"Vanila" typescript got me

There are libraries, there are frameworks and then there are language rewrites inside the language. I say: use libraries, be wary of frameworks, run from nested language rewrites.

Frameworks like this tend to result in write-only code and become legacy once the next fad shows up. Not saying it's not good, just saying 999 out of 1000 of these fail and fade with time, the other 1 will be deprecated because at some point useful features get first class support in the browser/base lib

This architecture is very common in Haskell. There are a few effects libraries and talks about them, if you want a taste of it

He made a mistake at Effect.Effect return Effect.flatmap(effect: effect)) : Effect

I love Ethan, can't wait for him to see this and address the performance aspects :) I'd throw in some more syntax sugar for some of these, and hope to see them benchmarked against "vanilla typescript" haha

Disney+ was made with effect systems in Scala (Cats/ZIO), so they can be fairly efficient resource-wise.

Writing in this style in Scala with Cats Effect. It's quite nice actually.

I think if JavaScript and Typescript devs would start to embrace the idea of errors as values and start writing libraries and packages using this model, we could probably inspire change among the community

I was using fp-ts, and I loved it, and Effect is even better. People writing comments here are like horse riders criticizing cars or people using zip files instead of git. The Effect is a great tool. I would ask them how you handle errors in your apps or libs? Try catch? Oh noooo, poor boy/girl. How do you pass dependencies? Manually or globals? How do you know this function can fail? Reading the source code? Really? And how do you structure code? Mutable classes? OMG. ThePrimeagen just reacts; he explained nothing... it's just a show-a waste of time.

yeah I guess you could do this. But tbh it's a lot simpler to just have tagged unions representing an Ok or an Error (pretty much a sum type, enum, or whatever you want to call it, but a "union" of structs in TS). then in the happy path you return an Ok with the data and with the discriminator set to "ok", and in the error path you return an Error with the discriminator set to "error". The type declaration looks like this: type Result = { status: "ok"; data: T} | {status: "error"; err: Err} and you check the discriminator (`status`) to determine what to do. this encodes errors in the type system and effectively solves the problem, you just have to remember to put a .catch on every promise and return errs from catch blocks

I am doing my degree in computer science currently and I have to say that I have learned more about programming from you than I ever have from school. You not only teach stuff but also show us how to fend for ourselves. Im looking forward to being as good as you are.

Vanilla typescript - Vanilla typescript - Vanilla typescript - bossing the windup today.

I am waiting for libraries for this Typescript library...

Looks like someone finally turned Tom loose on TypeScript. Someone needs to build fundamental tools that assume asynchronous operations by default and byzantine or distributed problems where concurrency primitives are EFFICIENTLY WRITTEN (memory efficient) first-class citizens allowing you to set sync points that run when dependencies resolve or are available. Unfortunately, this does not do that. Ultimately something capable of doing things like this is probably an interpreter mixed with a scheduler pretending to be a language... Good video and meta video!

It's a good reminder for new programmers to do your best to induce randomness to scheduled client request and all back offs. This some how escapes people's thinking. If all the client programs request an update on the hour. You're essentially building your own DDOS client. Will you be able to handle 100k clients all asking for the same resource at 1 am? what about million? and if so much more computer power are you paying for to do what could be spread out over 1 min? 5 min? an hour? etc. Instead, you can quiclky generate a random or pseudo-random offset*. Now, on the back-off and retry, you need to the same thing. Why? because if the server fails it will likely fail on the clients at near the same time meaning they'll retry at near the same time. Also, it needs to be more aggressive in fall-off and failure then you'd think when start getting into "scale." *Try to use something unique like user_id plus time, mac address plus time if you have to set your seed value. In environments where all clients have the same hardware. You might set your random seed to time since boot. That will be same or at least cluster for the devices with the same hardware and software. And setting to the current time at startup can also cause problems if your hardware boots up on it's own after a power outage since all the hardware will boot up at the same time. Nothing like suddenly having 10k clients in sync.

14:40 This happened to us for a websocket reconnect backoff algorithm, except the connections were successful, but there was an error that happened *every time* for all clients after that request, so the "request success" was never successfully processed, but the backoff algorithm thought it succeeded. So the backoff not only "didn't work", but it also compounded onto itself due to the exception bubbling and incomplete processing. So after a bit of time, all clients were sending 10+ expensive requests every second. It was like the Loch Ness monster hiding in the code trying to figure out the exact cause of the chaos.

