Nasmith
Bilbo Baggins - Alan Lee
Old Bilbo Baggins - Elrodimus Flash
Rivendell - Alan Lee
bilbo baggins - aegeri
bilbo in rivendell - Matej Cadil
Departure at the Grey Havens - Ted Nasmith
Gollum - Elrodimus Flash
Gollum - John Howe
Misty Mountains - Felix Englund
The Shores of Valinor - Ted Nasmith
#gollum #lordoftherings #tolkien

Пікірлер: 462

@randallchastain1443 21 күн бұрын

When my dad read LOTR to me as a kid, he described the ring not as making one live longer, but making one die more slowly. This is why bilbo feels thin and stretched. Its not prolonging his life, its stretching out his death

@Percy_Fawcett 20 күн бұрын

Really interesting interpretation

@sarahmacdonald1647 20 күн бұрын

That’s pretty much what the rings did.

@justinstewart4889 18 күн бұрын

This actually is probably a more apt description.

@MrEmiosk 17 күн бұрын

True. A gnawing discomfort as Mandos urges your soul to come to the halls of the dead.

@sionsidhe9 17 күн бұрын

That actually makes a lot of sense, in Tolkien’s world only Eru, the true divine being, can create life, Sauron’s master Melkor/Morgoth hated this and chose to pervert what life he could to make something of his own, orcs made from elves, but he could only alter, twist a life form already in existence, never truly create new life. So it stands to reason Sauron’s rings can’t give more life either, only prolong death.

@adamswierszcz5586 23 күн бұрын

I think it's because of his diet. Fish are extremely healthy.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Sashimi without wasabi or soy sauce.😔

@Eloraurora 22 күн бұрын

@@EnerdhilGiven his reaction to Sam's cooking interlude, I think he'd take wasabi as a poisoning attempt.

@Enerdhil 22 күн бұрын

@@Eloraurora "It burns our throatses!"😵

@camerongreen4078 18 күн бұрын

Goblinses are full of seed oils though

@john-ic5pz 18 күн бұрын

trans fatses and cholesterols, my Precious! * GOLUM,GOLUM! *

@wereoctopus 22 күн бұрын

Bilbo is a sedentary creature, especially after going to Rivendell. Gollum is physically active with a diet of raw fish and the occasional goblin.

@CordeliaWagner1999 18 күн бұрын

The books say he loved long hikes and was out and about for days and weeks, and sometimes took Frodo with him. And they met Elves. That's why Frodo speaks Elvish and is educated about their culture and history. Bilbo never lost his sense for Adventure and lust for travelling

@patrickday4206 14 күн бұрын

@@CordeliaWagner1999yeah but was he eating fish and goblins

@thegatorhator6822 12 күн бұрын

@@CordeliaWagner1999 Fish and Goblin diet is secret to immortality. Spread the word. Start hunting goblins. No cooking either.

@pauljohnagustin4079 12 күн бұрын

And fresh babies You need glutathione

@rsoulinternet 9 күн бұрын

@@thegatorhator6822 Plenty of Omega 3 fatty acids

@thexbigxgreen 14 күн бұрын

"Butter scraped over too much bread" is such an excellent example of evocative writing, and is surpassingly beautiful in its simplicity and relatability.

@thegatorhator6822 12 күн бұрын

I like how most people, average laymen, would probably say it more like "too little butter spread over a slice of bread" but Tolkien considers bread would most often be eaten in such a setting in small loaves rather than in slices. Little things like that make a world of difference in writing.

@GrangeFarmAntics 11 күн бұрын

It’s one of my favourite lines, it’s so perfect for encapsulating how he feels, we know exactly what he means

@kingsteel2972 6 күн бұрын

I don't get what it's supposed to mean

@GrangeFarmAntics 6 күн бұрын

@@kingsteel2972 the clue is in the full quote ‘I feel thin, like butter scraped over too much bread’

@jrpipik 23 күн бұрын

Another passage that might be cited is the one when Gollum almost repents. The narrator says that if any had seen him at that moment, they would have seen an ancient Hobbit, frail and weal. He was impossibly old for his kind, but the Ring kept him going.

@thebatmary5954 23 күн бұрын

Even Gollum seems to understand this dimly. When he attacks Frodo and Sam on the slopes of Mt. Doom and Frodo leaves him for Sam to deal with, Tolkien writes that Gollum says, “Don’t kill us,’ he wept. ‘Don’t hurt us with nassty cruel steel! Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We’re lost. And when Precious goes we’ll die, yes, die into the dust.’ He clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers. ‘Dusst!’ he hissed.” Apart from the psychological toll of having his addiction taken beyond where he can reach it, he seems to understand that his survival only lasts as long as the Ring. He literally can’t live without it, which adds another incentive for him to make a last-ditch effort to get it back from Frodo. Yes, Frodo cursed him to fall into the Cracks of Doom if he touched Frodo again, but if he’s going to die anyway…. And Gollum doesn’t have much concept of unselfishness that would allow him to accept sacrificing himself for the sake of a promise.

@meganofsherwood3665 23 күн бұрын

Honestly...when you think how fast the decades caught up with Bilbo... dying in the fires of Mount Doom was probably a better way to go, compared to what Gollum would have experienced

@Weiyinglou 23 күн бұрын

I think Eru Illuvitar shoved Gollum at the end.

@thebatmary5954 23 күн бұрын

@Weiyinglou, it could be both.

@umadbroimatroll7918 23 күн бұрын

Rankin bass return of the king did this scene very faithfully with the exact same dialogue

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

@@meganofsherwood3665 Yes. High speed, time-lapsed death.

