NERF Drums kind of suck... OR DO THEY?

NERF Drums kind of suck... OR DO THEY? | Walcom S7

Рет қаралды 113,884

4 жыл бұрын

NERF Drum Magazines have been a thing since... like, at least 2008. A mechanism that allows you to technically hold more ready-to-fling foam darts at the cost of physical real estate on your person. Are they really that bad? Or perhaps do they hold some tactical uses that can absolutely elevate your game if you're into min-maxing? We answer these questions and more because Walcom had a thought at 2AM and that's the way these things go.
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Пікірлер: 499

@mattehwizard1979 4 жыл бұрын

I got a stupid idea, jolt internals in something like a longstrike.

@kesselsauer4441 4 жыл бұрын

Please don’t do this to me.

@RF-Ataraxia 4 жыл бұрын

What do you mean? All Nerf guns are just big jolts!

@Gaminggod1997BAGR 4 жыл бұрын

Doesn't it already have that?

@pixelxy8videos721 3 жыл бұрын

Yes

@Bigmancuts 3 жыл бұрын

It sounds cool put in stronger spring and that would be a good gun

@ValTek_Armory 4 жыл бұрын

The walrus beard is coming in nicely

@jasonplacing 4 жыл бұрын

Putting the fuzzy in fuzzy walrus

@SofaPop. 4 жыл бұрын

I concur

@Crowe0920 4 жыл бұрын

The drum also helps prevent you from having *ahem* "Naptown nerf" accidents XD (aka the sad fate of his first FDL3)

@camelm3istr 4 жыл бұрын

Lol.

@Rohirin 4 жыл бұрын

Can confirm the 18 round drum is very good and I wish they would release them again.

@Nomi07 4 жыл бұрын

agreed

@WearingGoldluck 4 жыл бұрын

They are fantastic for a Stryfe sidearm, I do wish they’d come back but you really only need one or 2

@swan_kytiger 3 жыл бұрын

i do like it but mine jams a lot in my turbine lol

@Kumo-Yume 3 жыл бұрын

How have i actually never heard of the 18 round mag when was it realised

@swan_kytiger 3 жыл бұрын

im dumb I loaded 20 and not 18 it works fine itself but the turbine itself likes to jam

@christopherknorr2895 4 жыл бұрын

They're good for kids who have a hard time reloading.

@Razor-gx2dq 4 жыл бұрын

Wouldn't the drum be more cumbersome to manipulate?

@christopherknorr2895 4 жыл бұрын

@@Razor-gx2dq Yes, but you have to manipulate it less often. I'm talking like a 6-year-old kid here, one who probably has an adult who can slam in a spare drum mag every now and then for them. The kid can even carry a backpack with a few extra in it.

@gamerguy425 4 жыл бұрын

@@Razor-gx2dq IDK how to explain it but I find the drums easier to reload just because it's like having a bigger handle that helps a little with precision needed.

@christopherknorr2895 3 жыл бұрын

@Parakeet animation studio Yeah I mean, like, a 6 year old.

@christopherknorr2895 3 жыл бұрын

@Parakeet animation studio My 6 year old loves nerf.

@squintsyadams8463 4 жыл бұрын

All my drums are pretty much for aesthetics and display.

@Cringemoment4045 4 жыл бұрын

I carried one once in a hvz mission, I liked carrying one in a dump pouch and having 25 rounds to spray at zombies at final stands

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

They sometimes have their use.

@Nomi07 4 жыл бұрын

@@WalcomS7 should i buy two 25 round drums for my modulus, i dont really play competitive

@liamsomeone6333 4 жыл бұрын

@@Nomi07 I would buy one 35 or some flip clip sets (I know they're magazines)

@Nomi07 4 жыл бұрын

@@liamsomeone6333 ok thanks

@tomishere3401 4 жыл бұрын

I love how he said he switched to geico thag was funny asf

@llanelwy 4 жыл бұрын

Fell flat in the UK though, as no geiko here. (Lived in the USA for years so I chuckled)

@GasStoveAnd_Fridge 2 жыл бұрын

4:16 bruh lol

@micahsmith2066 4 жыл бұрын

I'm sorry, that Geico promo almost killed me with laughter. I don't know why, but I just could *not* keep it together after hearing that.

