Studio Nu Thanks for sharing that and you’re absolutely right. Game mode is essential so the TV doesn’t add its own few frames of lag on top of an emulator like a mini already adding a few. Sure it’s still not like playing on real hardware or a higher end emulator, but like you said it still feels good and is a lot of fun. I felt the same way.

Even with game mode turned on you are still getting at least 4+ frames of lag. The best TVs out there can hit about 11ms of latency and PC Monitors around 9ms, but you still can't fix those 4 frames over original hardware.

@@charvelgtrs which seems not so bad if you don't own a crt and /or original hardware

I had the same experience but I had already watched the video prior to purchasing the mini. It was actually worse than I thought it would be in normal mode but after switching to game mode it worked just fine!

@@ShmupJunkie Do you know where I could look for a TV with a good game mode? I'm not exactly sure what to look for and don't want to spend money on something that might not perform well.

Oh I still got plenty of trolls unhappy with my results and I took them on as they came 🤣. I’m normally not this sour in any videos but all the input lag mini BS was on my nerves and it had to be done. Game mode is a big one. It’s obvious if you are in the know but I can’t tell you how many comments and people I’ve come across that complain about it but didn’t know. Then they turn it on and suddenly all is well. I did a good HDMI lag video not long after that was well received. That’s another one of those I can’t believe I need to make a video about this kind of things 🤣. But it was fun.

That's awesome then I am glad you did too. I originally made these series of turbo mini reviews to help show people what they are missing by listening to a lot of the negativity that was out there at the time. And I think it influenced a lot of them to give it a shot. Not one has ever come back and complained it wasn't worth it, but too many to count have come back saying how great the games were and thankful they got one. It's how I started my channel and am glad I did.

LORDS is kicking my ass on the MINI, I dont remember it being that hard 25 years ago. Either its LAG or memory lapse

Was a much smaller channel back then so it was hard to get noticed, but this vid definitely made it's rounds and ruffled some feathers. 😅 I'm glad you're finally getting one and my PCE vids were a part of it. There are some killer shooters on that system it's totally worth it, let alone the other games too.

@@ShmupJunkie yeah i grew up with turbo duo. i was the one kid that had one in my area. your story of the cybercore competition is epic man. you earned your tgcd.

RetroHeed Thanks 😊 bud. Lots of time and effort but it seems to be jazzing up the community so it’s been very worth it.

Absolutely. They’ve come a long way from the cheap entry level sets they were originally known for. The only knock against my model is that low latency input won’t do 4K it’s 1080p only. But for my retro purposes it’s perfect.

retroyanx Yeah dude Game Mode is a requirement on any lcd to be able to play. Otherwise it’s adding all kinds of processing designed for tv and film sources. Also I’ve never heard of this Ninja Garden but it sounds amazing 😂 I’d play that.

@@ShmupJunkie its an obscure port , only available in Malaysia ... friggin autocorrect

Okay, I got my SNES classic and the Sega Genesis mini on my TV that have game mode. I have to turned on so I can have a good experience with no input lag, correct.

spriles the US launch was definitely a botch job. I was pretty bummed about it. Now it’s finally out there and I hope they can produce enough. These minis shouldn’t be overpriced collectors items they’re meant for more people to be able to try the games. So I’m hoping more do get made.

I hear ya and not surprised at all. That was my beef, the flooding of trolls with useless perspectives based on little but hearsay. Even though this video showed exactly how much lag the mini has, pretty much the same as any other mini, I wanted to show the facts but also expose the silliness of all the reactions. And the South Park formula seemed the best way to do it. 😂

Brian Thomas Barnhart Some of the reviews I’ve seen are by folks who seem to know and played the games too at a younger age. Which perplexes me cause I had no issue playing Lords specifically. But hey to each their own. I respect if someone has trouble with a game and can’t seem to play it with some extra lag for whatever reason. But when they single a certain game out as worse than others all the minions come out to spread the word like gospel. And it’s spreading an opinion at best and misinformation at worst. I actually had a good bit more content and stuff tested but had to edit for brevity. I may throw things in here and there from it in future stuff. I think I got my point across 😂

I bought a Turbo Duo and Lords of Thunder new from TZD back in the 90s. I've played on original hardware. I have an emulation PC running Hyperspin as well as the PCE mini. Both hooked up through HDMI to the same TV in game mode, the lag is far worse on the PCE mini on Lords. It's not a conspiracy.

RyuHayabusa06 I don’t think anyone said it’s a conspiracy. The PCE mini adds 3-5 frames of lag while your other PC and anything more powerful likely half of that or less. Original hardware even less of course. However I can tell you that I measured my Genesis mini objectively with the same tests and it’s delay is nearly the same to this mini. Maybe you don’t notice it with the types of games but it’s there. Never tested the snes mini yet. Note also in my video that I tested lots of games and they pretty much all had near the same delay as each other. There is nothing unique about LoT vs the others and it’s delay isn’t noticeably worse than Bonk or Soldier Blade. In fact you saw in my video that Blade had the worst measurements of all yet it still seems to play fine. If it “feels” different that comes down to how the game plays. And likely the extra lag contributes to that. I can “feel” the difference too vs playing on my original hardware. So you’re not hallucinating there is a difference vs a faster emulator. I can still play it just fine after a few minutes of adjusting to it.

​@@RyuHayabusa06I'm kind of having the same experience. I am considerably better on original equipment and original hardware on a CRT than I am through the mini on HDMI

You’re in luck as I’ve been seeing them back in stock just recently on Play Asia and some other spots. So you should be able to grab one without over paying. And I have no doubt you’ll enjoy some of the great games on there. These mini videos were how I started my channel over a year ago!

I'll bet it does, the benefit of no added delay from a monitor is nice. I've never tried that adapter but I know the video and one Mark reviewed. Glad you're enjoying Lords it's a killer game. You'll clear it soon enough if you stay on it. I pretty much use the Earth armor exclusively it's by far the most powerful once over a certain power level. Probably the easiest to clear the game with.

Ha, I wasn't sure if people were still finding this old video and test. It was early days and I was playing a salty bastard, but it was fun making that. I definitely had some laughs coming up with it and left that on my white board for a while.