@joespeigle1240 23 күн бұрын

I also believe that Bilbo was less affected because he didn't obsess over the ring as constantly like Gollum did. Picture 2 alcoholics, one that has a few shots scattered throughout the day, while the other is Nicholas Cage from Leaving Las Vegas

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

The Precious was Gollum's goddess. That was a 24/7 obsession for sure.👍😁

@thegatorhator6822 12 күн бұрын

I mean, you're not wrong. The daily drinking alcoholic has withdrawals when he quits. The once a week binge drinking alcoholic does not (I was one for 8 years and when I quit I didn't have withdrawals like some of my friends did who weren't even alcoholics as long, they just had the bug worse than me and were drinking from wake up to sleepy time, not getting absolutely smashed once every 7 - 8 days to self-medicate their depression)

@scottjackson3446 20 күн бұрын

Gollum’s raw fish-based diet provides both high protein and omega-3 fatty acids. This explains his long lifespan, long health-span and perfect skin complexion!

@sursomsatan1225 5 күн бұрын

There it is, the actual reason

@Batkoku 23 күн бұрын

Bilbo didn't really age until the ring was destroyed, something they skipped around in the movies.

@TheMinskyTerrorist 22 күн бұрын

That's what the video says

@mariogallao 22 күн бұрын

@@TheMinskyTerrorist Yes, but this comment doesn't take 10 minutes to read.

@TheMinskyTerrorist 22 күн бұрын

@@mariogallao There are also other details in the video. I'm sure you knew that though.

@nathynorthy6916 22 күн бұрын

Bilbo does age a bit - he's sleepier, more sedentary and more forgetful when Frodo first encounters him at Rivendell. As though he was older and just wanted to retire there and hang up his walking boots. But he is still not as old as he should be - he only becomes his actual age once the Ring is destroyed.

@DavidVerbout 21 күн бұрын

@mariogallao I agree. These videos, while interesting, could easily but edited in half.

@Lone_Wolf_LT 23 күн бұрын

Listening to you tell the story with all the different voices and drawings makes me go back to the feeling of wonder I had listening to stories as a child.

@Nikolas_Davis 21 күн бұрын

This also explains neatly the way the Nazgul were destroyed (in the films, at least) after the One was destroyed. The One was the linchpin holding their existence together (since it controls the lesser rings). I don't even want to _imagine_ what it feels like to be a thousands-year-old lich, then have your phylactery destroyed and all those centuries catch up with you in an instant, yeesh 😱The Witch-king of Angmar had it easy...

@ElladanKenet 23 күн бұрын

I'm envisioning frodo casually dropping the ring into the fire, Gollum standing there and watching. Soon as the ring melts, Gollum just turns into a poof of ash and bone.

@fliw7114 23 күн бұрын

*Looks down in sadness* 'Aww nutssss' *poof*

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Yes. A kind of Saruman ending.

@erichd9460 18 күн бұрын

“Scheiße, precioussss” *sad “gollum” noise* poof

@papalaz4444244 16 күн бұрын

how awful if Gollum turned into a poof :(

@Enerdhil 16 күн бұрын

@@papalaz4444244 🌬️

@adpirtle 23 күн бұрын

I have always assumed neither Bilbo nor Gollum aged significantly after losing possession of the ring because of the hold it still had over both of them, but the film's different interpretation didn't really bother me, because the ring clearly had a much greater hold over Gollum than it ever did over Bilbo.

@silentecho92able 15 күн бұрын

That much is true granted Gollum had the ring for 500 years. Compared to Bilbos 60 years. With Gollums isolation mix with the ring made the ring be more attached to gollum then Bilbo.

@endsinurple3144 6 күн бұрын

@@silentecho92able Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Gollum had the ring much longer than Bilbo, way more time for it to corrupt and twist him into the crazed and pitiful creature he became.

@silentecho92able 6 күн бұрын

@@endsinurple3144 Also the reason Bilbo aged quickly the next time Frodo see's him is Bilbo has been living In Rivendell for some time an he had people he cares about keeping his sanity in check. Think of it as a drug addiction treatment, Bilbo's mind is preoccupied by other things living there with Elrond. So he is able to purge the Rings influence, in his system. While Gollum is simply having some major withdrawals. An his mind is one set on getting the ring back at all cost. This is evidence in Frodo and Sam's journey if sam had not been there to anchor Frodo down to reality he would have lost his mind within a week alone with the Ring.

@pendragon2012 23 күн бұрын

Interesting. I had never given the issue much thought before but your thoughts make a lot of sense. And it fits with Tolkien's overarching belief. Also of note of course that Bilbo after giving up the Ring spent seventeen years, or the bulk of it, in Rivendell, a healthy, open air kind of place, where Gollum spent it lurking in underground lakes among the mountains. The Ring prolonged their lives but the look of them was probably due to the environment.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

There are more factors involved in making Gollum look like he did besides lurking in a subterranean lake for 500 years. (1) He was evil, having killed his best friend. (2) He was totally under the power of his Precious. (3) He ate mostly fish and Orcs (4) He was suffering from schizophrenia (5) He was tortured by Sauron (6) He hated the sun and stayed out of its light.

@sectureverothoughtcriminal7734 23 күн бұрын

Also Sauron had poured his own power (Maiar) into the forging of the ring. Golem had given into the influence of the ring, and probably wore it often while living under ground amongst the goblins. so he "absorbed" more of it?

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

@@sectureverothoughtcriminal7734 I doubt Gollum wore his Precious very often. I think only when he was fishing or hunting Orcs.