I highly expect the type name arguments in functions like catchError to be safe. I’ve accomplished similar things in my library functions and it provides intellisense too

"a typescript library" i'd instantly click away

It’s pretty well known (and powerful) writing style in FP, it’s expected that mainstream languages catch up only a few years later. Although there is an old but vibrant libs and community around it in JS (see Fantasy Land).

When the hoodie comes off we get a buff overflow

I agree, unless there is language syntax support its unusable. Look up "Algebraic Effects for the Rest of Us", the author introduces made up syntax which makes it way more simple to read and understand

New Dev Question: I started noticing that TRY CATCH issue a while ago so I’ve been dealing with it by giving each Action item its own function with its own TRY CATCH. Then using a Controller function that Await Calls each function. The Function would catch the Error and move it up. Wouldn’t that be the solution to all this? If theres one thing I’ve learned in my short time, it’s never that simple Lol

Is Effect a Library or a Framework? Do you become a Effect programmer?

The word "Effect" itself is already very traumatizing

Or just pretend you are writing Go and always return [T, error] . Very simple and works.

Just write a new language instead. If you want to fix language issues, don't do it inside the same language. Make a language that compiles down to wasm, and by the time you're getting it put together, wasm will have direct access to a bunch of useful browser APIs, and you won't even need to get messy with JS layers of the language.

The DBClient example reminds me of ObjectiveC protocols, though protocols are much clearer and explicit.

All monads where `flat_map`/`and_then` takes an `FnOnce` are effects. (Also, few things are easier to reason about than RxJS. The only time I had an "if the types check out I can reasonably expect it's doing what I want" experience in something JS-based.)

Sometimes I have trouble understanding some specific things that are discussed but it's ok since I'm not the most knowledgeable about more low-level and memory concepts. I am however fairly experienced in JS and TS, so when I see these videos and don't understand half of what's being said, my impostor syndrome level goes through the roof.

type and variable with the same name belong to different namespace and the compiler does its work.. has no limitations except naming conventions working with multiple devs

We're reaching a point where the bicycle has already been reinvented because round wheels were deemed inefficient, except the new wheels are now dorito shaped, and somehow it's better. Maybe things like wasm really will be the future, because this really isn't it, chief

Agree with “typing strings is always a worry and should use something else”

Yes please give us a programming language with effects! If you want to see the theory look up "algebraic effects and handlers", it's s concept that's been studied for some decades now. Algebraic effects capture a class of effectful computations that can be reasoned about, well, algebraically. Monads can implement all algebraic effects, but their logic sometimes is too abstract and fails to capture some properties of specific effect systems.

Yeah, this might just be trying to do too much ; the error handling is OK-ish although as you mentioned it could really benefit from language level support (prettier syntax), but the concurrency thing sounds like it belongs in a completely separate language. It could work the other way around too, perhaps ; it could be an alternative async library, the way we have some in Python, while trying to instead make the error handling part of the language?

OK I just watched the video. I'm very excited about my next typescript project: Effect Effect Effect Effect Effect Effect Erect Effect Effect

The depency injection part looks like ServiceLocator pattern

I kind of hate opinionated frameworks with passion, thanks Qt. When someone tries to modify the workflow of a language - adds language extensions/preprocessors (Qt, React), forces a code structure (often with a custom build system that stops working after a while, hey Meteor), adds programming primitives that are incompatible with the baseline of the language (Effect is a great example of this) - the project becomes unmaintainable trash in a 2-3 years. Frameworks like React - that are, arguably, a net positive between a forced structure+primitives vs simplicity+standardization - are exceedingly rare.

completely agree with the conclusion and drawing parallel with rxjs. More people should start thinking about that before they quit the project they started bacause they cannot debug anything anymore... Also profiling in the browser is a nightmare as everything is fragmented and scattered all over the graphs...

in node error is first as there is only 1 error, but more paramers

my boy ZIO is getting into JavaScript ecosystem lol

If TS is JS with types then what is TS with `Any` types and try/catch blocks? Hey Tom do you know?

Gosh the more I watch these videos the more I love Go

Literally just ZIO for TS

Been waiting for your reaction to this. Thanks man ❤

Effect triggered my Coffeescript PTSD

Error, Value instead of Value, Error saves you the hassle of explicitely returning undefined

I just use const [value, error] = function, and force to return [value, error] on my functions. For 3rd Party I use "etov" as wrapper. Thats fine for me and its working. It works with async and sync.

Fun fact an object having a then method can be used like a promise in js.

