That was super fun to watch! Thanks guys!

Honestly you can bring these decks down to reasonable costs with two changes: 1. More Petals for mana instead of P9 2. Switch Recall for Brainstorm That basically makes them reasonable for how much $ vs how powerful the decks still would be. Being allowed 6 Petals is more likely than 4 Lotuses anyway

They both do..

It would be kind of funny to chalice for 0 on a deck like that, then start laying down tron lands and sweep them with a 15 mana emrakul

​@@Blacksunstoneful lmfao

@@Blacksunstoneful once the Chalices are in play you resolve a Monastery Mentor (currently restricted in Vintage, for good reasons) at which point every non-creature you cast into Chalice still generates another 1/1 with prowess, closing out the game very quickly.

That's why Chalice is restricted in Vintage. Chalice on 1 turns off so much.

Well to beat chalice you can just play more lands, which is fine because moxes only really become so much better than lands when you are already playing a land every turn. Opening exactly one land is just like opening a mox, but with better properties.

Despite that being probably the best known flash-hulk kill, it was never actually played competitively or the "main strat". The deck was only legal for a month in Legacy and a little over a year in vintage. In Legacy Flash-Hulk used the combo of hulk - Carrion feeder + Karmic Guide - return hulk, sac to feeder - get kiki-jiki - kiki copies karmic, response sac kiki to feeder - guide enters return kiki - kiki copies karmic, repeat. Doing this makes infinite karmic guides with haste. The vintage hulk decks just used 4 virulent slivers and a heart sliver.

That's a great line!

The first year I would say "wow, that's good with year 1?!?" As a surprising commentary would either be 1997 (Tempest block, because 94-96 were much more muted than 93), or, jump ahead to 99-00? Let's jump post-Urza: Mercadian Masques block is not awful but it is pretty balanced not broken. Food Chain is a card, though. Rishadan Port has utility but still seems fair just good. So maybe skip Masques? Invasion block is the first obvious stop: 1. Phyrexian Arena. No it's not Necropotence but it is good enough that it's impressive and surprisingly so for being, at the time so new and so far removed from 1993 as well. (Almost a full Standard rotation after Urza. Had the insanity dust finally settled?) 2. After Phyrexian Arena it's really not a contest: Mirrodin block entirely was a return of Urza block and the coast was Not clear. 3. After Mirrodin block: DREDGE. Let's first explain why I didn't bring up Storm: honestly Force of Will planted back in Ice Age was the hero keeping people safer from Storm. Force doesn't help against Dredge so much And Dredge specifically put an Arabian Nights Reserved List Land on blast after it seemed like Library's days were finally over: suddenly an *entire mechanic* besides Black Lotus and Lightning Bolt were really on people's radars for "how to be silly in Vintage" -- not just draw, specifically self mill. 4. So, '93, '98, '01, '03, '05 Time Spiral block was obviously a huge celebration of 15ish years of tradition What's the next truly unexpected Surprise silliness? Well definitely not Planeswalkers, because the Lorwyn 5 were Fair. Tezzeret was also not the first card to throw his hat in the ring to combo with Time Vault. The M10 Era looked on the surface like it was Stable and Fair and nothing would outrageously boat rock Vintage. Jace, TMS and SFM sure made a splash on every other format, but Vintage didn't seem as bothered by them, and you weren't -12ing in Vintage. I think "after Dredge" it has to be: Classic Broken Oldies '93-'94: ABU, AN, AQ Classic Broken Modern '03 Mirrodin '06 Dredge '12 Emrakul the Aeons Torn '13 Griselbrand

