If I am correctly interpreting the 4113 in your signature I can say this with confidence: A young boy is a theory and an old man is a fact. Well done.

California Highway Patrol? CHP? Disgusting tyrant 🤢🤮🤮🤮

@@RemingtonArmy-Wow‼️🫡

Overshooting?

What is the significance of the 4113?

Yep, dad gum it, they thought they had it till they didn’t.

If the PIC would let the SIC have the plane would that have helped ?

Seems like it was the SIC who was mentally committed to getting on the runway despite a very unstable approach. He also likely activated the spoilers, which combined with the bank angle ultimately caused the plane to turn into a PSFO (Plane-Shaped Falling Object) @@unfaix

@zombieman9509 ah thanks for clarification, I was confused as to who was in charge.

Indeed, exactly!

I am so sorry for the loss of your twin brother. Thank you for sharing.

Get over it.

@@rudybishop9089 shut up Mason.

I’m sorry for your loss, even all these years later. In a way loss gets better with time, but in another way it gets harder. I hope you’re having a great life, just sorry you’re not having it with your twin brother still here on earth.

@@rudybishop9089well aren’t you a nasty little piece of work!!!!! 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

Who was John Dunn? I’m guessing the SIC?

@@OMG_No_Way John Dunn Dallas, TX from what I found in his obituary - Rainer Capital, a commercial real estate investment firm, is this a SIC ? I'm a former Architect lived in Sacramento, CA 33 years ago, with an interest in this crash. 1st officer & another passenger from Minnesota

I've known a lot of dunns. Every one has been a pretty solid person

Dunn was a passenger. NOT one of the pilots!

This wasn’t a medical flight , you might be thinking of the Lear jet crash .

My precise thought also. On approaches like this and in an aircraft like this, you don't want to change horses (approaches) in the middle of the stream.

@@DrJohn493 and in visibility conditions they had.

Did a straight in on 29 the day before in a 310. That was quite a decent coming over the top. Barely VFR because of the smoke. Looks like the role of PIC was not firmly established.

My thoughts exactly.

Exactly. Pride got the best of them. If I would've been sic on that flight I would've looked at the pic and said, "I don't like this at all, we are rushed and behind this airplane, let's just go around, we all want to live to see tomorrow".

Good for you and also your instructor!! If things don’t look right on landing go around, regroup, and try it again. Safety first, always!

Nice

Good on you. I have a little bit of float plane flying experience and there's a passage in the book, "Flying A Floatplane" by Marin Faure that says that there is no shame in going around as many times as you need to make sure you are going to have a safe landing. He goes on to say that the safest place for your airplane is in the air, aside from perhaps a hanger, so take your time in doing a safe landing.

This is good news. Juan out here, saving lives. Safe landings my friend!

Every approach is a go around with an option to land.

Well, they were certainly experienced - but not as a crew together! Juan described the 'inverted command gradient' very well. Thanks Juan for another excellent accident analysis!

Pilots are, quite rightly, taught to operate aircraft in a rigorous and disciplined manner. One of the consequences of this approach is that they may not know how things look and feel when they are in trouble and therefore they may not be quick to recognise and react to danger. I know *exactly* how it feels to take the fast left hand bend on the local main road too fast because I have done it several times, but I have no experience of anything equivalent in an aircraft, or even in a simulator. I can't help wondering whether professional pilot training should include the opportunity to do it badly wrong in a simulator.

It's not mind boggling when you look at the bigger picture: it's during covid, very likely these pilots were suffering the economic impacts thereof. They just got hired by a new startup company with pressure to get this new plane chartered and in their fleet, and the primary investors are in the back. In their minds they're perhaps thinking "If I go around the man and his wife are going to wonder if I'm competent to fly for them"

@@mcpr5971 It still boggles my mind regardless.

That's really not everything. I mean, there was a stall warning. How can two pilots ignore a stall warning and initiate a TOGA plus go around, plus cleaning up the airplane, in such a situation? I don't get it. Has there been a history of those pilots flying regularly right to the edge of a stall - so they get the stall warning all the time or what's the cause for that?

“Normalisation of deviance.”

