The lighting and the shirt keeps making me think I'm watching an early episode of Star Trek.

The Dawn of Everything has been recommended to me by my Tutor in Archaeology and Ancient History. It’s my second undergraduate degree in Archaeology, the first was in Australian Prehistory. Well before the publication of Dark Emu, there was a burgeoning of evidence that our concept of simple Hunter gatherers trapped in some primitive, as yet unevolved, state was simply not sustainable. I I’m so glad that the big questions are finally being asked archaeologists.

In a world of uncouth loud braying, it's always so refreshing to hear nuanced, carefully tuned replies full of empathy towards opposing viewpoints. Many scientists even fail to embue their criticism with such grace.

BBC used to do good stuff like this. They may still do but BBC NEWS and politics have damaged their reputation. I don't switch the TV on

_"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently."_ - the late great David Graeber

Having worked with modern hunter gatherer and indigenous peoples all over the word I can confirm that all of them are just as intelligent as anyone, and more intelligent/skilled/kinder than most. I cant comment on the past however.

The discussions between the two Davids must have been mind-blowing. What a shame they couldn't both be here to be interviewed. But thank you Aaron, for introducing us to this intelligent, softly spoken, and insightful author and academic.

As a retired History and Politics teacher I am happy to say that I have rarely enjoyed a discussion so much. I ordered a copy of the. Book this morning and it arrived tonight. Sorry, I should have visited an independent book shop but I could not wait. Very inspirational. Thank you.

This discussion reminds me of a story Buckminster Fuller related. Per Fuller, when Europeans first encountered Polynesians the islanders were mocked because their number system only contained two numbers (yet they navigated great distances between islands). Of course the laptop I'm typing on works on two numbers as well.

This talk made me think deeper than I have in awhile. Thank you for your work. RIP David Graeber

Thank you Mr Bastani and Novara Media for this excellent interview. Great work Mr Wengrow, and heartened to hear you speak of David Graeber. Many of us miss his presence and intellect and are glad his remembrance lives on.

Why does this interview look like it's taking place on the USS Enterprise?

I loved the book. These issues are crucial and absolutely need to be included in our current discussion about how we want to live as a society. The simple idea that there are choices...

I've been reading Graeber's writings, and have already gotten my copy of His work with Wengrow. I found this interview stimulating, and thought that the host was exceptionally good - he offered great questions and kept an interesting conversation all the more so. Moreover, I found that not only does David Wengrow present himself as an excellent scientist, and teacher - but he is also a humble and wise soul as well. Such a well spent evening listening to this. Thank you for sharing - liked and subscribed!!

Gobleki Tepe may or may not have been a 'city', but Karahan Tepe nearby, which is much older, seems to be. It's larger, is full of residences, and is one of dozens of such settlements in a roughly 50 mile radius. The Tepes clearly made up a large, permanently settled pre-agriculture society, the only problem is we've hardly scratched the surface on the absolutely massive number of constructions in the region.

I'm looking forward to this. I'm reading 'The dawn of everything' at the moment. A Wengrow fan via David Graeber.

Wait, did I just find out that, around the time stone henge was built, the UK rejected farming practices from Europe and went back to foraging? Like a Neolithic proto-brexit?

As a fellow archaeologist, the book is incredible. Highly recommended.

why are we still stuck. intellectually in the 1700's? A: our history is written as a means of control, not an actual accounting, universities are where knowledge goes to die and become embalmed, when they say; " the birth of agriculture" it means the start of commercial, large scale, artificial agriculture. indigenous peoples were always planting, tending and harvesting, just not in a monoculture grid.

Downstream is Aarons schtick, long form one on one interviews addressing historical perspectives and putting them straight. ✨

From what I read and hear archaeologists are finding new information, often using modern tech, and moderating what they think. Its what makes science such fun.

Main lesson for me: question everything! And look for new information.

I left uni despite getting firsts in political philosophy because it drove me crazy that no one would acknowledge that it was built on nonsense. I even got called ‘disruptive’ for constantly questioning! How can you be a disruptive thinker in a university?

Great video and I personally feel it’s insulting to our forefather's to think they just sat on the ass and picked berries for 200,000 years. I wonder how many advanced civilizations have come and gone over that timeframe.

