Nice, it is such a good base material! I compact it now myself, the 1st year I switched to this method which is when this video is from, I was in the mindset of the opposite side of the coin with compacting vs. not compacting. Without compacting, the chip stone locks into the base better because all the angular stones are open. But after more experience with the method, I like compacting it to tighten up the stones 1st. With that being said, I did 25-30 projects without compacting the 3/4 and they are all holding up just fine... So either way in my opinion, this method works great ✌

Much appreciated!

Thank you, with clay soils as a majority, you definitely have to be more in depth with your planning. But as long as you slope the soil away from your house around the edges and then cover with fabric and stone ( you don't need more than 3-4 inches), you will not have any water issues. General rule of thumb is that If you are not having any water issues in those spots now, you will definitely not after. Open grade stone does nothing but help water drainage and never prevents it. ✌

@@TheChristianHardscaper Thank you!

Very cool, congratulations on the project! I used the method you are explaining for years until I gave in and tried this method, I will never go back. Not to say that its a bad method, just not as good as open grade in my opinion. Especially here in New England. I know that some push hard ./ compacted gravel to resist water getting through but it always will. Then what happens in the winter is the gravel holds onto water more than clean crushed stone, causing more expansion and contraction under the pavers. The best dense grade in the world holds water like a sponge in the winter and so does sand. No matter how hard you compact it, the freeze thaw cycles will cause shifting of the base. With clean crushed stone, it has plenty of open space for water to travel through and drain, but it also has space for water to freeze and expand into without shifting the material so much. I agree that you can build a long lasting patio on top of a base like that, but I also believe that a patio built on open grade base will last much longer.... But all love here brother, just 2 different opinions. ✌

No problem, I am happy to share my techniques. The more people who know it, the better for everyone in the community ✌

I get it man. I just had 15 tons delivered to me and I don’t know if I don’t know exactly what fines are but the 3/4 I got delivered has to lbs of smaller rocks in it. Anywhere from 3/4 to sand. Size rock and everything in between.

No problem at all. I am pretty busy but it is all worth it for sure! It is a great method for clay as long as you can divert the water. It will even help with the drainage all around the project also. Good luck ✌

Awesome, thanks for the support! Given the climate you live in, you should be fine with that plan. At least a small layer of stone under the fabric, you will be good to cover it with smaller stone to lay pavers on and fill the rest in with the decorative stone you choose. ✌🏻

So much granite here in Massachusetts, great building material! I'm not sure I could ever leaver New England, even Massachusetts really. If I ever left, it would probably be to go more north...Maybe New Hampshire or Maine...Lol ✌

@@TheChristianHardscaper I would have gone to the Saco, Maine area, but my wife had other dreams! Making the best of it, though.

That’s a beautiful area! But hey, sacrifice for your wife is a very good thing, nothing wrong with that! I’m sure there are plenty of things to enjoy down there

Glad you like it! We always compact a thin layer of stone over the sub soil height to help stiffen the sub base before fabric. Here is another video I made which explains the backfill method in much more detail 👉kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ec6Rfchkr9eoZn0.html

I’m glad it was helpful. You can use 1/2” however it will probably be harder to screed. I would try to find 3/8” clean stone for the bedding material. 1/4” is hard to find but most places have a 3/8 crushed option

If you are putting a hot tub on the pavers, I recommend doing additional base prep such as additional compaction and maybe even geogrid in between the layers of base stone you backfill with. Typically we pour concrete pads for hot tubs to sit on and lay pavers around the concrete pad. But that way we know the hot tub won’t shift the base at all. ✌🏻

That setup should be fine for the base, however I do not recommend using regular sand for the joints. That will allow surface water to penetrate the base as well as cause the sand to migrate into the chip rock little by little…. The polymeric sand hardens, preventing it from migrating and it blocks 95% or more of the surface water from getting into the base. That’s the main goal for sealing the joints, keep water away from the base as much as possible ✌🏻

