@robertlamkin6464 GREAT question and welcome to the chat... I apologize in advance for the complete dissertation here, but I think this is a *very good discussion topic* that is worth deep diving into. I am a big Timo Meier guy, and absolutely love the dude. Maybe after reading this, you will eventually grow to love him too. I also had the temptation to be infatuated with +/- in the past... It is a nice stat to have for reference, but I would not put too much into it. I used to care about it more than I do now. The reality is, while it paints a picture of sorts, to me it is extremely limited in it's portrayal. To be clear, I do value this stat, but I won't let it be my "end all be all" when analyzing a player. Let's peel back some layers here when looking at the case of Timo Meier... - *Only 2 Devils regulars finished on the right side of the +/- this season!:* Kevin Bahl at +1 and Curtis Lazar at +10 (McLeod was a +6 through 45 games before he was banished) COMPLETELY INEXCUSABLE and can NEVER happen again, but that tells the story of a tragic season for the New Jersey Devils. - *The Devils gave up a staggering 283 Goals Against.* Only the Canadiens (289) and Blue Jackets (300) gave up more. This is extremely concerning, and hopefully dramatically improves next season with the combination of a new/legitimate NHL goaltender and a slightly revamped defense. Playing on a team that got scored on so often will make it difficult to finish the season with a respectable +/- for anyone. - *Power Play points do not count towards +/-* Timo did a good chunk of his damage on the Power Play. Timo Meier had 10 Power Play Goals and 7 Power Play Assists, for 17 total Power Play Points (17 of 52 points; 32.7%!) Nearly 1/3 of this man's production! +/- does not reward this production whatsoever! While 5 on 5 play is PARAMOUNT; Power Play Production certainly matters. How can a stat REALLY tell me the story (or "worth" as you said) of a player if it doesn't take anything he does on the Man Advantage into consideration?!? -*Empty Net Situations Are KILLER!* Many times late in games, Timo would be on the ice with our goalie pulled, looking to tie the game. (because he is one of our best offensive players) There were LOTS of goals scored into our Empty Net this year. Unfortunately, this is not an easy stat to find online. If anyone knows where to find it, please let me know. All of these goals are another MINUS for the guys on the ice. Timo was certainly on the receiving end of several of these. (as was Luke Hughes!) Timo Meier's -35 was atrocious. It was terrible, there is no sugarcoating it. In his defense, the Devils' defense was porous and the goaltending was abysmal. A recipe for disaster. Not to make excuses, but Timo was playing through a nagging injury for a good portion of the season. We saw a different player when he was further along in his healing process. He was one of our best players from March on. (26 points, -6 in March and April combined) The overwhelming percentage of his overall MINUS came earlier in the season when he was injured and struggling. He was constantly misused at LW instead of his natural position of RW, and was STARVED of Power Play 1 time. When he was healthier (I won't say fully healthy, because he NEVER was...more on that at the end) and switched back to his natural RW and used on the Power Play (how he was utilized when he was lethal in San Jose; what a novel concept!) we saw a monster. An absolute monster! Timo is our only true POWER forward. He brings an element that nobody else can. A rough, tough, gritty, grinding SOB that can beat you many ways. A rocket one-timer from the circle, a tip/deflection in front, a pretty deke, or a pounced on rebound. He can score in MANY ways. Not too many guys can do that at the level he does. He gets under the opponents' skin (see 2023 series vs. NYR - he was a complete MENACE despite lack of points production) This team needs some more guys like Timo Meier. Please see below for my favorite Devils goal of the 2023-2024 campaign, scored by none other than Timo: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qdOfpbV2np_SnoE.html This is beautiful in so many ways. There aren't many guys in the league that can pull off a sequence like that. Timo Meier is a complete BULL. BIG BOY HOCKEY. You need guys like this in your lineup to win, especially in the playoffs. I cannot wait to watch Timo in the playoffs again. (should be next season!) For those that like to say "Timo being injured is BS!" etc etc and refuse to give it merit... After this season ended, Timo Meier got arthroscopic surgery on his shoulder. He was playing injured ALL SEASON LONG. Instead of shutting it down and getting surgery during the season, he choose to play through the injury and wait until the offseason. WARRIOR! It definitely killed him to not play at the World Championships for Team Switzerland. He had to watch his countrymen (including Nico Hischier) go on a magical run to the Gold Medal Game. The Swiss ultimately fell short and lost to Czechia (at least Palat got a Gold Medal), earning a Silver Medal. In conclusion, I was thrilled when we traded for Timo, and thrilled when Fitz signed him longterm. I remain thrilled that he is here. He is going to be a BIG part of this nucleus for the next 7 years. I expect him to hoist a Cup in a Devils jersey. For all of these reasons, I cannot judge Timo Meier's worth (or any player's) on Plus Minus alone. There is far more to take into consideration beyond this metric. Power Play Production and tenacity/other intangibles MATTER and are completely ignored. I am ecstatic for 7 more years of TIMO TIME in New Jersey! If you made it this far, thanks for reading....and thank you for watching! Sincerely, ACE (President of the Timo Meier Fanclub and Defense Team)

