I get your point but also is all about perception, bella didn't really see herself like that bc back in arizona she was invisible and also pale lmao

You can really taste the notes from the author's mormon background

Same goes for the Michael Bay Transformers: the same lack of artistic self-awareness, made inexplicably popular by acts of mass stupidity.

@@cambriaofthevastoceans6721Indeed! Its the weird mormon shit thats the problem all day. As I've said elsewhere, in Twilight, as in vampire fiction in general the "blood kiss" is a very thinly veiled metaphor / substitution for another kind of fluid transfer, i.e. kissing, boning etc. The whole thing of the Twilight series, it's emotional core is the "will they, won't they" or specifically when does Edward get to finally "fully consumate the relationship" by turning Bella. And the answer is, after marraige, after they've been together literal years, after they save the world, after they have a kid and when the only alternative to not doing so is literal death. So yeah kids, thats when it's ok, and not before.

If Bella had just fallen for a normal guy, she would totally be one of those girls trying to get all of her friends on Facebook into whatever MLM she'd joined onto.

Yea seriously, how does he manage?

God yeah!! A vampire in a school setting would be hell to conceal but I guess it comes with the plot of "oh Edward has enough self control in him but Bella's blood is super extra delicious and special, so of course it would send him and every other vampire into a frenzy from a mere whiff" I think so far the only vampire media I've read that has addressed how hellish the experience of becoming a vampire while still attending school, is a manga called Happiness by Oshimi Shuzo. Homeboy gets attacked one night and turned into a vampire without him realizing. And the entire week he's slowly turning and his instincts start kicking in, he really REALLY starts smelling blood everywhere in his school and breaking down in random bouts of fever and painful hunger pangs for reasons he doesn't understand, specially whenever he's close to girls which like, he suspects why, cus he can literally smell it... but he doesn't know he's literally a vampire yet so from his perspective he's slowly losing his mind and it terrifies him... It ends up being so debilitating physically he stops going to school completely after accidentally attacking a classmate in a literal frenzied state and sgit just goes downhill from there (btw, is an excelent manga, from the same author of Inside Mari and Flowers of Evil, totally recommend it, incredibly brutal though, but is an amazing Vampire centric manga that plays its horror and drama completely straight)

As a teen I wondered why menstruation wasn't mentioned, and a solution exists too, the damn low dose pill that stops the periods, I was taking pill not for contraception as a teen (severe acne) I assumed it was just because the usa are bigoted, so no mention of any contraception even if it have several usages outside of preventing getting pregnant (As a french teen in the mid 2000's I had already the strong idea that usa were bigoted, anti americanism was there too in my country after irak invasion... it was strange all this fuss with flags the oath and stuff it's alien for me all this nationalism etc, here that was quite exclusive of the far right, sadly the overton window is exploding here too now... And I realised my country is bigoted in another way too even on the "left", like the islamophobia is so rampant... and the teen dramas with often pregnancies etc the no abortion mentioned...so strange, religion is way less important here, so teens getting abortion it's mostly shame and slutshaming and less "it's a sin", but that's not really better anyways, we need to stop shaming teens...)

imagine if his frenzy was triggered by vape clouds. dude would be having a terrible time.

and for that matter, why the hell are vampires going to school in the first place? I'm probably forgetting some flimsy excuse in the books, 'cause it's been literally 15 years since I read one. but come on..... they're there to prey on kids. that's it. that's the only reason for them to be there.

+

Just first hand experience of a Mormon society, where women are mothers and homemakers and nothing else really, unless you are horny in your dreams and decide to share that with the world..

I feel like... people should just stop using the word "misogyny" at this point. Nah, the female writer isn't a misogynist she's just a cringe lady. Idk why everything has to be "hateful toward a group" like Jesus Christ it's so baseless. The writer is dumb, she doesn't hate her own sex.

You can certainly say that there is no examples of non heterosexual romance or what not and also that theres not really much if any emphasis on the theme of feminism but thats just good old fashioned conservative Christian and or LDS mentality on the part of the author for you.

@carnespecter, I hope it’s ok to ask, is there a (noticeable) difference in the treatment (or discrimination) of different Native American tribes? Sorry if it’s a stupid question, I’m from Europe so I don’t know a lot about it. What we tend to learn is about the treatment of Indigenous people as just one category, rather than about different tribes. Have different groups been treated differently in the past and now, is there still an obvious distinction between tribes? Thanks!

​@Otroskikanal "Indigenous" has never been one category of people. There always have been and always will be obvious distinction between tribes. The problem is that racism depends on flattening those distinctions to make it easier to create a racial hierarchy (i.e. various European ethnic groups merged together in American society to create the near homogenous White identity so they could create a unified front to keep racial minorities from gaining power). It's easier to oppress indigenous peoples if you don't have to consider them as many different nations in themselves with vibrant cultures and strong sociopolitical structures. It's Whiteness vs. The Other.

Don't expect too much from a mormon

I'm thinking it's because she's Mormon since there's a whole thing in Mormonism where native Americans are considered to be demons.

I am not Indigenous, but collaborate with Indigenous colleagues and research and teach about Indigenous concerns. Grain of salt and all that. But, in short, in North America/Turtle Island alone there are literally hundreds of Indigenous nations (present tense), spread across an enormous land mass that encountered different colonizers at different points in history, as well as lands with no recognized contemporary tribes because of genocide and displacement, whose original peoples have their own distinct histories with colonization, and distinct present experiences of settler colonialism and racism. Experiences vary, and political attitudes toward colonizers vary, wildly across different Indigenous communities.

as someone who grew up in a town where anyone who wasn't a mormon was very quiet about that fact, learning meyer is one was a huge lightbulb moment for me lol. Like "ooooohhhhh that explains a LOT"

This is it right here.

