This reminds me of the protein intake conversation, where 1g/lbs or 2.2g/kg was the big thing and now we're seeing 1.4-1.6g/kg has similar or equal results. I think there's a trend right now showing the body kind of wants us to succeed and really it has never been as complicated as we would've liked to think. Side note: would love to see you do a workout with Renaissance Periodization!

It's crazy how complicated muscle building is. I know some boys who work on a farm and they're buff and lean.. don't eat for muscle. don't do anything special. Just functional adaptive muscle built over throwing hay eating whatever mama cooked that day lol.

Really intersting and perfect timing as I was on the fence of either staying on maintenance, switching to a calorie surplus to gain, or opt for reverse dieting. Many thanks for sharing Layne.

The commentary in the last five minutes or so was the best part. Super helpful, thanks!

I learned that the hard way. Back in the 70s and 80s, we used to bulk up waaay too much in the off season. I would go from 230-250 lbs and cut to 198 on stage. Now at 64, I have a lot of loose skin. Beyond that, it just wasn't healthy; my triglycerides would get into the high 300s, and it's really hard on the body and psyche to diet that hard.

I love that you acknowledge previously teaching debunked methods as you gained new knowledge. This is what it’s all about, real knowledge evolves. It is not static. I’ve been following you for a while, thanks for being a harbinger of truth in the fitness space 💪🏾

So much quality information, I'm so glad to have found your channel. Thanks for sharing!

Thank you for this video Layne!

I think it’s important for us to know that we can “run out” of body fat to lose after we “recomp” at a given weight for long enough. Then our only way to gain lean mass is to gain weight overall.

This is a great study and very encouraging for us older physique competitors. Thanks to Layne for bringing this forward!

Such a great video Layne 👏

For myself after years of lifting, I tested and realised that maintenance after a cut for 3-4 months will give me good gains. Then I’d plateau and had to increase to a surplus of 100 - 150 cals.. this little change would boost my strength for like three weeks and muscle would grow even more. But as soon as I add 100 more, though there was strength and muscle gain, fat gain came along forcing a cut period. I would say for my body at least: Surplus is needed only during plateaus… the challenge is to find new maintenance when old maintenance turns into deficit.

this is completely fascinating. thanks for sharing.

Really needed to hear this. Loads of value as always. I defo need to measure my body fat percentage, cus the weight scale is only telling me half the picture. Was debating on staying on this cut, cus I'm still hitting PR's and lost 15lb of fat or whether to just go into a bull now. I like the idea of shorter phases and the fact it could just be a 5% surplus as a minimum.

That was helpful - thanks for the video!

A lot of people just can't come to grips with the fact that good results take a lot of time to arrive. Prolonged bulks are insanely effective, I myself have gone from 155 lbs to 225 lbs in a little over 4 years, the strength and size gains have been unreal. On a month to month average, that's less than 1.5 lbs a month, which is almost unnoticeable unless you track your weight closely. The time is arriving soon for me to do my first cut, and I dont plan to lose more than 1lb/week.

YES YOU CAN . I am a amateur body builder. I am at maintenance 2000 Calories. High protein I am 60 years old.. I'm mentally trying harder at maintenance and my numbers aren't proven either by weight or reps. I have the body of a 30 year old and no, i'm not on drugs..

I’ve been using Carbon for 3 weeks & I’m seeing great (which means slow & steady) progress on losing weight. I like it a lot & hope it keeps growing! Thx !

Please keep us informed on new research on this, Layne. This is a really important topic, because if surplus is indeed unnecessary, it would allow us to avoid fat gain through unnecessary surplus (also cheaper and easier to not have to eat more food than necessary).

Of course Dr. Norton had to be in a caloric surplus to go from 140 to 210 pounds. Most of us who are no longer teenagers are not looking to put on 70 lbs. So it will be interesting to see how the research shakes out for those who are looking to be more lean but not gain weight. In the past I managed to (slowly) gain muscle and lose fat without changing body weight, but it took a while! Hoping I can do the same now, because the cutting never seems to get easier.

Great video. Another point about the sample size is that many people assume that the necessary number of data points in a well-controlled study needed to observe a statistically significant difference is larger than it actually is. It's often assumed (it seems) that people assume you automatically need hundreds of people to study, but often the needed number is in the lower double digits for a sufficiently powered study.

Muscle = longevity = ability to soak up higher calories (bigger meals, more food, glucose, insulin) with no adverse effects. Just keep the deficits and surpluses to a minimum and take your time. You dont want to go into old age with no muscle and high body fat % on a stack of pills and easy to break bones.

I'm so glad you did this video. You have helped me to recommit to my lean bulk.

What ive found over the years. When aiming for maintenance, I'll usually end up in a very slight surplus. This tends to be where notice the best improvements.

