A mantra, of sorts. Ultimate respect for everything and everyone.

“CIGARTIP” controls, Instruments, Gas, altimeter setting, run up, trim, interior, prop. This is said out loud after the paper checklist.

This! You gotta double-check the 'kill me' items when cleared for T/O. I always re-trimmed for takeoff while taxiing after each landing.

Thank you for your post.

@@jiyushugi1085I always taxi with all trims in the neutral positions.

Same with me in a Twin Comanche but occurred as I raised the flaps after take off. That big flying stabilator is pretty heavy when mistrimmed.

This is what I fear... first 200-300 feet off the ground was uneventful.... either she was overcome by the force at that point or that is when the trim ran away....

was that an actual AP error, or one of the situations juan has covered many times on this channel, where someone is flying in icing conditions with the autopilot on, unaware of the AP putting in more and more trim as it adjusts for ice buildup, then the pilot is caught off guard when disconnecting the AP?

​@@shodancat10000

@@shodancat1000 You wouldn't get icing that quickly just after take off.

It wasn't and accident. It was an incident cause by human fault, which is always the cause of incidents, other than acts of nature.

@@molonlabe9602 Maybe so, but we are all Human don't forget, and we all make mistakes, am sure you have made many yourself! This beautiful young woman paid the price with her life. Please show some respect, am sure she would never want to injure anyone on the ground or loose her own life, due to such a tragic error.

Good flight schools teach students not just the items of the preflight and where they are but what right or wrong looks like. Unfortunately most training aircraft have lots of wobbly parts (a working, accurate fuel gauge that tells you more than "not empty" in a C172 is a rareity IME). Stay safe.

I mean isn't the flight control surfaces not something you check anyway? So such a massive out of trim setting should be obvious - shouldn't it?

Shut up if you have no knowledge of something ​@@RubenKelevra

@@RubenKelevra you might think that, but as a student doing a preflight, with little experience, you wouldn’t know better. It doesn’t take much tab angle to push that elevator.

@@acirinelli but we're talking about a full trim up situation. That's 28° deflection on the flight control surface. That should be glaringly obvious that something is amiss here. If student pilots don't learn to check the flight control surfaces properly for functionality before flight, the training should be modified to make sure they do.

Thank you for not joining the crowd screaming "pilot error." Let the investigation continue.

"flew for Ken Borek" is a top endorsement all by its own. I met those guys years ago in the Antarctic. To fly in those conditions, only the best are taken.

agreed. also did not know her but did some research. trim runaway is a distinct possibility. has one myself on downwind once and it was a battle to get the thing on the ground in one piece. blessings to her family and friends in their grief.

@TootSocialTV..I Just finished watching the entire video a second time and with captions on. I couldn't find where she was refered to as a social media "influencer". For about two seconds beginning at:39 in the video he says "she is pretty well known on social media and immediately goes into her recently acquiring her ATP and then her total flight time and time in type. Could you please show me at what time in the video did he use the word influencer. Show me soon or be forever branded as just another provider of using disinformation to sully the reputation of a well respected and accomplished You Tube contributor.

I'm sorry, her loss is sad..but her talent was in adventure photography, guiding, and loving life..She was very much on Social media.. But flying a twin engine Navajo solo without the utmost focus will bring good people down..Us living pilots know that..RIP Natalie.

Thanks Peter for your feedback. Do you have any more suggestions to those you are about to fly the PA-31?

I've *never* understood a design where the trim system can overpower the pilot.

Low time SEL private pilot is asking, "Do emergency procedures include MASTER OFF to counter an erroneous trim motor?" Seems quicker than sorting out circuit breakers, but causes other problems (many of which are lesser evils during day VFR).

That sounds more likely scenario than missed checklist item

That sounds fucking terrifying. And I wonder if someone like a young woman with less upper body strength would have been able to recover it at all

I think the 1970 PA39 Twin Comanche had a similar Trim Switch as the Seneca II and I also experienced runaway trim when I trimmed on takeoff after raising the flaps. Like you said, it took a lot of strength to overcome! I never liked that particular double switch on the Piper Twins. Did the Navajo have the same switch?

I can believe it. First flight of the day I always used to run the trim through its full range and physically check the trim wheel position in neutral before the pre-flight so I could then confirm it was neutral on the actual surface during the external walk-around. That's not something I would do on an aeroplane I had just flown and was about to fly again straight away e.g. during a fuel stop, but every time when someone else had touched the aeroplane

Isn't the flight control surfaces not something you check before takeoff? So such a massive out of trim setting should be obvious - shouldn't it?