Hey brother, no problem at all and I appreciate the feedback! It always blows my mind when contractors can't understand the concept or benefits of this method.... The guys who say 3/8" stone will migrate over the years are the same ones who use sand..... the material that is most prone to wash out known to mankind.... Sand washes away, shifts, sinks and migrates so easily. These guys saying those things never tried this method and that is why they speak against it. I had installed pavers on dense grade (class 5 gravel) and sand for about 7 years before switching to this method 5 years ago. I have done over 150 installs of patios, walkways, walls, steps, etc... using this method and have had 0 issues with sinking / shifting or water issues. All the things that people say will happen with this method but never happen. This method has been being used for decades now and is proven to be superior. I tell contractors who butt heads with me on this that they need to do more research because they clearly do not research at all. They learned the method they use decades ago and they still use it now. You can't teach old dogs new tricks... But if they do not believe or agree, send them this video link from a very well known paver manufacturer (UniLock). It explains the benefits better than I can.... LOL 👉kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jraaaLeYt9zLeZc.html

Amen! ✌

Hey there, I would absolutely recommend the same method but with a few additional precautions... Here is a link to video I made about clay sub soil 👉kzfaq.info/get/bejne/p6eUm8Z5sJvWp2g.html The only thing I don't mention in that video is that if you are installing the patio in the lowest point of the grade around it, you may need to divert the water away with a (French Drain). Good luck with your project! ✌

@@TheChristianHardscaper awesome! Watched your other video, very helpful, thanks again for the information and walkthrough. I really appreciate your reasoning behind the material you use...more about the purpose than the product - as we know, a product can be discontinued but purpose should not 😉

@@grizzly_xavier No problem at all, I totally agree that the purpose is #1 before the product. ✌

You certainly can man, God bless ✌🏻

@@TheChristianHardscaper I’m ready to lay the geo and prep the base. How do I level the base properly? String lines everywhere? Im setting them 3” below the top of paver (1” hpb and 2” paver). Im stumped how to grade the base properly. Assuming perimeter string like and string lines across? Help me brother! ☦️☦️☦️

That is awesome, good for you! digging a bit deeper in some areas is not a huge deal. As far as the clay, I would not be to worried about it if it was not in a low spot, but with it being in a low spot, you may want to dig a trench connected to the base that will help divert the water elsewhere. You can do that with a corrugated drainage pipe buried in open grade base and wrapped with fabric (French Drain) in other words. And I usually always recommend woven fabric, but if you are in a heavy clay soil with water issues already, the non woven may be better for drainage reasons. Good luck and thank you, I love that machine! ✌

Thank you! One final question if I may: Would I start that French drain on the outer edge of the patio where the low spot is or within the patio before my first 1.5 inches of base and Geotex, or after my 1.5 inches in between the next 4 inches of base? I’m such a rookie at this just worried the pipe would eventually create a frost heave or just plain crack. Thanks again for helping us DIY’ers.

I would start the drain about 1-2 feet inside the edge of the low spot. And you want to put the drain above the fabric and then backfill on top of it. Then just send the pipe to wherever you think is best.

Thank you. That is a common misconception with clean stone and woven fabric. Woven fabric drains just fine, I have over 150 installs with this exact method as well as many other contractors here in New England and around the country really. They key though is to spread that thin layer on the sub soil and compact before the fabric. Then when the fabric is covered with more stone, the woven strips open with the jagged edges of the stone, allowing water to travel right through and permeate into the sub soil. The only exception is with a heavy clay sub soil. In that case it always helps to add drainage to divert the water to a lower grade. Here is another video I made explaining the method in more detail 👉kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ec6Rfchkr9eoZn0.html

Water will certainly help with compacting the sub base. But if you are compacting the top layers, it is not necessary with clean stone.

@@TheChristianHardscaper thank you for your reply. Working on a walkway and this Texas heat has dried up and cracked my soil. "It" ain't thinkin' about receiving nothin' without a little water! Lol thanks!

No problem, and yea, if the soil is that dry you should use water before compacting for sure. Good luck!

Glad you liked it. We put a 1" layer of 3/4 stone over the sub soil and compact it. Then we lay the fabric over that and backfill about 5-6 inches of 3/4 on top of that fabric. Then we put 1" of chip stone. Thanks for the support! ✌

Exactly correct, we rake the base out close, check with the pipes and make the necessary adjustments. ✌

You certainly can use that gravel as a sub base. I would recommend laying soil separation fabric on top of the gravel before you backfill with the 3/4 stone. If the gravel seems like it is allowing water to permeate into the ground no problem, then 4 - 6 inches of 3/4 stone will be plenty ✌

@@TheChristianHardscaper thanks!!