I thought the exact same thing! An essay like this but analyzing the Mormon influences on the story would be really interesting

@@NataliaNNS I have been wishing and dreaming for this exact thing. I need a queer ex Mormon who knows twilight to get on it. I would literally pay for it.

@@lukaj679 I am all of the above but I wouldn't want to film it myself. I could totally write it though.

indeed, it's all of it. The misogyny is common in a lot of romance yet racism made it so much worse. I did indeed read this series and the fan fic series. Like the opening, I too found some escape cuz I was dealing with life dealing issues and it's nice to escape for a bit. When you're in a shite ton of physical pain, you really need a light escape. I also wanted to see what the deal was about. I didn't ever want to judge without reading. I've come to Ms. Weekes conclusion a decade or so later. TL;DR it's all of it in totality

The real problem is that it sucks

Yeah, I remember being a bit uncomfortable with the implication that American Indians are just born spousal abusers. Despite Stephanie Meyer being Mormon, I like to think the implication wasn't intentional, but it sure was interesting to see that implication there.

The fact that Twilight made SMeyers a really wealthy woman but the quilleute people have never - and will never - see a single cent from her is really damming

@@emiliobustamante2401 Real talk. Helping out the Quileute with some money would be the least Meyer could do after the disastrous representation of them she did.

I laughed pretty hard at that line.

Princess cannot just drop that and move on like she didn't just make my world axis shift

Can someone explain this joke for the people (me, I'm people) who lack context?

@@lafken2 It's from a Flo Rida song from 2007. Called Low.

For some reason I only got it now

If anything, twilight "vampires" are the straightest out there

We need to cut flack to the legitimate vampire fans though- the problem for vampire fans was not "that's so gay.' It was 'Ah man, these vampires are not nocturnal," thus the rest of the world-building is lost- no nocturnal bisexual vampires going to the opera

@@ary3901 FAXX

@@EbonyPenmarks Billy and Mandy's Dracula is the only valid non nocturnal vampire.

Um....Blade? ​@@MMoturi22

I fucking loved Leah when I first read the books. In hindsight I think I was attached to her because she's the closest thing to a queer character that we ever got (in the sense that as a werewolf, she was stuck with a typically "masculine" aspect about her identity despite being a woman. like if twilight werewolves were real i'd totally say female werewolves are welcome in the queer community, fuck it, lgbtw+)

The kind associated with suburban Mormon lunacy, it seems.

I went down a mini rabbit hole of Leah centric spitefics a while back and definitely felt that she really deserved her own story by a better author

@@LadyAhro Tbh this is true for like half of the characters in Twilight

Leah deserved better.

Yeah, framing it as either for/against women turns 'women' into a monolith . Like... something can be made by X with the intention of being for X, but that doesn't demand or require all X to approve of it or like it. Like one wouldn't say "This cajun seasoned shrimp platter was made by an American for Americans if yo don't like it, you're anti-American." and expect that to be a strong argument.

As whatever the heck I am, genuinely don't know yet, I agree 😅 Definitely spoke to a lot of people, but not me... I did feel isolated, it did feel crappy. That was very rare though, I usually want to enjoy "stuff" and give into the hype rather easily.

@@skepticalpanda8862 what do you mean? almost all fiction has moral messages lmao. Tortoise and the hare anyone, this shit is literally elementary.

@@skepticalpanda8862No one’s doing that here bucko.

Thank you for commenting on this because a lot of media made “for women” is incredibly isolating to me. Media “for women” is often about and for thin, feminine, heterosexual, and ofc, white women.

Well said

Thank you! I always use Transformers and Michael Bay to argue against people who say Twilight should be banned because it's bad writing. That said, it's so frustrating trying to educate people that they're wrong for hating Twilight because of their internalized misogyny, just so I can tell them that it'd be better for them not to enjoy Twilight because of misogyny and racism.

O u ate that!

hmm i see what you mean, but i also wonder if there can be some defense of michael bay, in that he is able to competently use all the cinematic techniques and tools at his disposal to portray his vision. michaal bay is a misogynist, but he's also a competent director. stephanie meyer is a bad writer and the misogyny just comes as a byproduct of the bland white nonsense that is twilight (if you're unconvinced lindsay ellis's michael bay auteur theory videos are worth a watch)

​@marielozoria just because he is a good director who can showcase his misogyny doesn't excuse it. It isn't even a good defense.

Exactly and thank you for watching x

@@Princess_Weekes you are welcome! Love your work 😍

I... sadly still read the books and watch the movies because, while they *are* bad for people, it's sadly a decent read (at least to me) now and then when I just want to shut off my brain and pretend for a while.

​@@Princess_WeekesI'm really glad you said this at the start. I wish society was more comfortable with multiple things being true at once.

@@BrokensoulRiderNothing wrong with that. I still read this other series even though it has a ton of problems with how it portrays women.

Oooh, this is interesting

I’ve always suspected it was indeed the fantasy version of the Mormon-values husband. You get the conservatism but also overwhelming romance. Not just the conservatism.

