Riding off the details basically means more work then painting them.

You guys are fast becoming one of my favourite channels for this kind of video. I definitely fall into the less is more camp. The versatility of GW kits now compared to 20 years ago is actually sad to look at

As for assembly being pain even before painting, I totally get what you mean - being more of scale modeller I have, alongside the pile of shame, a pile of disgust filled with kits that I could not finish or pissed me off enough to abandon, usually because they require to, for instance, sculpt entire wing from scratch, because original one is significantly off

As someone who used to work in toy prototyping but now makes minis, un-training myself on detail clutter is an ongoing process. I was in the biz when ZBrush came onto the scene, and suddenly everyone was tying to be the next McFarlane Toys.

I don't have many GW models, but I got some new hormagaunts, and they are a joy to build and paint. I like painting, not PAIN-ting.

I think a key problem GW is facing is designing at scale. They release tons of new minis, and designing an interesting character that tells a story is hard to do. Solution? Slap on lots of details and shove it out the door.

Your guys' cadence and enunciation of words makes your videos feel like a classroom educational video. It's good 👍

The Mk6 Tactical marines for 30k are quite a delight to assemble. Fairly easy to kitbash, simple and streamlined design all around with extra gubbins to doll them up. One of the better kits from GW, I think

I love your argumentative capacities and yours style of narrative

I prefer the older games workshop mini's because of a better detail/fun balance.

I do generally love all of the little details. I paint in a more grimdark style and love the esthetic of a grimdark messy future. I love kitbashing models and building complex models and adding little unique trinkets, iconography, and ornaments. I feel that they need to get better at making things more optional. Especially for gamers who do not have time to paint all of those pointless bits. I love too much detail, but I do not feel that it has to be forced.

Hi thanks for the video. I'm considering myself a beginner in Warhammer, and the Hobby, I started early 2023. I do agree about overdetail in GW product, as an exemple they recently removed the Bonesplitterz Orruk army from AOS, and I buy enough of them to have enough to play different list composition; so kinda angry then they removed them, reffering to your point about long term follow of the models. But not only that, those kits was kinda old in the grand scheme of GW production, but they where very easy to assemble compared to actual models, and the amount of detail was a good amount for me as a beginner, yes you have to assemble a lot of them but it is that it is. Another point about those kit a do agree with you was not only about simplicity of assembly but the way they are monted on the sprue, on that point it was kind of a hell with cutting point where disposed in a way that need a lot of pre work before assemble to remove the cutting nubs, mold lines etc etc. As an exemple, beside being a GW client for warhammer, i'm also a client of Namco bandai and Gunpla. And I have to say, if you get a chance yourself to try a gundam assembly experience, you will realise of much GW have to learn about instruction, sprue disposal, cutting point etc. In a Gundam Kit there is multiple sprue named A ,B, C etc.... and parts on those sprue are arranged in number order so you have the number 1 next to number 2 etc etc you get the idea. GW sprue are a nightmare to find parts number, they just make no sense. And on Gundam you can actually feel the effort put for the custumer to put cutting point not only in an accessible way but also where it will barely be visible once the kit is assemble if you just cut the part flush and do a minimal sanding job (btw sanding is easy on gunpla because of the previous point, cutting marks are accessible). Bonus point Gundam are not overpriced for the amount of plastic, or detail. It was trully painfull for me after my first gundam to return to GW sprue and assemble a model. Anyway even if i consider the beauty of GW models (because they are), I wish they do kits better in struction, sprue disposal and kit assembly in general, and down the de amount of detailed on them to make painting easier but still getting visually stunning models. (Not fluent in English so sorry for mistakes)

Best illustration of the current level of hostile design is the simple fact that guys like me with 20 plus years in this hobby HAVE to read the instructions to assemble basic infantry, I'd expect it for vehicles and larger models, but not have a basic trooper in 15 parts. hell, the necron warrior head fronts dont fit to every head back!

Blood Bowl is a good example of GW over-designing models. The 2016 set had Orcs & Humans that were 2-4 pieces each, and they looked pretty darn good when you put them together. Then the first couple of teams, Dwarfs & Skaven had mostly 2-4 piece models, easy to build, looks good. Then they got to the Elves and OMGWTFBBQJUSTHAPPENEDHERE? Models that have 10-15, 17, 18 pieces. Little tiny shoulder guards the size of a fingernail clipping that have different left & right shapes. It's just insane. The Elven Union, Dark Elves and Wood Elves are all nightmares to build.

Been loving your shorts, I think this is the first full video I've watched. Your scripting and energy is on point. Thanks for the inspiration and content.

Great video and a nice summary of why I don't paint warhammer and started sculpting my own figures.