@sectureverothoughtcriminal7734 23 күн бұрын

@@Enerdhil But he was down there a long time

@Enerdhil 22 күн бұрын

@@sectureverothoughtcriminal7734 Yes 500 years of creepy love songs to his Precious.😣

@blueshit199 23 күн бұрын

My assumption is that he was in possession of the One Ring for so long that he got overloaded with longevity such that even 60 years later he still had some spare years left

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Do you mean Bilbo or Gollum?🧐

@blueshit199 23 күн бұрын

@@Enerdhil I mean Gollum, Bilbo had a fresh supply of divine power from the ring in those 60 years

@gmmg8734 22 күн бұрын

The Ring seems to literally be like a magical corrupting drug. At first it makes the user more powerful and gifted but in time, even if it takes 100's of years, it eventually makes you more and more sickly and slavish until you're a wraith. One of worst parts of the Ring is that power and charm it bestows to the user seems to never become forgotten. Whoever has wielded it can't forget it's power, and they have a small (or very large in the case of Gollum) lust and yearning for it. It's only when it's destroyed does the psychological grip finally leave the Ringbearers. It wouldn't surprise me if Bilbo felt a huge weight lifted off his spirit at the time of the Ring's destruction, even though there was yet no news that it had been destroyed.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

The Ring has powers that extend beyond its proximity. I think just as Sauron held power over rhe Nazgul, who did not wear their Rings. The Ring itself hrld some kind of power of those who bore it, whether in their possession or not. Sauron accessed power frim the Ring because it still existed, so why can't Gollum and Bilbo receive that same power by extension? It seems to me that the easiest explanation to believe is that Gollum and Bilbo and Frodo all lost their "youth" when the Ring was destroyed and their hröar changed to look like their actual age. I think Rivendale and Lothlorien also became diminished as soon as the Ring was destroyed.

@TheGeekMonster 23 күн бұрын

I really love how you use the works of so many artists in your videos! I am delighted not only by the tales you tell, but by the amazing art we get to see along the way!

@charlesjmouse 23 күн бұрын

Thanks for that. Influenced by the films I have to admit my thinking was primarily that Bilbo and Frodo came by the ring without evil, and at least in Bilbo's case gave it up freely. Therefore it held no lasting effect on them. But that's not what the books say at all. Bilbo didn't physically age until the ring was destroyed and Frodo hadn't possessed it long enough to change markedly after it was gone.* *Gollum knew this, as can be seen by his comments on Mt Doom. Being so far past the natural lifespan of a Hobbit, no doubt if he hadn't gone in to the fire with the ring he would have crumbled to dust on the spot.

@MythicTales993 22 күн бұрын

I've never heard this story told so vividly before. Thank you for bringing it to life!

@dmckenzie9281 23 күн бұрын

Before I watch I will speculate that it is because Smeagol possessed the ring much longer and perhaps used it much more than Bilbo did.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

I don't think possessing the One Ring for a long period of time would have any benefit to one's longevity. It makes more sense that Gollum would have come crashing down to a skeletal pile in the same way that Barad-dür came crashing down to a pile of rubble.

@jasperl180 23 күн бұрын

Gollum had the ring for 500 years. If bilbo had it for the same amount of time he would have endured the same

@Tahkaullus01 23 күн бұрын

Possibly. But Bilbo did not intentionally seek the Ring out. Smeagol killed for it and I can't help but wonder if that played a hand in it. I don't doubt Bilbo might have eventually become this malformed creature, but I wonder if it wouldn't take a lot longer for him.

@jasperl180 23 күн бұрын

@@Tahkaullus01 yes i agree. But he almost couldn’t handle himself when Frodo had it at Rivendell. So eventually he may become gollum like. Maybe 750 years later perhaps.

@istari0 23 күн бұрын

@@Tahkaullus01 That's basically what Gandalf said. Because Bilbo did not acquire the Ring through malicious means, he wasn't affected by it as much.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

@@Tahkaullus01 Are you saying longevity gained by malevolence is different from that gained by happenstance?🤔 I am not sure it should make a difference in the length of life, but it would impact the quality of life, me thinks.

@kyley9768 23 күн бұрын

I’m finally early on one of your releases. I have to say I LOVE your channel I have recommended you to several friends. Thank you for the great content keep it up!!!

@kevinmoore4845 23 күн бұрын

Well done and thought out. I never questioned Gollum's non-aging before.

@keeparizonawild156 22 күн бұрын

I’ve been waiting for this topic to be covered for a long time. Thank you.

@Chimpmanboom 21 күн бұрын

Bilbo gave up the ring willingly. The hunger still fueled gollum.

@MrEmiosk 17 күн бұрын

Willing, is doubtful. He was coerced more than convinced to give the ring up. As Bilbo is shown to constantly crave it still. While it took Boromir's infatuation with the idea of the ring, and Gollum/Smeagol's pitiful affections to turn Frodo to covet the ring at the end.

@silentecho92able 15 күн бұрын

@@MrEmiosk Chances are Bilbo would have become Gollum 2.0 if Frodo had not taken the ring far from him.

@MrEmiosk 15 күн бұрын

@@silentecho92able you mean Gandalf.

@Glimmlampe1982 9 күн бұрын

@@MrEmioskit was willing, he just wasn't strong enough to do it himself. Like a drug addict who also needs help to let go, and who still has to resist to fall back

@colinbaldwin313 23 күн бұрын

Damn. It almost makes me glad that Gollum never fulfilled Frodo's hopes by redeeming himself. Frodo would have been so happy for the wretched old Hobbit, only for Gollum to die and turn to dust right after the One was destroyed.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

In the case of redemption, I think Eru would have returned Gollum's physical state back to pre-Ring days and maybe his buddy Dëagol would be reembodied too.😁👍

@colinbaldwin313 23 күн бұрын

@@Enerdhil That sounds wishful. Has something equivalent ever happened in Middle-Earth before?

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

@@colinbaldwin313 Gollum never gave us a chance to see what would have happened if he had had 180° change of character. I just think that in such a "what-if," Eru Iluvatar would find a way to make that redemption meaningful. Maybe the redeemed Gollum wrestles the Ring from Frodo and falls into the fiery lava. He died a hero. 😁👍✝️

@joannakeenan3355 22 күн бұрын

Hobbits being, according to Tolkien, a variety of Men, a redeemed Gollum who promptly died when the ring was destroyed would have left the circles of the world, as would the actual Gollum who fell in to the lava. One could speculate that a redeemed version would have found his destination pleasant.