You’re welcome and I’m glad you found this old video and enjoyed it. These original mini videos were the reason I started my channel in the first place. To not believe the bad press and give the games a shot and enjoy them. All mini consoles have a good bit of lag compared to original hardware but these games are all still fun and casually playable. Time has proven me right as this mini is now long sold out and will only get even more expensive. I’m glad you grabbed one before it was too late!

Lol yeah this video was a product of it’s time. I wonder how relevant it still is anymore or if I even keep it up, but at the time it caused quite a stir and some heated comments. It served its purpose though and I had fun with that formula after lol

That's great to hear. And honestly what I get mostly. People glad they got it and love it. Big part of why I made my set of mini reviews.

You’re welcome. And it’s not like mini consoles don’t have lag. Many consider 6+ frames a lot in total. I just personally had no issue with it they all felt very playable to me. But more importantly Lords of Thunder wasn’t any different than all the other games I tested. So people that were complaining that one game had worse lag than the others were full of it. It’s just likely the physics of that game that made it feel more noticeable to them, but the actual delay was the same. I’m really glad you’re enjoying these great games on it and didn’t let the fake news ruin that experience for you.

@@ShmupJunkie honestly, it's likely worse for those that have a ton of PC Engine experience. I don't have any of these games committed to muscle memory yet.

Thanks. Yeah one of these days I need to bring the head banging back for a cameo in the newer videos when it's the right time. Without a doubt the way you're playing is ideal, I have a similar setup. But it sure isn't cheap or easy to do. I have been playing with the Mister lately as well and it works great for PCE so far. The mini was like an inexpensive way for many people to discover the games that don't have the means to play them another way, aside from emulated on a computer with something like Retroarch. And it actually brought a lot of new people into the PCE world. I had tons of friends who loved it, emulated or not. So I was a bit tired of it getting crapped on and wanted to do this. This is probably the saltiest I've ever gotten in any of my videos. 😅

I wouldn't say the lag is miniscule... it's pretty moderate and in line with other mini consoles. Like you said, it's a matter if you can adjust to it or not like many do. I made this one a long time ago but if I remember right, the song was from Air Zonk.

Dead Moon is quite cool I know a few that really dig it. Just enjoy it and don’t worry about the rest. The only way to truly suck is blaming the game.

sdekaar you’re right 100% agree on the tv. Some people that complain have a tv adding lots of extra display lag. I did not expect to be able to score so well on soldier blade on the mini with 7-8 frames but it honestly was good to play. So I was wrong. I thought I would suck in the 2 min but I didn’t 😆

I've just moved from an LCD that was adding around 4 frames of lag on game mode to an OLED that has 6ms at 4k 120hz, I've suddenly "got good" I guess some people are more susceptible to lag than others, it didnt help that I split my gaming between a CRT and a modern display, I don't think the mini pc engine is terrible but it's not up to M2s usual high standards when you also take into consideration the audio delay and the lack of interpolation,.. Also just 1 point on your methodology, your lag test was at 1080p and the mini console outputs 720p, my tests show different results at different resolutions on most tvs,

Pezz 82 All very fair points that I wouldn’t argue. Adding another few frames of display lag on top of the few frames of the mini is a bit excessive. Just as many already feel that those extra 3-5 frames the mini is adding is excessive. Using a decent TV makes a huge difference. And as you noted it suddenly became much more playable. To note on my tester, I did test my particular TV at 720P as well and in this case it’s identical. If it wasn’t the lag numbers would have looked even greater. It was a bit beyond the video scope to mention it but you are correct. Some displays could add additional delay at 720p.

Hey! Cool to know I have some good people watching from Austria and Germany. I was born in Moscow so I have European roots as well. I did recently get a turbo tap and do have the wireless 8bit do controllers to test. I don't think the wireless will be faster because it's not a direct connection to the mini, it connects to a USB adapter plugged into the same control port. So it would either be almost identical, or a little slower. But I would find out when I test it. I don't have an 8bitdo modified yet to test it. I would be surprised if the turbotap added delay, as it's just a usb hub which normally do not add enough to notice, but it is possible if it's a poor design. When I do get a chance to test those things, I will definitely post about it.

Mathieu Hervais If by a lot you mean the same as all other mini emulators then you’re correct. But I’m not sure what you mean by “you’re toast”? The lag certainly wasn’t enough to keep me from both beating and enjoying those same games that I did on original hardware. Nor enough to keep me from scoring top tier when playing the SB 2min mode, something most can’t even do on a CRT. So I certainly don’t need any help ; ) But it does sound like people calling a game unplayable and blaming it on those few frames of lag could certainly use some.

@@ShmupJunkie by "you are toast" that means you are more likely to get shot and this will deter from the original experience. 4 frames of lag is 60ms, in a shooter that's a lot. There are other solutions than using minis or software based emulation, such as real hardware or FPGA based solutions, which add no lag whatsoever (than whatever the original developers intended), which helps mitigating the existing input lag from your display or your usb controllers (not as fast as the original serial ones). These games were not designed with input lags from software emulators, usb overhead or LCD monitors in mind.

Mathieu Hervais All very fair points and ones I would make myself. I don’t think anyone would argue that an FPGA solution isn’t superior. I own every analogue console and love them to death. Not just for the great performance like you mention but the options you have to tweak your experience. But they are also twice the cost or more. To me the mini is a great plug and play budget system for people who have never tried the games before and want to experience them. I know too many myself that are loving it. So the point isn’t that the mini is as good or superior to anything else. Only that it’s a cool piece for a low price that’s still as well done as I can imagine given the price point. And you can absolutely still have a blast with one as I did. That’s coming from someone who owns and has beaten just about every one of the games on there on the original hardware. It’s not perfect. Not even as good as a better emulator or fpga. But it’s still fun and playable. And I think that’s been the gist of all my videos and reviews so far.

Mathieu Hervais btw just curious I got a huge spike in the video views this hour all of a sudden. Did this get posted somewhere on a site where you saw it? Or did you just come across it in search?

@@ShmupJunkie I just posted it my twitter and the classic gaming discord. Other than that, it's been suggested by KZfaq itself, which is how I came across your video.

The Nerd Nest TV Thanks again I do appreciate the great feedback. And based on my numbers the lag is surely there. Dealing with 7-8 total frames is nothing to scoff at. And that’s with a fast display like mine. But so are the other minis so this one is no outlier. The big thing was that all the games test so close to each other, that calling out any one as far worse is odd. With all the time you’ve spent now playing lords will be curious to hear your thoughts when you do finally get the mini to try it on.