I enjoy the detailed minis, but I understand where people come from who do not. If only it was an option to add bits or not and it would not detract from the mini if you did either.

I really Love the music drop at the end of every Video

I built an intercession kill team and left off a ton of extra grenades and reliquaries. To be honest it wasn’t my intent, i didn’t realize I forgot about the bits until after I finished. But I’m really glad because there’s no way I’m going back lol😂

Hey guys!! I just wanted to say that the passion in this video seems to be far greater than with a lot of other content you have made, and it makes a massive difference. Having the two of you agree without entirely agreeing on everything is a very thought-provoking way of handling the ideas and sides of a debate, and I am just writing to say that I am here for it. I personally am more on the side of "The way things are now seems fine enough?" But I paint Tyranids, and their details are either fun for me or look fine being literally glazed over, so I feel like I don't really have a podium to stand at here. ^^; It was nice to hear both sides presented without screeching involved. Excellent work!! ^^-b

Ironically that combi weapon lieutenant was the reason i made the hop into this hobby. It told me enough abojt the character to make me interested

Wow. I actually got a notification for this. And able to watch right away. As for the issue itself I'm torn. I like detail - if it's interesting and doesn't make painting a chore (like hard to reach areas) - but detail for detail's sake is meaningless. Also my eyes aren't that great and I frequently miss small details that I end up having to figure out how they fit in the overall painting plan. "almost done Wait what's that? CURSES"

This is one of the reasons I am playing old world.

Yea. Yours and trovarians vids, as well as painting some non gw minis today have made me realize that why I, as a relatively new painter, am having a hard time enjoying mini painting. Being new to it and getting into it through 40k, I've had a ton of trouble with gw models because of the amount of detail and how it's placed. I have a hard time deciding which parts to paint first, which color to basecoat most of my model with, all of the beginner methods that tutorials often show end up getting confusing due to how these models are designed. Yeah the loads of detail can look impressive, but it's hard for someone like me to get excited about painting my first army when I'm spending more time figuring out how to paint each model than actually painting the things. Also i absolutely agree on the primaris intercessor being the perfect amount of detail. They look great and can look great with incredibly simple paintjobs, but are able to be elevated even higher by adding detail yourself through painting. Its really strange that GW wants to keep pushing the detail on warhammer models, making them harder to assemble and overall being less consumer friendly, while at the same time trying to make warhammer more mainstream and frame it as an accessible hobby.

Personally I love detail for big characters, commanders / warlords, elite units and centerpiece models. What I really resent is over detailed models for my rank and file troops. I think what people tend to confuse detail with better resolution / style models. Personally I believe less is more for a lot of my troops since having to paint over 20 to 50 models is not fun versus painting the command character. The people who always demand new models especially in games like the old world are the type of people who are graphics snobs in video games.

I agree a lot of the trouble today is the slicing. I won't say it's bad because the metric they are probably measured against is efficient sprue usage to save on materials and I'm certain they are succeeding in that regard. But you're right they aren't thinking about the customers building experience anymore. Building and painting subassemblies should be possible if not considered the standard. I don't want bolter colors on my chest eagles and I don't want to go back and forth 20 times correcting mistakes. But the space marine is the perfect example. There's no reason the army shouldn't be sliced with the shoulder pad cleanly on the arm. In many of the monopose kits the shoulder pad is half on the arm and half on the chest. I can't paint in sub assemblies without having to repaint the shoulder pad once it's together. I understand the monopose box set guys are simpler with less options. But they shouldn't be unnecessarily harder to paint well. It's just less fun. I also think you should divide the too much detail a bit further. I'm all for more detail but it needs to be repeatable. Or removable. For instance before if we had a marine with a drawn pistol a better modeler could glue a pistol in a holster to their hip and just cut off the pistol grip to show the pistol was no longer in the holster. Now the leviathan kit guy actually has no pistol in the holster and the holster flap actually goes over an empty cavity. More work for me but that's really cool. What I don't like is multiple lieutenants with the exact same tyranid trophy arm armor. Some extra detail can be removed like the blood dripping from a knife. It's cool. But five guys with the same blood drip looks silly. But the blood drip is easily removed to add variation across an army. But this problem isn't new. As a steel legion collector every other squad leader was carrying the same work head. The issue is just much worse now. But your space hulk terrain example is perfect. Having the same skull or fallen detail 50 times is not better than having the details separate for the modeler to add or scatter around more randomly.

I like the details. It makes it easier to dry brush and then add washes. Those wall sections you show look awesome if you just prime black, dry brush with leadbelcher, and just add an agrax wash. You can pick out a couple details with different but since it is terrain you honestly don't want it to pop too much.

Currently building old-school Ork Boyz coming from a unit of Beast Snagger Boyz. The mold-lines are night and day, as is the gap filling. Had a much better time with the old boyz to be honest. The new sculpts are way better if course, but being a non-god-level painter, that's not usually a plus actually...

