Beau Taillefer Sir, thank you for this.

Beau Taillefer Thank you!!!

+Beau Taillefer Excellent posts like yours are why I think in spite of the 5-10% or so of comments that are from trolls and miserable whiners complaining about the fact that the free lessons they find aren't perfectly tailored to suit them, there is real value in the KZfaq musician community; most of us are here for inspiration, and to share tips, ideas, opinions (in a civil manner) and helpful instruction with each other. I bet you got a lot out of that exercise too, so its win/win.

Thanks! I typed this up for myself and figured it would be helpful to share for others. I've listened to this several times a year for 5 or 6 years and it always gets me back on track.

"Be careful to make triplets clear, not like eighths or sixteenth notes" is not exactly right. What he said was "Be careful to make triplets clear, not like *dotted* eighths or sixteenth notes". But excellent summary, otherwise! Thanks!

Right on

Master musicians also know how to break the rules and break the fundamental principles of music, expanding and innovating.

Indeed. Patience, persistence. Also I feel this is very appropriate: Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. It feels bad, and very sad, when you are talended and smart, but you don't have persistence. In music for example.

+christianmillermusic yes, this is probably true in all fields

+christianmillermusic The sole prerequisite is the desire to do it...

BeaverChaser THAT IS AN EXCELLENT IDEA I LOVE VIDEOS LIKE THAT!

He has albums like that rejoicing, trio stuff, song x etc

You're welcome!

@@JelleWillems Hey man, now what standard they are playing?

Lucas Ray Exp [LRE] mr p.c.

@@LucasLucasMusic Mr PC

I'm finding that while Pat's harmonic vocabulary is definitely rich, I don't think he tends to think in terms of scales and modes as much as he thinks in arpeggios/chord-tones, extensions, and altered extensions. In fact, a lot of his playing would be traditionally considered harmonically unjustifiable, but he's able to pull it off through his ability to still resolve to chord tones on strong beats or by the rhythmic/structural phrasing and logic of his lines. I think all of this is elucidated by examples in his actual playing here, as well as by what he says here. "If you have great time, you can play anything". Notwithstanding the dubious simplicity of this advice, I think having great time in the Methenian sense isn't just having a steady tempo and even subdivisions in your playing, it's knowing where you are at any particular time in a song's form, when and how to add more tension to your lines in the greater context of a solo, etc. He's not saying harmony is unimportant. He's simply stressing the rhythmic dimension in using harmony that is inseparable from it, that for must of us tends to be an afterthought.

In sum, it's not so much what you play as much as how you play it. That's the greatest takeaway for me. If you try to learn this solo by only paying attention to what notes he plays, but ignore his articulations, dynamics, rhythmic feel, eg how the line is actually being played, I GUARANTEE you, it will sound uncharacteristic, boring, and uninspired. The soul of a line, the character of a line's sound is in HOW the line is played.

@@trevorbadger91 I'm learning what he played in this video too. It's a treasure trove of great phrasing, rhythmic variation, and dynamics. I've been playing for 30 years or more now, and my technique is as solid as it will probably ever be. However, my phrasing is awful- just awful. I spent so much time learning technique that I ignored the most important aspect of music- making music. I've been listening to this video for years (I've made an audio copy of it and listen to it in my car) I've worked very hard in order to hear eighth notes, triplets, sixteenth notes, etcetera in my mind while I am soloing- I've gotten pretty good at that. However, my phrasing- ugh! I've also been learning a lot from Peter Farrell's videos. He is a student of George Benson, and he talks about a lot of the same stuff that Metheny talks about. I've had lots of teachers, and even graduated with a Masters in music, and no one ever told me the things that I've learned from this video and from Peter Farrell's videos. This is top tier information that only the top 1% of jazz guitarists seem to know about. It's what separates them from the rest of us. Yeah, I can play their stuff, but there was always something missing when I played their lines. I didn't sound as good as them even if I was playing the exact same notes. I sounded like crap. I never knew why, but now know why. Judging by what you've written here you seem to know why too.

21:35 who is he talking about?

@@svensvensson6705 yes,it was edited out. Who would you guess he is talking about?

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/i7KSorijvZPDoIE.html&ab_channel=DanielPinto

This.

Why would he? He makes great money performing worldwide.

GREAT summary. I'd like to add that he said your 8ths should be much closer to straight 8ths, and more equally weighted

teddy d Thank you. Yeah, that too.

Pat was right about the guys rhythm ...although when he talked about the triplet Pat did play a lot of 16th notes. I also thought Pat was understating the harmonic aspect of what was being played as not everyone can play over changes with only chord tones and extensions in real-time and the guy taking the lesson was basically playing scales. I bet Pat could effortlessly play over Giant Steps wheras the guy would struggle through it if play it at all.