@draxusdemos8266 4 жыл бұрын

Personally I start off with a 25 rounder in my blaster and then switch over to 12 rounders

@ValTek_Armory 4 жыл бұрын

That is my standard mag load out, but I use 12s jungled with duct tape

@Damian-03x3 4 жыл бұрын

I used 40 dart cylinder but then bought 2nd one for even more overkill.

@StuckOnAFireHydrant 4 жыл бұрын

@@ValTek_Armory have you cut down the followers on those 12s to make them 15 (14 effectively) dart mags? I've done them to mine and I've never gone back lmao.

@liamsomeone6333 4 жыл бұрын

@@StuckOnAFireHydrant pls give me a link to a tutorial

@liamsomeone6333 4 жыл бұрын

@@ValTek_Armory I got my 12s from the modulus flip clip (it's a mag I know) set so I don't even have to tape

@tonyleccese2102 4 жыл бұрын

I always thought if the 50 round drums were any good, and available separately, it would be fun to stick a pair of them in a Rhino-Fire. As far as chains go. I have a pair of 50 round, and a 100 round chain for my Vulcans. I REALLY wish nerf had done an "Elite" version of the Vulcan.

@jamnt832 3 жыл бұрын

They did it’s called the havokfire

@polyduckwanaland Жыл бұрын

@@jamnt832 Yes but it is still N-Strike performance, and only available in Europe.

@Demonanimator 2 жыл бұрын

I honestly think Ian McCollums video on Forgotten Weapons makes very valid points on drums as well. I know his channel focuses on actual firearms, however in terms of similarity in designs and functions of both blasters and firearms, the issues are also very similar, and probably explains why Nerf no longer makes drums often as well.

@badwolf0539 4 жыл бұрын

You should use the drums first and then stick mags later so in crazy periods at the start of an hvz you have enough ammo without reloading

@jeffreytam7684 4 жыл бұрын

Apparently you can add a replacement 35 drum spring to the stock 50 drum spring. That should fix the feeding issues (and make it feed faster), but will make loading it with the Infinus even harder

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

I tried that. You'd need to have two springs and modify the rest for the springs to get it to reliably feed (much like the new buzzbee drums do), and I plan to mod that in the future.

@jeffreytam7684 4 жыл бұрын

Walcom S7 Awesome. I don’t know the specifics, just that one of my friends did it and it works in his modded RS

@seanmullen4003 4 жыл бұрын

Belts+mags... ALL HAIL THE NEGEV!!! 😈

@ARockyRock 4 жыл бұрын

na na nana na na nana BELT MAG!

@jedileader0174 4 жыл бұрын

The D-dart tempest is the size of a drum mag. Alsoif you have skinny arms you can wear it like a bracelet, then flick your wrist gram it and start firing.

@DollarStoreAbomination 4 жыл бұрын

You sport a beard pretty well Just saying

@captaincumrag42069 4 жыл бұрын

I will have to agree

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

Appreciated!

@captaincumrag42069 4 жыл бұрын

@@augustwalters4885 what makes you say that

@liamsomeone6333 4 жыл бұрын

@@coltstelting6969 what did he say?

@Montisaquadeis 4 жыл бұрын

Start with the 35 round drum in your blaster then swap to the 18/22's when you run out of rounds in the 35 that way you get the benifit of both to be honest.

@Tigershark_3082 2 жыл бұрын

This is actually genius

@chanhjohnnguyen1867 4 жыл бұрын

The best magazine is the flip clip you create after duct taping them to each other

@ryanmartinkat 2 жыл бұрын

You dont make flip clip drums?

@ryguy07777 2 жыл бұрын

@@ryanmartinkat flip 50 dart drums

@Damian-03x3 4 жыл бұрын

Drums (Cylinders)? Hell yes! External magazines? Nah.

@dudeproductions5394 4 жыл бұрын

Space management has always been the question of practicality. In most cases would have to customize said drum to your gun And pray it didn't break and they were usually harder to make in good quality.