Hey there, my pleasure! The concrete sand will absolutely migrate into the 3/4 stone... If you have to use the sand, what you need to do is put a layer of fabric over the base stone and then put the sand on top of that and screed. That will prevent the migration.

@@TheChristianHardscaper I really appreciate your fast response! Thanks for the feedback - will definitely be doing it that way!

@@wames9125 No problem at all, good luck!

So if you have well draining sub soil, you will be fine with excavating 8-10 inches below top of grade. And the rule of thumb is to pitch your sub soil at the same pitch as your pavers. So I recommend digging down 8 inches right along the edge of your existing patio and down to 10 inches at the furthest points. That will give you plenty of pitch and it will account for about 1 inch of stone compacted into the subsoil and then 5-7 inches of stone on top of the fabric. That will be just fine for your install. ✌

We spread about 1-1.5 inches of 3/4 stone on top of of sub-soil, then compact. Then we lay the fabric and typically cover it with 6-8 inches of the same stone. Thanks for the support brother!

@@TheChristianHardscaper thanks

@@TheChristianHardscaper Would it be feasible to do the same with only 1-1.5 inches on top as well for 25 cent cheap bricks in a garden walkway? The objective would be for only 5-6 inch total. The bricks would be normal 4x8x1.5-2inch bricks.

Even using modular stones, can one reduce the over-fabric stone to keep the total thickness around five or six inches?

It certainly is! But just to clarify, you are building a dry laid block wall or a mortared block wall? If the blocks will be mortared together, you need the crushed stone base + a concrete footing. If they are going to be dry laid, you can build right on top of the stone and backfill with the same stone ✌

So it does not have to be granite. Are you saying the stone you got is rounded? like just naturally round 3/4 inch or less? If so, that will still work but 3/4 inch crushed (angular stone) does bind together better than rounded stones. None the less, if you use rounded stone, i would recommend some extra compaction to insure it won't move ✌

So pretty much like the other comment you left, with you being in Arizona and because you don't have access to the materials i used here, I would just go with the classic way to install with gravel (compacted) and use sand for your bedding material. However, if you can find the materials I use, that is the better option. Good luck man! ✌

No problem. I would absolutely recommend open grade base for travertine pavers. Those pavers need to stay dry to last the longest they can, the clean crushed stone helps with that. Laying them on sand / gravel base is not as good in my opinion. Here is another video I made that brings you through the entire backfill method in more detail if you are interested 👉kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ec6Rfchkr9eoZn0.html

@@TheChristianHardscaper Thank you for the comments. I recently found out that the open graded base material is about $80 per yard here on Long Island, versus $15/yard for recycled crushed concrete. It ends up being a couple thousand dollars difference. Because of that, Now I’m considering using the RCA as the base course, with the clear quarter inch stone as the leveling course. Do you have any experience with RCA?… Sounds to me like it’s very similar to a dense graded base(which is difficult to find here). Thanks again

Yea, that is a big difference in price and way more expensive than in my area. I can get 3/4 stone for as low as $22.00 per yard. I think you could use the RCA as your base and it should be fine, just be sure to compact it well as you backfill to prevent any future settling.

@@TheChristianHardscaper Thanks for the advice!

We typically have 6-8 inches of 3/4 stone (including the 1 inch layer under the fabric) but yes, if you get at least 5-6 inches of 3/4 and then 1 inch chip stone, you will be all set. This technique will not fail you ✌🏻

This is the best summary of the work.thank you

I think it would be fine for artificial turf. Securing the edges is something you would have to figure out a plan for, the spikes will not hold tight. I guess depending on the thickness of the turf, you may be able to use concrete. They also have "open grade base" edging and spikes. Google that and im sure you will find a manufacturer near you ✌

String lines and tape measures. We excavate 8-12 inches below top of paver height to account for 4-6 inches of base rock, 1 inch bedding stone and 2.5 inch pavers ✌🏻

It's actually the opposite. the fabric can stabilize an area that does sink by holding tight and not allowing the base stone to drop into the sink hole... This fabric is very strong and once backfilled on, it all holds itself nicely. When there is not fabric, the stone will sink into those holes as well as allow the soil to migrate into the clean base stone.