​@@HeavenlyEchoVirusI was lucky to find a really great partner. It makes sense that we have both left the church now. We were both very dedicated to our beliefs, but neither of us ever fully fit in. I can see now it's not a bad thing *at all* that my partner just couldn't fit in with the other men.

Now this is the story I’d love to know!

As someone who was not Mormon but lived in Salt Lake City at the height of the books it was wild to see my classmates and adult superiors (almost all who were Mormon )go wild for these books and feel incredibly guilty for liking them. I didn’t have the culture context they did to feel the same and mostly felt nonchalantly about the books. It was a wild time.

How dare a book be written from a perspective you disagree with… Everyone has their own story to tell, and those stories will be contradictory and disagree with each other. Fiction is ultimately a question, and if it is done well it will be a thought provoking question even if you disagree with the author.

@@thrawncaedusl717 are you aware that expressing annoyance at a popular book series espousing ideals such as “whiteness is indicative of moral purity” and “women are all meant to bear children and not doing so will make their lives empty and tortured” is not #cancelling Stephanie Meyer and cutting off her Microsoft word subscription? She obviously has a right to tell her stories. Also, people have a right to think they’re shitty. That’s how art works! Hope this helps

@@cannibalgender I more take issue with the seeming rejection of a religious belief. Good, thought provoking (if still disagreeable) books like Wheel of Time have come from such perspectives. That does open up an interesting question though: what is the goal (yours and others) of pointing out “problematic” literature? If you don’t want to silence the authors, what do you actually want? Do you think that the average reader of Twilight would act racist towards Natives without your posts telling them? If not, then why do you feel the need to let others know about your moral opposition?

@@thrawncaedusl717 I’m a mormonphobic bitch with an English degree, thanks for asking

I sometimes wonder how intentional the Mormon subtext was supposed to be or if it’s so deeply ingrained in Meyer that it just kinda showed up. Probably the latter but who knows.

Oh yeah. The entire central metaphor of Edward's vampirism is Mormon/Evangelical sexuality. He wants Bella with insane desperation (men are monsters who inherently want sex all the time) but he has superhuman self-control who would never "take advantage" of her (drink her blood / have sex with her) until they are married.

It's honestly wild from an exmo standpoint. I was never into it when it came out, but looking back so much makes sense. So much.

the thing with colleen hoover is that if she'd just frame her stories as psychological horror, she'd be golden. But the full-chested, unironic, un-self-aware embracing of the horror she creates as "romance"... You'd almost have to be a pick-me to *like* her work

Insane to call someone a pick me for not liking SJM books aren't all of her protagonists pick mes?

@@degeneratemilkhater5696 Probably, it reads like the same characters and gender essentialism over and over again. However, I got bored about 20% of the way through Empire of Storms and have never read ACoTAR because of it.

And it’s also just as sexist, just in the opposite direction. Real women, actual women I mean, are neither a slayer, nor a passive fainting victim. They’re people, with individual strengths and weaknesses.

Fellow non-lover of Colleen Hoover, SJM and Stephanie Meyers here 👋 Leah deserves her own story so bad. But-and I can not stress this enough- not written by Stephanie Meyer. I so desperately want to read the moment that she pulls out of her depression over Sam. Because what he did to her was horrible, but it was again SM putting her Mormon flare on her trauma by having her described as a harpy and feeling like her life was over. I want so bad for her to come to terms with her lycanthropy and moving the f on from toxic Sam and Emily.

They did so that. Thats exactly how 80-95% of all teenagers act and I feel like every decision both Bella and Edwards made was giving teenager with no chill.

For all the books allude to Wuthering Heights, that regularly calls out what a horrible person Heathcliff is, and how destructive his obsession with Cathy is to everyone around them.

well tbh I do think that bella was clearly a parentified child who, while her parents were nice, had parents who weren't competant. Particularly her mom, who she had to mother herself.

Totally agree! However, I think Bella really downplays how bad her parents are. She started paying the household bills at the age of ten because Renee kept forgetting to do it and takes it upon herself to cook and clean for her grown father because he can’t even make pasta without burning down the house. If I were Bella, I’d want to abandon my parent-rearing duties and run off with my hot immortal boyfriend too.

@@SecretTwilightGirlCharlie survived years taking care of himself. She don’t have to do those things, she did them because that’s what she’s used to doing. Again, her parents were not perfect but they don’t deserve having their daughter just disappear one day.

Tbh Jacob isn't even the case that always bothered me the most - sure, that whole thing with half-vampires maturing faster feels like such a handwave and it's all still weird and creepy af, but, you know, at least there's *some* sort of excuse, however half-baked. And also, Renesmee is still a supernatural creature capable of crushing rocks with bare hand as a toddler, with a whole family of even stronger supernatural beings, some with powers, and an f-ton of money - if she decided she actually doesn't want to get involved with that older guy she knew since being a baby, she could definitely fight against it and have a way out. Quil and Claire, tho... 😬

people say stuff like "if you hate twilight you're a man or a pickme!" when they could also be a self respecting person of color lmaoooo

She comes a from a religion trying to claim American Indians are a lost tribe of Israel, or something like that, so yeah...

@@gwathgor still a baby, still weird

Jacob looses autonomy when he imprinted. They all do. They loose the ability to choose. They become brainwashed and obsessed against their will. Jacob hated the concept of imprinting.

Rosalie’s story ALONE deserved her own book😂

Exactly! How the hell did she manage to make the most interesting characters with backgrounds that deserve more exploration. But instead she decided to make the movie surrounding the MOST BORING BLAND WHITE COUPLE TO HIT THE SCREEN.