@grahamturner2640 2 жыл бұрын

The Terrascout is an especially good use case for drum magazines, as a drum magazine doesn't take as much space as a stick magazine and it's harder to reload a Terrascout than a handheld blaster. An 18 round stick magazine is longer than a 35 round drum, and the magazine goes in the left side of the Terrascout, so it's easier to get one with an 18 round magazine stuck than one with a 35 round drum. However, I don't know what the 50 round drum magazine is like, as I don't have one. Also, in order to reload it, you have to bring it back all the way from where it was to where you're stationed, change the magazine, then send it back out.

@benallyteamak9755 4 жыл бұрын

The Walrus hair is growing while Walcom is in quarantine.

@FortyTwoBlades 4 жыл бұрын

My default loadout is to start with a 25 round drum in the blaster then switch to 18-round mags. Works a treat.

@flyingfloorboard4097 4 жыл бұрын

EXACT same for me in a dump pouch with my select fire stryfe

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

Seems to be a common thing, everybody is on point :D

@West_Coast_Mainline 3 жыл бұрын

@@WalcomS7 I do my 25 (it broke recently) and then my 18, them my millions of 6 rounds, it reloads more, but I have 120000000 rounds

@chatuba64 4 жыл бұрын

1:55 this drum looks like the drums on the assault rifles on borderlands 1

@VideoCentral-bh9tf 4 жыл бұрын

I agree. Chains are definitely where it's at. I just wish the V-twin was actually compatible with regular chains. I have a mod project called "the Dartmageddon" where it's a V-twin with a 180 round chain located in homemade drum that I'm going to make, but it's gonna be hard because of the chains.

@1994AustinSmith 3 жыл бұрын

The Infinus could probably make real good use of an ammo counter in its mag-loading circuits.

@diamond_tango 3 жыл бұрын

Yes please

@GhostJPS 4 жыл бұрын

I agree with a majority of this and there is another point I want to add with the HVZ side of things. While some people may want to run a drum (power to you guys), I would stick with 18 and 22 stick mags. I have done HVZ and seen people who has a drum that can stick and it fails to feed. That one factor can be the difference between in and out in a game like that if you run the drum without those upgraded drum spring. But that's my thoughts on this.

@Prod_Spellbound 4 жыл бұрын

You look like yung gravy on his second year of self-isolation

@evilparadigm 4 жыл бұрын

I've been using a 35 in a mixed punisher minigun (I stuffed a stryfe inside so it side loads) for a monthly 3 day zombie larp. It's been going for 3 years. I just clean out dirt after my games. I also have 2s stryfe with a 18 and 25 drum and have litteraly put thousands of darts through them. You have to be careful about how you load them and I only use waffle darts.

@lucasglll 4 жыл бұрын

okay not going to lie I just found your channel for your review of the ceda model s (mine just came a few days ago) anyway I only watched your channel for reviews and stuff but your actually hilarious and very entertaining. keep up the videos. I love them. And thank you for getting me through quarantine

@builderbb8767 4 жыл бұрын

Yes that's how I use Nerf drums, starting off with one in the blaster and drop it when empty. Never thought of chains that way, cool

@darmanskirata4167 4 жыл бұрын

My 35 drum doesn’t feed reliably if loaded to full capacity. Only with ~30 darts the mechanisms pushes the darts into the blaster without any problems

@AwkwardHypernerd413 4 жыл бұрын

i honestly think they should bring the 18 round drum mags, and i ABSOLUTELY agree with belt fed blasters being more mainstream, and i have no clue why hasbro didn't bring the vulcan back the same way they brought the longstrike back by having updated internals. Basically my ideal belt fed is a vulcan with an afterburner, high FPS and rate of fire, extendable belts, and a stock attachment point, and If it was POSSIBLE, the ability to use magazines like how the m249 can take mags as well as a belt.

@haRuni82 4 жыл бұрын

Hey Walcom! I am super exited that you actually have one of the short dart drum mags that i put on thingiverse :) Greetings from Germany ;)

@Maniac4Bricks 4 жыл бұрын

Very good topic for a 2 a.m. video. I think it's a great discussion and I totally see the advantages and disadvantages of drug use and when best to apply them. I'm still not entirely sold on the idea of chains however, maybe because I've only use the Hasbro ones so far which don't always feed very well. in a couple Wars that I've used a drum, that would be the starter and then I would ditch it for the magazines and clean up the drum later. I still have to experiment with the Magnum super drum and holding a second cylinder on me. That said, I'm not sure how practical a magnum superdrum would be as a sidearm if you already have 40 in the cylinder, a reload may not be necessary

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

I mean one cylinder, if you have the gear for it, would be useful.