Classic Broken Oldies '93-'94: ABU, AN, AQ '97-98: Urza-Necro stupidity '01: Invasion's Phyrexian Arena was pushed a surprising amount for its exact timing. Someone else might put Psychatog or another card here. This era was calming down to relatively *fair* though. Exciting, fun, skill testing, and fair. Classic Broken Modern '03 Mirrodin '06 Dredge '12 Emrakul the Aeons Torn '13 Griselbrand and Phyrexian Mana writ large, but infect didn't damage Vintage much. So you can make a history of "honestly broken cards" to show an almost even sprinkling of Busted years going up to 2013 clear as day. Innistrad also contained Lab Maniac so probably Psychatog really does belong on this list. From 2015-2018, does anything wreck up Vintage a lot, or do we merely observe an aggressive evolution of Original Modern to the Modern we know today? Pretty sure Broke-o Thief of Crowns at least has to make the list. Honestly forgot if Kaladesh was Vintage good or *only* Modern good. There were periods of up to 5ish years in a row they did not accidentally/(on purpose?) print a new Vintage archetype. Companion is silly. The story from Shards of Alara up to War of the Spark seemed to avoid affecting Vintage when able to and now they are willing to on purpose shake up Vintage more frequently I believe. In fact Theros Beyond Death 2020ish we are about due in the next 2-3 years for something absurd.

​@@darthparallax5207 Marques is one of my favorite blocks. It was very powered down, but as a block it was very fun.

Yes because if you wanted you could do the flash deck in bant only using breakfast combo (Cephalid Illusionist + Nomads en-Kor)

Kinda are cause the Doomsday one you can also win with just Doomsday + Ancestral Recall instead of Demonic Consultation.

Thank you very much!

They both have a Merfolk 🍣

I mean, yes. They’re even the same one. But the joke was right there. 🤷🏾

Also, what game/website is this?

@@XYGamingRemedyG mtgo

I imagine that the artefacts are played instead of lands because you can only play 1 land per turn, but multiple petals/ moxen per turn

Now that you say so, a Mox Sapphire probably should be a basic island.

@@JoshKeeling-lt7xl Yes but if you only play one single land then it does not matter and unlike playing a mox playing a land allows less interaction. You could even play a dual land instead of a mox to slightly improve color fixing. I could see it be a drawback if you gain something by having artifacts in play (e.g. affinity or Urza's Saga style token) or or casting spell (e.g. storm) but here that's not the case so I asked because maybe I'm missing something.

I'd probably put in a Tolarian Academy

Blue/black dual land might be better than Mox cause you can pay for Ancestral Recall or Demonic Consultation with it in the Doomsday deck. Problem with lands in a deck like this is you get a card in your hand that you can't play until next turn instead of a broken 0-cost artifact or free counter or that you could be using to win right now.

In Vintage, Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall are restricted to one copy each. In Legacy, they're banned outright.

whats your wincon? bankruptcy?

@@battyrae1398 mill

pretty bad deck

@@battyrae1398 I snorted

Don't forget Thassa's Oracle!!!

2 cmc for a counter in these decks is too expensive right?

@@twitchster77 yea I think so as well especially since it's 2 different pips, but uncounterable interaction would mean the card you counter will most definitely not resolve.

@@twitchster77 maybe flusterstorm then?

@@camael4209 Oh no, I absolutely agree with you on the power level of Veto, I just think that it's difficult to play in these decks as holding up the UW while also trying to combo off is rough. Flusterstorm is nice...but I think Mindbreak Trap holds the same role and can be cast for free. I really feel like playing nothing but 0cmc counters is the most optimal way to go in these decks.

@@twitchster77 Pact of negation is a lot worse than it looked in their games though. If you cast it on your opponent's turn they can just let it resolve and win. Dovin's Veto would be mana neutral countering Thassa's oracle or flash and if the library was empty for Thassa's Oracle you could win by decking them.

seems pretty useful in my thoughts on similar kinds of things. that's why i concluded something like ad nauseum would be better than thoracle as a win condition so you could draw your whole deck and then set up a boardstate where they couldn't win (somehow infinite combo to give the opponent 10 poison so they lose as an SBA next turn maybe? also worth noting that Trickbind would allow you to counter the ETB of thoracle, serving basically the same purpose though you could also angel's grace in response to your own pact triggers to avoid losing that way, too

I played shops with 4 trini before it was restricted and it was hard but not impossible to play around

@@LyleH-13 yes but did you have 4 black lotus and could you get them out on turn one with a force backup most of the time

@Lyle Hawkyard the only way to beat unrestricted shops is with an aggro deck, combo decks are week against it

@@unstopable_rob ive played vintage since the 90s, its not impossible.

