Objective Idealism and Presuppositionalist Apologetics

  Рет қаралды 1,311

Real Atheology

Real Atheology

3 ай бұрын

DESCRIPTION:
In this episode, Ben Watkins sits down to discuss the Van Tillian tradition of presuppositional apologetics often found online along with objective idealism- an epistemological view often associated with Post-Kantians like Hegel, Fichte, and Schelling. Two claims of Van Til are challenged using the resources of objective idealism:
Those two claims are (i) Christianity is a necessary condition to know anything at all and (ii) the Christian and the non-Christian have no neutral ground to resolve their disagreements.
In addition to challenging these claims by appeal to a form of objective idealism, Ben also gives a brief exposition of the argument from divine hiddenness. Contrary to Van Til and other presuppositional apologetics, it is not the case everyone believes God exists. In fact, there are some people who do not believe God exists, and this fact is evidence for atheism over theism.
TIME STAMPS:
00:24 Introduction
00:37 Presuppositional Apologetics
06:06 Objective Idealism Explained
07:32 Subjective Idealism Contrasted
09:09 The Autonomy of Reason Explained
17:11 The Argument from Divine Hiddenness
THE ARGUMENT FROM DIVINE HIDDENNESS (OUR PLAYLIST):
• Divine Hiddenness Seri...
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Пікірлер: 63
@vivahernando1
@vivahernando1 3 ай бұрын
As an atheist, I enjoy Pressupositional apologetics and reformed denominations. We can spot holes in each other's worldviews. I believe they are almost two sides of the same coin as a literal reading of the Bible can lead you to being an atheist or reformed.
@hudsontd7778
@hudsontd7778 3 ай бұрын
Objective Idealism Autonomy of Reason, sounds like Freewill view (the Ability to do Otherwise)
@dr.h8r
@dr.h8r 3 ай бұрын
I’ve never really understood the coherence of this issue. If reason constitutively depends on justification (internalist or externalist) then the question becomes “what justifies justification” which is as nonsensical as “what’s north of the North Pole”. The same issue arises when considering reason as a hinge, the question is trying to treat the concept as logically prior to itself which is incoherent. That’s construing reason conceptually, the other horn would be construed non-conceptually, such as a capacity. But asking what justifies a capacity is just a category error. Regarding autonomy: if reason was non-autonomous that would eliminate the normative force which constitutes the coherence of the concept, so reason is essentially autonomous & thus the objection is self-defeating. It’s also self-defeating internal to theism given its commitment to God himself being a self-existent autonomous reasoner, which is to say an agent who reasons independent of external constraint or conditions. And if they think God is logically prior to reason & grounds reason that implies God is logically prior to Himself, which is incoherent gibberish. The presup themselves would need to reason autonomously prior & with respect to interpreting scripture to determine this very issue, which is another way it’s self-defeating. So there’s a transcendental “defence” of the indispensability & autonomy of reason as well an offensive attack on the coherence of this stripe of theism/apologetic which is logically independent of a/theism & thus neutral.
@dustinellerbe4125
@dustinellerbe4125 3 ай бұрын
Very good presentation.
@shadowlink26
@shadowlink26 3 ай бұрын
Thank you!
@coreygossman6243
@coreygossman6243 3 ай бұрын
Autonomy of reason is an interesting idea, but presuppositionalist arguments would ask that you justify reason. Why would it be that the universe is rational? Couldnt reason itself be an illusion? What is the justification that reason actually applies to the real?
@babyfoot-
@babyfoot- 2 ай бұрын
Seems to me that the justification would be ex post facto - one learns that the use of valid reasoning is helpful in making predictive models of our experience, while violating reason produces unsuccessful models with poor correspondence. This creates a standard against which you can measure the validity of your reasoning. Not everyone is good at this.
@georgeslemaitre3696
@georgeslemaitre3696 Ай бұрын
Hi! I am wondering what are your opinions on what are the best versions of the problem of evil and suffering (logical and evidential) and the divine hiddenness argument. If there are any other arguments for atheism against theism that you think are potent and overlooked, I wouldn’t mind you mentioning them. I am an upcoming philosophy student and I am overall new to rigorous philosophy of religion. I would really love to come up to speed with the best philosophical atheist arguments. Thanks
@RealAtheology
@RealAtheology Ай бұрын
If you want to read Atheism at its best, here are some books you should consult (they will also give you the most powerful versions of some of the arguments you mention): The Miracle of Theism by J.L. Mackie Logic and Theism by J.H. Sobel On the Nature and Existence of God by Richard Gale William Rowe on the Philosophy of Religion edited by Nick Trakakis Arguing About Gods by Graham Oppy God, Suffering, and the Value of Free Will by Laura Ekstrom Hope that helps. You're always welcome to reach out to us by email for more detailed recommendations.
