I haven't heard this in a little over 10 years. Winter festival 2011. It changed my life. I'm now married to the girl that was a senior that year and I was chaperoning. I was 22 at the time and she was 18. I'm now 32 and found myself referencing this book again today. The thing about hell being the absence of God rocked my soul. This whole speech reinforced my belief as a questioning college aged young adult. I love this so much. Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your experiences and the way you so eloquently debated this rather than arguing.
@davidkrempaszky23254 жыл бұрын
Another amazing clip, you had me in tears of joy, thank you for sharing God bless you and yours pastor Jeff
@oneandallchurch4 жыл бұрын
So glad you were touched by this David! We're so thankful you're apart of ONE&ALL!
@tonyenglish717610 жыл бұрын
I enjoyed this as much the second time as the first was in person at Winterfest in Gatlinburg about 6 years ago. Thanks Jeff!
@JTelli78610 жыл бұрын
I too was in Winterfest at Gatlinburg that year, but it took me until now to decide to look him up
@iDoit4LoLz3 жыл бұрын
I was there as well and his speech changed my life forever. I'm now 32 and have referenced this more than any other speech. I love how eloquently he explains things and debates without arguing.
@dylanmeier24735 жыл бұрын
God bless!
@b.bstube65885 жыл бұрын
This was fantastic. Some people really have struggled wrapping their heads around the concept of God existing. This world is a blink compared to eternity. No one in heaven feels pain. God knows the true heart of everyone. This world was given to Satan. Nothing in this world matters much. Build your treasures up in heaven. Keep at it. You are fantastic.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
33:00 Fallacious emotional arguments have always been a good way to manipulate the emotionally damaged. It doesn’t only happen in Christianity. You create a false dilemma, mix in some guilt, and then provide a magical solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
@kiwiavi12 жыл бұрын
So funny. I saw this topic on Shine and thought, 'You need to write a book about this". Looks like you had the same idea!!.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
Someone told me about your book, “Dinner with Skeptics”, and how it proved God’s existence. That prompted me to watch this video. I think it is in need of some constructive criticism.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
8:28 There is no innate and intrinsic ability to distinguish between evil and good. If that were the case then we would perfectly be able to distinguish between the two and never disagree. Instead, we tend to have an understanding of things which are beneficial to human well-being (morally good) and things which are detrimental to human well-being (morally bad). But that doesn’t prevent anyone from being in a state of moral error and being wrong about the facts pertaining to well-being.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
16:00 A “Philosophy Major” doesn’t necessarily have a good understanding of philosophy since they are still in the process of learning. Your definition of a philosopher is an after-the-fact belittlement of a person, violating what you said a minute earlier. I understand you didn’t say it to her face, but it really is a misrepresentation of what philosophy is. What I often see expressed about philosophy from the pulpit is a very narrow version of post-modernism which is mostly dead in philosophy.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
29:30 Let's evaluate some things which were regarded as sins to see the harm. Wearing material that was a mix of linen and wool, women cutting their hair, women speaking in church, eating shellfish. There are plenty more. You can say that those were only sins in another place or time, but then you might as well throw out the idea of absolute morals coming from God.
@killablooz5 жыл бұрын
You are kidding aren't you Fletch?? Do you understand anything about the purpose of the Old Testament law?
@nathanyoung34833 жыл бұрын
@@killablooz I'm curious. If you still check these, let's hear it.
@killablooz3 жыл бұрын
@@nathanyoung3483 Sure thing Nathan. The Old Testament Laws (all 613 of them) were specifically and solely for the Jewish people, through whom God was to bring the Messiah. They do not apply and were never intended to apply to other nations. They were not intended to continue for the Jews once Christ had come. It is the reason that Romans 10 states: "Christ is the end of the law to all who believe".
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
13:45 The fact that you have conversations with people who are not well versed in philosophy doesn’t mean that your arguments are valid. Even if there is no God there is no reason that we can’t recognize things which are detrimental to human well-being (ie: bad/evil things).
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
18:30 I suppose that everything we think and feel is then meaningless to God because he knows it all in advance since God is not bound by time. This creates a problem for freewill. God knows everything we will do in advance and we have no hope for changing our minds and doing differently. We all must be robots, without a genuine or authentic relationship with God, according to this Christian worldview.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
27:00 Your description of Hell seems to be ignoring quite a bit of what the Bible says about Hell, particularly in the New Testament.