@Lyle Hawkyard it's not impossible but highly unlikely especially in best of 1

He already did that

@@trubica Hell yeah

Well back then there was no Force of Will. So they were hooped.

It's a client called "Magic Online"

Look up “download Magic Online” into Google.

@@NikachuMTG Thanks 👍

That is true but you might as well say that it isn’t even a card. You just reduce your decksize before the game begins. It would be less interesting.

@@smegmalasagna no no, I'm saying they do play for ante, you don't remove it before it begins, you just play with the best wheel effect in the game available to you

@@KILLUNOW5TIMES Ah that is a very cool idea :p I'dd like to see how that would play out. I could see a storm deck with that card.

Sadly the ante cards don’t exist on MTGO

I guess if you’re trying to win on turn 1, you don’t need another turn.

These combos are theoretically better

but what is the Atraxa win?

39 Timetwister, 20 Black Lotus, 1 Lightning Bolt

There is a format called Alpha 40 which plays by the original rules (both deck construction and gameplay), 40 cards, no limit on number of copies, no ban/restricted list but only allows Alpha printings of cards. In this format they have gone well beyond the channel fireball plan: the mathematically optimal deck is thought to be 19 Black Lotus, 11 Timetwister, and 10 Braingeyser which wins on turn 1 99.0118% of the time. However; afaik the best deck ever actually played is Stephen Menendian's deck of 12 Ancestral Recall, 10 Mox Sapphire, 7 Time Walk, 4 Black Lotus, 4 Timetwister, 2 Black Vise, 1 Tundra. The problem with the channel fireball deck is that you have no card draw so you can't turn 1 without Channel and Fireball, plus mana sources in your opening hand. The fact that Blue Vise is 23 card draw spells and 15 mana sources makes it extremely unlikely to have a dead opener.

@@anonacc3067, Like I said; It wins on turn 0 most the time. There is the odd 'bad draw' where it might take more than that. But you also have mulligans you can attempt to fix with. Turn 0 being they can't even play a single land, and have no turn. I have even built this deck in Shandalar and tested it, with very good results. And Shandalar has awful shuffle mechanics; As it loves to deck stack. With all mana grouped, and all everything else grouped.

@@buckrodgers1162 It's not a bad deck, I'm just saying when you remove the 4x copy requirement you can much closer to a 100% turn 1 than that, therefore it's not the "best banned deck in MTG". It's also impossible that it wins on turn 0 (by your definition) "most of the time" since you're on the draw in 50% of the games and can't win in the opponent's upkeep. In fact if you include newer cards, I would bet that you could build a deck that can win in your opponent's upkeep more consistently than your deck wins on turn 1. Also lmaooo at the idea that the Shandalar shuffler stacks the deck

@@anonacc3067, Well first off: If you want to take the 'coin flip' into account; Then even that is not a 'true 50/50 chance'. As even coins have a weight distribution problem, and depending on the coin design, one side will always be heavier than the other. Thus resulting in more of a 4X/5X chance. And you would be surprised at how many time I have personally seen the Shandalar shuffle mechanic result in draws that had one of the following: 1: Nothing but mana/land 2: Nothing but spells/creatures or other castables. Or 3: 2 land in the first hand, and then nothing but the aforementioned castables. And these are with decks built with the standard '60 card layout'. 30 total mana/land cards, and 30 castables.

A great question no one has an answer to

It goes both ways. Free counters also tend to protect degenerate combos. I think what makes a horrible world is having no B&R list.

Well, as much as I wanted to play that card, it just doesn't exist online. As with the other ante cards.

@@NikachuMTG I didn't know that. I have it in my cube. We just don't use the ante part. It is just a 1 black draw 7.