Ah man! you done and did it, reading "The dawn of everything' at the mo and it's game changing. Great shout with getting David on!

I feel something missing here is that farming does indeed seem to appear around 12 kya. But we have a lot of evidence for horticulture, and "garden farming", subsistence, small scale styles of food cultivation etc. happening for thousands and thousands of years before that.

One theory is that because of previous eras of more intensive farming, there was soil depletion by the time of the construction of Stonehenge. So, people may have been forced to partially abandon farming practices, as opposed to voluntarily giving them up.

Cereal growing in a fairly damp environment in the UK would most likely have led to a lot of failed harvest and famine, heavy rainfall destroys cereal crops, damp causes toxic moulds etc, I think it was dropped because it didn't work, saying that I think the book is extremely interesting and enjoyed this interview immensely

This was a very fascinating and thought-provoking interview. I will read his book. Though not entirely convincing, it certainly made some very valid points to be debated - and challenged - further. One of the recurring themes observed over my lifetime is that the study of history (in its widest sense) moves towards conclusions that chime with the cultural and political themes of a given time. Hypotheses emerge that reflect contemporary debate and this discussion was, at least to an extent, an example of this. Thank you Novara for this excellent content.

It is ironic that a video entitled "Everything We Think We Know About Early Human History is Wrong" wonders why KZfaq viewers are attracted to "pseudoarcheology" videos whose premise is that everything we know about early human history is wrong.

The problem with theories like this that radically depart from the conventional wisdom is that almost everyone reacts to them in the wrong way. There are some that jump on immediately wholeheartedly and a a lot who reject out of hand. Most of these types of theories will turn out to be incorrect, but some will be true and the only way we can tell which these are is to interact with and discuss them without immediately jumping on one side or the other.

I'm privileged for being able to watch this

The most important nonfiction book in my lifetime (58 years). All credit to Wengrow, but Graeber changed my life. That he died so young is unutterably tragic. Graeber's book on this history of debt is equally awesome.

I took a module in my history degree about pre-Columbian and Spanish America. We learned about how Tlaxcala had only recently been subjugated by the Aztecs, so was very happy to use the Spanish conquistadors to attack their hated enemy. But I don't remember it being mentioned that they were a republic, had a parliament, or were a democracy. Would love to read more on the subject.

That was a fascinating and thought-provoking discussion. Many thanks to you both.

With what we’re learning of global cataclysms, it is hard to rule out the possibility that there have been periods of advanced human development, perhaps multiple times, over the past several hundred thousand years.

We have come a long way in a couple thousand years. It’s not unreasonable to think there were other civilisations that came and went in the previous 100K years.

Aaron is one of the best journalists ever. It's always a pleasure to watch an ITW led by him.

Giving up agriculture isn't as surprising as it sounds. Compared with hunting and gathering, agriculture allows a lot higher densities of population at the cost of much more labour. It's not something people adopt because it makes them happy, but something they adopt to stave off mass starvation for a while. If population levels got greatly reduced by some kind of disaster, or if climate change made it easier to live by hunting and gathering, then you can imagine agriculture becoming temporarily unattractive.

People like this raise my hopes on Humanity. Thank you both for this interview!

We might also have a wrong idea of hunter gatherer societies because most of the ones around today (or in recent times) were pushed to less productive ecosystems (at least for humans). In fact, even in historical times there were some hunter-gatherer (or fisher-gatherer) societies which lived a semi-sedentary life. For example in the Pacific-Northwest.. they had villages in which they lived a good part of the year, going to other sites on a seasonal basis to exploit certain maritime resources. They had hereditary chiefs, slaves, etc.

What we "know" in the West isn't "received wisdom," but rather received speculation based on specious assumptions, most notably that of materialistic monism.

Thank you so much for this fascinating interview with David Wengrow. A wise and humble man who has decided to impart his wisdom upon others. Students are fortunate to have a dedicated and knowledgeable teacher. The homage to David Graeber at the end of the interview was truly sad. RIP.

Having done farming, hunting, and wild crafting I am convinced that success at farming requires more knowledge and skill than any other livelihood but hunting gathering.