Shmup Junkie In my opinion when it comes to emulation on a mini you have to expect a tiny bit of input lag. It won’t be exactly how it is on a CrT on Original Hardware, however it’s still very much playable. Heck I beat Skyblzer on SNES a while ago on a Retron 5 and it had a tiny bit and it was a action platformer. Bottom line is we can all adapt.

The Nerd Nest TV well most of us can adapt. The rest call it unplayable 😆

Bruno L I don’t blame you for all the nes love it was my first too and I still play them a lot when I can. You’ll hit the mini when the time is right. LoT will be waiting to kick your ass lag and all 😆. Honestly it’s not that bad you’ll be getting to the final level in no time.

@@ShmupJunkie highly doubt it 😆 plus I heard LoT is unplayable so I'm just not gonna play it 😆😆 dude MORE VIDEOS!

RyuHayabusa06 without a doubt you’re right a dedicated pc will run games with less delay. Not sure which pc you are using but you’re talking about an intel Core processor and a few hundred bucks or more vs an inexpensive $99 all in one unit, so it should definitely not run more than a couple frames delay vs the 3-5 you’ll get from the cheaper mini. That makes total sense. I’m actually not sure what processor the mini runs but I’m sure it’s nowhere near what you have in the PC running hyperspin.

@@ShmupJunkie Why would that make a difference? I've been using emulation PCs for maybe 12-13 years of differing processing power though HDMI and never experienced the kind of lag I'm seeing on Lords on the PCE mini. The lag shouldn't have anything to do with CPU power. I'm not experiencing that problem on any games on the SNES or Genesis minis.

@@RyuHayabusa06 over 3 frames of lag is no small matter, but this is not the worst you can get from those emulator boxes. Far from the worst, I think.

@@RyuHayabusa06 A shot in the dark but set the dedicated pc to run at the same resolution the pc engine runs at. Some tvs add lag if running at 720p or less.

Clearly the South Park was strong in this one. I think this is the saltiest video I ever made 🤣. Did bring out the trolls though and made the video blow up so I can thank them too.

I’m one of those older gamers I wish my reflexes are what they used to be. I could just pick up any new shmup and blow through it in a weekend. It just takes more time and practice now like an older bball player that has to adjust their game when they can’t dunk from the free throw line anymore 😅. But we certainly don’t blame the game for not being as good. That always trips me out. I honestly had way too much fun making that skit. I was watching that episode of South Park and had a Eureka moment 😆

Still, if the original input lag of the game is more than doubled (and it is), this is not a small matter. Quake 3(etc.) players consider framerate less than 120 to be unsuitable for competitive gaming.

JohnnyGrafx Thanks! And glad you found my channel as I didn’t know yours. Just subbed back and will check out some vids. Cybercore was the game that won me a turbo cd back in the day so lots of nostalgia value there. Glad you liked the vid I put a good bit of time into it. Look forward to checking out some of yours.

Emmett Turner You’re absolutely correct and I saw your comment on the FB group. I answered it much more completely there, but the short answer is I verified that my specific display has no additional delay at 720p. You make a great point and one we should be asking of other numbers we see.

Mark M 😂 oh just wait til I get to my South Park rip haha. Once I got the idea I couldn’t help myself as I love that episode.

@@ShmupJunkie 😂😂

Believe it or not the earth armor is the most overpowered and the one I prefer. It’s not very good if you are powered down so it’s more of an advanced armor, but at a decent power level it melts most everything very quickly. I actually have a harder time playing with anything else at this point haha

@@ShmupJunkie Im definitely gonna keep playing it, trying the harder difficulties. I'll check it out. I found the water armors ability to take out ships coming in behind you as so useful.

For this early video I only had it on the fire button at the time. But at least all of the games were pretty consistent, Lords was about the same delay as all the others. In general even on original hardware, Lords runs about a frame slower than basic hucard games and some other CD games, and it was the same on the mini emulating it. I always respect anyone who prefers to not play on an inexpensive emulator like a mini because they want better performance, or a Pi or whatever. I can feel the extra delay too playing on any of them, and given the option use some other method. Even Bonk doesn't have as much delay as people like to say, as testing it on original hardware his attacks and jumps come out just as fast as other games. It's the wind up (he pulls his head back first) before the attack that makes it feel like it takes a bit longer, but the animation starts in 2 frames or less on the real system. The mini is for casual play, just to enjoy the games again or experience them for the first time, and if people really like them and want to get serious, there's a million better ways, like emulation with run ahead that you mentioned. No serious player or scorer is going to use a mini console for anything but some fun. But that's what it's meant for and it's very nice like you mentioned for that purpose. It's all the silly folks trying to judge a hyundai like a ferrari, expecting too much out of a processor that likely cost less than $30. And like my video showed, the delay is there, several frames isn't trivial, but consistent across all the games. I wonder if proper integer scaling was just too much overhead considering the delay it already had without it. I'm actually more curious why the audio delay has to be there, as that seems more emulation driven than system performance, but we never got an answer on it from any of the mini console devs.

@@ShmupJunkie for sure, agreed across the board for the most part - i will say i'm glad the Pi emulation scene is slowly being shifted over to something like the FPGA-based MiSTer which is just so much better. excited for the day when features like runahead end up in every emulator and dedicated emulation boxes - more casual players will finally stop saying old games feel "sticky" because of compounded input issues. regarding audio emulation, it's likely a case of buffering. you need to buffer audio a bit otherwise it can stutter, crackle, and pop, you can't do audio "in real time" per se like you would on a dedicated sound chip that just pukes out waveforms (and even then, "real time" is a misnomer, though it may as well be to us). slower processors need a larger buffer. emulating audio is actually *really* intense, especially doing it even remotely accurately - sometimes more intense than everything else combined, especially if you emulate the audio amp! - so giving it a big buffer since it is, to our eyes/ears, lower priority, makes sense. it's just one of the concessions that has to be made, unfortunately. while it might initially make sense to emulate everything at once, it has to be remembered that the chips in these minis can only process serially, so it can't do one thing and then the other at the same time, or even get fast enough to approximate it. instead, you kind of jump back and forth between processes one at a time, imagine it like jumping between a bunch of assembly lines where one gets most of your attention and constantly has packages being sent out, while another one gets larger packages less frequently and later than the rest. i hope that analogy makes sense! this is why FPGAs are so exciting for retro games, since you can do parallel processing and split up the chip to do many things at the same time - input, display, audio, etc. and they're only getting cheaper! here's hoping we see them implemented in the next round of minis, if that ever happens. and re: scaling - they're already doing nearest neighbor to the current display size, and integer is just a form of nearest neighbor that happens to land on, well, an integer. doesn't cost any more or less, it just seems like a poor oversight. the real solution is to integer scale to either one below or one above the full resolution, then bilinear (or better) to the 4:3 size. interestingly, project lunar gives us these options, so clearly the processor is capable! it just kinda feels like m2 was under serious crunch being a small company and being given so many "quick, these are trending, we need more!" products to get to market. they deserve so much better.

jamiewalton666 soooon 😁 you can finally blame dying in LoT on the lag too 😆 jk. I’m excited for you to get yours.