@@nickboylen6873 Indeed, exactly.

And that can certainly be applied well beyond the aviation world. From driving a vehicle to even making poor short term business decisions that one can get away with...until one day it comes to bite you in the ass.

Complacency

@@Nfarce Yes, indeed.

This is great advice in so many different realms of life. Sometimes just backing off, taking a minute to clear your head and rethinking your plan makes such a world of difference.

What is CRM ? people can't talk any more with full sentences no wonder there is confusion

@@funcisco1504 Crew resource management. Basically divvying up responsibility. Who is doing what and when. Also, while I share your frustration with acronyms, CRM is a very common one in aviation and your snark was unwarranted.

I have a few friends working in the operating room who have described to me their attempts to implement CRM, briefings, and checklists. It sounds like they’re making an effort to implement CRM/TEM at least at their hospital.

Gotta love that Mr. BLANCO, which means "White", when his real name is Browne!!! O.k., just a little irony! But it was a great report .

@@richwightman3044 Sometimes just a sharpie mark on the right or left side makes all the difference to prevent cutting off the wrong leg.

if we keep watching this channel we will never become pilots LOL

I am a retired IT guy, operations. I spent 40 years troubleshooting problems and operating equipment. And that ground-based hectic environment I learned to do things in the right order and try to avoid getting cute. You try to be cute and do too much at once you end up with egg on your face.

My instructor told me "flying is boring, there is a right way, and that's the only way, so you do it the same every time, you don't just make it up as you go along"

​@@JohnRodriguesPhotographer I was a recording engineer and later also developed and managed large software applications and both were very much like flying, although safer, except for careers. When you get bored or tired and hotdog it, or succumb to an impatient client even when you've lost situational awareness, hoping for the lucky outcome, disaster recovery is inevitable, to whatever degree possible (same for those who won't test). But in the air, lives are lost, tragically. But up there or down here, you can *always* go around. My admiration for those who not only pilot, but also develop software for aviation and spaceflight, and take responsibility for lives, which I could never do. At the end of a hard day, I could always get a grip by saying, "At least it's not life or death. No one died." I can't imagine otherwise.

@@gasdiveI think this mindset can cause more accidents. It makes you think "I'd never do that, that would never happen to me," but we are all human and there are gray areas and times with external pressures, which is why even the best pilots can get into trouble. Flying requires humility and good decision-making as much as skill and experience.

The tight loop caused the problem. They should have been far further out, giving themselves time to descend to their minimums at the correct speed, before entering a long glideslope. In this situation, minor horizontal moves to align with the centerline of the runway are easy, but trying to do everything at the same time is dangerous and likely to fail.

@blancoliri0-- yes sir?

@@charliemike5813 That's not an official account of this channel, it's a spam bot. Just click on the Report toggle (the three vertical dots on the right of the comment).

Right seat was most likely evaluating the left seat, as he was a new hire with less overall experience, new to the aircraft type, and a foreign national to boot. It happens all the time. As Juan said, when things get sideways, whoever has a better handle on it needs to take over with clarity and purpose. It's just not completely clear in this case that either one of these pilots was going to do the right thing here---level the wings, apply high power, clean up the plane, and execute a missed approach. Poor CRM got them into a very bad place---low and slow, very dirty with gear, flaps, and spoilers all out, and trying to horse the plane back to a runway they had well overshot---but even the right seater was still talking about trying to salvage the approach up to the very end, not talking about getting the hell out of there and regrouping, as they should have.

@@DerekJohnson-us7vy Indeed, exactly!

Be safe. There are old pilots and the bold pilots. There are very few old and bold pilots.

My impression was while listening to Juan reading the CVR transcript: Only Holes, no Cheese.

Superb Channel he's an utter Professional and Everything a great Captain Embodies.

Sorry you had to witness that - especially while driving.

