She say, "Do you love me?" I tell her, "Only partly. I only love Patroclus And my mama. I'm sorry." -swift-footed Achilles

Another important thing to mention is that just like the Greek language has different words for love it also has different words for anger. Menis is not simply rage, but divine rage, and so more broadly the story is about Achilles coming to terms with the fact that he is not a god, and divine rage is inappropriate for him. What Priam helps Achilles realize is that he is not some god who is owed devotion and obedience, and who can make sweeping decisions on a petty whim, but a man who must respect other men, because even the best of men is still a man and will live a comrade to man, and will die a man like his comrades.

Burrito of rage is the best description of Achilles ever.

So the point of the Iliad is... You wouldn't like Achilles when he's angry.

The Illiad is not the story of the Trojan War, it's a story set in the Trojan war. I'ts similar to Saving Private Ryan. It skips the first 90% of the war. It doesn't have fall of Berlin, it omits the Enigma decoding, ... It tells a fictional story during one of the crucial moments of the end of the war, with that war as a setting

I'm greek, born and raised in Greece and we do some parts of the Iliad at the second grade of middle school. Not in literature. Iliad is it's own subject for some reason as is the Odyssey. I always had this theory that the ministry of education puts the Odyssey in the first year of middle school because it's a "calmer" piece of literature. After all, it's about a guy who's trying to get to home and it's taking him 10 years and we just start our journey as middle schoolers trying to graduate middle school and then highschool... And then in the second grade they give us the Iliad, a story in which the angry guy in the end UNDERSTANDS and talks calmly with A FUCKING PARENT. NOW IF THAT'S NOT A METAPHOR FOR GROWING FROM AN ANGRY TEEN TO A SENSIBLE PERSON WHO FINALLY UNDERSTANDS HIS/HER PARENTS I DON'T know what it is. (( φαντάζομαι όλους τους Έλληνες στα σχόλια να σιχτιριζουν την ώρα και τη στιγμή και να απαιτούν να τους δοθεί πίσω ο χρόνος που σπαταλησαν από τη ζωή τους διαβαζοντας ερμηνευτικές για την Ιλιάδα και την Οδύσσεια στο Γυμνάσιο 😂😂))

Achilles: aw darn my wifeys gone oh well gonna go take a nap Also achilles: i'm sorry patroclus is W H A T OH NOW SOMEONES DYING

where were analyses like this 10 years ago when my teacher would tell me that the illiad was about Achilles rage and never proceed to elaborate why so i never understood why untill this very day? Thanks overly sarcastic productions you just resolve a very deep personal question as a reader for me

That scene between Achilles and Prium on its own is excellent. “But even enemies can show respect.” Goosebumps.

Because sometimes history is kind to us. *looks at where the library of Alexandria should be* THANKS HISTORY

Achilles was one angry boyo

This was my favorite scene in the whole thing honestly. The humility Priam shows for the sake of his dead son, the initial unwillingness of Achilles to cooperate being broken down by the appeal to his humanity. The big hero brought down to the level of this frail old man, seeing eye to eye. Its a conversation that shows honestly one of the best sides of humanity, a side media rarely portrays as meaningfully as this, if at all. Despite how cruel and destructive this war was for both sides, two people in mourning show the people behind the conflict, not the soldiers, but a father and a friend, and how despite the events found truce. Achilles' rage was fueled by his love of Patrolcus, Priam's willingness to show respect to the hand of his son's murderer was fueled by love, and the truce they held was caused by the love they both understood. Gog I fucking love this scene

Interestingly, all heroes' names have etymologies that fit to their character: Achilles: _"The sorrowful wanderer"_ or _"the sorrow of enemies"._ (Debatable) Odysseus: _"The hated one"_ Agamemnon: _"Unbowed"_ Menelaus: _"The wrath of the_ (armed) _people"_ Hector: _"Holding fast"_

1:53 aww why not the L'iliad?

Oh wow, the story that starts with the line "SING THE RAGE OF ACHILLES" is about Achille's rage. Who would've thought?

Oh frig blue is talking about literature

Great video, but I'm a little disappointed you didn't think to say that Troy got des-TROYed at 2:03

"Overly Sarcastic Productions has uploaded: 'What's the point of the Iliad? (or why book 24 is actually the climax)'" Me: "Oh cool another Red video!" *Opens video* *Blue starts talking* Me: "This isn't right"

The Iliad is an anti war book. Homer shows us the pointlessness of the loss of life by telling us the life stories of individual (and not at all important to the main story)soldiers who are eventually killed in the war. As well as glimpses as to how he believes war should be conducted like with the one on one fight between Paris and Menelaus . Having the people who started the war be the only ones who fight. But then brings us back to reality when Aphrodite saves Paris at the last minute to remind us that that's not how things are.