I started putting Boarding Actions terrain together last night. I'm rather dreading painting it now.

I feel like GW actually does a very good job making detailed mini’s that are still easy to paint. They strike a very good balance between detail and paint ability. In the board game space (and probably 3D printing space) there are lots of detailed mini’s where it is a huge pain to paint everything because the details melt together. That’s what you don’t see when you just see the 3D renders but actually get your hands on the model it becomes a huge challenge.

Interesting comments. for those of us that dont want to pay a (small) fortune for overdetailed GW items, 3D printing is definitely the way to go. For things like Old world and AoS one of my personal favorites is Highland Miniatures. Just the right amount of detail and variation and affordable. There are too many grimdark proxies to mention in any detail, but DakkaDakka and Eightlegsminiatures are a good place to start there. Keep up the good work guys!

Basic infantry used come in 8 pieces and it was no problem. Plastic OG Space Marines: 1x legs 2x torso halves 2x arms 1x head 1x bolter 1x backpack 8 pieces.

Funnily I had the same thought about the models becoming not user friendly was when the 'new' Khemri models were released ages ago. The Nekropolis Knights, Warsphinx and Tomb Guards. Especially the first two had so many frickle and vulnerable parts, like the crew's spears or the weird hooks the riders hold onto their snakes. The bones became so thin. I lost count of how many times the snake riders lost their arm. By now I replaced them with 3D printed models with less clutter and a clearer model. The sphinx's crew was taken away after the first few broken spears. I fully agree with the video and I really enjoy models that have optional detail. Details that I could paint well but don't have to because the model has enough texture and areas to still look good and complete even if I skip a few details or just paint over them quickly.

As a detail guy, I think you guys hit a ton of good points. Absolutely, we should not defend the prices. They are clearly too high and unjustified. Especially with the latest shift in the combat patrols, they are charging more for less and thats just greedy, plain and simple. That said, I think the other problems you talked about, could easily be fixed with better slicing. If they just sliced the model with user experience in mind, and intoduced better registration marks and pegs, I think that would remedy most of the issues. (Especially with two handed weapons, my goodness. I actually find kit assembly relaxing and fun, but lineing up two handed GW parts without good registration marks has been stress inducing.) The only other design flaw with the kits is the numbering. Holy crap its infuriating, I'm trying to put toy kits together, i should not have to do an advent calender style search for each part! 🙃

I used to paint in subassemblies a lot too because of the "large gun" blocking my Space Marine chest details, so I fixed it by making most of my marines use the two open arms so the chest is no longer covered. much easier to paint and less subassembling.

GW has had this issue for YEARS, I mean DECADES. The joke in the olden times was "Does it have enough skulls on it??".

Good video. I would like to add a couple of points. First the use of sprue layout to run mold lines on natural seams of the model varies quite a bit among kits. This is much more user friendly that having to remove detail along with the mold line. Second some kits are a literal pain to assemble because of the mini design. The pointy parts can be very distracting when trying to hold parts together for gluing. I have actually drawn blood from my finger while assembling an Ork Trukk. These points definitely fall into your discussion of humane v hostile design.

11:15 honestly, my guys have been fighting in vaguely imperial gothic ruins for several years, and I’d really like to fight in the wooded hills or mountains. Of course I’d also like a GWOT (global war on terror) themed modern combat version of bolt action and fight in space Afghanistan.

Being new to the hobby it's hard to say which camp I fall into yet, but big open spaces on a mini also seem to provide a lot of opportunity for developing volumetric highlights and texture. It goes back to that lack of consideration for the painter.

I really love this, very well thought out and explained. I truly believe that detail creep is used to justify high prices for GW. One thing I learned in web design is that less is more and cleaner looks come across better. I believe this works for miniatures as well. At any rate, GW pretty much has a monopoly in the tabletop space which is no good for consumers.