@@tariqthomas9090 So does Leah Clearwater, probably one of the best characters in this entire franchise!

Them not getting a lot of screentime is probably why they manage to be more interesting. They have a fun pitch and no details, so we can just imagine the details as being actually well-written

Yeah I definitely agree. The vulturi vampires, the not Bella & Edward cullens and the Leah Clearwater could have each been a book on their own. Far more interesting than the main characters

Twilight revolution next

@@zainmudassir2964 But that brings us ever closer to the Twilight Pax Britannica!

The Entwilightenment? 😅

Most people who learn about media critique from the internet have nonidea what a "lens" is. They just read a post on Tumblr about symbolism in something they haven't read/watched, and automatically believe it. Someone only having one lens that they analyze media through is a telltale sign that the person grew up just repeating the "correct" opinion on social media. It is the socialization of being a teacher's pet.

The "death of the author" concept - at least in general usage outside - has splintered since that essay. Or rather, it's gotten to the point where most people (myself included) use it more for the idea of ignoring the author's intention/history side of the argument and almost completely ignoring the part about readers bringing their own interpretations into it. In my opinion, the reason why is two fold: 1 - The constant rise of post-work additions via author blogs, interviews, Director's Cuts, etc, has utterly mutated the concept of a story's "Word of God." An author can (and some often do) post hoc rewrite parts of their stories on a whim. There are three obvious examples - JK Rowling's near obsessive releases of world building that can and does influence the way people read the books (Dumbledore is gay, the name's of Harry's Potter grandparents, the names of Hermione's parents); George Martin's similar (albeit smaller) release of information/his opinions in interviews and blogs; and an interview by George Lucas that has effectively locked in the concept of what the Force is to most of the Star Wars fandom despite every piece of media he's had a hand in borderline going against this very same author "intended" interpretation. 2 - Modern criticism and discussions of works often include the "lens" that the second part to The Death of the Author. This video essay itself includes the lines "as black readers, or black people in general..." in reference to Sarah j. Maas' works. Perhaps I'm merely projecting, but I see Death of the Author as being something used by people to fight against retroactive rewriting of a work via Word of God statements. Whether that be from tweets, interviews, blogs, or what have you. That is, if character X is supposed to be a tragic hero, then it's down to the author to at the very least hint at this rather than write them as a total asshole who gets redeemed after the fact when the author doesn't like people attacking said character.

@@morlath4767 People like you are proof that Tumblr has destroyed all media. That part where you basically admit that you don't believe in redemption arcs really confirms all my biases.

@@Abcdefg-tf7cu That's an... interesting interpreation of my post.

@@morlath4767 Well like you said, the author is dead, so there is no way for me to misinterpret anything you say. I got chills when you started making those coded confessions to your crimes at Unit 731. I don't need to take any of your personal history into account, so you being born after 1945 can't refute my claim that you are a war criminal who conducted human experiments.

I WAS FIXATED ON THAT THANK YOU FOR ALSO NOTICING, it drove me crazy that must have been so painful

To be fair, she is wearing some form of flat footwear. She's not barefoot.

I remember and still have this old fanfiction where Leah joins up with the boys from Supernatural and that story was amazing.

THANK YOU!!! Leah should’ve been given her own series/book that would’ve been far more interesting. The only female werewolf in the tribe? I mean come onnn

There's a few great Leah spitefics I've seen around.

Yes.

@@LadyAhro I’m sorry there are Leah spitefics? That sounds amazing

Just a matter of getting it into the middle, where we can call out the misogyny in 90% of the hate the series got AND the legitimate issues the series has, which also includes misogyny.

Well put! Agreed!😊

The misogyny has layers (even within examples! 😬🙃) And there's even YIKES bits for sexism generally too (re sexual pressuring/sexual assault - Ive commented somewhere else but besides the more known examples ofc with Bella and Book-2 onwards Jacob, and the grooming, and consent issues EVERYWHERE there's even one for Edward arguably being the victim; iirc with Tanya, one of the Denali, having a history of barraging him with sexually explicit imaginings of the two of them whenever he comes to stay, because she knows he can't block her and no one else can hear, and how she physically corners him/trys to pressure him...and has rejected his 'no's' and requests to stop, too.... So. 😅even Edward, an observably abusive, manipulative character is the recipient in at least one instant of this crap).

​@nviz47 And BELLA kept whining and nagging him for sex isn't respecting the FRIES of consent, either...

@@ethcal3195 She straight up would have assaulted him if he didn’t have vampire strength

whoah i wasn't aware of that!

It’s also interesting that Jacob’s on-screen/ perceived “glow up” it a result of him cutting his hair. I think you can kind of see what messaging that sends. Especially with his character ending the series becoming “civilized” by this white family. It’s colonization all over again. Terrible :(

OH WOW that's so much worse??? Why the hell should he have needed to cut it?! Surely wings still exist in Hollywood, no?

​@mossmother64 Now it's so weird to me that the werewolves cut their hair. Especially since they apparently identify more with being native after the change

​@@ellenh5468 Yeah that's strange... Nowhere it is explained why Like if the lenght of fur was linked to the length of hair maybe it could explain cutting it during heat waves etc but no need to cut everything anyways and that's a crappy idea to have them cut their hair period

Any movie that takes place in North America has to use natives as the magical people, because European spirituality only has historical roots in Europe. They even acknowledge this in the movie, with vampires being based in Rome and the shapeshifters (wolves) being from the US. You're seeing racism where there is really only common sense. Moreover, shapeshifters feature far more prominently in native American mythology than in western European mythology.