Telogony is actually fairly interesting because it’s the conclusion of Odysseus’ curse by Poseidon. He can’t stay at home and thus has to journey inland; where his son by Circe kills him. Thus he didn’t get to go home fully.

“Achilles is one _angry boio_ ” what a wonderful way to describe it

I've always understood the Illiad as an anti-war piece, kind of showing how it corrupts and destroys. Achilles rage is definitely the center piece though, and Troy was such garbage.

Thank you so much for this, it is such a lovely tribute to a poem that I adore! Could I add something else, though? See, IMO, it's not just about Achilles's anger; it's also about anger in general. I mean, Achilles isn't really onscreen (onpage?) that much, which is odd if it's All About Him. Instead, we get a lot of scenes of other people fighting, involving a great deal of Our Heroes a) killing people who are actively begging them for mercy, and b) standing over the bodies of their dead enemies gloating about how sad their parents and wives are going to be and how great that is. And none of this is seen as problematic, or even commented on particularly. Plus, Homer is a Greek writing for a Greek audience, and he panders to that audience in pretty obvious ways; but all of those ways are about making the Greeks seem more badass than the Trojans. You often see Trojans humiliated and terrified, but you almost never see Greeks like that, for example. Basically, this seems to be written both about, and for, a warrior culture where badassery is the main thing that matters, and mercy comes in pretty much nowhere. So when Achilles shows mercy to Priam, he's not just letting go of his own anger, he's stepping outside of the boundaries of his entire culture. And the audience sees (hears? reads?) him - the greatest warrior ever - do that. Then we end on Hector's funeral; again, if it was all about Achilles letting go of his anger, shouldn't it end in his tent, when he gives Hector's body back? But it doesn't. We go ahead and see the thing that Our Heroes have been gloating about all through the book: the grief and mourning of the loved ones of a dead enemy. And... maybe it isn't so much fun when you actually get to watch it? So this is Homer, after having presented the warrior culture without comment throughout the story, gently asking his audience if, maybe, being like this might be a bit of a bad idea. So while this is, one one level, a really moving personal story about one guy letting go of his rage, it's also very much a story about the very beginnings of a shift in a culture. Away from brutality/rage as a driving force, and towards the possibility of mercy. It is, so far as I'm aware, the very first recorded example in human history of someone writing sympathetically about that: the possibility of mercy, even to an enemy. Which is one of the reasons I love it so much.

Achiles rage was described as more than our human rage, it was like what the gods feel when their devine order is wronged

Johnathan Shay in his book, “Achilles in Vietnam” compares Achilles’s arch in the Iliad to Vietnam veterans who were under his psychiatric care. He describes it as the perfect representation of PTSD and how “good men” go berserk...

"Sing, o muse, of the rage of achilles" is such a great quote, and the reason why I hate golden child Achilles in media, because he was so angry and I think that's so important, even after he learns to forgive, he still has that rage, I think the take away for the Priam scene is that one may show respect for ones enemies even while refusing to forgive them or forget what they did, you have a right to not forgive, you have a right to never forget, but being able to put that aside and show an enemy respect is strength, learning to live with your anger even if you can't let it go is important sidenote, the trojan war on the greek side and on the trojan side is great because it's a classic case of a five man band vs a villain and their dragon Agamemnon is more of a mission giver than a member of the band for reference Achilles- Hero Patroclus- Lancer Ajax- The heart or just another smart/powerhouse (the second Ajax feels like they're connected in a sort of Gemini scenario tbh) Diomedes- The powerhouse Odysseus - The smart guy Paris- villain (technically) Hector- The dragon The interesting parallels are Achilles and Pat vs Paris and Hector Achilles and Pat are both trained warriors but Pat seems sort of like a professional but friendly guy, Achilles is more like a cocky 18 year old, which makes sense due to the fact that Pat is actually his senior in age. Achilles is more powerful but he's less mature, Pat is more serious but less powerful, not to say Pat is more mature, but he is more serious, since he has a mean streak too, at least before Chiron th leads to Hector and Paris, Hector is a trained soldier and smart, while Paris is cowardly and not really trained, hence why most of his shots were guided by Apollo. Hector is very obviously the Dragon here as other than the Gods, Paris started this war

I guess Patroklos being Achilles gay lover didn't sit well with the marketing team.

difference between greek and indian mythology 1. greek have oracles who see things to kickstart plots 2. indian mythology has sages who are boon and curse dispensers to kickstart plots

Nice that they'd keep a 24-book poem alive about the costs of rage and revenge, and the importance of respect and self-compassion/self-forgiveness.