@@ShmupJunkie 😀😀😀

I’d like to see that too but given how no other mini has had more runs it’s not too likely. When it came out I created this channel and made these early videos to try and spread the word as much as possible. To at least show as many as possible what it has to offer. My channel was small and reach was limited but I did manage to reach so many. But at $200 you can have an analogue duo once it releases (if you can snag one very quickly as they sell out in minutes), so yeah not for 300 plus. That’ll practically get you a mister at that price.

I think anyone normally would if it weren’t so expensive especially with the Duo and CD games. I use flash carts a ton too. The best thing to happen recently was the awesome Mister core so I can use a CRT and get flawless performance. It’s just not nearly plug and play. To me the mini is like an entry point or gateway for new people to try out the games and want to see more. I know quite a few that finally played games on it and enjoyed so many they got into more through other means. So it’s really good for that. I’m glad you enjoyed the vid it was one of my earliest ones. Compared to the super involved ones I make now for histories etc it seems quaint and didn’t take nearly as long at the time. But it’s still an old favorite I had fun with that stupid formula lol

@@ShmupJunkie Yes, i totally agree on the emulation vs OG hardware. I actually got into the PC Engine because i was watching a classics video and noticed how vibrantly the colors popped(I think the game was Fantasy Star Soldier). Tried it out on an emulator and just like you said with the others, took the dive into real hardware from there. The prices *are* super high for a PCE+CD, but with a little repair wizardry(replacing caps or the notorious yellowed gear), can be had for a reasonable number.

That's a great question with a very good answer. I did a whole comparison video on it right here! Lords is special to me so it was the very first comparison I ever did. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/l7aAqpqqxs7Qko0.html

@@ShmupJunkie ok, i missed that one!!!

I always have a harder time playing shmups on the portable too, in general I can only do so well. But you're right on, people are out of practice with old games they used to play. I can't just pick up many old shooters I used to finish and instantly smoke them. Without a doubt there's extra delay on the mini, but it's not so bad you can't even enjoy the game unless you're trying to play on some super hard mode. It normally just has an acclimation period and you get used to how it responds. Lords isn't a particularly hard game in general once you figure it out, I would say finishing Gunhed toward the end can be more challenging and less forgiving.

EZ Peezy Thank you man I appreciate the support and that you’re enjoying these. I hope if anyone guilty of some of the things I mentioned ever does see this that they can self reflect and do better instead of just being upset at getting called out on something.

I was going to lag test the new mini if I got a chance yeah, but I wasn't planning on doing a full video for it. My schedule is too backed up and by the time I got to it, nobody will watch it'll be old news. But I'm curious myself and would like to see how it runs. As I actually heard it uses a faster processor than the previous so it may perform even better. I do know RetroRGB did some in depth lag testing on it and their stuff is legit and accurate. You don't have to agree with their opinion as they are sticklers and find anything above a very minimal amount unacceptable. But that's just interpretation. Their actual numbers and test methods are reliable. Anything at 6-7 frames or less on a $99 mini is what I normally see.

@@ShmupJunkie Nice. Yeah, a quick 5-10 min vid would be fine anyway, just be interesting to get your findings on it seeing as you test these things thoroughly. This vid gave me a good laugh to with the awesome piss-taking via formulas, so part of me wants to see something similar to that again lol.

Retro Tuna Yes good point. Lots of people don’t realize all games have certain frames of lag built into them even if their display is a crt. The emulator adds more lag which some people don’t like and I respect their opinion. But if they can’t even manage to play a game it says more about their inability to adjust than the game itself. Just saw your channel and subbed. 👍🏻 Will check out that PCE stream later on my long drive 😊

@@ShmupJunkie thanks mate for the sub i subscribed to yours, love the pc engine done loads of vids on it,

@@ShmupJunkie were you the guy running the caravan compo's a few months ago on Instagram if so they were fun think i came 5th on one of them.

Retro Tuna I figured by your avatar you were a fan 😆

Retro Tuna I think that was my bud Retroheed he’s a great dude. He ran them for final soldier and super. I took over for soldier blade after. Yeah super fun. FYI retroheed is doing a really fun little contest right now for omega blast on the mega drive. Free rom and it’s really fun. He is keeping track of the scores for the week.

Jason Steighner Really glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the positive feedback. No doubt the lag can be felt myself included. A decent tv is important. There is a point where it becomes too much and that’s a matter of skill and opinion I’m sure. I and many others I know have no real trouble playing it so I did have to wonder why some other folks singled it out. To that point, Soldier Blade caravan and many of the shooters on this mini are quite a bit faster playing than Lords. Approx. same lag just the ship moves faster. Nobody seems to take issue with them. So I almost wonder if the slower speed of your character in Lords vs something like Blade is a factor in how people may perceive it. You have to be deliberate in Lords and think a step ahead when playing.

Jason Steighner Also you just became my 200th Subscriber! 😃 🎉 lol

Shmup Junkie Interesting. I actually haven‘t played lords of thunder but am really curious now - not willing to shell out for the TG mini after amassing enough minis though lol. My most recent endeavors have been Darius and Thunderforce 3 on the genesis mini. Thunderforce actually gives you the option to adjust your ship‘s speed - I find the fastest option to be the most uncontrollable on a laggy TV. You‘re absolutely right about the TV. I have been cursing my LG 47LK520 which has 3-4 frames of lag compared to my TN panel laptop even in gaming mode. But, once I plugged the genesis mini into an office grade 60 hz TN monitor (slightly lower lag than my tn laptop) it was a great improvement in responsiveness for both of those SHMUPs. Sonic 2 on the genesis mini is still sadly worse than any other options I have tried, including even retroarch on the ps classic and just recently tested on Mister (amazingly low lag just by feel).