@@TheChristianHardscaper Got it. Thanks!

Thanks! I have never tried to install turf on it, but I believe you absolutely can. Most people use sand or stone dust under it, which shifts and sinks for more than the open grade stone. The open grade base holds up far better for pavers, so I would assume the same for turf ✌🏻

Thanks much for your response! I’m in Phoenix, AZ and when I inquired about open base, I could not find any hardscaper who has worked on it. By any chance do you have any reference with whom I can work with?

Unfortunately the open grade base method has not been embraced by most contractors yet… A lot of old dogs out there that don’t want to learn new tricks. I wish I had a reference for you but I don’t, sorry. Good luck ✌🏻

@@TheChristianHardscaper Thanks much for your reply! The #57 which I’m getting here is not all angular crushed and contains some smooth rocks and some fines. Is it okay to use the same for base preparation?

@@pradeepd4385 Angular is definitely better, but having some rounded mixed in will not hurt anything really... They just don't lock together as well...

Correct, 1/4" 👍

We put down about 6 inches of stone on top of the fabric. There is 1-2 inches below the fabric which we compacted into the sub soil. God Bless! ✌

thank you God bless you

If you are building a driveway you need to compact in smaller lifts due to vehicular traffic. With foot traffic, you can compact in 6" lifts with this stone. With vehicular traffic, you need to compact every 4" with layers of (Geo Grid) in between the layers to help stabilize the base stone under heavy weight.

Appreciate it I have had the driveway for about 7 years and it’s been great but the area by the road right in the middle must of not been dug deep enough and those pavers always get water under them.. Thanks again

You probably have a slightly larger crushed stone, which will be fine for the project, just a little harder to work with. As far as laying fabric over the bigger stone before the little stone, you can if you want, but I don’t think you have to. The little stone will fill in the gaps of the big stone, once it does, there’s a very slim chance of infiltration. Infiltration issues happen often with sand and stone dust simply because of all the very fine particles. That’s what is great about clean crushed stone, it all locks together and prevents infiltration and sinkage. Good luck man, sounds like you’re doing fine ✌🏻

@@TheChristianHardscaper Nice thank you! With this technique I am bordering my pool so paver end at the fence wich have concrete in the soil deeper than the excavation. Should I do some drain to make water goes further the fencr and post for frost concern around the concrete or will water go under the woven fabric evenly? My soil is sandy I think I will be good but with the cost of those fancy pool fence I dont want to take any chances of lifting it you know ! Thank you for the advices !

sorry for the late response on this. But I think if you have at least 6 inches of open grade base under the pavers you should be all set with extra drainage, especially if the soil is very sandy. But extra drainage will never hurt either. So totally up to you ✌

@@TheChristianHardscaper yeah I did not do extra drainage it already a lot of work alone! I also supose this should be fine thanks!

Yes I would. But with a driveway, I would excavate down to about 15 inches so that I could spread a 5-6 inch lift and compact, then install driveway grid (kind of like geogrid but for driveway stabilization) Then spread the remaining open grade bas and compact again. With heavy vehicles driving over it you want to make sure its packed tight and stabilized with driveway grid. I think what most overlook with dense grade is that even if you compact it thoroughly, it is water that creates sink holes in it. Once it is saturated, the fines work their way to the top and the aggregate works its way to the bottom. It is always shifting and holds water. Open Grade does not move and lets water flow freely into the subsoils.

@@TheChristianHardscaper thanks! That's exactly what I was thinking with the grid and compaction...

I would say most likely just because they never compact around the house perfectly. There is always a chance of that... I would not pour concrete though. Just excavate how you normally would and compact extra heavily along the house as you backfill. Than lay the pavers within 6 ft or so of the house a tad higher of a slope to account for some settling in the future. That should be just fine, they don't usually backfill bad enough for that to be an issue. And if it does sink, it would have sunk no matter what you do... If you pour a lot of concrete, it may be more prone to sink because the additional weight... Then it will be very hard to repair down the road. At least if you have to fix it without concrete, it is a somewhat simple project to lift them up.