@@harryspeakup8452 That is a solid tip. Thank you for sharing that. I will incorporate that into my pre take off checklist. You are a gentleman sir.

too ,much self-confidence

she was Canadian? That means she was a fascist so why was she allowed to fly in the USA?

@@jerryeinstandig7996 How the hell would you know if she had too much confidence? I will tell you who has too much confidence as they sit behind their key board so bravely. YOU!

Nearly same feeling of embarrassment as forgetting to switch off yaw damper when hand flying an approach.

if you need so much trim-up for the flare how do touch-and-goes work? Do you frantically retrim after you touch?

And I thought a C172 has a very small (forgivable?) trim tab. Surprised it had a such dramatic effect.

@@tim1398Not sure what this guy is talking about, landing trim should be almost the exact same as take off trim. You hardly need to fool with trim on a touch and go if at all.

I just posted a longer comment, but I had this happen to me as a student, but it was set "correctly", the indicator was just broken/wrong so it was not actually correct at all.

1..2..3.

@@marksantora9820 yep, I used to use 3 1/2 turns.

That's interesting. How does the indicator become un-calibrated?

@@hawkdsl I don’t know.. old heads back then never would trust it and taught the new guys the same.. that was almost 40 years ago 😂

My first commercial bird, we had two in the fleet, both of them had the same issue. Loved the machine super stable, but ended up flying it out of trim both ways so many times. Just nature of ops in the old days. Looking at it now it was far from being a reputable ops, but the flow had been drill into me flaps up and spin that wheel and count. Later on moved to a turboprop that was actually younger than me, to be told after my first landing what the f. are doing with that trim?

Years ago I stopped by the Sedona airport for lunch. Radio traffic was on a loud speaker. A Cesna Skymaster took off with the tow bar attached. Once notified, he circled and shut down the front engine, I assume to minimize damage with the prop/towbar. Unfortunately he then could not maintain altitude as it's a warm sunny day. While desperately trying to restart the front engine, he kind of landed just off the runway, plane heavily damaged, no serious injuries - except a young lady who was a passenger joined us - said something about bus tickets

@@RealJustinTyme I flew the Navajo out of Sedona on Grand Canyon tours. Sound familiar?

All chains have a weakest link.

Injuries galore eh..do you think that guy will ever walk again?

@@gpilotgary1 Beautiful country. Never got tired of all that red rock.

I learned that when i got to fly a c-130 sim at Miramar. Sim instructor told me to use the trim switch to move up and down. I was trying to strong arm it before he told me what to do. I am not a pilot btw

@@user-cl5zy5qn5d Still, knowing how much force it took was probably a good thing as it at least gave you an idea for future reference.

I never understood until in my airline training I had the opportunity to see a runaway. It happens terrifyingly fast and if you don’t respond immediately you can easily become a passenger along for the ride.

This video is a Cessna 310

You must watch Hoover to be using the Swiss cheese analogy.

Several folks use the swiss cheese, including Juan.​@@a.n.7863

@@OOpSjmNeither the current video nor the one being described are about a 310. What are you referring to?

⁠@@a.n.7863Swiss cheese is a common expression regarding accident investigation. It’s been a thing since long before Hoover’s channel.

I'm not a pilot, so I'm shocked at how many comments there are like yours. I've been a motorcycle rider for 48 of my 61 years and I think y'all are crazy.

I'm not a pilot but I'm guessing if near full up trim is normally used to make a landing easier then the pilot would need to be fast getting the trim back to normal on a go-around.

@onemoremisfit never used much trim on landing.. Imho, trimming for flare is a bad habit. I always trimmed for stabilized approach though.

@ronjones-6977 mechanical and electrical components fail even on your motorcycle. We can't pull over and stop. 25+k hrs and 40 years as a professional pilot. Stuff happens.

@@onemoremisfit near full up trip is not routine for landing.

Even influencers?

For the low amount of hours the pilot had on the plane, she seemed too overconfident and missed the trim ie never completed the checklist

Yep. And the longer you work with whatever dangerous equipment it is you work with, be it a plane or or industrial equipment, saws, whatever, familiarity with the equipment and all your experience can dull your awareness and mitigation of danger. It is essential to be disciplined and aware.