@colinbaldwin313 22 күн бұрын

@@joannakeenan3355 I hope that even the unredeemed Gollum winds up in a pleasant enough place, after the misery that was his life.

@Edgarbopp 23 күн бұрын

I hadn’t thought that hard about this before. This was interesting and insightful.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Probably because you didn't need to think about it before.😅

@sarahmacdonald1647 20 күн бұрын

Yes, Bilbo looked quite happy, too (9-year-old me), when he launched himself at Frodo.

@AndrewCarlisle11B 7 күн бұрын

Well explained and presented. Great job, Matt!

@101Waylander 23 күн бұрын

This is the best LotR channel. Love your content, thank you for sharing.

@thomasbrooks3572 23 күн бұрын

This moc is fantastic, love the idea of single episode projects!

@DblTap317 23 күн бұрын

Its no wonder people were so formal with things back then it could be 20, 30, 50 years before you see a friend again LoL

@ami_sunshine_dog 23 күн бұрын

Bilbo possessed the ring, but the ring never stopped possessing Gollum

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Great point!😁👍

@wilhelmschmidt7240 15 күн бұрын

Yeah I think that's a big part of it. Bilbo was never fully corrupted.

@graspingoil 22 күн бұрын

Great analysis with strong logic and consistency, sir

@codename495 9 күн бұрын

Gollum gave himself body and soul to the ring. He conflated the ring and himself in his mind as ONE being. Imagine someone taking a leg from you suddenly and without your permission, does it stop being any less part of you? The ring was Gollums heart, and he never stopped longing for it back. Poor wretched addict that he was.

@marcognudi664 23 күн бұрын

Rivendell has the effect of preservation due to Elrond's ring no? When Bilbo is in Rivendell for 17 years couldn't that slow his aging in conjunction with the lingering effects of the one ring? Why is this not considered

@philipmeisterl 23 күн бұрын

Because gollum was never there

@WelcomeBackMeHere 2 күн бұрын

To give Peter Jackson's interpretation of events some credence, you can kind of see how it also makes sense though. As was alluded to in the video, Bilbo gave up the ring (mostly) willingly. You could argue the film version looks at that as the ring losing any hold over Bilbo, including, the age preventing effect that the ring has. So while the ring wasn't destroyed yet, in that version, it already stopped affecting him.

@SuStel 18 күн бұрын

Bilbo's rapid aging when he gives up the Ring is a movie-only thing. Gollum DOES age (normally) in the book, and it IS remarked upon.

@STMukr 23 күн бұрын

This is good video. God bless you mate❤

@shokmusic_AC 23 күн бұрын

Great post!

@nathynorthy6916 22 күн бұрын

I don't agree with the idea that Bilbo hadn't aged significantly in the 17 years following giving up the Ring. He is certainly sleepier and more forgetful when Frodo first sees him in Rivendell - and he admits to feeling old and having given up travelling. That sounds like a much older hobbit than the one at his birthday party. Also, this idea that he wasn't travelling because Gandalf and Elrond told him not to... well, Gandalf only discovered the identity of the Ring a few months prior to this conversation, so it wouldn't make any sense for Gandalf to have warned him about the Enemy before this. I'm guessing that they told him that much later on during his sojourn at Rivendell - and only because he was too old to do much travelling anyway. Indeed, Bilbo is much more sleepy, more forgetful and more sedentary when Frodo meets him on his way back to The Shire, but he had already shown signs of all that at their previous meeting. At this first meeting, the effects of the Ring had been slowly weakening for 17 years, but at the second, the Ring had been destroyed along with most of its influence. But the Ring's destruction had still left wounds on both Bilbo and Frodo's psyches that couldn't be cured in Middle-earth. As for Gollum, the book in fact says that he did suddenly feel old once he had lost the Ring, but he also felt better - and the fresh air and better food he was getting outside of his mountain lair also improved his general fitness. I don't think the manner in which he received the Ring had anything to do with the less marked effect in terms of aging of being without the Ring. How could it? I don't see any reason why it should. Maybe Bilbo's act of pity towards Gollum made it harder for the Ring to corrupt him and easier for him to give it up - but I don't see why this should also alter the life-preservation powers of the Ring. It's just pure speculation to suggest that it would. It was just that Gollum had had the Ring for far far longer than Bilbo, so its impact upon Golluim's lifespan was much more profound. Bilbo was still within the maximum hobbit lifespan when the Ring was destroyed - but Gollum had had the Ring for at least FOUR hobbit lifespans when he lost it and was more than FIVE TIMES the hobbit life expectancy when it was destroyed.

@LordDaret 13 күн бұрын

I think the ring had altered Golum’s physiology after being in his hands for so long. The ring initially slows down your death, but since there is only so much life in a body it has to find a substitute to refuel it. This would all be bound by the command of the ring, but if the ring was destroyed (like it was) or if the original magic was left alone for too long, I imagine it would grow unstable and eventually just make poor Golum’s body turn to dust.

@nathynorthy6916 13 күн бұрын

@@LordDaret I think we are left trying to explain why Gollum was still alive and very obviously kicking after being without the Ring for almost 80 years - and it's difficult to come to a definitive conclusion about this, because Tolkien left the details of the precise effects of the Ring a bit vague. Using my head-canon to fill in the gaps, I'd have to guess that Gollum had had the Ring for many lifetimes of his own kind, and so the effect of it on him was so profound that he could have lived for maybe hundreds of years after losing it. I think he wouldn't have turned into a wraith if permanently deprived of the thing - and nor would Bilbo. And they both would have died eventually (and Bilbo much sooner for possessing it for a much shorter timespan), but they would both have longed all that time for the Ring. The aging process had clearly restarted in both after their possession of the Ring ended, but it was also still proceeding at a much slower pace than normal. But it was definitely happening to both of them, indicating that their mortality had been restored.