I'm pro good detail camp. I like a model with nice details and variety bits that make it more visually interesting, help things stand out, contrast, etc... However there is also just pointless or excessive details yes, where it doesn't help the overall composition, doesn't make it easier to paint a good looking mini, and just makes it harder to make things all look like a cohesize hole, and adds extra time to painting when a simpler version of that part of the mini might have worked just as well. Take ork vehicles for example, a large metal plate, dented, binged, with big old bolts/rivets/etc... poking out can be painted in one color, with a bit of edge where, drybrushing or fine highlighting on it and the bolts/raised bits works well. Now imagine you have like four smaller panels, semi overlapping, with cables poking out between them... You'll feel like you might need more colors to seperate those panels as different pieces, orks are a bit slapdash in sourcing their parts afterall, and that extra depth and cable takes careful custom time. Now, on a fighters wing doing this on one part you want to help draw focus too, or that otherwise was too flat looking is alright, but doing it across the entire wing, or hull of a vehicle... that just gets tiring more than it needs to be. Giving a character an optics unit on his eyes, and a simple necklace with a single with one big symbol/aquilla/witcher icon whatever is good for adding some character and points of contrast. Having a model with like four different lensed optics on each eye... and a necklace that's got like ten little daggers hanging off it... that's got a similar effect but would take like 5 times as long to paint right. Now I won't say this is bad if it matches a character, especially on character models... but most regular minis don't need that level of individual character building detail. So I love me the detail in general, as a painter focused person, but I also dislike it on some, like especially some older ork deffkoptas or such where it's a bit much and hard to figure out what needs to be its own color/material, without ruining my overal color composition.

I agree that it is harder to paint and assemble the more detailed Minis but a lot of them look so awesome 😃 My solution for this is to pay a pro painter to do the over detailed minis for me. So far I really like the results

HE used to do what your suggesting with having additional details on a separate sprue. The old Dark Angls company veterans/Fallenw kit, and the Old Ravenwimg command squad lots are good examples of this. The offered multiple options for heads/helmets, shoulder pass and even chapter icons. The Dark Angels veterans kit came with Multiple back pack pption, some plain some with Dark Angels specified icons. A separate story that allows you to convert one of the bodies into a apothecary or sergeant with multiple arm options. Hooded heads, regular helmets and helmets with hoods over them. Multiple incense censors and chapter icons on courses that can be attacked to the body of the model or the weapons . Multiple weapon load out options , you could equip th e squad with as a force of just filters or you could equip them essentially like the later introduced assault interceptors or heresy despoilers, with bolt pistols and chainswords. It came with three back banners, one that was blank and two with the dark angels winged sword giving you options for the veteran sergeant. All of these where clearly delineated in the sprue. The bodies where two piece because the legs where covered by robes making them really easy to build . The evening command squad came with even more options for heads and helmets plus chapter icons for other space marine vehicles. It had stuff to put chapter icons on Rhinos, land raiders, land speeder 3rd .All of that in a lot that was officially for three marines on bikes.

I got into building Gunpla first so when I started building my first 40k army of Tau and some practice Marines. It blows my mind how much they sell the minis for. A Master Grade, Perfect Grade even some Real Grade Gundams have way more detail, more plastic and costs less than some of these GW kits. When I saw a single mini for $35 I was like whoa there are some HG(High Grade) and RGs that cost that much and are a bigger more detailed kits.

I usually end up shaving off unwanted detail off (nu-GW loves it's unwanted detail, what a way to stifle creativity!), especially on marines... Guilliman though, is a special case, I would cover that model in tons of masking tape, then go to town, then finally tidy up where you need to. But I like the old Gal Vor Bak, they have just the right amount of detail for me, just gorgeous. But that's old Forge World, the Skunks works of old GW.

Well to me personally, lots of detail is actually quite fun. It lifens up a model, when you have different various textures to work with and I'm no great painter, but it always makes a project interesting and fun, although not gonna lie, I feel overwhelmed at the start where I just don't know where to begin with it

9:00 I don't care what anyone says, the bit never gets old "muh lady games workshop" sent me

Great Video as always 👍🏼

Subassembly part is sooo relatable and painful, especially since they like to make monopose character models so much. And it wasn't always the case - even 6th edition space marines character models worked perfectly fine with subassembly technique. To me - intercessors are actually extremely humanely designed minis, can agree with you. They have more elevated plates than small recesses, which are much easier to paint, helmet design is fairly streamlined. But the downside is that they are painfully boring to paint after you have, like, a 30 of them. I would argue that Phobos dudes are a solution to this boredom problem though. They are more challenging to paint, that's true, but you probably don't need as many of them as regular MkX dudes in your army (15 tops), and they are not that bad if you paint their knifes, holsters and and pouches sub-assembled. Personally they felt like even more streamlined intercessors but with leather fetish lol. Same with veterans. Bladeguard and stern guard are fairly fun to paint - I really believe that they are pretty well-balanced in that regard. Also, it's pretty funny, but Outriders bikes are EXTREMELY fun and comfortable to paint, but only if you separate legs with exhaust pipes from the bike armor details, and than glue those armor details to the rest of the bike from the start, and add painted space marine rider on the end. But if you don't do all that - they are extremely PAINFUL to paint, God save your soul if you glued the whole dude with his bike before painting. But Gravis pattern units, to me, are downright hostile design. Just look at aggressors ammo belts and imagine the pain of painting it assembled, sub-assembled and (the worst option so far) magnetized. Not to mention that they double down on elevated plates - one leg of a Gravis dude to me genuinely feels like a 2/3rds of a whole intercessor when it comes to extreme highlights. And last but certainly not least - space marine primaris vehicles. They are larger and have more flat plates that are almost impossible to paint with brush, so good luck if your midtone isn't a base color, also have fun with that if you don't have an airbrush. Rhino-based tanks were much more approachable. I spent a freaking month painting the redemptor dreadnought alone, and another month painting the impulsor and so one - the whole ordeal made me lean more into infantry units. And I am simply terrified of the idea of painting something like a Repulsor Executioners. The number of its guns alone gives me anxiety.