Sadly, this is true. Even the most capable, competent and conscientious make mistakes. Like the sea, the sky and gravity is brutally unforgiving.

@@mgratkThe Navy taught us that complacency kills!

... for the very same reason you don't leave the car in 'D' when you park it. Also force of habit always turn OFF fan, A/C, lights, radio, etc., before switching off the engine; and making sure switches and settings are OFF before starting the engine; to minimize load and make starting easier.

@@paulsherman51 All modern cars that I'm aware of bypass all the electrical load except what is necessary to start the engine.

Which airplane at the big airline are you referring to?

@@157294 All of them. Resetting the trim after landing was on the checklist of all aircraft types. It's also on at least one PA-31 checklist.

That is never a fun thing to watch. :(

Wow, thanks for posting your experience. If you read my post you will see that I don't believe she forgot the trim in the checklist. I think she had a runaway as you did. Great work getting the plane back on the ground safely. I had a runaway Stab on a 767 in the middle of the night about 8 years ago, but was a non-event as we stopped it quickly when disconnecting the auto-pilot. Having lots of GA experience as well, I can relate to what you went through. Sent chills through me when I read it!

V good advice.

I used to fly a PA-31 in Lidar work. I agree with this post that you are never trimmed full nose up in the flare. It is marginally above neutral and the yoke is not heavy in the hand right to touchdown. I'm a great fan of Juan, brilliant analyst, but I think he just read the NTSB prelim to us here and left it at the easy out. The airplane climbed to 200 feet and flew level the entire length of the runway until a climb was initiated. If full nose up trim was the cause, that would have been evident from liftoff. Full nose up trim does not cause barrel rolls. I've raised elsewhere the possibility of a seat slide back on pitch up, or less likely, on the addition of takeoff power. That scenario would account for all of these observed behaviors. Feet gone from the pedals, initial sharp pull up as the yoke arm straightens and then the choice is either climb or let go, and fighting to grab it back which becomes hopeless when the rolls start. Countering my view, which is merely a scenario to be considered, was a statement that Hos aren't like Cessnas, that the spar shortens the backward travel. The question is whether, even if it slid back to the spar, any pilot would still be able to exercise full control and keep hands and feet on the controls.

@@Doodles1947 The seat slid is excellent reasoning, so much so, I'm inclined to believe this was the cause. Hopefully, the seat is not damaged extensively from the crash to investigate that possibility.

@@Doodles1947 Interesting comment. I also noticed flight was stable initially. I have had seats move, you have to keep your cool and then light touch the yoke. If you try to use it to lever you seat forward, Uh-oh! Is there a chance this is an elevator issue. There are ADs out on the elevator, and SBs and SLs. Loss of control can occur due to bungee failure, cracking, and I think also there is a torque tube issue too. A couple of others. I am starting to get a bad feeling about this. I am getting annual next couple of week and going to have a big look at the elevator. The cracking is microscopic

@@Doodles1947 Maybe she was trying to control the aircraft via the trim after losing the elevator main

@@hawkdsl I took the time a few minutes ago to talk to an old friend who is ex TSB in Canada. He has investigated two fatals due to seat failure. Neither were a slide back on the rails, but a failure of the seat back. The pilot was unable to control the aircraft in both cases. It is certainly an emergency when that happens. Life is at risk and recovery can be very difficult. If this happened, the pilot would have had her hand on the yoke, and likely thumb on the trim control. Right hand on the throttles. If it is not initiated by initial acceleration, and this doesn't appear to be as the solution is to pull back the throttles while the aircraft is below flying speed, then it would take a pitch up to change the deck angle and start the slide or cause the seat back to fail. As she goes back, she pulls back as the yoke is all she has to hold on to in that split second. This exacerbates the problem as the seat moves beyond the physical limits of her reach. She may be inadvertently activating the trim switch through this, and inducing roll with her hand still on the yoke. The one thing that needs explaining in the context of this speculative cause is the position of the trim actuator rod. The first quite plausible explanation is that through this ordeal she started with thumb on the trim, indeed may have been trimming when it happened, and her grip tightened with the nose up trim being actuated for a period. The other possible is not born out entirely by accident investigation experience. It is true that sometimes a report will include a statement that the position of controls in the wreckage results from cable stretching in the crash sequence. My friend says that a cable pulling at the actuator end may result in a circular motion imparted to the threaded rod. However, for that to happen, one of the two cables must have broken. Perhaps others may have a direct answer to this point, but it seems that this was a very small woman. There is a photo in Juan's video of her in the cockpit. She is jammed as far forward as she can go. I take it that is so she can reach the rudder pedals. Even if the Navajo seat doesn't have the backward travel of a Cessna, she doesn't have to go very far back before she does not have effective contact with the pedals first, and secondly the ability to effect downward pitch. And, it may be something entirely different.