Just a little side note on the Odyssey since you brought up the original version. It’s first word in ancient Greek is Άνδρα (I probably messed up the accent) which means “man” so, yeah, the Odyssey is the story of a man (actually two because there’s Telemachus, but he doesn’t really do much). Sorry if I misspelled something buut I’m Italian and damn is English tough to learn. Toodles ٩( ᐛ )و

I don't understand why this channel doesn't have 1 million already this KZfaq Channel helped me pass my test on Greek Mythology

For a story that's so famous, it's surprising how little is told at large. Nice work Blue, I can't speak for anyone else but I've never heard this view of the Illiad before, and it does make a lot more sense. Thanks :)

Best Friend is a really weird way to spell Boyfriend.

We were looking at the Iliad and the Odyssey in my current Greek History class, and lots of my professors and other students talk about the Odyssey as being the "better" of the two, but I really do like the Iliad more... Maybe it's because I've read lots of Shakespearean tragedies, so i like my "doomed to die" tragic heroes to be especially flawed in obvious ways, but it really has a strong emotional core, even if the plot is a bit lacking! You're so right - Achilles rage really is at the centre of the story. At the start it's a bit whiny-pissbaby rage, bc Agamemnon stole his "war prize" and thus his glory, but after Patroclus dies, it's an even more powerful rage, bigger than the previous, big enough to overcome his plan of sitting out the war. It's enough to fuel him into doing laps of Troy chasing down Hector after fighting a frickin army in a river that was also fighting him. Book 23 and 24 really are important - how do you come down from a rage that's already been avenged? Achilles is still mad, even after he's dragged Hector's body around and the dogs have had a go. It's not going to bring Patroclus back. It's so powerful that amidst this rage that will probably never truly leave him (and he really was a hothead to start with anyway), there's this moment of human connection and decency that gets to happen. It feels very cathartic to read. It feels very human. A powerful resolution for a story that truly is so full of woe.

Great video Blue. I was wondering, could you please make a history video about the Ancient Celts?

one thing I'd like to point out is something else i think the film got right. A lot of the costumes. The armour, the weapons, from what I can tell are all clearly sourced in archaeological finds of 10th century BC kit from greece and nearby places, which i'm surprised people don't bring up more

This video makes me feel so many emotions, Achilles' character development and downfall are so tragic and fascinating.

Thank you for this explanation of the Epic Cycle. It's kinda amazing that I never realized how little of the Trojan War The Iliad covers. All the story elements that I know from the Trojan War, the Apple of Discord, the abduction of Paris, Achilles used to be a destroyer until he took an arrow to the heel, the Trojan Horse, Troy falls....*NONE OF THESE THINGS WERE IN THE FRIGGIN' ILIAD* I was always under the impression that they covered these things but I just forgot them. And yet somehow remembered Achilles refusing to fight until Patrocles dies and him having a showdown with the strongest warrior of Troy. But why would I remember those things but not the cool stuff I actually wanted to read The Iliad for? Man, I really must have zoned out for this book.

I've heard from other sources that apparently Patroclus was Achilles lover not his cousin or friend, that's why he was so mad.

So... You're saying we know the lost parts of the Iliad thanks to Iliad fanfiction that survived past the ages. Neat!

I would like to argue that, minimal though it was, the screen time that Odysseus gets in "Troy" was also done well. Odysseus is portrayed as this kind of nuts genius guy, as well as an excellent general and tactician, and he was all of those things. I haven't read all of the "Iliad" but I have read the "Odyssey", and it's MAGIC.

I figured the illiad also had a bit to do with Hector as well. There's a lot of focus on his skirmishes with the achians and how much he means to his wife and son and the people and warriors of Troy. He is their champion doomed to fall at the hands of Achilles and the illiad ends not long after his funeral.