There he is. Gains is calling.

This is gonna make a great video for Greg

You are so helpful . Thank you....;) 🙏

Good post appreciate it

Keep up the great content.

Thank you 😊

*Great thought process* You can't gain 30lbs of muscle by maintaining. With that said, in theory you could gain muscle at maintenance since you can maintain a positive MPS balance. But as you said, the best natural bodybuilders didn't recomp their way there.

heck yeah, RP just did a video on optimal deficits to maintain strength too. Pincer attack style, I will use both methods at different stages

Thanks Lane

Thank you

Ive listened to some podcasts in the past with a couple natural bodybuilders talking about bulking and cutting phases. They stressed the importance of keeping the surplus/deficit fairly low (5-10%), and to make yhose phases 6-12 months. Not the 6-12 weeks that most programs say. I typically do 18-24 week long phases, and that's when I've had the most success.

In my opinion, it's impossible to equate all the other variables that have an impact on performance. You may have consumed 5% more calories (good luck with being that precise), but your sleep was much better or much worse that day, you weren't fully focused during the descent of the movement, or even same days you feel less strong without explanation, or you have accumulated to much fatigue, or you have decreased your volume recently and you have detrained. It's impossible to track to that level.

The app is really great

I just did my first cut after about 5 months of working out. I actually gained 1 rep each time I worked the muscle group during that time. I thought I would have lost strength and went down but consistently gained the 1 rep. Then when I got off my cut, I am gaining 2 extra reps each workout. I made sure to eat a lot of protein, at least 1 gram a lbs of body weight.

I actually want to be a participant in a study!! Do you have any suggestions on how to participate/find studies looking for people Layne? Thanks for the video btw!🙏🏼🙌🏼👏🏼

H - Hypertrophy E - Endurance L - Longevity M - Madd S- Scientist

Thank you for this. In my experience, I just have more energy and am more confident with the basic lifts when I'm at a slight surplus. When I'm at maintenance, I can push but don't feel as strong. It could be psychological. I'm not sure why but what I know is it works. Anyway as long as the surplus is controlled and I don't go completely off the rails I gain relatively little fat and am beach ready 4 weeks into a cut.

I've done 3 bulks so far, but the last two were really too short, just 2 or 3 months each, because (A) I wasn't super lean at the start, and (B) I didn't even track calories, and I gained weight fast - so I just got fat too quickly and felt like cutting again. At least my cuts have been quick and efficient. But this next time, I'm gonna cut to a more shredded state, and then track my calories on the next bulk to make it a lot longer and more gradual. Might try a real small surplus like 5-10%, so I can enjoy my lean physique for a long time while still having potential for some gains.

Couldn’t agree more. On top of that we are fed fairytales on social media of full-time fitness athletes who are usually enhanced) promoting some kind of product that is supposed to transform your body in six weeks.

So Coach Greg has kinda been right all along. Nice!

If you chase 2 rabbits, you'll probably catch none, that line literally just changed my life

Be in a nutrient surplus, get your sleep, you’ll grow. Look for the best foods you can afford. Quality is key

great vid

as usual, top notch information

Instead of "muscle gaining phases" (usually done as bulks) followed by "fat loss phases" (usually known as cuts), I'd do a "lean bulk" followed by a "recomp."

Almost all studies dealing with exercise sciences are at the bare minimum with sample size, also genetics are never taken into account. A study showed thar exercise results are something like 80% determined by genetics. There are a million confounders, like sleep, stress levels, blood markers, etc. I do agree with this study though. I do think you need to go through a time where you eat a surplus but not a large surplus. I think people naturally are basically in surplus.

The secret everyone needs to hear starts at 8:41 Layne lays it down bruh!

The way I look at it is you can build muscle recomping (aka maintenance) bulking AND even cutting - long term, bulking will be the most beneficial for gaining muscle (however you will also gain the most fat) recomping you will still gain but at a much slower rate, and cutting you will gain but only very minimal amounts and for a certain period of time (unless you’re an overweight beginner)

This video made my day!!! I am sick to death of eating in a surplus now!! I want to eat at maintenance but i still want to make progress. If this study is true i can drop a meal a day and hopefully lose a bit of body fat at the same time! 💪🏻 i cant sleep at night 😂😂

I think bulk with between 10-15% surplus it's the way to go if you are under 20% body fat, if you are a guy, 30% if you are women, the strength gains and the feeling of bulking its so good. Also you raise your metabolism and its easier to cut later on

Yes we can all recomp - as the common man not the extreme as in professionals

I'm currently doing OMAD 2300cal max. Mike Mentzer H.I.T. heavy duty training is fantastic for natty's like myself.