@henryv42227 жыл бұрын
Fletch6 yes, Jeff does that. He Is using secular psychology on his audience. As if the God of the Universe needs help. You seem to have a lot of questions. The church does contain a plethora of dolts and hypocrites - all I want to know is, is the God of the Bible the Answer: I believe that He is, and my search has taken me far and wide. I know Yeshua - and it's a full on red pill, because He is not a religion - and He is the Only Way, truly I pray that you leave no stone unturned, until you find peace and joy unspeakable , and the Future and Hope that is only in Jesus.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
27:20 Again, you fail to make the distinction between a God-believer that rejects God and a non-God-believer who can’t reject a being that they don’t believe in.
@killablooz5 жыл бұрын
The distinction is very clear. All men are without an excuse. Romans 1 is crystal clear. Pretending that slime plus time produces Charlize Theron doesn't make a scrap of difference.
@nathanyoung34833 жыл бұрын
@@killablooz isn't it kind of strange to assume that people know God exists and just pretend not too? I find it hard to rationalize the idea that they know there's a God, and that they know that God is aware of their knowledge. Even knowing this, they still pretend otherwise. The problem is, they could just as easily assume that you are pretending to believe in God. How could you prove them wrong if they always say "you're pretending." It just doesn't change any minds and you won't have a useful discussion that way. It may only serve to shut people out.
@killablooz3 жыл бұрын
@@nathanyoung3483 Not at all. People are dishonest with themselves and know there is a conscious intelligence behind all life. I hear people admit that regularly when pressed. People who believe in God generally freely admit that God is the conscious intelligence behind all life. They allow commonsense to prevail. Life is highly complex and honest people admit that it is unlikely in the extreme to be the product of randomness.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
27:14 Why can there be "no good thing" if a god doesn’t exist? Let’s presume right now that no god exists. What exactly is it that prevents nothing good from existing by any other means?
@anandvarghese22374 жыл бұрын
because who says what is good? you? you're nothing more than a bag of chemicals that came about by natural processes without the existence of God? you're going to let a skin-wrapped packet of hormones define a powerful and deep a concept as good? no, you need something greater and outside the continuum itself to provide a definition that is fair and is not biased anyway
@nathanyoung34833 жыл бұрын
@@anandvarghese2237 all we have to do is define good. Once you do that, it's easy to tell if something was good or not. Example: I think human well being is good. That man helped a starving person and contributed to the well being of a human. He was also happy to help. What he did was good. Frankly it works both ways. If God says it's good, then it's good (because that's your definition of good). If it matches a human definition of good, then it's good. It doesn't really matter if morality is objective or not. A culture might agree that murder is good. Maybe they thought that God believed that or maybe they thought it was fun. I would strongly disagree with them and say it's bad. That's because my definition of good is different from theirs. I would hope to change their mind but at the end of the day a culture like that probably wouldn't survive.
@anandvarghese22373 жыл бұрын
@@nathanyoung3483 but what if I define good as having the $50 in your pocket, but you define good as everyone having what they earn and thereby define me taking that $50 from you as "not good"? the thing is, as unique individuals, we're going to have different approaches and perspectives on what we deem acceptable, as well as good, there's no denying that. Our culture, language, society, country, race, personality, our interests, all of these affect what we define as good. and therefore there is eventually going to be a circumstance where person A's definition of good goes against (be it a large or small degree) Person B's definition of good. for the most part, I agree, we can agree what good is, such as helping a starving person. but there will inevitably be some circumstance where we disagree. the only way to overcome the problem is to have a higher moral standard that is objective, not subjective.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
9:52 Morals are not based on how each of us feels. That would be moral relativism which basically negates the idea of morals. Morals are about relationships between moral agents (humans). If you remove the relationship between others then there is no need for morals. Consider if you were the only person on Earth. What need would there be for morals? There would be no other person to harm. Morals, by definition, are not about what an individual feels, but are about how actions affect others.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
12:00 The constant use of “absolute” in relationship to “right” and “wrong” is redundant. It seems to be an attempt to sway the listener as if there are categories of right and wrong where some right things are not right and some wrong things are not wrong. Acts are either right or wrong (depending on context). Period. Something which is right can’t be any more right than right, and something which is wrong can’t be anymore wrong than wrong.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
12:55 We try to discover moral facts as they relate to human well-being. This is a process that does not happen in a perfect environment and it is subject to error. And let's not forget, it can easily be shown that religions make moral errors too. It can also be shown that various supposed gods do many things which are detrimental to human well-being and, thus, can be categorized as being evil.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
10:45 (cont) It isn’t that an “absolute moral law” needs to exist, it is simply that there are moral facts pertaining to human well-being which were ignored. (and 12:26) An “absolute moral law giver” does not need to exist for these facts to exist or for us to discover them.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
18:55 You now violate the principle that you stated 30 seconds ago and say that God gives us freewill. Perhaps you can explain how that works in light of your earlier comment. Having the freedom to reject God means that at the moment he made creation he already knew whether or not we would reject him. In fact, if he didn’t want someone to reject him, he only needed to make that creation instead of this one.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
31:05 Yet some parents don’t love their children.