Shmup Junkie Awesome.Keep it up!

Oh yeah, only a PCB or rare early gen games were that low in total. Not something you see at all anymore.

By nature, the mini consoles all have more lag than original hardware. The minis are all in the 5-7 frame range depending on the games, so you can't change that part. But the TV itself adds the rest. Some TVs have more than others. Each one is different but it sounds like you have game mode covered. The older flat screens especially had quite a bit versus many newer models, adding 2-3 frames of their own. But the only settings you can change is on the TV itself, the mini is fixed. Wish I could help more but I'd need to know the exact TV as they are all different.

-SG6000- You’re right on about unrealistic expectations. There are things I’d have liked to see such as proper interpolation and faster response, but I’m not the programmer to know if that was M2’s deficiency or the hardware. But I’m very interested to test the snes classic against the MD and this one to see what I get for results. I’ve been thinking about doing just that.

@@ShmupJunkie I understand that when the MD Mini's kernal was disassembled it was discovered that the CPU had been significantly underclocked - likely to mitigate any potential heating issues due to some motherboards using lower quality components than others (explaining why not all MD Mini consoles can be 'overclocked' safely). I don't own one to be able to verify this but it does suggest that the product was compromised on a basic level for simple economic reasons. Having said that though, these products aren't really aimed at real hardware enthusiasts, people who own OSSCs and lag testing equipment etc.

-SG6000- that’s good info I hadn’t read into forums enough on the Sega mini so hadn’t heard of that. Not surprising of course. I do use my OSSC a lot with real hardware and it’s gorgeous, but sometimes the convenience of these minis are nice. Maybe I’m just not as picky as many since the games are my priority and I seem to enjoy them fine on the mini too. And I have realistic expectations like you said. I can tell the difference, and I don’t expect $200 performance out of a budget product, but they’re still fun given you have a decent display that’s not piling on even more delay. So I’m happy to champion these as it’s been a great way for new folks to get their feet wet with the library. I know quite a few that are now looking into the hardware after really liking the games on the mini... which they’d never played until this point.

I’m sure it’s because you know the game so well. I don’t notice it either. That’s why I was surprised by what I got and had to retest multiple times. But once I got it on both original hardware and the mini I knew it had to be legit. I didn’t know you posted a playthrough I’m going to check it out later! I haven’t beaten SB on a single life yet there’s a couple spots that get me. Always fun to see how someone else does it.

exmosquito also totally didn’t know about your channel. Lots of great shooter plays I’m subbed!

Shmup Junkie heh yeah I like my PCE shooters :) I agree with your video that most people say the lag on Lords of Thunder is bad because they’re not thinking what they’re doing half the time and just want instant results. As you know shooters are pretty punishing and unless you actually put your mind to it and get creative and think what you’re doing you’re gonna die a lot. You put in it a funnier way obviously :)

Vanessaira Thanks I appreciate it and am glad you enjoyed it. I think the hardest part with these test is being able to properly wire these controllers with an led. Eyeballing it just doesn’t cut it so you need that visual indicator. And not many will be able to solder the board to do it. This little video on my tiny channel has certainly gotten some traction (and likely ruffled a few feathers lol).

Yes Lag on your musical playback device doesnt matter but when its a videogame that shit needs to be tight

No you’re totally correct. Original hardware is clearly more responsive and the crt adds no input delay unlike an hdmi display. I can absolutely feel the difference too and prefer playing that way too. This testing was more about showing the delay on this mini was pretty much identical to all other minis and that all the games were nearly identical in their response. And yes it’s very possible to adjust to it and still enjoy the games and play them well. So it was more about debunking a lot of the nonsense info going around back when I made the video. But I wouldn’t begrudge you or anyone for preferring to play on a crt with original hardware. Heck I certainly do too. I just try to see the $99 minis for what they are and not have unrealistic expectations. A lot of fun can be had on them but they’re certainly no replacement for real hardware or something like a MiSTer. I’m with you there.

djf7 Thanks man! It is a lot of work I won’t lie. But it’s been great seeing so many people enjoy the vids. Lemme show ya somethin! 😂 man I loved that show

Shmup Junkie lol yeah dude...every Sunday night at 9pm on fox 5 New York where I’m from!

Damn really? Pulstar is a beast of a game, I think LoT is a weakling by comparison. But it's different playstyle for everyone I guess. I think I only finished Pulstar one time legit. You die late in that game it's all over.

@@ShmupJunkie Well when I say I get further, it's not that far, not finished it, so well done you. I think it's the controls, I just got the coregrafx mini (UK) recently, not used to the controller yet. I play pulstar emulated on a joy-pad, which is a bit easier to get used to initially.

David Decker Have you checked your TV to make sure your Game mode is turned ON? The mini does add some lag but a half second is way too much. It sounds like something is wrong.

@@ShmupJunkie By game mode do you mean 120hz or sports mode? No I keep my TV at 60hz for movies. I will give that a try though. FYI I don't have any modern gaming systems. The most current system I have in the house is a Wii that my wife bought. All my systems are PS1, Saturn, Genesis, Sega CD, Turbo Duo and so on.

David Decker no it’s a different setting. The refresh rate is for sports mode like you said so you don’t get that ugly soap opera effect. I keep it off too. Game mode (or whatever your tv manufacturer likes to call it) turns off all the extra video processing to enhance the image. It usually adds its own 2-3 frames of delay vs having it off. Every brand calls it something else. If you reply with the make and model of your TV I can likely tell you where in the menu it is or what they call it. Maybe you already have it enabled but it’s worth checking as you want it in that mode for all gaming retro or modern.

@@ShmupJunkie I will take a look and let you now how it goes. I also heard the unit has already been hacked so people can add additional ROMs to it. Personally not having the legendary Axes, Keith Courage, Devils Crush, Dungeon Explorer 2, Cosmic Fantasy 2 on there was a big drop.

Freddy R you are completely correct. Extra lag makes it harder to adjust to a game. So if you are very good at some you will adjust better than others. You take responsibility for that adjustment and don’t blame the game for it. It’s an inexpensive emulator under $100 that performs better than a pi and is convenient. Correct sir

You should get a MiSTer - that gives you that Mega SG feeling for much more systems, including PCE (CD). Mini systems suck.