@@runninwiththedevils I made it through. Thank you for the impressive break down and analysis. Yeah, I noticed - you line Timo:) The power play and empty net facets of the discussion are legitimate arguments, and make sense in the larger scope of the Timo’s and even Doug Hamiltons (whose underwhelming +- has not escaped my antennas, and who was probably on the ice with goalies being pulled). In Meier’s case too, I never considered his early season injuries. I did wonder why Lindey inexplicably did not use him to his stronger wing. Thank you for the time and great discussion! P.S. Mr. Kurtis Mc McDermid was a +5!

@robertlamkin6464 Any time! Lindy keeping Timo at LW is a mystery I will never understand. Kurtis was +3 with the Avalanche and a +1 with the Devils!

@shakersword that deal sounds very reasonable. I wouldn’t be mad at that one at all

I like this deal

@michaelcentalonza593 likewise. Maybe Conroy has gotten realistic now that the world knows Markstrom wants out!

@michaels7134 Markstrom to NJ seems inevitable at this point for sure. Let's hope we can bring him in on the cheap!

@jordanengstrom2269 I have faith in Keefe to figure it out

@zachw4829 Oh yes, going back in time with this one...a classic

@pucksnpicks I like the move. It is a true “let’s go on a run now” maneuver. I think Markstrom gets revitalized with this group and the change of scenery. I will definitely review some memorabilia for those interested pretty soon!

@jamesvalenti9288 How is France?!? I have never been. Markstrom is a great short term solution for this team. I am shocked at how many are outraged because "he is 34!", as if it is 65. TONS of kids in the minors. If ONE of them cannot pan out; we need an entirely new Scouting Deparment! Dating a 37 year old at 21?!? Look at you! #BringBradyToNJ

@@runninwiththedevils France was AMAZING! Went to the 80th anniversary of D-Day and Paris. Would definitely go again, and recommend going at some point.

@luiszephyr I think it’s a logical route to go. Markstrom puts us in WIN NOW mode!

@topjimmy72 I think Keefe will be fine. If he doesn't mesh with any of them after this upcoming season, I can see some changes coming...

@JSnow-rv8ls I wouldn't do it straight up, but if they are retaining salary and including another pick(s) or player I would definitely do it...

@732media I wouldn't look into this too much. So many things could happen between now and then.

@krizlad Neither would I. But I am fine with dealing the #10 for Markstrom (hopefully with retention) + other pieces

@LRon-Hoyabembe Zadorov is my #1 Free Agency want....we need a guy like him desperately

@JSnow-rv8ls At 40 years old! That is why I do not care about Markstrom being 34 with 2 years left on his deal. People emphasize this entirely too much. It has become a common complaint amongst fans. Bobrovsky is on the verge of winning the Cup right now at age 35! Patrick Roy was 35 (4 months away from 36) when the Avs beat the Devils in the 2001 Stanley Cup Finals.

@JSnow-rv8ls Lots of people try to discredit Marty. He was the best to ever do it...

@filipberes319 I saw

@@runninwiththedevils as an Hawks fan that dude was terrible in Chicago but at least he will not be a head coach

@Javier-ox8ui huh?!?

@sinisterls4 It is possible. I am always willing to give a guy like that an audition in the Top 6. HOWEVER, if we are hoping to slot him into the Top 6 going into the season....we have already lost IMO. At this juncture he seems like a 3rd liner. Ideally we need a big powerful winger to pair with Jack. That would be ideal. Thanks for watching! Great gift from your girlfriend! The Timo Fan Club is happy to have you...

@jayviation7879 it’s gonna be Markstrom

@allaboutrecords I think he is a bit overpaid, HOWEVER, I do like him overall. You saw how we struggled when he went down. He can move the puck and is a Power Play beast. The team looks wildly different with him in the lineup IMO. That shot is a cannon. The Devils had to offer him crazy money to get him to come here. I think he will be a big part of the team for years to come as well. Dougie is one of the handful of guys with real experience. He isn't easily replaced. His contract does open him up for fair criticism though. I am hoping for a big year from him next year, along with many other guys.