GW used to do "extra details" sprue, said at 9.08 as I started typing this!

If I'm paying twice as much I should get twice as many options.. printing or buying second hand is essential.

I love the video as always. I and I agree. More options instead of more details!!! Assembling models is quickly becoming the biggest reason I go with 3d printed models. Usually, I love the underworld's models though. Detailed and dynamic, but not too much so in my opinion. Plus, they are actually pretty fairly priced compared to character models. Thank you!

There is a middle ground. To all of this. Long story short: Simpler design with more greebles in the box would be their best solution to appease the less invested in the painting side, but still entice those who want more. But this wouldn't help with things like trim on chaos marines, or anything in the Nurgle line. I think having base models with straps, and belts sculpted on would allow those who want less detail to have decent diversity in their models, but allow for additions like grenades, pouches, side arms, and knives for those of us who like more detail. Rest of the long story below: The slicing is done to fit more pieces in a sprue while preventing blocks or bubbles when filling in the mold. So we are getting more usable plastic with fewer flaws in every box than ever before. HOWEVER, the price we pay is not worth the plastic we get. The slicing isn't something that bothers me, but I think the ball jointed hips would go a long way to allow more diversity among models. But I'd rather the slicing and more models than fewer parts and fewer models. Perhaps expanding the box dementions would allow for less slicing and still keep the same amount of models in the box. When it comes to terrain I think GW had done a great job with the Necromunda terrain. The columns, walls, stairs, and walkways of the underhive have juat enough detail to keep interest, but not enough require focus to paint. The Ash Waste terrain is very similar. The elevated platforms and walkways have enough detail as a base to be interesting, but enough open spaces that allow for added detail. GW has some amazing quality in their models. But they are developed and produced in a more expensive economy where they need to pay their workers more. So I understand why we don't get cheaper models like we can from 3D printing producers. They don't have them produced in a cheaper environment because of fear of their IP being out there. And I get that. But they will either need to produce elsewhere so prices can stay affordable, or only produce larger models like vehicles, big name characters, and centerpiece models like the Primachs, or ork Warbosses.

I'm very new to the constructing and painting sprue miniatures and a lot of what you mention here are the reasons I stayed away for so long. A lot of the time the details overwhelm those new to the hobby. We lack the skills needed to make the miniatures shine and are sometimes are left feeling defeated. When you are brand new picking up a brush for the first time can be daunting because of all the details. So far I am staying away from GW kits because of the price and (from what I've heard from other) the difficulty in constructions (depending on the mini design). Archon Studios though have done a pretty good job and things seem to fit pretty well from my (limited) experience. I've also really enjoyed painting them :). Yes it's great to challenge yourself to help improve and grow as a painter but the struggle is real. Remember to focus on yourself, that you are "just starting and will improve with time", concentrate on "I can only do my best and that's what counts".

Thank you, give me ptsd on painting my space marine model..

Keep fighting the good fight!

Great video

I love the older monopose models, but the latest seraphon models look SICK. I buy second hand/ebay so none of that money goes to GW

7:55 I’m sort of a disciple of the Way of Mr. Peach, “I can’t be fucked to paint all this gribbly shit” which is not how he would put it, but it is how I’d put it. My tau are purple because they’re the Covenant analogue and tau blood should be purplish (so my take on Farsight Enclave/I wanted a purple army) my World Eaters are red, my Grey Knights are silver with space wolves grey contrast paint over it to make them that blue silver. My Primaris army is my Spartans and are heavily based off the Silver Templars, But Flat Gray and mid tone green instead of yellow, with the command color being an orange-red. I specifically collect the 8th company (my chapter has all companies formed into battle companies) so they got that black-grey trim.

I just like to paint up to my current standards I don’t obsess this much on my skills aspect cause I can always repaint it if it really offends me as I get better

I think people are so used to the abuse and are trapped in the loyalty bubble due to great memories with all the minis they have and whatnot that they feel the need to protect that therefore the company but I agree this is our hobby and should have standards that we should expect also since with all the price hike they do the minis should be perfect. I also agree that in this issue the complicated parts or accessories should be in another sprue so that we have the choice on how detailed the mini could be and in the future have the option to add accessories.