Because when white people are magical it's just Angel's and God. And those aren't Magic. Theyr miracles obviously Completely different lol

Yup. And to make things worse, the books’ explanations for how vampires work is grounded in “science.” With quotes because it’s very shoddy. Still, the predominantly white group having detailed scientific reasons for how they work while the brown people get “idk it’s just magic” definitely has some implications.

Well, because, they are magic. Or at least they were once. Their spirituality is magick-based, pagan, telluric, polytheist, extra-corporeal, based in souls, totems, elementals, divination and energies; only people who still believe in the Medieval Theory of Witches feel the need to exoticise or not aboriginal religions, or actually any paganism as a fact, as separate, therefore perhaps less valid, than other, more stabilished, religions. Of course indigenous people have the right to follow other, mainstream, churches or to be atheists or gnostics or whatever they wish, but it's only reasonable to suppose that in a group striving to keep their ancient culture, most people will be pagans. Now you may thank your Ranting Witch here.

It is quite a handy way of fast-forwarding the relationship and skipping the whole getting to know and trust each other thing. They're just magically obsessed with and / or horny for each other as soon as they meet! Thinking of it, I'd like to see a take on that where a couple are bonded to OTHER people, but their love for each other is enough to override that unnatural compulsion.

Yea I was obsessed with those on wattpad when I was in middle school lol

True Blood (where the majority of vamps are bi so I wouldn't call it straight necessarily) is heteronormative vampire media done right.

I'm dead

The confederate thing kills me to this day. Like… she couldn’t have made him a union soldier? Maybe that he was drafted and didn’t want to participate if he was in the confederate army? Or even if he was just ashamed of it later? It’s too much to ask for I guess. Ugh. Even tvd had the sense to at least make Damon a deserter, jfc.

​@@lookitskatiex to be fair, the Salvatore are actual Italians in the books, but I think they took everything to the US in order to save costs.

​@@lookitskatiexapparently where she had him stationed he totally could have been union too, because she was a bad researcher

"But the people who made it their whole personality to hate Twilight were always just like "sparkly vampires gay lmao" That's because the vast majority of Twilight hate back then came from males who had never read the books or even watched the movies. They just hated Twilight because women liked it (which also caused the Justin Bieber hate back then) and, like you said, "sparkly vampires gay". I think that's why the "Twilight hate isn't misogynistic" take just misses the mark. There are valid criticisms of Twilight, and I agree that on the whole it is a bad series, is racist and glorifies abusive relationships. However, none of the males criticising the series actually know these things because they never bothered to watch the films.

@@dmb1745 "none of the males criticising the series actually know these things because they never bothered to watch the films." That is blatantly false. There are a lot of men who have read all the books and/or watched all the movies so that they could give informed reviews. Just a quick search on KZfaq proves that.

Yep. Canonically, it's only female vampires who are sterile. In addition to Edward having a kid with human Bella, we also learn near the end of the book that there's a vampire named Joham who's just... going around impregnating human women because he apparently thinks vampire/human hybrids are the new master race (I can't think of a better way to word that).

​@@josephdavis9234 jfc eugenics too?

​@@josephdavis9234 what in the nick cannon-

He imprinted on the egg, actually... which, um, I have no words for.

@@lainiwakura1776 and this is why I think Stephanie was a coward because if he imprinted on the egg and suddenly had big hots for Bella he also should have imprinted on the sperm and had the hots for Edward too until the honeymoon lol

Facts!

“Dumb sparkling vampires.” I started reading Twilight for my niece because she was interested. At first, I noticed the bad writing (god awful actually) and the horrible design of the vampires in it. Then I started noticing the abusive & controlling behavior Edward exhibiting as well as the stalking. I told my niece not to read it. It was a book that should’ve never been made period.

@@Legba85 A lot of people like escaping into a world where they don't have responsibility (because the power is given to someone else). And the fantasy of a man so enamored with you he's getting creepy is fun to some . . . as a FANTASY. My issue with Twilight was never that the tropes in it are abuse, more so that it was heavily advertised and sold to twelve year olds who have no clue what a normal or functional relationship is. Like I've had girls my age explain they got abused and thought it was normal because Twilight. Mind you, in a world where kids are explained what is or isn't abuse to the extent they can understand, this might not have been as much of an issue.

One of my parents works getting justice for victims of dv. They used twilight to teach me about red flags and abuse. I can’t enjoy the stories at all to this day

yess thats what i came here to say lol fans know whats wrong with twilight but haters only know about the romantic aspects which is the least troubling thing about it

Right, because there aren't numerous white characters in the film that are aggressive towards Bella. Nope, it's only the non-white characters . . . /s

@@derek96720 You missed the point horribly. The problem isn't that the white characters are never toxic, it's that the nonwhite characters are exclusively toxic or have these really shitty and racist associations. If there are shit roles and a good roles, and all the PoC in your cast are exclusively in the bad roles. Saying "What about white people? There are some white people in bad roles too." isn't a good rebuttal.

How are the tribal kids "bad roles"? What about their role is racist?

Meyer also notes that it’s the vampires pale appearance that makes them so beautiful…can you say yikes? 😬

I feel like this might be the most mormon thing in the books. Ie. Converts (vampires) turning "white and delightsom"

Sup another Das Mervin fan!