So the science is backing up Greg doucette we only need a small surplus close to maintenance to build muscle for normal lifters maingain does work⭕️💪🏻

This kind of stuff is interesting to think about. As someone who's primary focus fitness wise atm is becoming a more adequate runner but I'd also like to lose about 20-25lbs. I was concerned especially when I got started about being in a deficit if that would impede muscle gain in the relevant areas which of course would slow my progress. I knew that losing weight would making running easier in it's own way. But it's nice to know I don't have to stress myself out if I'm losing weight it's unlikely to hurt my progress I can still gain strength even in a calorie deficit.

Way I see it, if you're progressing in your lifts, adaptations are occurring and you're growing. Once you plateau in most of your lifts, add a slight calorie deficit and go from there.

I'm from New Zealand where this study was conducted 😊 FOR THE ALGORITHM!

House building was an analogy an old time bodybuilder in the 70's use to preach to us kids working out. "You can't build a house without enough lumber, but if you stack too much lumber it gets in the way of erecting the walls".

I think I'd be ok with the downsides of being a study subject if I got to train with Eric Helms.

Layne, do you think the Cortisol to DHEA-S ratio is a potential detrimental impairment of muscle building?

Sweet

I’m currently on a cut, I’m using the carbon diet coach app my weekly average for one week was 1KG lost and the same occurred for the next week and I didn’t even realise it, my strength gains increased or stayed stagnant from time to time. Now I’m bumping my calories back to lose a pound a week. We definitely need more studies on this

I would definitely be interested in participating in similar studies. I haven’t been available in the past but my schedule is a little more flexible now. How do you find about such studies so that one can volunteer?

love this shit

In a surplus u just get more nutrients overall so that could lead to more gains. I believe as long as u eat over maintenance, u will build muscle. However, going maintenance is difficult because some days u eat over and some days less. You really can’t tell. That’s why bulking with around 300calories plus just kinda ensures that your always over maintenance. What do u think?

Let’s be honest with ourselves here people… the vast majority of us shouldn’t be in a surplus

For the algorithm!

Maingain more than last time!

The study shows what I have experienced, but I would add that its also a function of body fat percentage, I am around 20% body fat so I am in a "surplus" just sustaining that kind of high body fat, if a guy is single digit or even 10-12% most likely being at maintenance wont be enough and a surplus will be needed in order to increase muscle mass.

It depends on your bodyfat level. If your calorie intake is keeping you very lean, maintenance calories will not be enough to grow muscle. If you already have fat to lose, you don’t need a surplus on top of that. If you are 140lbs trying to get to 200lbs, as you build muscle, your maintenance calorie level will keep increasing. So, you could build muscle at maintenance, but you will need to keep adjusting what maintenance is as you get bigger. Or you could try eating for the weight you want to be and when you get there, that level of calories will become maintenance.

Not only is it self evident what he's saying, but I know I've built plenty of muscle in deficits while single digit. And I've always been underwhelmed when going in a bulk with strength gained.. so per usual, moderation is best.

I’m curious to know what the workout was and how each individual performed each rep

Very nice gym

Would be good to see the macro break down of their deficit. If you still had 2 gram of protein for every kilo of ideal body weight, and 200+carbs.... and 500cal deficit.... would be good to see if that works more than a normal low calorie diet

So it's best to ignore absolutes and train/diet in consideration of body fat, history, ambition, therapeutic goals, etc?

I think it all depends on the person. Like hard gainers probably would benefit most from a caloric surplus whereas those with a higher tendency to gain fat may want to re-comp with maintenance or slightly over maintenance. Wondering, those that were in a deficit who lost muscle despite they're resistance training and protein intake, how high was they're protein intake and how much body fat did they have? I remember Dr. Bill Campbelle saying that women tend to not lose much muscle with higher caloric deficits while being resistance training and consuming higher protein as he's seen men do.

My best guess about energy balance comes from my Polar V2 watch and every now and then attempting to count what gets stuffed into my mouth (surprisingly close in my case). Metrology background hints me that at best the repeatability can be +/- 5 %. Uncertainty is much more loose. Adding 5% energy surplus short term (like a month) for regular people is delusion. Over a long period, say half a year, sure - you can statistically dial it in. A lean person's strength def decreases in deficit. Personally getting 5 % reduction in weight reduces absolute str about the same amount. The effect is similar to not taking creatine.

FTA! 😘 Sidebar: Curious if researchers would get bigger subject pools for studies if they met people when and where they workout instead of doing things when it’s convenient for the researchers.