@LordDaret 12 күн бұрын

@@nathynorthy6916 sadly I lack the research on Tolkiens written work so my answers come more from theory and the movies rather than a good understanding of the books. I agree with you that those two wouldn’t have become wraiths, but I suspect the outcomes simply depends on what the ring wants rather than a consistent outcome. The reason why Golum is still alive, despite lacking the ring, is because the ring modified his body in a way that wasn’t being powered by the ring itself, but simply sealed by the ring. We know that the ring had some… long range effects… like keeping Sauron alive and still providing limited power to him remotely. knowing that Maiar had a limited ability to speak words into existence (from secondhand knowledge), one could assume that shoving the entire power of one into a item and giving it sentience should produce similar effects. The only question is how the speaker interprets the information…

@AlyssMa7rin 12 күн бұрын

I think it's because Bilbo acquired the ring, and Gollum CLAIMED the ring. The Former was not bound by the ring, though it was beginning to ensnare him The other was utterly claimed by the ring.

@LordDaret 6 күн бұрын

@@AlyssMa7rin I suspect the ring was baiting Bilbo into traveling around. Plus it would be pretty bad if he started looking decrepit as he wandered, otherwise someone might realize it was a ring of power…

@Konuvis 13 күн бұрын

Loving the art and storytelling!

@Paulafan5 22 күн бұрын

The films were 100% correct in doing it the way they did. It became more cinematic. Imagine Frodo getting the Ring, and then nothing happens for 17 years in the film. The tension built up over the Ring in the movie would have been lessened. It works in the book but film is a different media and you need some sense of urgency to push the narrative along.

@Beregorn88 21 күн бұрын

Bilbo smoked weed a couple of years, then went to rehab followed by the best healers of middle earth. Gollum has been a crackhead for all his life, then went in forced withdrawal for a couple of months

@johnlynch-kv8mz 22 күн бұрын

1:16. Wow! That’s a long habit!! Imagine his kick?

@Sseifert15 11 күн бұрын

This was really good! Thanks

@iraelliott8936 23 күн бұрын

I have always wondered if Bilbo would have lived the extra years that he had the ring

@JessWLStuart 23 күн бұрын

It seems to me that after the last great foe of the elder days was vanquished everyone touched by great Elven magic (except Aragorn and Arwen) had to leave Middle Earth - even Sam, who only held onto the One Ring for less than a day. That's why Sam had to leave for the Blessed Realm.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Sam never had to leave Middle Earth for the Undying Lands. He did it out of love for Frodo and because he had a place on a ship set aside for him. He could have stayed in the Shire.

@fueledbylove 23 күн бұрын

Samwise didn't have to go, but because he was a Ring-Bearer the Valar offered him a boon to come to Tol Eressa and spend his last days there. He chose to go after his wife passed away. One would assume Frodo would still be alive then but if not Gandalf and the Elves of the fellowship would be there to greet him.

@amasterofone 23 күн бұрын

I was literally just wondering this yesterday

@TheBabyCaleb 22 күн бұрын

If your ever looking for what if ideas I think a “what if Sauron defeated the last alliance” could be neat! Unless the outcome would be the same if Sauron got the one ring. Or a “what if the Valar got involved in the war of the ring”

@xina968 23 күн бұрын

Love your videos ❤

@nickynak3 22 күн бұрын

This is very similar to a recent TTT Mailbag Monday! Nice to know you're on the same page on this question.

@NerdoftheRings 22 күн бұрын

That's funny. haha. Good to know Alan and I are on the same page!

@DeusExDraconian 6 күн бұрын

One detail I enjoyed from the film, is that as Gollum plummets into the lava of mount doom and is consumed by it, he never gives up the ring even in his dying moment. So too does the One Ring float on the surface of the lava and is not destroyed by it. It is only when Frodo agrees to take Sam's hand and be rescued does the ring itself destroyed. It wasn't the physical act of tossing the ring into the fires of Mount Doom itself that ends the One Ring, but the willingness to relinquish it. I think if Frodo had decided to drop to his death as Gollum had, the Ring would not have been destroyed in the fires and likely have floated there until it could be recovered.

@milknegan7659 23 күн бұрын

Gollum doesn't exactly look like a spring chicken

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

True. He doesn't have a beak.😜

@milknegan7659 20 күн бұрын

@@Enerdhil lol

@mon_moi 23 күн бұрын

Unrelated but I still find it funny that two of your top Patreon supporters are named Tom Bombadil and the Mighty Mim

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Mîm had a short shelf life.😂

@frederikmaertens1231 20 күн бұрын

Now with the part of Sauron holding the Nazgul Rings, I'm wondering if anyone getting hold of those rings could controll them. or if it indeed has more to do with the link to the One Ring.

@JohnSmith-rw2yn 23 күн бұрын

I'd like to think that Gollum, just before he was captured by the pool, was starting to find himself, really starting to come around, feel for him 😅

@Donathon-qx8kq 23 күн бұрын

IDK John.... I'm afraid Gollum was beyond redemption... after all he had killed...so I wonder what he was like before he ' found ' The Ring

@Chow0012 23 күн бұрын

@@Donathon-qx8kq He wasn't a nice hobbit, his own family kicked him out the family home

@Donathon-qx8kq 23 күн бұрын

@@Chow0012 I know.... kinda what I think also.... he killed his cousin (?).... before he even wore the ring.... makes you wonder just how evil the Ring wraiths were in life... Peace

@JohnSmith-rw2yn 23 күн бұрын

@@Donathon-qx8kq Maybe it was more from a movie portrayal, see emotions on the screen which I didn't feel across the book, but yes maybe he was beyond many hundreds of years ago, at least he died with his precious 😅

@Donathon-qx8kq 23 күн бұрын

@@JohnSmith-rw2yn honestly.... one could ask for worse

@kirandeepchakraborty7921 20 күн бұрын

Very interesting insights ✨

@robinriebsomer4607 22 күн бұрын

It seems to me that if Gollum had survived he would have perished immediately like the Nazgul did when the ring was destroyed since it was in his possession for centuries.