Anne Rice did something vaguely similar in her vampire chronicles which always bothered me. Ancient vampires who were people of color originally, most notably the vampire queen Akasha, are described as having porcelain white skin just because... the melanin faded away after a long time or something? I guess??

And thats why blade will always be a better vampire movie

Why not Cthulhu lol

@@cindys9491 That's too on the racist nose ha ha

Maybe a Vogon could read her some romantic poetry

Un fortunately I don’t think it’ll happen because the misogyny and pick me ness will always be louder. So criticism even the healthy kind is like throwing salt on an opened continuously gouged at wound. It’s the “ only give advice to those who asked you for it” thing. Just my thoughts on why people still don’t care to hear or watch an hour worth of this is why what you like sucks/falls short. I mean who wants to hear that for an hour 😂🤷🏽‍♀️

and then one day *ascend* to the state of "enjoy a piece of media for what it does right while also acknowledging its issues".

"The unexamined text is not worth reading" some old guy probably

It's definitely something that's not been helped by the role of algorithms. More and more I've clicked on a video, and the creator is regurgitating a simplified argument on a trending topic in hyperbolic terms. It's not that the nuanced thoughts like Princess's videos aren't out there, but for channels prioritising growth; there's an incentive to churn out, alarmist or emotionally heightened arguments that play to one side of a controversy. It's always a relief when you find someone new speaking thoughtfully.

There's a fine line. Media analysis in general is very fulfilling and engaging, but I will admit that as much as I defend and promote it, there is a large sub group of people who will claim media criticism to make personal attacks and harass people, and that's not what criticism is for. It's led to a point where people get attacked for engaging with criticism because readers now assume intent with critique as personal attacks, people still use critique to bash and harass readers, and people critiquing faithfully to the content to pretend everyone is engaging faithfully and with respect.

Like none of them like ever did a fake cute meet? That’s what kinda Lowkey bugged me. Could’ve worn contacts. Would’ve made the story more plausible.

Omg Das Mervin's sporking of Twilight is incredible!! I'm totally the same as you, I went from "vampires don't sparkle >:(" to "oh wow, this series actually is pretty creepy and problematic"

That blog was a huge contributing factor to my passion for and ability to so serious in-depth critical analysis. I didn’t like Twilight and similar books from that time to begin with, but the sporking gave me the language and know-how to express why.

DAS MERVIN IS A LEGEND!

True, the idea of vampires merely sparkling in the sun is the absolute ass end least of that series' problems

Are you conventionally attractive? And I don't mean your skin color.

Pretty sure they could have easily monetized visits to La Push if they wanted to, just like Forks did. It's their rez, so who's to blame for them not drawing in tourists? Because I know for a fact that La Push was an "it" destination for the twilight tourists.

Most Indigenous communities don’t want white tourists - actively work to get rid of white tourists because their money isn’t worth the damage and racism they bring. My opinion is based on me being Lakota

Now that should be on a T Shirt 😂

The age gap means nothing because Edward’s mind cannot age more than it did when he was turned. He will always mentally be 19 or however old he is. This is explained in midnight sun at least.

@@spacebar9733 forever together with a 19 year old teenager?! 😳 can you imagine? All the Drama 🤣🫠

​@@spacebar9733Imagine having the brain development of a teenager your entire life. If i was a vampire that would piss me off so bad

​@@spacebar9733it's Meyer's excuse to prevent it from seeming as grooming. Somehow, whenever it suits him and his passion for knowledge, Edward becomes fully capable of developing his brain, memory skills, coming up with newer and newer life experiences that have been giving him newer and newer insights. And yet he would still be like: (read in a sheepish tone) "i-i im just like any basic teen, im your boy next door, i never grow up mentally, im like exactly like you and your classmates Bella, im forever 17, my level of comprehension is the same as yours... don't look at my perfectly perfect school and uni grades, don't mention my brilliant achievements in medicine alongside Carlisle, it doesn't have anything to do with my brain, my brain never but NEVER develops! trust me plsssss! Can we date already?"

Hi, could you please explain what's wrong with the bit about "red/russet skin"? I'm new to these issues and on top of that, English is not my native language, so I grew up in totally different contexts and environment with completely different struggles. Thank you in advance!

It's the perfect Mormon child.

I can see why that would be terrifying, but I'd love to be able to skip my kids baby phase and get right to the part where we can atleast talk lol

It's funny because an exact similar child from Dune, Alia Atreides, is called 'monstrosity' by other characters in the book for these very same reasons.

As Contrapoints said in her latest video, Renesmee was never meant to be a child but a second self-insert for Meyer as she wanted to get with both Edward AND Jacob, and in Mormonism, poly centered around the woman isn't an option.

​@@vs6584oof

I like how he started the series questioning if his opinions on the series were influenced by misogyny and wanted to give it a fair shot only for him to go, yeah no, it's not just misogyny, they books are actually problematic.

​@@Rozdlc He was real af for trying to give it a fair shake. Glad he was honest enough to come to the only reasonable conclusion someone could have after plowing through that garbage

This phenomenon in any fandom is always so interesting to me! Especially when it comes to fic, there are so many instances where you read something and go 'ok author, I think it's been a loooong time since you've revisited the source material😅'

There's probably also some people who assume everything about the movies is also true to the books, since treating the movie version of something as the "default" version is way too common in general.