We are human beings. We make mistakes like everyone else only our mistakes can cost us and others life. We have to check our egos at the curb. This is a very humbling occupation indeed. Establishing a dialogue and admitting our shortcomings is vital. Thanks for the kind comment!

Your problem with chicks are over, too.

@@sludge8506too funny… I suspect he’s waiting to use #2 for his colonoscopy next month!

Please don't do anything crazy while wearing it. Juan's channel is not as strong as Matt Carriker's.

@@ronjones-6977 Or Dan Gryder’s.

🤔🤔😲

I have very little Navajo time, mostly 414, 421, Aztec, etc. Never encountered that, but had one questionable trim time in a Baron58.

@@hotrodray6802 I have encountered that in most PA 28 that I have flown and I also experienced it in several Cessna 172s. After initiating an auto pilot check according to the checklist I often find the elevator trim, dialed all the way up or down, which means it is trying to seek, an altitude. In any case, it’s always safe to include all trim checks prior to taking off. This will include elevator, aileron if equipped and rudder if equipped. Fly safe!

I watched it happen. She was struggling to keep it level. Nose kept pulling up and she would push it down. Was like watching a small roller coaster after the initial steep climb and barrel roll. The plane wanted to go up. The image has haunted me.

Please reread your comment. Pushing with full nose down trim? Did you mean to say pulling or that the trim had been set to full nose up? The only reason I can think of to push with full nose down trim would be to unload the elevator to readjust the trim. It's unusual to have to do this, but maybe.

And doing so in such factual yet highly thoughtful and compassionate manner as always, it's really the chief reason why JB deserves that Ed. R. Murrow award for exemplary journalism.

Good for you reporting to the NTSB. They may get back to you. These investigations take a long time. You can look for my post for a better understanding of what may have happened. Just my "Speculation" as a professional airline pilot.

@@spencerrobinson5385 Thank you. I don't know how to find your post.

@@Liars-Bane Here it is, but should be near the top of comments...... @spencerrobinson5385 1 day ago (edited) I love the content this channel brings but I have to speak up as a professional airline pilot of 36 years and roughly 23,000 hours. (Former military pilot and rotary wing as well). The NTSB has not put out a final report and I am surprised that Juan would "suggest" that this accident was, or may have been caused by not following the checklist - and reading the thread many have grabbed onto this idea when "None of us" actually know the cause yet, not even the NTSB. As many who have flown this type of aircraft have stated in this thread, they doubt the trim would be in the full aft position from the previous landing. Those that have flown this aircraft also point out that the aircraft has a history of trim indication and other problems, including runaways. If I were to "speculate", and that is all it is, had the trim been in the full aft position at take-off, the crash would have happened right over the runway, or at least on the airport property shortly after lift-off. The fact that the aircraft appeared to level off at roughly 200', suggests to me that that is where the problem first began, likely with the first input of trim after take-off as usually happens when the pilot can first feel the plane and fine tune the trim for the actual weight and balance of the aircraft. With that first input of trim if the contactor inside the switch stuck it would continue to run away. At that point where the aircraft was still close to normal trim and aerodynamic forces she was able to physically have enough strength to push the control column forward to level off and fight the runaway trim. But as the trim system continued to run aft it would have been impossible for most pilots, (men included), to fight the increasing aerodynamic forces. Hence the aircraft started a steep climb, and losing speed. With the loss of speed and the engines at high power, and the "Thrust line" being right of center on both these engines for a Navajo, (correct me if I am wrong for this AC), the lift for the wings would be shifted to the right of both engines. This would cause the barrel rolling to the left with the lowering speed. The trim is checked at least two or three times prior to take-off, and should have been looked at during the walk-around for this type and size of aircraft. I highly doubt she would have missed the trim 3 times, and from what I have heard about Natalie, she sounded like a professional pilot, not a "Hop in and let's go type". And with only 22 hours on this aircraft, and flying it single pilot, I'd bet she was checking things more than once. And from what I have seen flying with female pilots, they tend to be more cautious than many of us male pilots. Hopefully the NTSB will be able to find the cause for this accident, but for this size of aircraft and no FDR, (Flight Data Recorder), we may never know for sure what happened. Now for those and their speculations and comments about female pilots and the number of crashes here on KZfaq, think "algorithms", where KZfaq pushes certain videos and subjects to the top. I have no idea what the stats are, but I know some awesome female pilots. Heck, just look at the SouthWest 737 that had the engine blow up last year, with shrapnel from that engine piercing the cabin and also causing an explosive decompression. Two major startling unrelated failures at the same time. And it was an amazing female Captain that saved the day on that flight. Now I want to hear her story!