And people say Go has bad error handling. if err is 1000 times better than try - catch

Next generation typescript ia having types at runtipe. Feepkit is doing a great work on this. Please have a look into it 🙏

the generator function thing is a pretty neat idea, but I agree that it just doesn't really seem like it fits into the language, and would be prone to spreading to places where it only complicates the problem for no real reason.

Prime without hoodie is something I never thought I will see in my life.

Prime says he is pushing 40, but his torso can’t be more than a day past 25.

jezus TS got vanilla'd?

As a web dev that exclusively uses typescript in React apps, I have no idea what current 'real world' issues this would solve for me. What am I missing? Also really confused every time I hear him say "useEffect", but then try and go back and remember he is probably saying "use Effect"

Are we going from wrapping every html tag in a react component to wrap every js line in an "Effect" call? 🤨

If they had debugging functionalities as well, would that fix your issues?

"Effect provides a better way" and then vomits all over the code.

Where the hell is the black hoodie, prime?

"Library", "next generation" ... These are the spam words for me nowadays. Let's fix the fix with the fix that fixed that previous fix

Modern Java now espouses return types modelled by an interface with multiple records (structs) implementing it. You then use switch with pattern matching on the result. You create an exception and wrap it in the result (the Error record type), but not throw it. So much better developer experience. Is this better?

Microsoft is doing some research on effect types as well, look up Koka

"right off the rip" 👀

On the frontend I like the react-query way of handling errors and fetching data. On the backend use Elysia or use another language other than JS if possible.

Who is this guy talking? He looks like the prime-guy, but we all know that the prime-guy has the hood as an essential part of his brain. It's like a turtle and his shell, they could not be apart.

Functional programming has arrived for typescript.

"all languages are flawed, so.." is such a low bar to clear

I wrote something like this, but only the error handling. Just capture the errors as values and use type guarding to "handle" the errors.

When are we getting Primeagen courses

I like it as an experiment. But I am really tired of the years we have on trying to "improve" javascript adding a whole layer of concrete on top. Not really solving it, just covering the ugly.

If this is a clickbait title god damn it. Edit: Nvm it looks pretty promising

I don’t understand the problem with promises already running in the background and the value being memoized. Just pass around a function instead. You can then call the function as many times as you like and get new values each time.

How is this any different from what things like rxjs offer?

I honestly had to vomit on the first Effect code and it didn't stop afterwards either. Glad I'm not a Web developer that has to deal with sh*t like that.

3:50 in which way is this better than just a promise chain?

Prime hiding all the muscles under that hoodie Is that hoodie some kind of power limiter or

Question for Prime and the web devs here: what's wrong with non-typescript languages that compile to readable Javascript? (I'm thinking Purescript or ReScript, but there are probably others.) I can understand why you wouldn't want something that emits something you can't read and I understand that using web assembly has costs and overhead. But is there some reason beyond popularity / familiarity to use Typescript over Purescript et al.?

12:12 why? How does it help? Too much code based on (was it ever proven?) assumption that it’s unrealistic to make dependency injection at 11:15? I’d really like to see the code for which they implemented this wrapper.

Are we bringing back "OrDie" like PHP ? That Effect syntax needs to be cleaned up or we might as well go back to callback hell

Can’t this be implemented using webstreams with transforms?

Alternate title: Prime tries so hard to like software he hates and not be a bully for 24 minutes and 44 seconds. (He succeeds)

Memory concerns with JavaScript 🤔 Okay, yeah that makes sense. I haven’t encountered those issues yet but I get it. But are you really programming with JavaScript for televisions? Wouldn’t you do it in C or Java? Are televisions closer to imbedded systems, browsers, or operating systems?

Bro is looking beefy

haskel is so glorious, you can only write whitepapers. gottem!

I wonder if you could instead make a language that is compatible with typescript but has extra syntax so all these new language features are not quite as messy. Svelte does this sort of

2:36 - LOL

Devs at 90' - we need to create lookup table of sin/cos. Devs today map map pipe recurse

Effect is also quite a long name for this I think

is Typescript trying to reinvent throwable?

It might not return a value, but it could always return an error

4:50 how can I start writing code for TVs?

BRO WHAT IS THAT TSHIRT AND WEHRE DID U GET IT

first time i see the prime in a tshirt

Wait, isn't this ZIO? I mean, it looks like TypeScript implementation...

"My mind personally is racing with memory". Like a race condition? =)

He finally took off his trademark hoodie. Imagine the smell.

What does he mean by "V8 is not single threaded?" It's not??

Scala ZIO :)

As I watch this, all I can think is that they seem to want a new language. ReasonML tried that. It makes sense though; disconnect the implementation from the syntax.