Fanon is one of the reasons why people keep interacting with the community, but, at least in the fandom spaces I'm part of, the many problematics aspects of the franchise are openly discussed and criticised :))

Everyone I knew who did like Twilight was of the team Jacob variety so me, a “cool girl” who read half of the first book and gave up because of the lack of plot, genuinely thought that the “natives are werewolves” plot line was /at least/ a liberal attempt to portray the vampires as evil colonizers, the werewolves as a sympathetic oppressed group, and the Cullens as not like other vampires white saviors which would still be problematic but you know, is common in mainstream media……imagine my surprise to learn that it was actually straight up white supremacist propaganda all along

Bella’s depression in new moon is viewed as annoying and disturbing by her “friends” (she doesn’t really have any outside of Edward and Jacob lol) however not much focus on that while Leah is annoying and is mean to other people and only makes it harder on Sam even tho he already feels horrible about it (not trying to hate comment just explaining something that should probably have been explained more in the books beyond a few throw away “Leah’s annoying about it” comments)

Whats weird is though, apparently the semen in male vampires is preserved until its "released" I guess, but why aren't the eggs? It's so easy to do, Stephanie

Bella wasn’t a virgin when she had Renesme…..

@@arkkon2740i don’t think it’s an issue with the eggs themselves. It’s seems like it’s the whole menstrual and pregnancy cycle. Fetuses are literal parasites until they’re born, so it would make sense that a vampire’s body that is perfectly self-generating and self preserving would make this change impossible. I’m not sure how blood works in their bodies either? isn’t it poison or something? How would that be sustenance for an egg? logic is definitely dodgy, i don’t think male vampires should be fertile either but i think the explanation is quite valid

@@morighani about the blood thing, they dont bleed. Their bodies definitely aren't hollow but when you crack them open its just rock in there. They're also really flammable I guess. The baby literally drank bella from the inside out so I guess they need blood to survive, but drinking blood is to the same effect so I see no reason why a vampire can't do this normally. It seems like every other bodily function is fine but it makes no goddamn sense God I hate how we're putting so much more effort into this than steph is 💀

Yeah like I think it puts a really interesting and human lens on the way the book is written, that it's this struggle for survival between human will and desire versus social expectations, and trying to find a way to fulfill one's fantasy but not hurt the self. That Stephanie so unconsciously laid out all these ways of wishing to be liberated from Mormon culture but also still sorta being a "good woman" in the cultural context of Mormonism to some extent

Ooop, this is the one

*Some* criticism back in the day was genuinely misogynistic, and media by women and for women has historically not been taken as seriously as media by and for men, but like most discourse, the actual valid criticisms gets drowned out by white people.

Both can be true. It’s not a contradiction. Like how some feminists say you shouldn’t be a housewife you need to work… telling women what they should be doing with their lives once again, the very thing we are against! Reinforcing the idea that nothing women do is right. And that women should only do what _____ claims is right. It’s just two sides of the same coin.

@@spacebar9733 this analysis totally misses the point of WHY feminists criticize aspects of 'traditional' family life. women rightfully pointing out the misogyny in the tropes and concepts that twilight espouses are not chastising the mostly female audience. they're criticizing the work for espousing those harmful concepts. women rightfully pointing out the potential downsides of 'traditional' family life are not chastising housewives. they're criticizing a model of living that can be unsafe for women, even while it's promoted as the best option for women. they're bringing attention to the fact that many women were historically barred from higher education and career success because the woman's role was in the home. nobody is saying women need to be this or that, or that women are stupid for enjoying this flawed piece of media, they are critiquing social structures of power that say that these things are universally positive for women when that is not the case.

it has very "You're the real racist by pointing out how the things I've done are racist" vibes

Last Unicorn delivers well on this!

@@LexyconDevil You mean the novel about a literal unicorn?

I thought I just had different priorities too as a teen then young adult...but...yeah I'm also aromantic-allosexual 😂 Never having a crush, being 28...I'm kinda sure I'm on this spectrum 😂 (outside friendship ones, that's different, and sexual attraction is fully compatible with friendship for me, and I had a dozen relationships, mostly fwb (and I NEVER was the one that falled in love) and before that I had some trials of a classic relationships that ended because yeah I was only feeling friendship, but not them, and I didn't understood everything at the time Now I can be quite sure, it doesn't take more relationships than fingers to feel love at least once for romantic folks x) So a story like you propose would still be relatable to aro folks, because having more stories where romance is not the goal will help a lot to break the romantic love normativity :)

I think something related that annoys me more is that when the heroine ostensibly isn't interested in girly things and doesn't need a man...but she still gets 2+ ideal boyfriend candidates obsessed with her. Both scenarios push the idea that initiating is entirely the job of the men.

@@paulgibbon5991 Totally. The Hunger Games would have been so much better without that.

Bella is Smeyer's self-insert and she seems to hate every girl with sex appeal because only innocence is appealing to mormons

JKR did nothing wrong

the first movie is legendary in a b movie arthouse indie weird so bad it's good kind of way. I genuinely have a lot of time for the first movie lol there was just something self aware in how it approached the awkwardness of the source material.

Thank you for that!

do you have any urban fantasy recs that don't have huge conservative subtext??? It's what's keeping me from the genre even though urban fantasy seems super appealing

​@@chrono4998 Off the top of my head Hidden Legends by Megan Linski & Alicia Rades. There's currently four series (potentially more later), three of them focus on various hidden magical societies in our world, the fourth sort of brings them together (actually arguably the fourth is also connected to a magical society as well, but that comes later). It sticks to the general formula of YA Urban Fantasy, but it approaches it from a more socially-conscious lense.