@phoenixmilburn6598 Күн бұрын

Bilbo's goal between The End of the Hobbit and when he leaves middle earth is literally to get older than the Old Tuke 😅🤣😂

@kennethlacewell1517 9 күн бұрын

I remember in the books talk of Gollum actually getting better, relatively. He left the mountain, braved the sun and the moon, ate better food. Yes, he was driven by hate and desire, but before he lost the ring, he never would have left the mountain.

@jiddro33 23 күн бұрын

Is it certain the Nazgul did not wear their rings? I always assumed they did because there seemed to be no reason for them not to. That Sauron had gathered the nine rings to himself, and "held" them could be just figuratively speaking, as the Nazgul served him unquestioningly.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Here is Letter #246, on about the 6th page: "Not wholly. I do not think they (the Ringwraiths) could have attacked him (Frodo) with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by {Sauron, who still through their nine Rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.}" That last part is very clear that Sauron literally held the Nine Rings of Power. Why else would Tolkien even write those words "which he held," if he didn't physically hold them? That phrase between the parentheses is for clarification and additional information.

@jiddro33 22 күн бұрын

@@Enerdhil "held" can also mean "controlled". But I agree that it sounds like he had the rings himself. I wonder why though.

@Enerdhil 22 күн бұрын

@@jiddro33 Actually, I used to believe the Ringwraiths wore their Nine Rings. There is a quote by Gandalf at The Council of Elrond where he says, "the Nine [Rings] the Nazgul keep." Steven Gibbs who used to be known as The Red Book did a fantastic video where he explained that Sauron actually held the Rings. The quote from the Letter is important because that was written by Tolkien after Lord of the Rings was published. Therefore it was Tolkien's last word on that issue. As for why Sauron had to hold those Rings, that is another question for another video.😅

@Enerdhil 22 күн бұрын

@@jiddro33 Also if "held" can mean "controlled," why are both words used in proximity to each other and in the same sentence?🧐

@affinityforanime 8 күн бұрын

I am curious as to the meaning of mortals Bilbo and Frodo going to the Undying Lands. Certainly, this was meant as a reward and time of healing for them after bearing such evil as the One Ring. But how does this play into the reward of Eru where men are gifted another fate after death? Does a mortal going to the Undying Lands then become immortal? Or do they simply live out their natural mortal lifespan in the enchanted paradise?

@JGComments 12 күн бұрын

Great video. Have been an LOTR fan for decades and never considered this.

@Max88188 23 күн бұрын

Because he had a part still yet to play

@lmr4403 23 күн бұрын

If I remember correctly: the Nazgul still have claim over their rings (and vice versa), but possibly the rings being physically held by Sauron. When being stated by Tolkien that Sauron held the Nine, that can be understood in two ways: 1) He held them physically, they were gathered to Sauron. 2) Sauron held the Rings under his control through his will. The Nazgûl still wore them, but the Rings were controlled by Sauron.

@usotsuki5 23 күн бұрын

It was usually my interpretation that they still wore them... thought thinking about that more now, they were not found (or even searched for) after the wraiths were discorporated / unhorsed at the Ford of Bruinen, nor after the Witch-King was slain by Eowyn & Merry on the Fields of Gondor. In retrospect, it seems odd that Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn and others would have neglected the Nine Rings' whereabouts unless they were fairly sure they were under Sauron's physical control. They care about the locations and activities of the Nine Riders, but not their Nine Rings - even when they have reason to guess they might be separated...

@lmr4403 23 күн бұрын

@@usotsuki5 There is a subtle difference in mastering/dominating, claiming ownership and just wearing a ring of power. In my interpretation, Sauron mastered/dominated the 9 rings and probably physically held the 9 (by reasoning of absense of mentioning after the Witch-king died), but the Nazgul definitely in some form were still the owners of their rings. Just like Frodo, throughout his journey he held the ring but never claimed the ring until Mount Doom and clearly he never mastered the ring. Similarly Isildur also held the ring, but was unable to bend the ring to his will.

@DamonNomad82 23 күн бұрын

At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf said that the Nazgûl "kept" the Nine Rings, ("the Nine the Nazgûl keep") which led me to always interpret the meaning of Sauron "holding" the Nine Rings as being option 2, that they still wore their rings. As far as individuals searching for the rings after the Nazgûl were defeated, I would assume that those searching for signs of them after they were overwhelmed by the magic of the Ford of Bruinen would also have searched for the rings, but not found any due to the fact that the Nazgûl themselves were not slain, only deprived of their steeds and the cloaks they wore to make themselves visible in the physical world. Thus they would still have carried their rings with them as they slowly made their way back to Mordor from the ford. In the case of the Witch King, I expect that his ring was indeed left behind on the battlefield with his empty armor after he was slain by Eowyn. In that instance, the reason no mention was made of a search for and possible recovery of his ring was due to the fact that only a handful of individuals would have known about his ring and these individuals (Gandalf, Aragorn and the other members of the Fellowship who were present in Minas Tirith at the time) had far more pressing matters to attend to, such as preparing to march out and attack the Black Gate to draw Sauron's attention away from Mt. Doom. I do think it could make for an interesting fanfiction if some random Rohirric or Gondorian soldier found the Witch King's ring of power. It would have quickly lost its power, though, as the Ring was destroyed only a few days later.

@lmr4403 23 күн бұрын

@@DamonNomad82 But given that Gandalf even calls the lesser rings dangerous for mortals, he definitely would be wary/aware if Witch King's ring was on the battleground next to King Théoden and a gigantic Hell Hawk.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Come on! Tolkien never minced words. He was a contributor to the Oxford Dictionary. He put a lot of thought into what he wrote and that includes his essays and Letters. Sauron absolutely had possession of all of the nine Rings of Power that controlled the Nazgul.