I think the triplet thing is Pat's way of talking about the circular nature of rhythm... and the way swung eighths (and swung sixteenths) should have that triplet sound in jazz. That's what makes it swing, is if you can feel the triplets over eighths. That was my interpretation of it, anyway -- more feeling the triplets over everything rather than just playing triplets. Good point about the harmony. Maybe too advanced, right? Just playing chord tones (with no extensions) would probably be challenging enough, let alone adding in more specific harmony.

And since then, Burton has worked with a young Kurt Rosenwinkel, and now Julian Lage. It seems that Gary has a nose for up-and-coming guitarists.

Gary was right, also Pat has said he had wanted to start his own solo career in the earnest and record his debut (maybe independently) back in 1974, not long after he joined Gary's band, but Gary advised him against it, saying he needed more experience, so Pat relented. But Gary knew....

This is about absorbing what you can. I think that is how it is with most high profile players in lessons such as these.

That's really it. No one is going to hand it all to anyone on a platter. And, even if they could, which doesn't really seem possible, it couldn't all be absorbed at once anyhow. This is to say, persistence eventually pays off. You may not get it in one lesson, or even in 100 lessons, but maybe on the 150th lesson something big will click for you and you will make a leap forward in your playing.

Guitar students such as beginners or intermediate players represent lots and lots of lovely undeclared tax-free $$$$$$$ to guitar teachers! Most of them couldn't teach a dog to bark and know it.

Children need motivation from teachers. Grown ups get motivated by listening to good players. What I would want from a master class is honest feedback and demonstrative examples - which Pat is giving in spades.

+Kdog123123 You can play on top, behind, or on the beat. Behind the beat is the relaxed feel you hear in Dexter Gordon's playing. You play at the same speed as the meter of the tune, but slightly behind. On the beat is when you play exactly where the beats are. Etc.

Sonny Rollins!

Really? I though 'Lovano' or 'Garzone', but you might be right...

I think you’re correct

mr p.c. - coltrane

ouch

It was done out of kindness and respect for someone.

Rejoicing 1983, Question and Answer 1989 and Trio 99/00 and Trio 99/00 Live. All trio playing standards and are brilliant.

@@pigsyj5008 I'm a little late to the reply, but thanks!

@@trevorbadger91 No problem.

@@trevorbadger91 It's a different style of playing, but if you haven't heard it check out a record of Billy Cobham from 1976 called "Life and Times" with Scofield. Fantastic modern style jazz rock/funk.

Even though the rhythm is technically a triplet, most players "swing" slightly differently than others. Many play it with a more even 8th note approach (but never actually playing straight 8ths). Transcribing solos and playing along with them has helped me get a feel for what he means. It takes a long time to really get down, and I have a ways to go.

Bobby Gotsch Yes, I think I understand what you're saying, I can hear it in hid phrasing. I was puzzled when he said they should sound almost straight - I thought this was a matter of style.

I assumed he was talking about the duration of each note, not the location.

You become part of the rhythm section as a soloist. ....so true !

Oh yeah, and CONVICTION is king as well.

daleturner Right on, playing with conviction, intent is where it's all at! Also, if you can be totally comfortable with all of the "wrong" sounding notes, an entire new world of sound will open up to you.

Jay Umble Amen brosef!!! Well said! Self-editing in "real time" is a dangerous thing! And like you say, play it like you mean it, and everyone will think you meant it. Nice little "safety net," of sorts.

Chord tones are king but can also be boring

Mathew Reichardt Agreed! Anyone who ONLY uses chord tones would certainly be boring as heck! But really, anyone talking about the importance of chord tones usually means they are the "glue" to stick all sorts of harmonic concepts, targets from chromatic passing tones, voice-leading-through-changes things, starting/stopping points for "learned" phrases, etc. They don't mean "only chord tones."

spoken like a Berklee person.

he did not go there. he was sent there as a teacher by gary burton. pat is one of these guys that do not need a college to play and compose and arrange and mix and master...because that's what he would do anyway.

+CTuxford no that guy isnt that good

+handdancin How do you figure? There must be a special reason for a run-of-the-mill player to get Pat's time. What makes you think the player is lame?

bad time and doesn't hit the changes, i mean pretty much what pat said. sometimes bad players get lessons from the top guys. its not like this guy just started playing, but he isn't a standout.

I know the story behind this whole thing. The student is a friend of one of my professors, and what I was told is that he was very rich, and got in contact with Pat. Mind you, this is 30+ years ago so being able to contact and access someone big in Jazz was a lot easier because there was no social media. From what my prof told me, this guy was a terrible player, and wasn’t a very humble/nice guy, and he scored a lesson with the greatest jazz guitarist in the world, and I’m sure he learned a lot about jazz, improvisation, and himself. Let’s face it, he got his ass kicked, and I’ve had many lessons like this, and each time I walk away with something to aspire to, and something new to explore. People are saying Pat is being very abrasive, and I have to politely disagree, because sometimes it needs to be layed out very plain and simple that someone has to get in the shed and make progress. Ultimately, you get what you pay for, but be wise. I hate lessons where I get the “you sound fantastic” bullshit. Like come on!!! Rip me apart haha!