I really liked this one. I hope you guys do more like this video. Discussions on how a plot is structured around the stories themes and purpose is always something that grabs my undivided attention

This is my favorite episode, by far (don't tell Red!)! Thank you for your passionate explanation of this epic poem. When I originally read it (very long ago *awkward cough*), all I understood was his rage. On and on it went! By the end, I didn't care about the message or that he had changed. I was so frustrated! I missed the point of it all... until you mentioned it today and I thought back on it. It was about war, but from a different perspective. It was about decisions that are sometimes out of your control and some that are painful to make, but you are responsible for them. Even in war, where you always lash out with your anger and take away someone that is loved from this world, you can also show kindness, giving them respect and honoring that love that is now lost. Acknowledging our Humanity and grappling with those polarizing feelings is what makes war so hard for everyone involved, especially soldiers who have to deal with it first hand, every day. That's what made this an epic moment. I'm sad that it took so long for me to understand that. So, thank you for this episode. It made a huge impact in my life today. Thank you 💙

My personal head cannon is that the entire epic cycle was inspired by the Greek Muses in order to eventually inspire the masterpiece that is the Song of Achilles.

I recently read the novel “The Song of Achilles.” First of all, fantastic romance. But it helped me to better understand the plot of the beginning of the Trojan War AND made me go back and reread the Illiad on my own (Crazy, right!?) Can’t wait for Madeline Miller’s next book about Circe to come out! Just a couple of thoughts after watching this great explanation video. Thanks Overly Sarcastic!

Great video Blue! Not everyone understands the ending of the Iliad, so I'm glad someone with your platform is helping them understand! One comment I would make is to substitute your translation from "rage" to "wrath". Rage can sometimes be justifiable, but Achilles was taking things way to far (what, with the fighting the river god bc he is just out of control, and dessecrating/trying to dessecrate Hektor's corpse, which was the worst thing you could do to someone since they couldnt pass the river styxx in the underworld).

Seriously you two blow my mind constantly your videos. Please please please please keep up the good work

Blue speaking in beautiful greek was probably the sexiest thing I have experienced in the past 6 months.

I'm amazed you did all that without making a Shared Cinematic Universe joke. Patrocholus is usually a relative of Achilles, that really didn't contradict the Gayness to the Ancient Greeks.

We had to watch Troy in my World Literature class in high school. The scene where Achilles passes back and forth angry screaming "HECTOOOOOR" is still an inside joke that gets frequently quoted amongst my friends.

WOW! I'm stunned! Amazing info, but what's really flooring me is, this is the first time I'm seeing this vid, that's been out for two years? That's just about as long as I've been sub'd!

rage, rage against the dying of the light...woops wrong poem

Red and blue love your content. I hope that it does double duty as school work and work to pay for school. Ps my dogs love to listen so I set a playlist and have it playing while I'm at work.

I do so love the terms "Achilles blanket burrito" and "bloody murder canyon" as used in these vids. Thanks guys!

I've been watching this channel for months and I love it, but for my college mythology class I was given this video to watch to learn about the Iliad. I had no clue tho it was this channel, it made me really happy that my teacher gave me a video to watch that I had already been planning to watch later anyways as a school assignment.

7:05 to be fair Patroclus was BOTH Achilles' cousin and lover. The movie removed the "intimate friend" part.

When it comes to the movie Troy, I think the way they portrayed Achilles, while maybe not accurate, is awesome! We have a man who is so talented in combat that he has never been wounded. Because of that, he wears lighter armor than every one else. At the end, having Achilles die because he took an arrow to the heel and he jsut couldn't handle the pain because he's never been in physical pain.

I love your videos they're so cool and I love how you explain mythology and history

Please please please do the other poems! There are so many conflicting sources but yall do your research so well and tell it in such an entertaining and understandable way that it's honestly more informative than my own research. I really wanna hear ya'll's sarcastic take on the other poems

In another thousand years, analyses like this might be the only way future historians will be able to reconstruct the _Illiad._ It's a weird thought.

Blue, your Greek was good in that (coming from someone who speaks Greek), good job!

I've studied the iliad a number of times through middle and high school, we also had to memorize pieces of it but I've never seen the point of it until this video. Thanks blue now I really want to go back and re-read it with this insight 😄

This was a really amazing video! I love things like this

Well, before I even watch this video, I'll say that I thought the whole central conflict of the Iliad was described in Book I, where Thetis tells Achilles that he can either live a short but glorious life, and be remembered through history, or live a long and peaceful life, but be forgotten after he dies. And the Iliad is all that question of which is more important; glory, honor, or life.

I actually *LIKE* Troy...for what it is: a Hollywood movie. An entertaining one at least. Another historical flick is Alexander the Great and that was plenty accurate but what the hell happened when it came to execution? It was a borefest.

I really enjoyed Troy and still do. It has a few short comings but I wouldn't have found this channel without it. (I was searching for "what really happened during the trojan war" and you video on Thebes popped up a week later)

Amazing, just amazing. Thanks for these videos!!!