@GresSimJa 2 жыл бұрын

The Infinus and super slam-fire blasters like the Raider or Rampage benefit the most off of big drums. Especially for slam-fire blasters, as it saves time that would have been spent reloading for you to slam-fire for longer periods of time.

@prestonmorris1399 4 жыл бұрын

Super high quality here, good work mate

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

@temmiescrazystuff 2 жыл бұрын

the title is the best plot twist

@rookyandb 4 жыл бұрын

I was running a drum as a starter mag for matches, always drop it and switch to 18 rounds after I burn through it.

@g-raff6107 2 жыл бұрын

i really enjoyed this video along with all your other videos (more so than coop's) lol

@omarabdullah24 3 жыл бұрын

What was that grey drum you were using called?

@volcanicus3459 3 жыл бұрын

where did you get the half dart 'drum' from..?

@TacoGuy123 2 жыл бұрын

In my opinion drums are good if your in a corner or a tight space cause you can leave them on the ground. But mags are good if your running. Or closing in on someone cause you can pull in off you vest or something. If you agree or disagree with me I would like to know your opinion

@zachlieberman_ 3 жыл бұрын

THR GEICO LINE WAS SLICK😂

@alliem7537 3 жыл бұрын

11:31 Is... is that a song from Va-11 Hall-A in the background? Nice!

@TrueNomadSkies 3 жыл бұрын

The Infinus is amazing, but even its 30 round drum jams at least once per fill if you don't play with the dials ever so often to relieve any stress on its spring mechanism. Never had that issue with 18 round straight mags, even when trying to overfeed the system unless it fills up. There are pros and cons to everything, and even easy front loaders have their place. Heck, running a 144 capacity Hailfire with minimal gear can still be done.

@larryloser361 4 жыл бұрын

ah yes a mann of culture 6:17

@kesselsauer4441 4 жыл бұрын

HUZZAH! A man of quality!

@hamzaahmed652 4 жыл бұрын

I haven't seen you seen you since the lockdown started and I already like the beard

@jsprechs7847 4 жыл бұрын

You're looking really healthy these days. Your energy seems up, you seem more enthusiastic.

@Gamer_Dylan_6 3 жыл бұрын

Drums are better for kids because they can't carry the larger stick mags in their belts. I think Coop talked about that in his drum vs stick comparison.

@justajolt 4 жыл бұрын

Great discussion of drums and mags! I used to use an "assault" load out with 10 clear mags (with potential for +2 35 drums!), then switched to toploading Raven with 35 dart drum. The more I've valued mobility, the more I've decreased what I carry, and rely on team-mates for suppression when needed. It really depends on what playstyle you enjoy (which is what Nerf is all about!) There's a massive case for the Infinus and 50 dart drum, like you said. I should actually try it in a toploading Rayven! TBR at GuN uses one in a Stryfe and can often go for a whole (more tactical) game without a reload, which is nice. PS. It's already been said, but the beard and slick hair is an awesome combo and you rock it well ^_^

@lindafirlik4486 4 жыл бұрын

Hey jolt

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

Top Loading Rayven sounds awesome.

@justajolt 4 жыл бұрын

@@WalcomS7 I used to love it. My favourite blaster plus top-loadability just put a smile on my face whenever I used it ^_^

@justajolt 4 жыл бұрын

@@lindafirlik4486 Hi Linda ^_^

@drflux 4 жыл бұрын

I really want to do a crazy chain blaster build. Just not sure what to start with. I do have a Vulcan but thats not interesting... Great video man!

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

Light Commmand/DZ Titan. Lowkey amazing blasters.

@davadid2831 4 жыл бұрын

I have a drum from the Accutrooper and one that came with a second-hand Demolisher. Use them for wars in the house in a pack but I never have time to top them off.

@gobellorules8213 4 жыл бұрын

You fine sir are THE BEST nerf you tuber, along with 99% of all nerf enthusiast you tubers the hobby has grown and evolved so much in my decade of being in the hobby, I love to keep seeing the hobby grow and flourish into what it is now keep making this amazing content, just WOW

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

I guess 2AM Walcom ramblings are appreciated!