@@themusicianist6258 I agree with. I've met abrasive musicians. I think Pat was assertive, honest, direct, and supportive. He made a very clear case as to why he said what he said, and emphasized it perfectly so that it would resonate. We should all be so lucky!

First One is Mr Pc.

I think anything that can loop up a swing pattern in time is what he is talking about.

Thanks, ikb. I found a pretty cool app that does that pretty well called Drumgenius. You can buy individual loops or groups, or just the whole/future boatload for $10. I guess it would be better to have loops longer than 2-4 bars, but it sounds/feels pretty amazing to me.

Today we have an amazing variety of drums to use via computer software. Samples of real drummers, "machines" via software emulation. Glad to help :)

Think he means complete control. U wouldn't want true triplets though , doesn't sound good

Good question

Simply go back in time to when he was teaching at U Miami or Berklee.... I very much doubt he's interested in teaching at all at this point in his career, other than possibly some brief group seminar at some special event.

he has had clinics with lodging that cost around 4k if I remember correctly

This is probably well over 20 years ago

Mr. P.C.

thanks :0)

Rosenwinkel maybe haha I don't know hes one of the only ones I just cant get into I know everyone likes him I just dont th hink his music is good I've given him a chance many times and heard all his albums

Does he mention someone specifically?

I think he says 'James Van Buren', a 'Black guy from Wichita'.

+Ivan Torres Maybe it's a blow to the ego, but if I had a lesson with Metheny, and he pointed out things to work on, I wouldn't be miffed--I'd be grateful. I'm not paying a teacher to tell me how good I am! :)

The thing is that harmony is deliberately more subjective than rhythm is. When it comes to playing over a tune and swinging , there are things that sound good and bad rhythmically because you are trying to fit into a pocket that has a deliberate feel. Harmony is completely the opposite, at least to me. We can sit around all day and judge on if Coltrane or Bird or Miles played a certain type of musical device and how to execute it, or if something technically corresponds in even the vaguest way with the underlying harmony of whatever chord you are playing over, but its a moot point. I know plenty of amazing musicians who think about harmony as nothing more than cells of notes with various intervallic relationships that are streamlined together, and are completely atonal .... almost to the point of adopting a system more reminiscant of 20th century classical and serialist composers compared to the bebop masters. Coltrane was even this way later in his life, deriving many methods from Slonomisky's book ... a largely atonal approach to harmony that deals with the relation of notes to each other, NOT to the underlying harmony. Amazing musicians, who have made a successful career for themselves think this way. Of course there are amazing guys who think more towards Pat's mentality. He is thinking of a way of playing that can be extremely dissonant and modern at its most complicated but at its core is still a carefully executed system of tensions and releases that takes into consideration the underlying harmony. Who is to say whats right? Was Schoenberg wrong for not wanting to compose like Mahler or Wagner? This is why I love certain teachers and hate certain teachers. Teachers that help you develop what you already have into something better are always the best. Maybe Pat is this way, I didnt listen to the student play, so its hard to know if Pat just didnt like his style or if he had a lot to work on regardless (developing a musical voice so to speak) ... but I generally don't like teachers who present their methods as the end all be all and think anything else is wrong. If everyone approached this music the same way it would be boring anyways, and god knows Ive heard enough bebop for a lifetime.

Continuing on this train of thought. What is honesty? If someone told me my sense of harmony was wrong but another says that they love it who is right? This whole mindset that I frequently see from music students today that they want to get "their asses kicked" in a lesson has never made sense to me and the whole "honesty" thing is usually never more than charade for some big shot to stroke his ego. The best teachers work with students to help them really emphasize their strengths and balance out their weaknesses in a way that is flattering to them. This coming from a guy who has recorded albums with Jerry Bergonzi and George Garzone + did a year and a half of extensive study with Hal Crook during my time at Berklee. I mean this in the best way possible. I think this type of mindset is destroying and preventing younger players from developing something that is more unique. To many players are told that they are doing everything wrong and need to start from scratch.

Metheny's comment, tho, that the student is "floating above" the harmony is spot on. Is this guy really emphasizing the particulars of the harmony as the changes, erm, change? Or is he simply playing a mode or two? It's more of the latter. Sure, musical aesthetics, like any aesthetics, are subjective, but is this student _able_ to play altered patterns over II-V-I changes? It sounds like he can't, more than just he doesn't want to. I don't want everyone to sound the same, either, but there's a difference between choosing a different path and just lacking skill. One can be _able_ to do what great artists have done; in fact, I would say that that ability is often a prerequisite for being a great artist oneself. Being truly great is taking that skill and expanding it to create new sounds that haven't been heard in that way before.

Well, it sounds like this was a one time thing, so pats job here was to really let the guy know where exactly he is now, where he should try to be and what he has to work for the next few years.

+Lkbjazz433 "Mr. P.C." by John Coltrane a/k/a C minor blues

'Mr. PC' by John Coltrane - a minor Blues form.

it is rumored to be dave liebman