@b.bstube65885 жыл бұрын
So? MOST do? What is your point? God is still our father. The world still knows that fathers and mothers love is sacred. My mother was terribly abused by her father and still knew that fathers love was sacred. She just knew her father was a bad man.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
20:00 This creates a bit of a problem for heaven. Isn’t heaven a place where there is no evil? Does God take away your freedom and freewill in heaven so you can no longer choose to sin? According to your own words, that means there is no potential for love in heaven.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
23:25 Another strawman. No atheists actually blame God for anything. That would be illogical. But that doesn’t mean that for the sake of discussion that the concept of God can’t be discussed and criticized by an atheist. And there is still the issue that bad things happen, which are not caused by the actions of others, which God could prevent.
@killablooz5 жыл бұрын
Rubbish Fletch. I speak with atheists regularly and there is more often than not a seething anger against the (apparent) notional equivalent of the Tooth Fairy. Atheists are indeed illogical.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
13:15 Despite our being composed of chemicals, those chemicals come together in such a way so that we have the emergent property of moral concern. The fact is, we are still able to value things, have desires, worth and hope. Besides, you have only asserted that a God gives intrinsic value, you have yet to show how that happens or how value cannot otherwise exist.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
24:33 It is arrogant and disingenuous to assert that you know people believe one thing when they assert another. It is form of narcissism where religious people can’t separate their own beliefs from the beliefs of others. Not everyone believes (or is running from the supposed belief) that they will one day be judged by God. Some god-believers don’t believe in a god with a final judgment, and some people don’t believe in a god at all so they can’t logically believe that a god will judge them.
@killablooz5 жыл бұрын
But of course, if you listened, Jeff asked his audience to go 'back and forward' with him and the whole exchange was 6 hours long. Therefore it seems arrogant and disingenuous of you to insist that Jeff could not understand what his audience believed. The Bible is crystal clear that God is Judge and time after time explains the nature of a final judgment. Many people at the table didn't believe in God and Jeff showed them the logical errors of their reasoning - so much so, that one woman accepted the logic of his argument.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
9:00 There is no “moral law” which always directs us to the correct answer. If we are raised to have empathy and compassion, we will tend to relate to others and have concerns for their well-being. The “moral law” concept is easily shot down by looking at people who are not raised with a sense of empathy and have no problem doing immoral things. Your description of Hitler (10:00) invalidates the claim of an innate and intrinsic moral law inside of each person. Hitler certainly didn’t have that.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
10:45 The Nazis' error is that they are applying a principle to others but not themselves. The principle of “It is okay to kill innocent people if you think it benefits your own group” is self-defeating. If they actually accepted that principle as being valid then they would have to accept the allies attack on the Nazis as being valid. But they didn’t. This is why they were in a state of moral error.
@henryv42227 жыл бұрын
I am disappointed that Vision has this guy on the radio this year. He openly spiritualises prophets and even the words of Jesus Christ Himself. We don't need people who feel that the Scriptures need "help". The classical view of eschatology and the Truth that 2 Peter 3 tells us that in the last days men will deny the Truth about creation, and the return of Jesus, unfortunately extends to preachers like Vines. I would implore him to stop mocking those of us who take Jesus at His Word, and perhaps he can Google uniformitarianism and check out Daniel 9 while he's at it. His treatment of the Revelation of St John was disturbing at best.
@b.bstube65885 жыл бұрын
I disagree. I think he's fantastic. He has humility and is very compassionate. You can never please everyone.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
19:20 This is a strawman and a hasty generalization. First of all, many nonChristians are not only looking out for themselves and wreaking havoc on others. Second, many Christians tend to look out for themselves and wreck havoc on others (you are a pastor, I’m sure you have seen this many times).
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
23:50 Again, you are destroying the existence of freewill in heaven. For that matter, you are destroying the possibility of not having evil on earth. Isn’t that what God supposedly wanted? A perfect creation?
@killablooz5 жыл бұрын
No, free will clearly exists in Heaven. Satan exercised that free will and was cast out.
@Fletch612 жыл бұрын
9:42 There doesn’t have to be an absolute moral law which is unchanging. There are moral facts pertaining to human well-being, but there is nothing preventing them from changing over time. Such “laws” are relative to who we are as a species, and that is subject to change. In addition, there may be things which are beneficial to some people and detrimental to others.