@jeffa.7618 yup! I expect something along these lines to be what happens

@anson.meadows I love Coleman, but hate his contract

@JSnow-rv8ls I agree. I would love to see Bahl develop into a nasty guy and use that massive frame of his effectively. I think Fitz brings in at least 1 d-man this Summer, I would love to see 2.

@cbonez2909 you gonna read along?!?

@michaels7134 the Flames wish

good luck lmaoooo you're not getting those guys back .

@robpowers8978 no chance Sharangovich comes back. Coleman’s contract is a dealbreaker for me. $5M can be spent elsewhere in Free Agency

@michaelcentalonza593 certainly seems that way

@Dirks_NUMA_Files his age doesn’t bother me. As long as we get more assets coming our way with Markstrom, I am ok with dealing the #10. Markstrom is a win now move and I like it. Ullmark is a much higher cost; both assets and $. If he isn’t what everyone hopes he is, that’s a major whiff that sets the organization back. If we end up with Gus, many will be calling for Fitz’ head. That move doesn’t qualify as “Big Game Hunting”. Also, there are so many quality guys available in Free Agency; I would only want to trade the pick for a big impact player, like Brady Tkachuk.

@jamesisrael4294 I have always like Kadri, however, there are tons of guys that are wayyyyyy better usage of $7M/year

@nomaar1717 I will risk the #10 pick for Markstrom (with hopefully some retention) + another pick(s) or players before I risk the #10 AND Mercer or some other assets for Ullmark. (who will subsequently likely be signed to a 5 year-ish deal at ~$6M/per) Everyone is focused on Markstrom's age. Nonsense. I am not worried at all for 2 years. Ullmark is actually the BIGGER gamble due to the cost. (assets AND contract) Markstrom gives us a strong short-term solution until one of the young goalies in the minors are ready to take over....

@973Lucas973 I just can’t see it….

@893263007 I could live with that. It would be nice if we could get a slightly sweeter deal

@CollectRecords732 Completely agree. We don’t need the future goalie today. Markstrom shifts this club to WIN NOW mode. Zadorov coming here would be a dream. Would be an incredible start to the offseason if we landed them both

@sherwoodparksleepcompany1485 Something like that would certainly be interesting, however I don't see it happening. A move like this is a masssssive roster overhaul, and I do not think Fitz is in that mode. I firmly believe Markstrom is his main target, and he is going to try to get the best deal possible.

@millertime1101 Markstrom > Kaapo. Who’s Hart Murray?!?

@@runninwiththedevils forgot Hart was on Canada team Nevermind but Matt Murray and Kappo for now works better for future upgrade defense and two way forwards

@topjimmy72 Brossoit would be my backup plan. We wouldn’t have to trade for him, he’s available in Free Agency! Markstrom is far more proven, and for that reason I’d go with him…

@ryanreist6841 THIS! We won't give the #10 pick for just Markstrom. There will be retention and/or other pieces/picks coming our way if Calgary wants that pick. Many people do not realize the value of: "our core gaining playoff experience also comes at a cost. Making the playoffs, losing in post season, making a deep run and losing its all part of the process for a team to finally win it all." This is lost on so many people. You need to be able to walk before you can run. This is all part of it. We took a step forward in the 2022-2023 season by making the playoffs and winning a round. We took 2 steps backwards this season with the massive dud. We have to make playoff appearances and winning some rounds a regular occurrence. I believe we could go on a deep run or 2 with Markstrom in net. I do think we are a few additions away from having a reallllly special group here.

Completely agree! If number 10 and Markstrom are the key pieces of a trade and there’s either salary retention or other pieces to balance the trade out, I say Fitz needs to sign on the dotted line and get it done. New coach, check. Upgrade in goal, check. If we could land a Zadorov or Tanev type addition to the blue line and another piece up front, we are deep enough to be a playoff team and can fill any needed positions at 2025 trade deadline. The next several years are going to be a lot of fun for us Devils fans.

@ryanreist6841 we are on the same page my man! Now Fitz just needs to actually make these moves!

@steverobinson8771 Allen only has next year left on his deal. Hopefully after next season, one of the kids in the farm system come up to backup Markstrom for a year of tutelage before taking over in 2026-2027.

@RyanDaMan24 I understand the hesitance, but I don't agree with it. Bobrovsky is on the verge of winning the Cup at age 35 right now. The Flames were trash last season. I think a change of scenery could do wonders for Markstrom. With a healthy and hopefully somewhat improved lineup next year, I think Markstrom could be excellent. All goalies are a risk to me. I think Ullmark would be a HUGE risk for us to take on personally...