@@chrono4998 Honestly there aren't too many new series that really live up to the series that were created in the 2000s. I'm currently going through a large pile of books that I've had stocked up to read since the lock downs and the only series I can think of that came out in the last decade and has stayed consistently good without trying to push a particular political message is the Vampire Innocent series by the author Matthew J. Cox. Honestly, that series is far better than it has any right to be.

Completely agree

Isn't Brandon Sanderson also Mormon? But I get what you mean, the only way this could have been less subtle is if Bella actually called him "daddy". Anyway, I always thought that Angel from Buffy was more like the vampirical archetype that Stephanie Meyer was channeling into Edward, I don't think she was very successful because Angel does a lot of sh!t and is very nuanced... I guess she couldn't write "vampire with a soul", because that would have gotten her sued 😂 There's no Spike/bad boi archetype character in Twilight as far as I'm concerned... But that's the thing, Spike does all the stereotypical vampirical stuff like being very sexually charged, and actually seducing Buffy... No soul, and drinks blood from the can. Just a perfect foil for Angel. He'd literally killed the slayers before Buffy so you're genuinely curious about what's gonna play out and how it will play out. The main couple are star crossed, the alternative is "naughty", and there's actual tension watching while the shows episodic format and supporting characters make for a fantastic ride 😊 Also, Buffay the Vampire layer is the plot to BG3, and no one is gonna make me change my mind

@@samf.s.7731 Yes, Sanderson is mormon and it shows in his writing every bit as much as it does in Meyer's. As an exmormon I have very little tolerance for either author's work.

​@@Larissa-eo3pt Could you elaborate on this? There are clear themes of religion in his books (especially in regards to the Shards), but what parts of them specifically would you, as an ex-mormon (I assume you believe it has a harmful ideology, but again that's just my assumption) take umbrage with?

I don't know about minus...

your say reminded me of the protagonist in Stephen King's Insomnia. Ralph is an elderly man plagued by elderly men problems: short sight, a weak bladder, thinning hair, wrinkles, memory glitches, insomnia, fatigue, the grieving for a dead wife, nostalgia while friends die of natural causes. He is burdened with a hard mission related to saving the world and still he finds in himself to romance his friend Lois, an average looking elderly woman with a tummy, sagging breast and crows feet, that dyes her hair to hide the white on it. But the book is not a romance.

The double take I took when I saw this set 😂

@tolarianCommunityCollege good to see TCC is hosting visiting lecturers in Critical Vampire Studies

Part 2: Bella doesn’t learn how to make spaghetti or change a diaper or stay up all night rocking the baby to sleep or calm a tantrum or how to start a savings account for a trip to Italy (they can just go whenever they want bc they have endless money apparently) or go to marriage counseling with Edward or pay off the mortgage on their vampire penthouse…she just has all of that kind of…handed to her

Saaaame I'm so glad she's getting her flowers

Same here, this popped up in my feed because of the Twilight video

My friend and I have been rereading the books over the past month (read them originally as middle schoolers when they were coming out) and we call it "Mormon brain worms."

I’m not even religious but I don’t think she can just unlearn her entire upbringing for our comfort. It’s called religious indoctrination for a reason. We (the reader) should definitely acknowledge the religious details of the book but implying she’s supposed to hide it is an immature take. I think we should look critically and objectively, dissecting why these details are bad or important to note instead of just a condescending “ugh this dumb Mormon author trying to make me feel bad”. Haruki Murakami doesn’t even get this much hate lol

I listened to a podcast called Read it and Weep bc it was hate listening to twilight and bc these were just out of colleges cishet white men there were criticisms there tht i wasnt getting from other places tht focused on how creepy it was. I think i also just took in enough Tumblr posts btwn the years of 2011-2015 tht every single issue with the book is in my mental rolodex

@@spacebar9733 It sounds like you're saying she's not at fault for still holding those beliefs. I was raised mormon and the indoctrination is very real but it does not excuse me of anything. "..implying she's supposed to hide it.." I don't think that's at all what any of her critics are suggesting. We don't want her to hide her icky beliefs, we want her to recognize the ways they've shaped her worldview and to try to see the world differently. In other words we want her to grow. It's the opposite of an immature take.

​@@Shewhospeakesinverse wow, look how intelligent you sound 😂

also, and this is not related, we STAN a Cat's Don't Dance wall art!!!! 🥰

oh, and to speak of Taylor Lautner's casting. . . no. Same issue with Ian Ousley playing Sokka in the new live action Avatar netflix series, white boys should not be taking up native character roles. Personally, my bar for that is that you need to be visibly very native and have clear, verifiable claims to relatives who are part of a distinct community identity. Part of this issue also stems from casting directors who don't recognize the nuances needed to do proper native casting in TV and film roles. We need to get away from the Elizabeth Warren/Cher/Johnny Depps that self-identify their way into cultural appropriation, yet not so much that we exclude others who are impacted by how genocide corrupt information about native people and their family histories; let native people working in film be the guiding hand for who gets cast in native roles, so that native community can claim the roles for native community proper.

I never thought it was "gay" or anything for him to sparkle, but I thought it was way too tame to be considered some dramatic reason for the vampires to avoid seeing people. Like sparkly makeup is basically what happens to them. Nothing else about the movie really stood out to me. Other than maybe that moment where they lied about Bella like falling down a set of stairs and then out a window-that was hilarious.