@tyrus82 4 жыл бұрын

This reminds me so much of the video you did on stocks, or the "how to fix the wobbly modulus stock" video. You just need the guy to pop up with the Titan drum and yell out, "this is buuuuuuuuulxhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit"

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

Hahaha that was NERM from Nobacon! We should do more videos together...

@DataDownLynk 3 жыл бұрын

Well there's my earlier question answered again. The Infinus looks badass with that 50 round drum.

@scottjs5207 4 жыл бұрын

Also, that 18 drum sits nicely in a Longshot with the bipod out, the 12 round mag can't even do that.

@GyattYachtOffical 2 жыл бұрын

I just got the Infinus and I used the 30 round drum, works like a dream. I love how I can just load the "Anal Reload" and have a full drum without removing the mag.

@mattorama 11 ай бұрын

I'm three years late to the show, but magazine couplers change the game completely. Being able to clip two 18 round stick mags together gives you a huge capacity with a slim profile, best of both worlds, and the reload doesn't require fumbling around with your web gear, it's all right there. I run two 18 round drums, coupled together, on a Nexus Pro.

@jjkeeney7162 4 жыл бұрын

Can't remember the last time I used a full length mag of any kind. I love my talon mags.

@PADDY-ys4cp 4 жыл бұрын

Looking great Walcom, love the beard

@scottjs5207 4 жыл бұрын

Been thinking about this since I've been contemplating how to run a Rhinofire as a shouldered mg platform. (Still need to source a Revonix for the integration) I think I came to the same consensus, start with 2 drums and then move to 18s from there.

@oskarjohansson7488 Жыл бұрын

I personaly use a combonation start with 25 drum and then switch to normal 18 that is stored in my pocket

@RDMANGLEYT 4 жыл бұрын

Id see a use for drum magazines if you are battling behind a fort and aiming to hit the enemy in their fort. Kind like using cannon balls for ships. There for your mags are on the floor with one in the blaster.

@Wutsizbukkit Жыл бұрын

I actually found an Alpha Trooper at a Goodwill, with the 18 round drum mag, and I've found out: it can actually hold 20 rounds.

@Ayo_The_Pizza_Here. 11 ай бұрын

Actually I have 2 double mags (a 24, and a 36). How I made them was simple, take two mags (two 12's or two 18's), make them face opposite vertically, tape them together, and boom, tons of dart capacity

@afrodita2157 3 жыл бұрын

I am heavy weapons guy, and this is my, wait oh my God, who touch sasha, WHO TOUCHED MY GUN! Also i tested it, they work better sideways, they built the drum system for sideways guns

@jacktaylor5018 4 жыл бұрын

I regularly use my 25 rounders from the hyperfire, not so much from the rampage since they are rather temperamental but I have never used my 35 raider drums for a very long time since they jam so much ☺️

@chrismcclure2766 4 жыл бұрын

Wow...The OG Walrus Has Returned!....Welcome Back👏

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

But it's the same walrus....

@neolancer005 4 жыл бұрын

I never seen walcom with a beard before. Neat

@patrickrowe5781 4 жыл бұрын

Great video man and just so you know... I agree. Keep up the great work sir

@justkeenan799 3 жыл бұрын

"Because the money I saved with geico "

@Trevin_edwards 4 жыл бұрын

Good vid walcom, stay fuzzy ✌️

@tatsuhirosatou5513 4 жыл бұрын

I've got one of the good running 50 drum and I like to start a round with it in my rapidstrike but carry 18 round sticks on me.

@dr_awesome_1010 4 жыл бұрын

I would much rather use a "whiteout edition" Rampage 18 round nerf mag than a huge drum mag!

@cracdealer9007 2 жыл бұрын

Had my infinus for about a year until the rear loading motors went out. Tried to fix it but there is so much damn crap inside of the thing that I couldn't put it back together. So sad, I had a lot of fun with it, however, I might put that blue dorito foregrip on my nexus pro, so I guess I can still get SOMETHING out of it.