I think the issue ironically comes from the 3D Graphics industry. The 3D Games/Graphics Industry improved their tools so much that you can put out extreme fidelity. Models and effects etc. And it let to games that lack contrast. Like looking into a box of legos it's hard to discern one piece from another. And this ironically swept over to the mini market, because they use the similar tools for the Gaming/3D Graphics Industry.

It is some kind of paradox. GW's minies are so overdetailed, but the same time their models had lost some individuality back the old models

The only reason why I would even buy GW models is because they are plastic and I'm more comfortable with painting that (I drop my things a lot xux), but yeah it is so hard for me to even figure out how to paint a space marine in a way that I can feel happy with. Also I do agree with the colored plastic

I really like the amount of detail GW puts into their miniatuers and I honestly wouldn't call majority of them overdesigned at all, i would even call most miniatures quite simple and underdetailed. Aside from brand and uniform design and style, details *ARE* what people are paying for. If there were cheaper miniature ranges with similar style and detail level, people would buy them instead, but aside from GW, pretty much no company makes such miniatures. Only individual 3d sculptors care to make GW level minis, but they don't have entire ranges wich could replace GW ones. *Detail is the only thing GW has, wich other producers have not*. In case of terrain, the GW one you showed wasn't really that overdetailed. There were some smaller elements to paint, but most of the detail done there is your chosen paintjob, it could be completely fine to paint it all rust, or with fewer colors. I would say this lacks simpler walls - but only because everything looks prety much identical. And in case of the other terrain you showed - ithat's honestly the type of terrain I would buy to play room-based games such as Killteam, Mordheim or alike. I like how it looks, but aside from varied floor tiles it's just bare bones terrain with no details I would love to see on it. (also, the dress up/elevate in your castle is not dressed up/elevated at all - it's jsut painted. Diamond floor is just another style of floor, while plastered walls is just different style of walls. Nothing has been added, you just changed tiles) I also wanted to add that for a video about overdesigning and detail creep, you put far to much emphasin on corridor terrain, while showing pretty much no other terrain or miniatures. I mean, that's GeneStealers or Chaos Marine video !

I saw a witch elf online that I really liked so I went and I ordered it from my LGS that sells Warhammer and GW stuff. I had it up until this point only 3-D printed or purchased solid models such as reaper. This one 30 mm witch was almost 25 pieces. Her hair alone was four pieces. This is the most absurd shit I've ever seen and quite frankly it didn't make me want to get more GW kits....

You could also have given credit to the old gw for improving the joints of the even older gw. Do you remember those old metal models with 3mm gaps within pieces? I learned about green stuff by mounting a stegadon.

Okey . Lets say you want to start a HH army and have some varity in the builds. So you get 60 tacticals, 15-30 assault marines, 30 support tactical guys and between 15 to 30 terminators. Those will need apothecaries, you need officers (probably one of each type) . You are looking at 130-150 marines , and then there is legion specific units, vehicles , dreadnoughts etc How much detail do you want on your rank and file dude? 9-12 studs per leg/shoulder/etc , multi layer multi substance trims , multiple bags, pouches, ammo belts etc?

Ive bougt some lord of the ring GW back in the day. It was mostly monopose and quite a bit of issues in fiting. Finecast was so easy to brrak it was shit. Now i just have 3d printed model, from stationforge, pipermakes and alike. Quality and model complexity is on point. There is plenty of customisation possible, a huge catalogue of stuff to suit exactly what you want... and in the end its muuuuuch cheaper. And less work! 3d printing is press and play nowaday I dont see GW winning this war long term tbh

I think you guys should contact The Outer Circle, Macca and Cat have similar opinions to you

I don’t play the game, I just paint. I usually don’t mind the extra details because I’m doing one piece, not a whole army.

I get where you're coming from and they're points well made... but they just don't really land for me. Generally speaking, I tend to enjoy new GW releases more as time goes on. I like the direction that they're going in terms of detail and I enjoy painting their models. The examples given for models with too much detail are ones that I enjoy personally. And living in the UK I'm more fortunate when it comes to price compared to people buying in the USA, Australia, and the like. I feel as though my pounds get me an appropriate amount of hobby enjoyment, because on average it's around £35 for a month or more of painting and assembling models. But the one point I think I have to agree on is assembly. Many new releases are way less pose-able and you get fewer ways of actually differentiating models in a kit. There are exceptions, though. The new plastic cerastus knights put questoris knights to shame with how you can pose the kits.

I think my issue with detail creep isn't really that it exists, it's where it exists. I don't mind painting overly detailed miniatures. What I don't want to do is have to paint an entire army of them. That's where I think GW is going wrong, every miniature is now an overly detailed, individualistic model rather than a faceless goon in a squad of 10. That just makes some armies an absolute chore to paint. It's fine for Kill Team squads or Necromunda gangs. It's great for boxed games like Blackstone fortress. It's not OK for 40k or AoS.