Morten Riis Svendsen I wouldn’t disagree with you at all here. I’m the first to admit having played these games since I was young that I can feel the lag using an emulator. And I can see why some would just complain and not want to play that way. While others like myself will just enjoy it for what it is and be able to adjust and still play the game effectively. You have other reviews claiming some games play just fine while others do not (LoT) when the numbers don’t bear out that result. It says more about their gameplay than the game itself. But you are correct 7-9 total frames is a lot anywhere. And the other mini consoles are not significantly any different (I actually tested my Genesis mini and was going to post that but for brevity edited it out) and it’s in the same 7-8 ballpark. But once other reviews start singling out this mini or certain games as unplayable while others are fine , blaming that on extra lag... I wanted to show that the numbers proved otherwise. Once you call something unplayable vs other games that’s an assertion that should be verified. I honestly expected it to have worse numbers based on all the claims so I was surprised to find otherwise. Again I very much appreciate your thoughtful comment and actually agree that several frames of total lag can effect the experience for some. And it should always be noted which I clearly do. But in the context of mini consoles any I’ve played and tested seem to perform about the same. To single out any one or particular games comes across as sour grapes. And like you rightfully said those sour grapes can spread like wildfire online. Hey did you hear they said game x was unplayable the lag must be terrible. I think I’ll pass. Can’t say how many times I’ve seen that comment directed at this mini. 😢

Without a doubt, few things besides an FPGA like a MiSTer compare to the real thing. I can absolutely feel the difference when playing on my CRT as well. I was mostly pointing out that the lag on Lords was near identical to all the other games on the mini, so it being picked on didn't make sense. They all ran about the same. It's a good entry point for new players and still possible to play and enjoy, see if the games are something they'd like to explore further, but yeah no mini console will compare to the real deal. At least not yet. The real deal breaker is a slow display, as with the 5 or so frames the mini is adding, if you also have a display adding it's own 2-3+ that's going to kill it. It's almost a given these days with the inexpensive emulators that you better have a decent monitor with a frame or less of delay. Otherwise that 6-7 frames becomes 9-10 and at some point it's just too much. I hear you on that.

Tough but so cool it's easy to replay and try to do better. Some stages are really hard to start on others are easier. I always recommend start on Desert or Water stages they are easier to get through without power ups, which you can buy after you finish a stage with more money.

So they too can learn the value of the 'yaw' to supplement any fake equation haha. You can tell I made this after watching that episode of south park.

Dan Kiley Thanks! This video got a few unhappy trolls commenting which I expected, but the overall response was so positive I was pretty blown away.

I sometimes find myself not playing as well when I’m so engrossed in the music I lose focus 😅. Playing it without the sound cranked just isn’t right though.

Really Spriggan? So bizarre. I didn't think to test it but I played all the way through it without really noticing anything unusual. Just for the heck of it, next time I'm on the mini I can use my modded controller and see how it is compared to the others. Really cool game too I like Spriggan quite a bit.

Supa Nintendope Thanks. Yeah not a fan of the “I didn’t test it myself but this guy said” type of stuff.

Shmup Junkie Yeah I completely agree. Can’t just take somebody’s word for it because they assume that person is credible enough to present facts and not anecdotal evidence.

Let me know how you enjoy it. It’s got so many great shmups on there if you like the genre, it’s hard to go wrong. Long as it’s on a decent tv in game mode I’ve loved it.

@@ShmupJunkie does it do 480p 4x3 output i got a hdmi to vga adapter so gonna try on a sgi vga crt monitor if not projector it

@@brainbeatuk all mini consoles only output 720p they don’t give you options to change resolution. It does have 4x3 mode it will just put bars or background on the rest of the image. It’s still outputting 720p but the game will be in a 4x3 box. I’d be careful with hdmi to vga adapters a lot of them can add lots of extra delay unless it’s a high end one. You’ll have to experiment. But the output will always be 720p.

@@ShmupJunkie ah ill just put on projector then, them little adapters are pretty much just passthrough devices one I got anyway no audio option ones are OK I think

Oh man an oldie but a goodie. This vid brought out the trolls and it was worth it. I try to make my new vids less salty now but I admit I had fun with this 😅.

Glen Galloway I like it for convenience or to bring over to another home for fun vs dragging any og console around. It’s been useful for that... well not this year 😐

Yeah you can work in a shop with 1000s of customers but you cant take a pc engine to a friends. absolute baloney