​@@baaa4698I don't know if you are in the industry and if so your experience level, so excuse me if this is something you already know and you were asking for other reasons, but I was that low time captain occasionally flying with more experienced first officers early in my career. I did fly with some that would do exactly this, where they make it clear that I was the pilot in command. I always appreciated it because when there is an unbalanced crew like this, it can be intimidating being the less experienced captain. There is always a bit of time to fly together to feel out the dynamics between the two crew members. Is the more experienced first officer going to push his experience level aggressively and try to act as pseudo captain from the right seat? How do I command this crew dynamic as a less experienced captain so as to be in charge, but not feel like a phony? So, senior first officers that had significantly more experience than me that would set the ground rules right away on the first day like this person did really helped me in those times. They would make it clear that even though they were more experienced than me, I was pilot in command. Then I would reply to them that I value their experience and am open to learning if they had suggestions. This put me at ease, that they respected my position as captain, and we could work together as an effective team. Another reason this was helpful, because unfortunately it didn't always work that smoothly in these types of situations, hence the appreciation for this type of preflight communication. There definitely were pilots in that scenario where the first officer with the greater experience didn't respect the captain's position. In these situations there tended to be two people, both working like they are in charge and a "too many cooks in the kitchen" situation would occur. Both pilots worked independently in their side of the flight deck, with very little communication, and the crew resource management would start to break down.

@@baaa4698superiority complex

@@baaa4698 what @flyinfella said.

Exactly, a ship can’t have two captains. Well, it can… at the bottom of the ocean.

Yes. And yes. I work hard to never stack the deck against myself, not even a little bit, let alone in a do-or-die type scenario. Very sad.

Amen

As a GA pilot with complex airplanes I can attest to “oh I can fix this” rather than going around. Sometimes it’s an overconfidence of skills or the situation at hand.

This is why you brief your departure and arrival (and should do so even in a small & simple GA aircraft, and even when flying solo). By verbalizing your plan in an emergency, you mentally plant the seed for the option, and give yourself a chance at being able to select the option during the fleeting moment when it becomes available/necessary. After earning their licenses, most Pilots (and I say this as a pilot) are not generally in the habit of practicing go-arounds or missed approaches - unless its for a BFR or a check-flight. So we're not generally thinking through these options and aren't mentally "spring-loaded" to put them into action.

​@@kaimoenck3154yep! you can fix a lot of bad approaches when you have 5 times the required runway. But take that mentality into a bigger plane and you got a problem.

EGO.

Another factor many people don't consider, especially those who aren't pilots (and even some who are single engine GA pilots), is how fast everything is happening in a plane like this that's moving at almost 200mph. You don't have the luxury of covering this distance at 70mph like you would in a car.

I personally think this type of approach should be banned. Hightened performance anxiety from crews operating small charter airlines under high pressure

Gravity…it’s the law!

With Darwin as his FO

Well, at the end, we know it wasn't Bernoulli.

There were four passengers on the flight who lost their lives.

​​@blancoliri0-- okay how do we do this? Much respect for you. I'm just a ex ag pilot with 4000 hrs fixed and 1000 helo. Always wanted to go to air tankers but now just to old. Plus 3 crashes and a few wire strikes I didn't count. But I lived to tell stories. I was also the chief pilot of several ag ops and had to drug test myself. Funny how that works. I can relate to the power of someone who you think is more experienced. However my experience was working for operators who weren't pilots. They were constantly pressuring me to fly in bad weather or busted up aircraft. Actually quite a ag service in Georgia and the owner attempted to hire my friend down the street. He asked why I wouldn't fly, the aircraft had a busted exhaust manifold. He told him he wouldn't fly it either. Got rehired that day and the aircraft got fixed. Just got to know your limits.

The charts had been hacked by communist rebels just hours before their flight. As to the seeming lack of synergy and grasp of the severity of the position they put themselves in, it's been surmised by pentagon offcials that either one, or both, of the pilots may have been covert lizard people.

Had an instructor once who would have us “draw” the distance rings on a circling approach, and it did present a nice picture on the displays for pilots to follow. Problem is that not all FMS’s, especially older systems,(Flight Management Systems) are capable of drawing these circles. But nice to use it if your aircraft can😁

@@johncox4273 True, they don’t all have the ability, but this aircraft with Proline 21 FMS does. Makes this maneuver so much safer. In fact, draw your radius from all thresholds to create a safe maneuvering area in case of a missed approach. Hmm, what a great addition to ForeFlight