This is also directed at ease of bits modeler. Even attaching different weapons is challenging

I like over design models. Lemme pose them how I want them to be. Monopose is lame. Change my mind.

I think one of the better choices GW has done with their slices is making the rifle arms experience better. Trying to make sure rifle arms lined up properly while making sure they fit on the torso without massive gaps on the old models was an absolute NIGHTMARE for me. If they stopped slicing up the legs and torsos and including pauldrons on sculpted onto the arms I think there would be a better experience all together, but I will never be happy going back to arms I need to do vector calculus for just to glue them on. It's an issue I have with every game that does that. It artificially extends build times and can ruin a paint job if built and painted in sub-assemblies. As for terrain, I definitely agree on some of it, the Dungeons and Lasers terrain looks more fun to paint. I know GW is expecting you to buy Lead Belcher spray cans for $32 USD a can (PLEASE COLOR FORGE, COME TO THE US), and is expecting you to paint the small details by hand, like the wires and skulls and screens. As someone who makes terrain by hand, or massively alters terrain I buy (never from GW), I look forward to the project and spending time on it. For me time and detail aren't the problem when it comes to terrain, that's the fun of it. It feels good to be able to lay it all out and see what you have planned, built, and created. I really think GW's major issue is greed. They're doing EVERYTHING in their power to justify price hikes for models that cost them $00.20 USD to make, utilizing FOMO, and tying what should be single models to massive boxes. For instance, why did they pull the Cultist Firebrand out of the kit it was already included in, just to sell it only online and for $20 USD alone? That's just greedy as hell. There's no reason for it other than greed. Why are they putting all of their new characters in $230+ USD boxes while making like a grand total of 5 of them for pre-orders for around the world? It's just FOMO and greed. I already have like 7000pts of CMS models purchased over the last 15 years. If I want that new Chaos Lord model I shouldn't have to spend $230 USD to assemble one model and pad my already overflowing bits box with even more stuff. Admittedly, the box is good value, as paying individually for 4 of the 6 kits included already is more expensive than the box. Also, how can they justify their codicies going up in price when they barely even included lore in them anymore? Hardcover doesn't mean a $15 codex should be priced at $60.

honestly I dislike the amount of detail creep that is going on esp if it is on parts that you wont see, why do I need an emblem on the part of a gun that will be blocked by the rest of the model? why do I need a hyperdetailed cockpit roof despite the angle of the assembled model leading to me being unable to see the parts I painted? and I'm kinda getting tired of getting so few options with the models you get compared to the price, none of my anvil industries models have unneeded amounts of detail, and for some models it gets difficult to add your own spin on things if the model is so strictly designed to be a specific character

“Gamesworkshop are the Supreme of models” that’s a good line fellas.

I've heard that the GW sprues are designed in the annoying manner they are to prevent counterfeiting. Which just annoys the customer.

I don't even paint most of the details, you'll never get close enough to see all that stuff outside of a youtube video. The cluttered design is also just part of GW's design aesthetic, it literally wouldn't be GW if everything wasn’t plastered in skulls and gothic arches.

I think i counted 15 parts to build a basic sororitas. A real pain to build and even more to convert. But that was long ago so i might be wrong. Still, they are the (catholic) eclesiarchy and all those problems kind of fit with the spirit of the model. Over detailed? Absolutely, just as you would expect. Over priced? Absolutely, just a you would expect. A martyrdom to mount? Absolutely, just a you would expect. You learn to love and hate the models? Absolutely, just as you would expect.

northstar military miniatures win in every category!

Since GW has become publicly traded, they have to grow year after year. Either price hikes, detail creep, scale creep, or lowering unit point costs so elite armies are now hoard armies etc etc.