@energizer7354 4 жыл бұрын

The long hair and beard look you got going on looks great on ya Walcom

@Hawki007 4 жыл бұрын

Ivan wants his beard back

@memnarch129 Жыл бұрын

What your seeing is the same reason why most RL Firearms are either A) Magazine fed or B) Box/Beltfed. A Drum Mag due to both the complexity of the spiraling rounds and the size of them makes them inferior to a actual normal Magazine. And once the firearm is big enough you just go to a Box with a Ammo Belt or just straight beltfed on a a vehicle.

@sauronmrc13 4 жыл бұрын

Ah, I like your new look 👌 Everyone’s growing a beard!

@optimoosejones9493 4 жыл бұрын

I still don't see how nerf could make a magazine that has a inner conveyor belt with a stick that pokes outside the magazine that you wind down to the bottom of the magazine to hold more

@afrodita2157 3 жыл бұрын

Because they want you to buy more drums, but you can't buy just a drum, meaning if you need a drum,you have to buy a whole gun, just for the mag

@afrodita2157 3 жыл бұрын

And they are too lazy, so they just sell mags made only for sideways magwells

@jaxsullivan2117 3 жыл бұрын

4:19 yes perfect Geico joke.

@stupidweasels1575 2 жыл бұрын

Fun fact: the drum magazines i use for my airsoft gun have a microphone by the feed that trigger auto winding every time you shoot

@wendellalba7410 4 жыл бұрын

Thanx...I thrifted a 25 round drum mag...I'll be running it on my Stryfe or Rapid Red as a secondary...or shove in some surplus MOLLE pouch as a last ditch magazine

@eobardthawne3333 4 жыл бұрын

Aisofter here, winding is still there. There are sound controlled ones as well as flashmag style ones gaining popularity

@veryTASTYpink 4 жыл бұрын

Loving the beard

@hippityhoppity7816 3 жыл бұрын

you know it actually fires a bit slower with the drum mag, i got a hyperfire and the ROF changed when i used an 18 round clear stick mag from a rapidstrike in comparison to the 25 round drum that comes with it

@plumbinggamer Жыл бұрын

I like the 25 dart drum because it’s centered and it does look nice on some blasters

@spaceinaspace8452 4 жыл бұрын

Airsoft Drum mags can be wound up by a push of a button but the downside is the rattling sound when moving not great when you are trying to stealth around.

@nutellaontoast4281 4 жыл бұрын

I run the infinus witn a 50 round drum and dump pouch of darts. Works flawlessly for me, one or two hiccups by the spring in the drum, that fixes itself in a matter of seconds (Btw anyone who wants to now more abot nerf mags id reccoment watching copp 772's video about the best magazine, and the difference between a magazine and a clip)

@slimetime850 4 жыл бұрын

That Vaperror shirt (Mana Pool) is pretty sick ngl

@Onyx-on-toast-yt Ай бұрын

I personally I do like the drums because I’m very much “one mag one tag” and I don’t mind the bulk as much but my personal preference is to carry an ungodly amount of 18 round sticks, one for each tag of course

@sinisterisrandom8537 4 жыл бұрын

He went from Lord Walrus To EMPEROR WALRUS

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

Nope. Just a Walrus. Regular. Vanilla.

@Pizza_editz 3 жыл бұрын

Also they're good if u only buy like 1 blaster a year it's better to buy a gun with a drum

@andrewpickering3705 4 жыл бұрын

Love the videos brother keep them coming..

@WalcomS7 4 жыл бұрын

I plan on it!

@narenthebeesechurgerman422 4 жыл бұрын

Nerf drums kind of suck...Or do they? *Vsauce music plays

@springsandsanity6366 4 жыл бұрын

Come on, you can't say that back in 2017 $60 for a blue rhino fire with four 25 round drums, 100 darts, AND 6 D batteries included isn't a good deal. I bought 2 of them, and I'm glad I did.

@veetalin 4 жыл бұрын

I use my nerf at larp more than wars, and there I tend to run with worker 22s for the ease of carrying them in standard m4 pouches. At wars I tend to run a drum because it's usually all I need.

@flametitan100 2 жыл бұрын

Those half dart drums have an interesting shape. They might not fit well in a standard AK pouch, but I could see something like a bandoleer taking advantage of the fact that they have a hole in the middle.