I’m coming to this subject as a PhD animal nutritionist. Knowing your true maintenance energy requirement with a high degree of accuracy is difficult with the information the average person has available. Even with animals, where we have a lot more control over diet compliance, food composition, genetic variation and activity, there is a of variation in maintenance estimates. Food databases are also made up of averages from highly variable (and often very little) data and may or may not be representative of what you are actually eating. So, saying you are truly eating at maintenance or a 5% or 15% surplus is a very rough approximation, especially considering that we never directly measure the energy or nutrients content of the food involved in any of these trials. Furthermore, by definition, you will not increase muscle unless energy and nutrients are consumed in excess of maintenance. If you increase mass, you are, by definition, eating above maintenance.

Food labels can be wrong by 20%. Also, all we need is 5% surplus. 🤔 Reality often crashes with theory

Algorithm algorithm algorithm algorithm algorithm Layne’s the DEEEEEEWD algorithm algorithm algorithm algorithm algorithm

Like Mike Mentzer said: 257 calories in surplus is sufficient. That man makes more and more sense for each day and each study published!

For the algorithm

very nice video , But the thing in this study is just saying that the subjects were at maintenance is not enough. Because you could maintain at 30% body fat and you could maintain at 10%. And I don't have solid evidence here but I think maintaining your body weight at higher BF% will probably be better at gaining muscle than maintaining at a lower BF%. I could even argue that maintaining at higher BF% is at least similar compared to being on a surplus but starting from a lower BF%. Just my 2 cents

I mean, by definition you have to a be in a surplus of some kind to gain weight at the same BF%, you starting at 140 and getting 210 would've been impossible without some sort of a surplus. The real question is how much of a surplus is ideal and even for how long should it be ran before dieting which we probably can never get a definitive answer for, as well as how which BF% you're starting at plays into this. If you got fully defined abs and a lot of leg vascularity a surplus is obviously more useful than someone with even just a flat stomach but mild muscle definition and separation.

55, 165 lbs Been lifting for 6 months. My muscles feel larger and more solid when flexed. I eat two to three meals a day of red meat, bacon and eggs.

Do you think metabolic adaptation would be in effect if you’re not increasing enough?

This is awesome, incredibly useful and timely information. Have been "cutting" for what feels like forever (read: getting rid of covid weight and then some) and I'm eager to start bulking intelligently really soon. Any time I've tried to bulk in the past I've just used it as an excuse to eat everything in sight, but making a firm commitment to do things different this time. One small request for you Layne: Could you boost your microphone gain? Most of your videos are super quiet and I have to raise my speaker volume really high relative to other content on youtube.

I’m really stuck on what to do. I’ve lost 130 pounds in 2 years (I’ve switched to recomp the past 6 months and have gained a lot of muscle) and am nearing my weight goal of 165, but I’ve been stuck at around 170 for the past month or so. Idk if I should just go to maintenance now and forget about trying to lose 5 more pounds and just try to gain muscle or should I try to recalculate my maintenance since it probably went down and I’m maybe not in a deficit anymore. Any help would be appreciated

Im barely in a surplus. And gained 7 pounds of muscle in a few years between shows. And im a natural guy also. Lifting for 15 years

The problem with having a very small surplus is the fact that in order for you to even track that surplus you have to count every calorie and since we all know that the labels can be off by as much as 20% having only 20% of a surplus means that you could possibly be at or below maintenance and not be in a surplus at allthe safer approach to make sure that you’re not wasting your time is in fact to have somewhere between 507 150 cal surplus. I would rather be sure that I’m gaining muscle then spend two months just to find out that I wasn’t eating enough.

been doing a "re-comp" with calisthenics for a long time now. my body looks way different. i focused on getting better at pullups, dips and pistols. my body got stronger, leaner and it def looks like i have more muscle. same weight of 195 pounds, just a lot less fluffy

Can you please do a What the Fitness on KZfaqr Goatis?

Would maintenance be good for recomp if you have a surplus of girth?

Are there any studies that look at fasting as a way to do overall calorie control while otherwise eating in a surplus to gain muscle? I'm not very good at tracking, out of laziness, but what I mostly do is eat in a slight surplus through the week, but every week or two I do a 24 or 36 hour fast. It seems to work really well so far. As an example, if you are eating 2000 calories a day. Over a 7 day period you eat 14000 calories. If you fast one day that would drop 2000 calories, but if you eat 14000 over the other 6 days you can eat a shade over 2300 a day for the other 6 days for building. You could even shoot for about 2150 on the 6 days so that you overall are in a deficit but are building lean tissue the vast majority of the time. I haven't seen any studies that attempt something like this protocol for overall muscle gain and fat loss. It seems to be working for me though.

Literally been eating a 200 calorie surplus for about 6 months now and it’s done me well. Quicker recovery and finally getting stronger (trained for 15 years now). Cheers!

Anecdotally, I’ve trained at maintenance for years. I’ve gained strength and lean muscle