@adrianatkins10 17 күн бұрын

I feel like Bilbo had a tragic story. He just wanted to see the world and yet got pulled in to a war between god like beings which damaged his soul permanently

@HelenWild 22 күн бұрын

An interesting take which makes a lot of sense. Btw, what is the music in the background? It sounds Shore-like, very elegiac.

@Enjay001 13 күн бұрын

The destruction of the one ring must have been quite a thing from Bilbo's perspective. If, once the ring was gone, he was experiencing the ageing of years over the space of a few months, he must have felt the effects of age arriving far more rapidly than most individuals do - even if he didn't notice any other clues that the ring was destroyed. (I don't recall of he experienced any feeling of loss or other "psychic"/psychological impression of the ring's destruction.) Almost immediately, he must have felt the twinges of age creeping upon him much more rapidly than they had done to that point. I guess that would have been bittersweet for him.

@rachelwilliams8017 13 күн бұрын

I had always thought going to blessed realm would make them live forever and be content with that life, that they would be forever happy there.

@nerufer 17 күн бұрын

Talking about the movie adaptation: It is said that the ring has consumed gollum. He cannot live with or without it. In a way it has become a part of him, so it makes sense that it would grant gollum unnatural long life as long as the ring exists in the world (so even if it is not close to gollum. Besides, gollum doesn't really wear the ring, but he has it close and not even on him). Bilbo and Frodo were not yet consumed by the ring (well maybe Frodo at the very end?) so to me it makes sense that they would go on and age again after "willingly" passing the ring on to others. (the ring ultimately hasn;t been able to break their free will).

@jerryrehard7711 13 күн бұрын

In the books 17 years go by between the time that Bilbo gives Frodo the ring and leaves the Shire and their reunion in Rivendell. It says nothing about Bilbo looking older. Only after the ring is destroyed does Bilbo's true age seem to quickly catch up with him. The obvious explanation would be that ring either arrest or greatly slows down the aging process while in an individual's possession. Once they lose possession of it the aging process continues at its natural rate from that point. It is only after its destruction and all that was wrought with it unmade that the individual reverts to their true age. The statements about Bilbo looking and feeling stretched thin were in regard to the slow process of being turned into a wraith. The ultimate fate of any owner eventually.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Before I watch this, I will guess that Bilbo only aged after the Ring was destroyed.

@phoule76 15 күн бұрын

your Arwen voice stirs me

@owenb8636 4 күн бұрын

Also death is described as the gift of the One to men. Gollum's lack of physical ageing might be the withholding of the gift by Eru in punishment for his wickedness

@thenoremac2685 20 күн бұрын

I believe the main difference between Bilbo and Gollum is that Bilbo gave up the Ring willingly. He severed that connection, but Gollum... never let go. Smeagol still possessed it in his heart.

@showmanshipgaming1326 16 күн бұрын

I like the spiritual idea; that because Bilbo was able to give the Ring up willingly, it's effects on him lessened. But in Gollum's mind the Ring was always his

@mwallrabenstein5215 23 күн бұрын

What if the rings worked as Sauron had intended? In the end Mairon's demise was predetermined, but I like the approach still.

@estrangeibanez3051 23 күн бұрын

I don't know about not aging but Smeagol looked way beyond aged to me 😂

@Eowyn3Pride 23 күн бұрын

Food for thought this one!🤔 I had a friend ask me "why don't the Nazgul speak or communicate? Why or how does Smaug communicate?" I also wrote a dissertation and gave a lecture on the spot!😂 🧝‍♂️🧝‍♀️🧙‍♂️🥔🥓🍻😁

@warlockofwordschannel7901 23 күн бұрын

The Nazgul do communicate briefly with those they consider worthy of their breath. Gandalf, some of the Shire hobbits, etc.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

I don't think the Nazgul used telepathy to communicate with the Gaffer back when Frodo and his friends were getting ready to leave the Shire. He must have had a speaking voice. Also the Witch King spoke to Ëowyn.

@CalebMay-bf1ci 23 күн бұрын

Smaug can speak Westron

@SkinnyEatWorld95 23 күн бұрын

Interesting 🤔

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

@@CalebMay-bf1ci He also speaks Dragonese.🤪

@SalvationDiscipleshipAreNotThe 13 күн бұрын

I never really stopped to think about it before, but it makes sense that Gollum would basically cease aging for a good long while since he possessed the ring for way longer than either Bilbo or Frodo. Thanks for the video. :)

@arnulfojrgasca5558 23 күн бұрын

The thing I've always wondered about Gollum is why he never put the ring on? At least in the movies he never did.

@royalecrafts6252 22 күн бұрын

He knows the wraiths and other dark creatures will sense him if he does it

@arnulfojrgasca5558 22 күн бұрын

That could be it, but frodo knew the consequences of putting on the ring but he still could not resist the precious.

@Eagle-eye-pie 22 күн бұрын

@@royalecrafts6252in the hobbit, the wraiths weren’t abroad, so this wouldn’t have been a problem.

@arnulfojrgasca5558 21 күн бұрын

@@Eagle-eye-pie Thank you! I'm not a LOTR expert but maybe that's why the ring affected Gollum differently. Both Bilbo and Frodo both actively used the ring as opposed to Gollum.

@mechengineer4life 8 сағат бұрын

But Gollum never relinquished it, he lost it. This might be the big reason. Bilbo giving it voluntarily then also released the tide of death that was being held back by the snare of the ring.

@rickdesper 21 күн бұрын

Certainly in the books, the transition from young Smeagol to old Gollum entailed a lot of aging. The movies dialed this back, making young Smeagol look a lot more than Gollum than I think Tolkien intended. Smeagol was supposed to be very hobbit-like.