@@runninwiththedevils why do you think Ullmark would be a huge risk?

@RyanDaMan24 We will have to trade some valuable pieces to get him here. Then he will likely be looking for $6M/year for 5-6 years. He is largely unproven as THE MAN in net for a team...and he has struggled in the playoffs. If the Devils obtain him and he doesn't pan out, that will hurt them for years.

@Troyski155 that isn’t exclusive to Markstrom though. *Any* goalie we get could potentially get hurt. It’s part of sports. If whoever we get this summer gets injured; the team will rely heavily on Jake Allen

@@runninwiththedevils I just don't want them turning to the young guy's. That's why I'd like a three goalie system.

@Troyski155 if Fitz improves the team like he should, I do believe Schmid and Daws would both look MUCH better than they did last year. The defense was nonexistent and the goalies were getting shelled nightly. Breakaways, 2 on 1's etc. With a healthy team and a couple of improvements, I believe they could be adequate for small stretches.

@runninwiththedevils oh yeah, I agree. But it's better for those guys to just play lots without being called up. I do like Markstrum, though.

@kfree1966 I want Brady more than anything. But if they won’t deal him; I don’t mind using the pick in the Markstrom trade; AS LONG as it is not an even swap. We must get more coming our way. Markstrom’s age doesn’t bother me. He has 2 years left. This is a WIN NOW acquisition. We don’t need to find the goalie of the future today.

Brady isn't going anywhere. Concentrate on Markstrom and be prepared to give up the 10oa pick.

@CraZeeCanuck1 Prepared to deal the #10 as long as there are some other pieces coming with Markstrom from Calgary...

@ADB358 not terrible, but I’d like an upgrade to push Haula outta the Top 6

@topjimmy72 I can't see Fitz doing that straight up

@@runninwiththedevils unless he gets also retention on his salary

@wunzigan that’s not quite straight up IMO. But I talk about retention in the video

​@@runninwiththedevils if Fitz absolutely must trade for Markstrom then get us the 28th pick, 50% retained on Markstrom, and Mackenzie Weegar. There are rumors that the above might be happening except with Mangiapani coming in a package instead of Weegar. But I'd prefer a defenseman.

@topjimmy72 I would be on board for any deal around those parameters. It makes sense for both teams.

@AllanTr Buddy, the #10 pick could be in play, but it certainly is delusional to think it would be that pick straight up for Markstrom. I promise you it won’t be.

@@runninwiththedevils Hmmm No one ever said it would be straight up. Everything i,ve seen has the 28 overall involved.

@AllanTr that's the situation I was referring to as delusional. So we are on the same page....

A bunch of you seem to want Coleman back. I love Coleman, but I don’t know how I feel about him on this team today. I think we need some size and grit added. Coleman in conjunction with some other guys brought in could be nice. For me, his contract kills my interest. That $5M/year could be used more wisely in Free Agency IMO

@@runninwiththedevils yeah that’s fair, idk who else that we would want that’s on that roster if they’re dead set on our first

@ARusso22TV salary retention on Markstrom and another pick(s) coming back our way

@@runninwiththedevils yeah and use those picks to get a d man plus ours from the Toff trade

@ARusso22TV There are a ton of good defensemen available in Free Agency…

@anthonymanganaro9942 cannot go with Jake as the true #1. That’s bringing a knife to a gun fight. He will be a serviceable backup. We need a proven goalie. Markstrom gives us a great chance every night

@wunzigan I think we can squeeze Calgary for a better overall deal than that. You all know I would absolutely love Brady Tkachuk. This attempt may have to wait until next offseason. I’m not big on Guentzel. Lots of other guys I rather have in Free Agency. He is gonna be looking for a ton of $

@wunzigan I am all for Zadorov and another D. There are so many available. We could make some biggggg splashes on July 1. Let’s get it done Fitz!

10th for Markstrom at 50% retained is horrible value

@stevenczachor1574 What about the 50% retained AND their 28th pick?!?

@@runninwiththedevils It's still not good value. The 10th overall pick should be reserved for someone who can be part of the picture for the majority of our core's prime years. There are few goalies even worth it. We are not a win now team - we are in the luxury spot of being able to compete for the next decade with this core. If the pick isn't moved, it would be invaluable to add a high quality player on an ELC in a couple years when we have the core all locked into big money deals. I think you can get Markstrom without giving up the 10th or even next year's 1st.