First off, thank you for the genuine and thoughtful comment. I have no issue at all with some negative feedback when it's earnest like yours. I have to be honest, this video is now easily taken out of context as it was a product of it's time and I've considered making it private, and have only left it up because I felt the info and results were important to showcase. As not a single other video has done it to this day. It was the third video I ever I made I believe, back when I just started my channel for fun and to do some PCE Mini reviews with no expectations. So I was just having dumb fun with it all and spreading my passion for it, throwing anything at the wall and seeing what sticks. I actually love MLiG and those guys, having watched them mostly for their tech content for many years. And we are both subscribed to each others channels, with them watching some of mine as well. For some context, this video was actually aimed at several channels and not intended to single them out at all, as they were just one of many guilty of singling out Lords as a problem game on the console. I actually WISH these mini consoles could get 3.5-4 frames of delay as that would be amazing, but they are 6-7 AT BEST on a very good day. All of them. I've yet to test one that isn't. Like you said, their processor is cheap. And I loved what M2 did with it despite the limitations. These are inexpensive $99 entry level toys meant to enjoy the games on a surface level, possibly relive old memories for those who don't have other ways to do so, and potentially be a gateway to exploring more of the library. Definitely not for serious scoring. But just good enough to still play the games effectively and enjoy them. Completely casual. So when I made these videos, it was to the backdrop of a large uproar on the Internet of how the PCE Mini had terrible lag issues and wasn't worth picking up. Which after playing mine for as week, I quickly realized was complete nonsense. I wasn't on youtube yet, but knew A LOT of folks in the community and my DMs were absolutely flooded with messages. All asking me if the negative info out there was true as they were really looking forward to the release and disappointed by what they were seeing. When I finally got my hands on mine and spent a week playing it, I realized what was out there was inaccurate and mostly bandwagon trolling that's so common. And it was pretty upsetting as I felt this mini was a phenomenal way to expose new players to this obscure library of games. And no matter how much I looked, I could barely find the rare video focusing on what I thought were the best aspects of the console. Instead they mostly parroted the same info they heard elsewhere without actual tests. So I set out to make these videos and give my take on the Mini, and try to offset the flood of negative content out there. MLiG was actually quite gracious aside from their LoT comment and I fault them for nothing aside from being overly critical of a $99 cheap piece of hardware. Unfortunately most took these handful of large youtube videos to heart and created an atmosphere of negativity around the console. I made it my goal to offset it somehow and the rest is history I suppose. As the videos somehow did really well despite me being brand new and had a positive effect which was obvious by the comments. And it was that positive flood of comments and response that actually forced my hand to keep making videos. I was able to convince a large following to disregard the negativity around it and give the mini a shot, which they did. What followed was an even larger flood of DMs and comments thanking me up and down for changing their mind about the PCE Mini, as they absolutely loved it after getting it from watching my video reviews. It was a big part of what kept me going and helped me decide to expand my content. So this video was purposefully salty and I absolutely see how today it comes across that way. It was meant to elicit a response and counteract the mountain of negative content at the time with actual tests and numbers. And all it showed was that this mini performed the same as every one that came before... and that all the games performed near equally across the board including LoT. At a lag level that while not great, didn't make any of the games impossible to play. I realize now some of the jokes come across as a bit crass and low brow, but that was all part of the learning process for me. I doubt I would make a video like this now and that's all part of the learning and growing process doing youtube. But looking back at the comments, it not only brought the trolls to the yard where I could shut them down, but also changed a lot of people's minds on giving the mini a chance. I've always been a proponent on not blaming lack of skill or practice on input delay and still hold to that line of thinking, somewhat of a counterpoint to my good friend Mark at the Electric Underground. I just go about it a bit more eloquently now instead of homaging South Park lol. But I've left this up for it's nostalgic/historic value to a lot of my original subs. It's a big part of what got my channel going back then, warts and all and blew up for what was literally my third ever video. And it was all done with tongue firmly in cheek. So I hope you don't take it too much to heart. I honestly thought the riff on the South Park formula was pretty funny, if not overly silly and dumb.

@@ShmupJunkie Firstly, thanks in turn for the thoughtful comments. Sorry if I caused any stress at all; I almost deleted my comment right after submitting it. I can tell you’re a good guy and genuine person, so no sweat there. Also I had no idea about the South Park skit, so that’s definitely mitigating :) And I also understand a little about content creation, having done it briefly on a different platform. Everyone expects perfection and will gripe about even the smallest perceived nit. It’s super stressful of course. I still have content up that has minor errors for example that I really wish I could fix, but for dumb reasons I’m not able to correct or take them down. And in my case my first piece of content did huge numbers, but I hated it because I got a bunch of stuff wrong and did several follow-up pieces to correct for those mistakes. We’re all guilty of nit picking or getting aggravated about inaccuracies both ways regardless. We’re all human. Plus the internet is the worst place for nuance and multifaceted discussions, nonetheless KZfaq. I’m probably very quick to defend Coury particularly because I know he takes criticism super hard. Agree he was a little careless with the LoT comment, but he does a ton of great work in general which is super hard to come by on these topics. Plus MLiG is always quick to stress that “you should play the way _you_ want to play,” and that emulation is a wonderful solution as a whole. I do very much appreciate the input lag numbers you and The Electric Underground put out. It’s tough to find any technical data anywhere among the sea of garbage on the internet, and even small amounts of data can really help consumers. (Please do keep covering ports of non-shmup games like arcade collections as well!) I’m still watching your other videos for the record, and these TG16 videos have inspired me to actually play my TurboGrafx Mini more. You definitely are the best shmup channel, and I’ve learned a lot from your videos. I know John Linneman is a big fan of yours as well, which is how I found this channel. Keep doing what you do 👊

charvelgtrs If the TV allowed me to play a set of games I couldn’t otherwise afford to play any other way, absolutely I would. I think the misunderstanding is that I’m dismissing my lag results. I never dismissed the lag I measured saying it was insignificant. I presented it straight up. Never said it was equivalent to a more expensive emulator or other hardware. A few frames is simply what I expect from a budget emulation box. Just like I wouldn’t expect a budget TV to perform like an expensive one, nor would I lambast it for not doing so. Because not everyone can afford a higher end TV. I’d show the numbers straight up and say hey, you can still play games on this TV and if anyone is telling you otherwise, it’s because they’re just not very good at the game. It’s totally playable. Sure this cheaper TV has 2 more frames of delay than the pricier one, but it’s what I’d expect at the price and I can still enjoy games on it. If you’ve seen any of my other vids on this mini that’s pretty much what I say. So to answer your question, yes if that tv was unique somehow and fit something I could use in one of my rooms, I’d buy it. Would I be replacing my OLED with one? No. But I’d gladly recommend it to anyone that’s on a budget and tell them it’s a nice set that I also tried and can enjoy playing on. And if someone crapped all over it saying how games on it are unplayable, I would tell them to stop blaming the tv for sucking at the game. Pretty much what I did here. Sorry for the longish reply but I hope that shows my perspective on this. Your question was sincere and respectful so it deserved a proper answer.

Jogos de Navinha Thank you friend. Appreciate the support big time! I’m glad you are enjoying them!

Miguel Rafael Once I had the idea to do a spoof of the South Park formula I knew I had to do it 😂

King Lizzard's Game Lounge Road to 1K I like the sound of that haha. Thx man glad you enjoyed it. Some people just want to nitpick things to death instead of tempering their criticism with a realistic perspective. I’m just getting going on some fun ideas for the next vid and it may include popping a few more pimples while I’m at it 😆. You’ll get your Splatterhouse dude only a matter of time. I’m looking forward to you getting the Everdrive so you can properly fire it up.

@@ShmupJunkie Awesome. looking forward to it mate!

Very much so. Playing any games especially the older ones with the extra delay from an hdtv usually ruins it. Too bad some TVs don't have very good game modes but most have really improved these last years. I actually talk about it a good bit in my other HDMI input lag video I did.

playback speed 0.25x 😎

I'm just getting slower in my old age haha

Sorry, I do my testing with an actual modified controller and an LED, so I can measure the exact input delay versus going by what it "feels" like. There is no problem with my TV and I play my mini consoles just fine. This mini is no different than all the others and I enjoy it quite a bit.