Man, when a fantastic interviewer has a brilliant and erudite subject, you never want it to end. What a great conversation

This is quality content. Thank you Novara for opening up this vein in my brain.

What a coincidence. Started his book this week. Incredible stuff! Thanks for this. :)

I had a professor in college say similar things. That our history was manufactured.

The guy dresses like a Star Trek extra 😂

Absolutely brilliant guest. David Wengrow is a joy to listen to.

his voice is WAY to soft and relaxing.

Mr. Wengrow said Gobekli tepe was 9000 years old.....Isn't it closer to 12500 years old???

55:00 question; could urban humans have lived alongside primitive humans? answer; they still do today.

The last glacial period started about 115k years ago. Now, considering modern man has been around for 200k to 300k years, whose to say a stone age civilization didn't exist before this time, and was simply ground into dust by the mile high ice sheets? I find this particularly interesting as you can find precision megalithic stone work in places that the glaciers never touched, such as Peru. If you look at the ancient cities of Uruk and the like in Iraq, there is hardly anything but dust left. These cities are a mere 5-7k years old and were never glaciated. So...what might happen to a city after 100k years and smashed by glaciers?

I was watching this while ironing, had to stop the ironing and watch this fascinating discussion. Congratulations on this, out to get the book later today. Wonderful stuff!

David Wengrow is an amazing scholar, studied his work at univeristy and it is some of the most detailed and careful research i read. His book The Archaeology of Early Egypt: Social Transformations in North-East Africa, c.10,000 to 2,650 BC is incredibly beautifully illustrated and suprisingly readable for an academic work. It will totally change the way you think about Ancient Egypt.

still can't get over David Graeber's passing, we're missing such a brilliant mind. I cried the day I found out he passed. Good on Dabid Wengrow for bringing their amazing book's idea forward!

This is one of the most fascinating interviews I've ever watched.

Agriculture and " civilized" society has been around for more than a few thousand years. Much much more.

This is so strange to me. The way he characterizes what "we Europeans" say about the ancient past is completely foreign to me (a German, which certainly counts as European). I don't think I've *ever* seen or heard a comparison of those people with pre-human primates. That's so absurd! And of course, we know very little about the time before humans started to write things down. Though we know astonishingly much about some after that point. (A dog walks into a bar ... or a customer complaint about substandard product ... absolutely the same kind of people as live today!) Hmm. Nation states. becoming more enclosed. You know, I live in the Schengen Area, and as such, my experience has been the opposite. Maybe the real problem is trying to pour all of history (and pre-history) into one, all-encompassing, linear growth (or shrink) framework when actually, it's comprised of many small pieces where the directions of those developments change from piece to piece. Hmm. I'd argue that science actually emerges exactly from those "other systems of knowledge", by noticing how much they got wrong and looking for ways to improve them (those ways are today known as the "scientific method"). And I'd argue that while there were no lab coats (though sometimes religious robes), there were certainly laboratories, that is, spaces where people experimented - usually parts of their normal workspaces. Everybody has likely experienced experiments with food preparation in the kitchen. We know about Galen's pig bladder experiments, for example. Shiths, and before them, stone knappers, certainly experimented to come up with all the advanced techniques they ended up with. Farmers with grain and animals. Hunters with hunting techniques. Gatherers with gatherable plants. That's sort of obvious. Hmm. I think I've heard enough from Captain Kirk, here. G'bye!

If you think about the British Isles, the reason they would “turn their back” on agrarian farming is pretty obvious: where wheat was bred, there’s ten times less rainfall. Even in the south of France, you don’t need too much adaptation. But by the time you get to the Atlantic coast, you’re getting significantly different rainfall and light/dark conditions and much less predictable weather. A single weather event like three days of gusty, heavy rain would wipe out the whole crop of “naked” wheat & barley they had then. (They eventually bred much more sturdy type that need to be forcibly separated from the stalk when ripe.). The farmers who spread from Anatolia or the fertile crescent were growing things like lentils and dates which even now aren’t feasible for much of northern and western Europe.