@landon5105
@landon5105 3 ай бұрын
Did you happen to read VanTil’s “Christianity and Idealism”? Couldn’t tell what work you quoted from in the video.
@shadowlink26
@shadowlink26 3 ай бұрын
I did not read that one. In fact, I was unaware Van Til had substantively engaged with idealism. Thanks for the reference, though!
@landon5105
@landon5105 3 ай бұрын
@@shadowlink26 his thought developed but responding to Bosanquet and other absolute idealists.
@landon5105
@landon5105 3 ай бұрын
veritasdomain.files.wordpress.com/2021/12/christianity-and-idealism-van-til.pdf
@landon5105
@landon5105 3 ай бұрын
A good resource is Bahnsen’s book on Van Til. “Cornelius Van Til: Readings and Analysis”
@classicalneoplatonictheist5766
@classicalneoplatonictheist5766 3 ай бұрын
What are your thoughts on Cutter’s and Crummet’s psychophysical harmony argument for theism? Do you have any arguments or counter-arguments against it (or is it too fresh)?
@RealAtheology
@RealAtheology 3 ай бұрын
Regarding the Psychophysical Harmony Argument, it is indeed an interesting argument, and we actually interviewed one of the co-authors, Dr. Dustin Crummett on it as part of an earlier episode. If you want to see a comprehensive and good response to the argument, see A Comprehensive Critique of the Argument from Psychophysical Harmony on the NaturalismNext blogspot site. Alternatively, Digital Gnosis has an episode on the argument as part of the bad apologetics series that may be worth checking out. Hope that helps!
@cypress_piper
@cypress_piper 3 ай бұрын
So, would the analytic idealism of Bernardo Kastrup fall into the objective or subjective idealism camp?
@kaile9968
@kaile9968 3 ай бұрын
hmm I hoped that you could have explained the ideas of objective idealism and Hegel's dialectic more simply. These terms are often loaded and have many different interpretations...If I'm not wrong, you are using the categorical imperative as an illustration of objective idealism?
@jordanh1635
@jordanh1635 3 ай бұрын
I think they might be using Rodl's interpretation of Hegel. You are right though, these are often difficult interpretive issues, and should of been better clarified.
@shadowlink26
@shadowlink26 3 ай бұрын
The aim was not to explain Hegel nor dialectic. That's simply too difficult a task to do justice in a 20min video. The aim was to outline the framework of objective idealism (only meant to associate this model with Hegel, Fichte, and Schelling) and how it might undermine claims made by presuppositional apologetics.
@shadowlink26
@shadowlink26 3 ай бұрын
I am not opposed to doing a video series on Hegel if there is an interest for it.
@kaile9968
@kaile9968 3 ай бұрын
@@shadowlink26 sure! 🙏
@kaile9968
@kaile9968 3 ай бұрын
@shadowlink26 I get that! However, when many loaded terms (without being explicited) are thrown out in a 20-minute video, it does undermine the clarity and thus cogency of the argument...Even though I'm quite familiar with these concepts, it was still rather hard to follow at certain parts
@Nexus-jg7ev
@Nexus-jg7ev 3 ай бұрын
I know that this jmis not relevant to the topic but I am in kind of a philosphicap crisis. I am starting to think that moral realism is false... It is something that I really wouldn't like to be true, but my confidence in its truth is just slipping away.
@kamilgregor
@kamilgregor 3 ай бұрын
Why do you want moral realism to be true? If I found out that it's objectively true that I should abuse my children, I wouldn't care. Like what, am I suddenly going to stop caring about my family just because there's some proposition floating somewhere in the Platonic realm?
@Nexus-jg7ev
@Nexus-jg7ev 3 ай бұрын
@@kamilgregor No, I wanted a certain kind of objectivism to be true. One that can allow me to argue that religions make false claims about moral facts like they make false claims about scientific facts. Nevertheless, subjectivism can still allow me to argue against religion. Religions present moral claims as if they are objective. But if no moral claims can be objective, then religions are false, aren't they?
@Nexus-jg7ev
@Nexus-jg7ev 3 ай бұрын
@kamilgregor I was not a Platonist but a moral naturalist and I thought that good is that which produces the most happiness for the greatest number. What I find really problematic about this view is that clearly two different people can find the same action to be either good or bad depending on who does it and who is on the receiving end. I thought that norm promotion could solve this, but acting in a way that promotes the norm that X is wrong is just acting as if X is wrong, which doesn't necessarily mean that X is really wrong. I am utterly confused, tbh. I am more of an agnostic about morality currently.
@shadowlink26
@shadowlink26 3 ай бұрын
There are important lessons to be learned in this part of your journey. Moral anti-realism might be true. You have to learn to live with the reality that some things you want to believe are true might be false. The balance between cautious optimism and wise skepticism is a delicate one. Learn to be comfortable with your worldview shifting.