Normally I really like your videos which is why I'm writing this; I think you've dropped the ball with this one. You've made a strawman of the people that like detail on the model and you've done a really biased job of exploring their side. Firstly you equate a detailed model to badly designed model, but the model that you sub assembled would have been ruined regardless of how much detail is on each surface of the model. You also talk about how contrast paint ends up pooling in the recesses of a model that has lots of detail on, but again that would only happen if the model is badly designed and not if the the model has detail. This part also ignores that you don't have to use contrast paint and not using contrast paint removes that issue completely. Then you pose the question "why do highly detailed plastic models cost so much, when you can get STL's for cheap" and you imply that this proves your point about model design quality, but you're ignoring that when you're buying an STL you're only paying a designer, but when you buy plastic model, you're paying for the plastic itself and the rather expensive manufactoring costs to create highly detailed plastic sculpts (plastic is important in the discussion as while resin printing is cheap to get sharp results, plastic modeling is very expensive when creating highly detailed and sharp miniatures). Either way it's unfair to compare 3d printing to creating plastic sprues. Then you mention that one solution is to for a model company to solve the "I don't want to paint the recesses" problem they could sell those kits with the recesses pre painted, and then say that the detail lovers discarded that idea because it would raise prices. You try to show this arguement as wrong by saying that GW allready sell painted plastic miniatures, but those are not the same things. You're not taking about wanting the recesses to be pre painted bright blue, you wanted them actually painted, this is currently possible, but the cost of printing the models with actually painted recesses would 100% require a price rise from any model company. Then you go on to say that people don't need to justify a company's bad practice by saying "just shave the detail off", I agree with you "just shave it off bro" isn't the strongest argument to help people that don't want as much detail as they get, but its also not defending bad paracitices, it couod only be so if detailed models is inherently bad, which isn't the case for the majority of people according to your own poll. I think you point about the detail on separate sprues is the way to go personally as that also positively effects people who like detail by allowing for more customisation and kitbashing, but it can only be good if it comes at no extra cost to the consumer and as it would require more plastic I don't see how any company would price it at the same price Overall I want to stress again that I'm writing this because I'm a fan of your work and I don't think you tackled this one brilliantly, I emplore you to have another think about it and actually try to see why people might like the detail because it's clear to me that you came into the production of this video with the intent to "prove why wanting more detailed models is wrong" instead of "understanding why people would want more detailed models" Sorry for the negative message, but I do it out of the love for your channel

I'LL OVERDESIGN YOUR MODELS BBY

I think GW could sell two standards. Let the market dictate which models get manufactured more. Like a ‘vanilla’ version of models.

i'd rather have more detail especially for hq or named character mainly because i want my moneys worth, i don't want them to be simple like gunpla which have a lot of flat surface

Lovely video and analysis

it really is a double edged sword, details...

I’m loving the old Bretonnian miniatures, less detail but for mass units so easy to paint well. The new miniatures are far too complex to build and far too fiddly, it really isn’t good for people with reduced dexterity

Dont buy those products or only second hand, as i did with some of the boxed sets i liked.

I prefer detailed models… I spend way more time painting than playing and I actually prefer it this way! The older simpler models just don’t click with me!

GW models are designed for injection moulding not the end user

I will respectfully have to disagree that the comparison of injection molded kits can be compared to 3D printing in any regard. There’s a lot of cost incurred from producing a mold designed for production scale injection molding. You can’t just throw a 3d model into a slicer. Precision subtractive manufacturing (which is what most injection molds are made by) is incredibly expensive.

“Leave m’lady Games Workshop” 😂😭

I really dont think terrain was a good example for representing your point. Honestly, I don't think your main point in making a product that is more user-friendly was really in contention either. I genuinely don't believe people are defending the minis being a nightmare to put together. The painting though I do and don't agree with. For instance this is a common debate in AoS vs Warhammer Fantasy groups. AoS minis are overdesigned and Warhammer Fantasy minis are bland. I love the High Elves and the Lumineth Realm lords but if you asked me which I think look better on the tabletop I would say the lumineth 100% but that doesn't mean I disagree with the fact that they are a challenge to paint. Tassels ,trim, accents, trinkets galore and while I think it's bit too much if you would ask me what details I would want to take off the mini I really couldn't tell you which ones I would want to because the end result after you put in that effort is stunning at least imo. It's a double edged sword but in terms of the visuals of the minis I like them but youre definitely right about the sprees of the minis tgemselves

Conclusion: 3d printing wins.

The only reason GW make models like this is because of Chapter House, and I think that's pretty pathetic because I don't think GW is or ever was at risk of losing out to third party manufacturers, it's just greed. The other thing that gets me is the amount of soft detail, look at the teeth on a lot of gretchin models for example, it just isn't very well sculpted which seems like a con to me when they charge so much and to me it's less about manufacture than it is laziness and that, with the greed is showing GW take customers for granted, which also shows a lever of contempt for customers. It isn't just GW that is affected by that attitude but it's quite egregious with GW.

Clearly you all have never built a car model from the 60's or 70's. Parts that DO NOt fit. Instructions so vague that only intimate knowledge about the vehicle will assure a decent result. Parts that seem to float in space. Parts that have so much flash and pin marks it takes hours to file, sand and straighten them so they can be used at all. Ejector pin marks on surfaces that will be visible on the finished kit. Parts that are so out of scale that making a new part is preferable to using the kit supplied item. The list goes on.

Or idk just cast shadows and you dont hsve to paint them, istg you've made so many videos about this stupid shit i cant believe yt keeps making me come back.