Thank you for shining a light on this book and interviewing David. The moment I was done listening to this book I listened to it again and then again. I'm going for my fourth read because I am going to memorize every wonderful story and point they make. What a time to be a human! Despite the message that we humans don't change up our government like we did in the old days - in fact - it is more flexible than ever, for people who have the means and the knowledge. But that is another story ...

there is a lot of "must have beens" and ""raises the questions" in this presentation. Not a lot of Venus of Willendorfs to grab on to.

This is fantastic, more like this please and thanks

Aboriginal oral histories from all over the world have been saying this for hundreds of years. It's nice that open-minded people are finally understanding it to some degree and doing further research. Anyone interested in this should look into the writing of John Mohawk.

Fascinating interview, I am going to order that book right now. It reminds me of debates I have had about Aboriginal Australia. There is a continuity of art and culture lasting 60,000 years. I have found many people are irritated when I call this a "civilization" but what we call "civilization" in Australia is less than 300 years old, 0.1% as old as Aboriginal civilization. Manifestly, our "civilization" is rapidly destroying the planet and will not last for another 100 years, perhaps not even 50, or at least not without complete transformation. We are unable to think about deep time. Our modern obsession with novelty and a dogma of constant progress and economic growth has blinded us.

Can you imagine where we the conversation would be if everyone had the opportunities shown here!!

. Really enjoyed this interview. A pleasure to hear such eloquence. It's a sublime book. Mind blowing. The work of two beautiful minds . Two beautiful Davids. Thanks Aaron , great interview (your mind's also equally beautiful, of course)

Graham Hancock has been banging this drum for decades.

“Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence,” Carl Sagan

"we've become more enclosed over time" what a great point.

On the pseudo archeology topic. I think that part of it is a difference in interest. In this interview the interest is sociological, what were the habits behaviors and social structures of prehistory and how can we learn from them. If your interest is technology you may focus on buildings structure monuments and speculate specifically about them and how they were done. The difference in interests leads to the difference in focus and a desire towards alternative interpretations of history.

It's really fascinating that you're going to work with Forensic Architecture. Really looking forward to see the project you're doing together on Ukraine. I'll definitely go check their conference in Germany that you mentioned. Their work is just fantastic!

I stopped hanging my washing to go and buy the book while he was talking. Being an ancient history documentary addict, I've been pondering along these lines for the last few years. So many bedrock certainties still being based on the findings of a particular 'English Gentleman' class with all their bias. The young ones went adventuring and brought the stuff back, then a bunch of older gentlemen decided what it all meant and what was fit for the public to know about. (glibly out) I might get mostly corrected, with a few confirmations. Or I might just get firmly corrected altogether 😂. Either way my afternoon just got more interesting.

I’m interested in the time before the Internet. We think everything began with it but I think there may have been a society with nice people in good relationships, and everyone was a lot happier. It’s just a theory.

Historians are rarely geographers too. Which makes many of them miss obvious things like Europe being covered with forests (and marshes) near completely until 2000 years ago or so. What old poems remain from ancient times they all mention shepherds or hunters, who needed to travel to new areas due to grass depletion or lack of targets for hunts. Hard to imagine in these days, when borders are being barb-wired or even lined with land-mines. It was just as hard to imagine for later times, when migrations destroyed the Roman Empire or the Mongols ran over East Europe.

Really enjoyed this! (Nerdy confession: I watched it twice.) David Wengrow is a very engaging speaker. I got The Dawn of Everything for Xmas last year and loved it. So refreshing to hear alternative theories of history that are well-researched and supported by ample evidence.

Maybe the reason why very little happened from the origin of homo sapiens and the begin of agriculture (~12,000 years ago) is because there was a glacial age between them, that lasted more than 100,000 years

Graham Hancock was talking about this in the 90s. I wonder whether this guy will get smeared with slime for 30 years for going against the tide.

love it when Aaron does history

I liked the chat, but at the end is where I dissagree with David. For me the Sphinx and it`s construction is much more interesting than why lions and people were sacrifaced.