@kamilgregor
@kamilgregor 3 ай бұрын
@@Nexus-jg7ev That's interesting. It's good to keep in mind that it's one thing to argue that there are some objective moral facts and another to figure out what these are. So even if one is successful in establishing moral realism, they'd still need some way to figure out what the objective moral facts are to argue that some religion is out of accord with them. From what I've seen, that's usually not very successful.
@christaylor6574
@christaylor6574 3 ай бұрын
Interesting. I've never really understood presuppositional apologetics. I don't see why God's existence is a necessary precondition for me to know 1+1=2. Also I don't think positing a being that possesses the very thing we're trying to account for (knowledge) explains why there is knowledge. One concern I have - is there a companions in guilt style argument being put forward? Atheism entails we can't know anything; not knowing anything is "bad"; so atheism is "bad". Be a Christian if you want to feel secure in knowing stuff! But how do they presuppose the Christian God without the Bible or Jesus's sacrifice on the cross? PS. It kind of looks as if you are a reading - which is fine, but in that case it might be visually easier if you put the text on screen as you read (like Majesty of Reason - Joe, does). I find being able to read what's on screen (personally) helps me internalise what you're saying - I can pause etc. Just feedback though.
@shadowlink26
@shadowlink26 3 ай бұрын
I very much appreciate the feedback. I'm trying to make each new video better than the last.
@wet-read
@wet-read 3 ай бұрын
The idea seems to be that there needs to be a designer of everything for intelligibility to be possible at all, and math makes a lot of stuff intelligible, or otherwise illuminates details of things. Same for other kinds of thinking/reasoning.
@christaylor6574
@christaylor6574 3 ай бұрын
@@wet-read *The idea seems to be that there needs to be a designer of everything for intelligibility to be possible at all, and math makes a lot of stuff intelligible, or otherwise illuminates details of things. Same for other kinds of thinking/reasoning."* Thank you, but I think that's just restating their claim. I guess what I'm confused about is the project itself. Like - there's this thing we want to explain eg: why is the world intelligible? The Christian presup answer seems to be: "let's presuppose there exists a divine entity (Triune) that *has this property of intelligibility (the thing we want to explain)." I mean - if all we need to do is presuppose something has this property of intelligibility then we may as well just presuppose that reality just is intelligible. God isn't actually providing any extra explanatory work. I don't know - I don't get the appeal of it lol
@coreygossman6243
@coreygossman6243 3 ай бұрын
Intelligibility is the ability to be understood by a mind. For the universe to be understood by a mind, it would have to have originated in a mind. Information which originates outside of a mind has a property of unintelligibility. The arrangment of objects on 40 meters of beach after a hurricane is not intelligible. But an arrangement of objects that spells a sentence is intelligible. Information which originates in a mind can be transferrred to another mind. This is intelligibility. The universe would have to originate in a mind to be intelligible.
@christaylor6574
@christaylor6574 3 ай бұрын
@@coreygossman6243 Yup - this is what I mean that it doesn't provide any extra explanatory work. All what is happening is that it's moving intelligibility from us to say there exists some *OTHER mind that has intelligibility. And intelligibility is still left unexplained.
@iwilldi
@iwilldi 3 ай бұрын
The independence of reason postulates that reasoning is not controlled by causality. I think this is an untenable position. Many philosophers say _should_ and yet postulate the opposite. So which _should_ survives is rather dependant on survival. And thus reasoning is not independant. Your final conclusion _which implies atheism_ is wrong because it presupposes a whole laundry list of attributes of the respective theism. How easily we become presuppositionalist in all our conversations.
@weirdwilliam8500
@weirdwilliam8500 3 ай бұрын
I love presuppositionalism. It makes Christianity look so, so weak.
@scottneusen9601
@scottneusen9601 3 ай бұрын
Not if you presuppose it looks strong
@TheMahayanist
@TheMahayanist 3 ай бұрын
Both conceptually confused garbled gibberish.
@shadowlink26
@shadowlink26 3 ай бұрын
Super helpful comment
@newglof9558
@newglof9558 3 ай бұрын
Just gobbledygook. One could say it's garbled Greek jargon. Jolly, I'll grant, but grossly grumbled. Rambling banter from an intellectual bantamweight, with random phantoms of ideology wailing with failure, planted in their menial mental faculties. And somehow, they're proud to shout it aloud. The fundies' intense nonsense has me incensed.
@TheinternetArchaeologist
@TheinternetArchaeologist 3 ай бұрын
Ironically gibberish comment gold star you sacrificed a coherent point for an alliteration
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