@@spencerrobinson5385 Thank you! That was a very interesting read. I pray that the truth is revealed.

@@Liars-Bane Me too. Natalie deserves to have her name cleared if this was a runaway trim, which I and many others here believe.

I flew the Navajo in the late 80s and my old Alaskan mentor "Cloud Dancer" taught me that along with a few other things to look for on the preflight that piper did not tell you about.

Happens when one is practicing engine outs. Full nose up trim gives you the optimal 65knot glide speed. Recovery is interesting at full throttle.

Agreed. She flew that model all over the content.

You had an ex dad? How’d that happen?

Same.

Agreed. To me, the position the trim was found in suggests a runaway because it wouldn't normally be that far nose up surely, even in landing config? I have a feeling a lot of the judgement, whether it's being done consciously or not, is because this pilot was female.

@@brandyballoon ...as well as young and inexperienced. I suspect she did use the checklist just as she was supposed to.

I'm betting on dodgy electricals or some other malfunction. They stopped making these 30 years ago, so this is a very old design and honestly, almost in the range of too old to fly/museum piece. (it looks like 1967? was the first year for these?). Very very old twins are something I'd not recommend to anyone seeing how often they seem to be appearing on this channel.

I don't see anyone throwing her under the bus. The trim was not set to full nose up when the takeoff started, so give over on the missed checklist stuff.

Agreed! I always touch and look.

It was NEVER said she was an "influencer".

I wonder how men young men with similar bios were in the news?

What the heck is a super chieftain

@@pauldoucette1432 Top of the line PA-31 Navajo, as I recall it was a longer version then the standard plane. That is what my friend called his, he owned a Piper aircraft franchise in the early '70s, and that is what he called it. Only got to fly in it once, and then it was sold soon afterwards to some corporation.

Attention to Detail was preached and crammed down our throats in Basic training AF 1993. Since, it has saved my ass in all facets of life over the years. Agree 100%

Speed.

Arms tired? Left hand alone not enough when right is fumbling with trim wheel? Or left slipped while right is fumbling with trim wheel? Yes, I know it has electric trim, but I might reach for the real thing in that situation if a problem with the electric is suspected, or actually occurred.

@@firstielasty1162 Handling a runaway trim wheel can be a huge problem. I have actually used my knee against the yoke while a found the circuit breaker.

​@@6milesupI've been known to pull the breaker pre takeoff. 🤔

If you look at all the posts here about trim, you will realize that you've made a very unwelcome reality based comment. Runaway trim does not cause barrel rolls.

Good comment. I wondered about CG and pitch authority with a light load. The Senecas behave similarly, although the Navajo is probably even worse.

Remember, when the Alaska plane lost its jackscrew it also rolled over and inverted. Quite possible something ran away, not just electrical but equally possible mechanical.

I've flown the Navajo a fair bit. The controls are not too heavy to manually operate.

Does that turtle have a turtle shell cannon on its turtle shell?!?!

@@jlo7770 indeed it does

I remember being checked out in a Musketeer. The CFI told me I had to roll in full up trim in the flare, or risk wheelbarrowing, because the stabilator had so little authority at landing speed. I really liked that plane, but was always uncomfortable landing it, and go-arounds were no fun at all.

They are nose heavy in the flare if you trimmed them a bit nose down at each addition of flap in the approach.

We don't know where the trim wheel was at start of takeoff roll. Were you watching the trim wheel? Can you state with certainty that there was no failure of AP or electrical short which cause the trim motor to activate?

@@chetmyers7041 Were you?..It seems like you know the answer but the OP is vilified because he doesn't either?