@@TheChristianHardscaper great advice bro. Thanks so much! Thanks for sharing your videos. I’m a DIYer and am very good at picking the best pros to follow and plan my projects. You are my top pick for hardscaping! Keep up the good work and thanks again!👍🏼

No problem at all, thanks for the support and good luck with your project! ✌

Yes it can but you need to do a few extra steps... You need to dig deeper and use more backfill material. I use 6-8 inches of base stone for foot traffic applications. You need 10-12 inches of base stone with driveways. You also need to compact the base in lifts of 4-5 inches with a very heavy plate compactor. And in between those layers, you need to lay (Geo Grid) to help stabilize the base. And finally, you need to use pavers that are at least 3 inches thick. If you do all of that, you will be all set! ✌

That will work too, but the closer to 3/4 inch size you can get, the better. Less of a chance for your bedding stone to migrate into the open spaces of the stone ✌

@The Christian Hardscaper Ok, thanks, and thanks for the fast reply, too. 👍

@@briancollins6974 No problem ✌

Exactly. The thin layer fills in small holes and soft spots, giving the fabric a nice base to lay on. Then when you put more stone on the fabric, it opens up all the strands in the fabric which helps water permeate through it better. ✌

@@TheChristianHardscaper thank you very much. I have one more question, what blocks do you use for your retaining walls? Thanks for your time.

@@user-se2jx1qp3z No problem, the blocks I use on the majority of my projects are mad by (Techo Bloc) and are called (Semma). The cap I use are also made by (Techo Bloc) and are called (Architectural Cap)

No problem at all, you certainly can still put it in at that point. It will still help a lot ✌🏻

That fabric is designed for what I am using it for. It's called (Geo-Textile stabilization fabric). It is needed to stabilize but also separate the clean 3/4 base stone from the subsoil underneath and along the sides. If you do not put that in, the soil will migrate into the clean stone over time, causing shifting of the base. This material is completely permeable, the water travels through because it is woven, not solid plastic. ✌

@@TheChristianHardscaper OK I understand now, thank you for the answer.

@@4menotu No problem ✌

I have been using black poly sand made by (Techniseal) this past year, working out great.

It makes for a good angle for sure ✌

Sand is better than stone dust but open grade base and chip rock is way better than sand. The new age of laying pavers is all about clean crushed aggregate. No water under the pavers is the goal and nothing accomplishes that better than clean stone

@@TheChristianHardscaper ok gotcha. Also a landscaper in Mass. But mostly irrigation now so I'm a little out of the loop. But still want to do nice patios at my property and maybe some jobs on the side. Did a bluestone last fall in my backyard and went with 4" crushers run base and stone dust for leveling. Maybe I'll switch my methods

Oh awesome, I love how many locals are seeing the channel. Crusher run base is still a great way to build a patio but using 3/4 inch crushed these past 3 years has really proven to be way better in so many ways… Irrigation is it’s own trade, a lot to know about that.

It is a geotextile stabilization fabric. It is permeable and designed for hardscape installs with open grade base ✌🏻

I understand your thought process and concern, but I disagree. I try to explain it like this. Let’s take this area that I installed the patio and firepit in this project. Before I installed a patio there it was grass. So any rain water that built up in that area naturally permeated down through the top soil and down to the subsoil. That is what happens with the majority of rain water, it permeates down into the subsoils. When we backfill with this method, the base holds no water. Helping to prevent shifting and heaving during the freeze / thaw cycles here in Massachusetts. In other words, any water that may get under the patio will freely drain into the subsoils with no restrictions from a overly compacted dense grade / sand base. I have said it before and will say it again, heavily compacted dense grade and sand absorb and hold onto water like a sponge, which causes so many problems during heavy rains or very cold winters. No offense, but I have worked with both methods and I will never go back to dense grade. ✌🏻

@@TheChristianHardscaper You compacted the subgrade prior to fabric...if this is a permeable system, you should skip that step. Also, only about half of the rainwater generally permeates the subsoils. Yes there is more void space with the larger stone, but dense grade will allow water to flow through as well.

Agreed with this thought process. Subsoil is not free draining, not enough grass, roots, earthworms etc. In New England I would prefer hardpack and that's what I used on my patio