David Wengrow. You are doing such excellent work. Graeber he’s looking down from on high, applauding and bowing to you. Your clarity and ability to communicate such beautiful and subtle nuance behind these revolutionary commonsense human theories it’s so important, edifying and calming. Your gentle incredibly well informed ministration of these lofty topics is such a gift to all of us, to all of humanity. Thank you, sincerely. Bravo. Onward. Thankful 👏👏👏😌🙏❤️ Great Job, Aaron !

Another great interview. So interesting. Thanks Novara.

The inferior performance of native military forces vs european was not mostly due to technology directly. The natives quickly began to acquire and use firearms, but this didn't change the military situation much; their disadvantage was large due to applying pre-gunpowder military doctrine to a battle including gunpowder, and a lack of professional soldiers in most of the tribes.

The Dawn of Everything is amazing, it touches on so many other subjects.

So sad and very very strange, David Graeber in his prime, only 40 or 50, so insightful, deeply humble genuinely really nice guy.super intelligent. A sudden shocking loss, the two Davids were just great together in interview

The Sphinx, The Osirion, The valley Temple, The pyramids on the giza plateau, The bent pyramid, The Sarapeum, all far older then the 4th dynasty! The simple truth is that no Egyptologist has ever reproduced anything close to the prescision with multiton granite stones using the tools and techniques the Dynastic Egyptians had at their disposal. The few sparse undertakings of this kind failed myserably, and show how borderline diffucult these feats are, even if you use modern techniques. Loved this talk !!

You should include a reading list in the description of these dialogues. Very insightful.

I really enjoyed the interview and look forward to reading the book. But my recent reenergized interest in archeology has been spurned from finding the books of Graham Hancock. His books on the conquest of Mexico is a dramatic novel which provoked thought and interest in me into archeology and prehistory. You may call Mr. Hancock a “pseudo- archeologist”, but I wonder if Mr. Wengrow would have published this work without the challenge of Mr. Hancock. In any event I am thankful to Mr. Hancock and also look forward from learning from Mr. Wengrow.

Its interesting that very little has been said about the interlocking wooden platform discovered very recently in Africa. It was dated at 450,000 to 500,000 years ago. Homo Sapiens has been dated at up to 300,000. It raises so many questions about intelligence on this planet.

Wonderful interview! I love these in depth discussions (I loved the Chris Packham and Oliver Bullough ones too), and this one especially, as I read the Davids' book Dawn of Everything this summer past, so it was great to hear a discussion of the book's main topics. I keep recommending the book to people, but am now able to share this, which is a much better recommendation!

I can see how the father's and mother's, brothers and sisters of the sacrificial victims would have started a trend in walking away from Cahokia. There's a book and a movie in here. The growing fanaticism of the priesthood that leads to the start of the practice, and the point where those carrying the cost reach the breaking point.

I stumbled on this and was half expecting a Gonzo Hancock rant of thoroughly dubious veracity. What a delight to hear such a switched on, thoughtful, modest yet deeply informed discussion throwing a genuinely refreshing light on archaeology proper.

Wonderful session. More like this please :-)

I have always been fascinated with archaeology, astronomy and how we came to have the religious teachings that have evolved into the belief systems we have today. This led me on an amazing journey to understand what experts in other disciplines are making of our past. You can't leave this research only to Archaeologists Aaron. Listen to them yes but then ask the opinion of Geologists like Randall Carlson and Engineers like Christopher Dunn. Ask them all how the beautiful 30,000 granite pots and vases, found under the step pyramid, were made and how the huge granite underground boxes in the Serapeum were made.

20:00 traditional political theories not based in reality 29:00 native societies much more democratic 35:00 native impact on enlightenment 37:40 idea of democracy and freedom attributed to native Americans by enlightenment writers 39:40 native mounts 48:40 Aztec republic 54:40 four species of humans

It's just as well David never pursued his acting dream; there's only room for one Martin Freeman.

While this was very interesting, it is a shame so much time was given over to maligning Graham Hancock's 'Ancient Apocalypse' netflix series (without ever naming it). Given some of the discusssion, I was also surprised not to hear Jane Jacobs' "Cities and the Wealth of Nations: Principles of Economic Life" mentioned in the context of theorising about cities coming before agriculture.

I'd love them to invite Graham Hancock on at the same time.. the conversation would been electric 😂

Brilliant! Thanks for bringing this guest!