@aaronreeve1414 2 күн бұрын

Maybe not just how the Ring is acquired, but also the bearer’s pre-existing temperament? The books establish Sméagol as a sneak and generally unpleasant sort even before acquiring the Ring. Frodo and Bilbo are both good-natured. Perhaps it has different effects on those with more inherent evil?

@Parlimant_Strifey 15 күн бұрын

Sam also carried the ring bearer, he should also count. He is as worthy as an elevator, an elevator that carries a great & mighty hammer.

@austingoranson6116 4 күн бұрын

I feel like part of it would be that Bilbo was willing to give up the ring and forfeit its power, whereas Sméagol/Gollum couldn’t

@enzosotheraccount 23 күн бұрын

What does he mean when he says that he's "passed the old Took"

@DamonNomad82 23 күн бұрын

The "Old Took" was Bilbo's maternal grandfather, Gerontius Took, who was famous among hobbits for reaching the age of 130, which was the longest recorded lifespan for a hobbit up to that time. When Bilbo reached the age of 131 shortly before he sailed to Valinor with Frodo, Gandalf, and the others, he "passed" the Old Took's record for longevity.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Age. He had one more birthday than The Old Took.

@samlivingston4130 22 күн бұрын

Gollum began his possession of the Ring with an act of Evil, the killing of Deagol. And then he took to theiving and spying in his community before he was expelled by his grandmother. Bilbo began his possession of the Ring with an act of Mercy, sparing Gollum. Then he only used the Ring to help the Quest of Erebor.

@melkhiordarkfell4354 20 күн бұрын

It still bugs me that sailing to the West only seems to bring elves to Tol Eressea and not all the way to Valinor. A line in Unfinished Tales, Galadriel rejects the pardon and says "Why should I live in Eressea, one who once called Valinor home". It just doesn't seem like they shouldn't have just as much right to go anywhere in Aman they want.

@thefixinman777 23 күн бұрын

Golem aged like the cracked head down the street lol

@bighand1530 23 күн бұрын

What a description

@RGBJR 23 күн бұрын

That's what I call the crak hed down the street...Smeagol

@ryanmcwilliams8784 23 күн бұрын

If that ain’t the truth. The old lady that lives next door is a crackhead and she’ll never die. Idk how she does it. Super nice lady never had any issues and she keeps to herself and keeps her place clean. Shoutout to Lisa the world’s oldest most functional crackhead.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Yep. In another ten years, Hunter Biden will look like Gollum.

@universalflamethrower6342 23 күн бұрын

@@bighand1530 he i s kinda right though

@PeaceLoveHonor 12 күн бұрын

I always wondered why, if Smeagol was a Hobbit, he wanted the ring as his birthday present- when hobbits supposedly *give* presents on their birthday.

@KipIngram 9 күн бұрын

The difference seems obvious to me. Bilbo willingly put the Ring down and walked away, with no intent to ever reacquire it. He successfully separated himself from it. Gollum never did - the Ring still worked an influence on him in spite of him not having it in his physical possession.

@julianinaction96 23 күн бұрын

Thank you for taking us to Middle Earth, Matt ❤

@menwwtheories3002 20 күн бұрын

The key here is how they acquired the ring- Gollum by killing, Bilbo by mercy and pity.

@valentinkambushev4968 23 күн бұрын

Remember kids: be nice and merciful, and you won't turn into a fantasy crackhead.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Hunter Biden will be happy to hear that.

@Lunalover95 20 күн бұрын

I just finished watching the LOTR Extended in theaters…… It was so much fun! 😊

@fueledbylove 23 күн бұрын

The real question is how did Gollum live for hundreds of years, using the ring frequently (and mostly for Evil purposes) then not become a Wraith and become permanently invisible and lost to the shadow world? Read HOME vol. VI Return of the Shadow as this was Tolkien's very own explanation of the effects a Ring of Power has on the wearer. Granted these were from his first drafts of a "sequel to The Hobbit" penned in 1938, but isn't that exactly what happened to the wicked Men who had the Nine and became the Ring-Wraiths. I have often thought about Gollum's seeming immunity to the Ring's power in this respect that after nearly 500 years his corporal body is intact (tho' worse for wear) when he should have become a Wraith himself.

@Enerdhil 23 күн бұрын

Are you referring to this passage in The Return of the Shadow, Of Gollum and the Ring?: 'Still, Gollum must have been, or be, very much older than the oldest Hobbit that ever lived in field or burrow, ' said Bingo. "That was the Ring,' said Gandalf. 'Of course it is a poor sort of long life that the Ring gives, a kind of stretched life rather than a continued growing - a sort of thinning and thinning. Frighteningly wearisome, Bingo, in fact finally tormenting. Even Gollum came at last to feel it, to feel he could not bear it, and to understand dimly the cause of the torment....."

@seanbrady6731 22 күн бұрын

In LOTR, Gandalf muses on this and notes that hobbits have a different constitution to men

@fueledbylove 22 күн бұрын

@@Enerdhil No, that is not the same passage.

@Enerdhil 22 күн бұрын

@@fueledbylove I guess I'll keep looking.😅

@fueledbylove 15 күн бұрын

@@Enerdhil Just wanted to say in Return Of The Shadow Chris explains in those early drafts of FR his Dad was making repeated revisions of his story. But JRR always was striving to eliminate inconsistencies in his work. Love Chris' efforts but the additional information that he has dug up also can be an "overload" of sorts, so what I was picking up is that in the first mentions of the power of the Rings, men or Hobbits were equally vulnerable to being overwhelmed and possessed utterly, swallowed up into the Wraith-world - AND especially so if the victim was already of an evil nature. Those writing are my basis for questioning why Smeagol - Gollum could go so long and not be consumed, he killed to get the Ring and was wholly wicked. I am not losing any sleep over this, I guess he changed his mind somewhere that Hobbits were more resistant to the lure of the Ring than Men. Whew,. long post.