"Even enemies can respect each other"

So the Iliad is basically the Iron Man 2 of the Greek Cinematic Universe?

After watching all of your videos.....this is the best best one by only a little. Thank you for making history AWESOME

this is actually really helpful.. nice job :)

I would love to see you guys do a summary of The Nibelungenlied (Siegfried's Legend.)

Isn't Red supposed to be doing these? Has there been a coup in the channel? With all the history research Blue must have done he definitely, learned how to stage one.

Other than being a really important key to interpret the story, thanks for including book 24 since it was left out of Red's summary.

I learned a lot of new things today, thanks!

This makes the story even more kinda sad.

I'm Greek and damn dude good job with the reading! Are you taking ancient Greek classes?

Sorry, I'm late to the game, but what is that beautiful soundtrack at the end? It's soothing and so appropriate to your video's message.

What's the song playing in the background? Great video summarizing complex poetry. Great help for students.

Doesn't Iliad translate to "Troy Story" so how is it not about the Trojan war?

I love how you could have made the title clickbaity like "the 1 thing troy did right", but rather chose to stay with the topic. Thanks Blue. :)

Nice work! I'm usually more of a Red fan, but good for you, Blue!

Hey, I really enjoy watching both blue and red’s videos. Would you consider talking about BraveHeart aka William Wallace and Robert the Bruce since the actual history is not the same s the movie.

I feel like casting Sean Bean as Odysseus was a good choice.

When they have to make Achilles and Patroclus cousins because "no homo!" Oh yeah and great literary analysis, btw.

I did my first year of Ancient Greek and Latin in the past school year, and half of the year in Greek was spent on the Iliad. Our final exam was to translate (a simplified version of) Priam's plea to Achilles. It had quite an impact on me to read it in Ancient Greek, and this video perfectly encapsulates what I think about the entire Iliad.

Really, really good video blue!

Blue: Patroclus (Achilles' BFF) Me: Sure you don't have one too many Fs in there?

It’s also about the tragic nobility of Hector

I really appreciate all your videos and insights, and am curious if you could do a review/critique of the movie Troy? What is it that you don't like about it so strongly? Thank you and goodnight.

Thanks for writing my AP Lit essay!

While I enjoyed the movie Troy, I know it was more of a Swords and Sandals movie than actually sticking to the source material. However I don't think it should be discounted, as it is a better version of the Homeric Epics than other attempts (Excluding Troy: Fall of a City because I haven't seen it). With that in mind, I do feel like directors need to actually make the War of Troy into a proper film and actually follow the source material more.

I submit that casting eric bana as hector was a great choice. He deserved a better movie.

Would you guys ever do a video on Atlantis? I think it would be an interesting topic to talk about

I'm new here but I love ur vids could u do more on Greek myths pls they are rlly interesting

Well, that revelation is less impressive when you realise the first sentence of the book says its about Achilles rage

I have no proof of my O'Toole fanboying theory, but it would be nice if that Giant among actors stormed into Petersen's (or whoever else responsible for Troy) office, and forced that scene as a condition for participating in.... what Blue said about it.

Love this. I always turn into a blubbering mess round about the end of book 7 when both sides are burying their dead. Does a lot for the characterization of Agamemnon and the Greek is delicious.

In my own humble opinion the Iliad is about the clash of duty vs desire (reason vs emotion). Hector is a paragon of the sense of duty, its very embodiment actually: His name could be roughly translated as "Defender" and ALL he does conform to his duty to Troy. He literally breathes for Troy as if nothing else matters. That's why the most famous phrase of the Iliad is spoken by his lips: "Εις οιωνός άριστος, αμύνεσθαι περί πάτρης"(=The best omen is the defense of your homeland). In the scene where he is talking to his wife about their son he says that the main reason he fights for is to secure Troy and the birthright of his son Astyanax (="City King") to the throne of Troy. Achilles on the other hand is pure desire or emotion: He abstains from combat due to his wounded pride. He's been wronged clearly but he doesn't fight when even when the Trojans have penetrated deep into his hole/camp (pun intended). And when Patroclus dies, he gets back into the fight for purely emotional reasons. In the end Priam tries to talk some sense into this glory-junkie man-child and he succeeds by appealing to his emotions. Hector the sensible dies by the hand of Achilles the wrathful (=emotionally immature). The Sense of Duty dies by the hand of Desire. Reason dies by the hand of Emotion. That is the Tragedy of the Iliad and that is the Tragedy of Man since time immemorial.