Jan-Niklas Hoffmann That’s a really good idea actually. I’m sure it has to vary game by game since it also depends on that but it would be interesting to compare some. Are there specific games you’ve seen most complaints on? I must have been out of the loop on it as I haven’t run into the videos complaining about it.

@@ShmupJunkie -some of the games that got loads of complaints are the Psikyo collection games (digital/physical collections and individual releases), the Hamster Neo Geo and arcade ports, Rival Megagun and Sisters Royal. ESP.Ra.de, Darius Collection, Thunderforce ports and Danmaku 3 are supposed to be relatively snappy. Some people also say the Switch has a high input lag itself, reacting more laggy when docked. Don't really know what to believe and it bothers me and makes me sad because I have loads of shmups on the Switch...I was playing Dragon Blaze and it didn't feel unplayable at all, but then again I don't really have anything to compare it to. (Haven't played the arcade version).

@@ShmupJunkie here is an example of what I mean...check out the Switch reviews of a) Gunbird b)Psikyo shooting stars Alpha/Bravo, both on 'Nintendolife'. The first review Gunbird doesn't even mention lag and the game gets a solid 8/10. Same site reviews the collections and they score 5/10 because of lag and barebones port. What to believe? Then the Darius Collection gets praised for having 4 frames of lag, but the Hamster ports are trashed for having 5. Seems crazy... As if I could tell 1 frame of lag difference lol my brain has too much input lag already to even process that :-p

Jan-Niklas Hoffmann those are a good place to start thanks 🙏. I’d need to modify a switch controller before I could do it. And you need to measure the original game on its hardware too. Each game has its own delay. So if you really want to know how much just the switch is adding there are multiple factors to test and subtract. Just like in this video I had to test games on original hardware too for comparison. It’s definitely worth doing since it seems to be a big deal. I would just have to start with a collection or something where the original games had a good port elsewhere. Some of the psikyo games seems a good place to start.

Jan-Niklas Hoffmann I don’t expect much out of these big reviews sites honestly. At least for consistency. But I’ll definitely check them out when I’m doing a specific game to see if the claim jives with the results.

haha, well that part doesn't matter. You aren't going online telling everyone the game is unplayable because you can't complete it, so your factor is always Zero. That formula only applies to people having a good or not so good reason to blame the game for their own lack of skill.

MOXIE channel I agree it’s a banger of a console. And it’s very hard to own and buy games for it. Why I am such a big fan of this mini. Good way for lots of people to try games that are hard to get otherwise.

DAMAGE INC. oh man I still watch scenes from it now and again it’s classic 😂. I had the idea and just had to run with it. Yeah now it’s finally on US Amazon even more folks will be looking to reviews. Most wont likely find mine but it’s slowly getting out there.

You did your part of putting out the word on the awesomeness of the Turbo mini! The views will come over time & more people will discover what they've been missing... 😮 I'm stoked to get mine in a couple weeks now!

QuetzalToonart005 The Wii VC games were some really good ports. Soldier Blade plays great on it. If you have one with the wires GameCube ports even better. I’m a fan of the VC games there were some great ports

@@ShmupJunkie Because of the Wii VC and that there was a Bravoman animated short series that came out a few years ago it drove me into buying a trubografx of my own with a pc engine card reader to play games on both systems. sadly i have to deal with using an rf adaptor to play the games its still fun

Patti Boo 🤷‍♂️ 😂 I guess I owe you another wig. I really thought it was my screech wig.

That's a great analogy! Tekken 3 and Tag are a couple of my favorite fighting games and I own them, so I never even tried it on the classic. I still have the rhythm for it even if I don't play it as often. I would be curious to try it. Bad controllers give me more fits in a fighting game than lag or fps. Like a move I can pull off almost every time, but with a different Dpad, it just doesn't freakin work half the time. And I start thinking I've totally lost it. But then I go back to an original PS controller vs a knock off and it starts working almost every time. I'm glad I did grab a ps1 classic when I did given how nice of an emulation platform it has become too for the other games.

The 50 hz PAL versions of many of the games, $100 price tag, bland interface, & relatively weak game list were the PS mini's biggest offenses. Upgrading the system with AutoBleem, USB memory stick, OTG adaper, 8BitDo dongle, & any bluetooth controller make it my favorite mini console. I still want the TG-16 & CoreGrafx minis, though.

That just proves I’m good at the game. I know it like the back of my hand so I can beat it regardless. The mini also has save states. I did however do a lords of Thunder comparison video you can check out and used the mini for footage. I played the hardest stage on Super mode with suicide bullets and used that footage at the end. It’s a lot of fun. This video just showed that all the games run about the same delay. Lords isn’t unique or runs slower than any of the other games.

@@ShmupJunkie Don’t get me wrong, I actually subscribed because I am huge fan of the genre, and got almost all the minis so far, being the PC Engine one of my favorites. I support your claim, but asking just in case, as someone could point it out.

@@gokuskywalker2442 I never posted a full long play of it since I never really posted them here, but it would be easy enough to record my next time playing and put it up. Nobody has asked up to now it’s been a good several months, but it won’t hurt.

-=tAz=- lords is a bit unique for pc engine shooters your character actually moves a bit slower than normal compared to faster paced games like soldier blade and Gradius.

LightBlue2222 you’re correct in that every game has its own built in lag also. Some more than others it’s normal. Later in my video I measured that lag on original hardware and on a crt. So any emulator is adding its delay on top of the original game. Have you ever checked your lcd tv settings to make sure it’s in Game mode? That also helps a lot so your tv isn’t adding more delay than necessary. It’s not always called game mode every tv is different but there is a setting that can usually enable it.

@@ShmupJunkie Nice. I didn't know about game mode. Mine doesn't have it but I just read up that turning off unnecessary settings helps in the same way. So I'll have to give it a try with dynamic contrast n' such turned off. I didn't realize that could make a difference. Thanks

LightBlue2222 yeah. It’s very rare a tv doesn’t have a game mode of some kind. It’s not always called “game mode” but if it’s a major brand , you should be able to google how to get it going. It adds 3-4 frames of its own easily without the processing disabled for games. I hope you can find it on yours.

You probably noticed in my video that I provided the complete numbers as well including every component in the chain. Including my display.Without a doubt using a poor display with poor scaling would make it even worse. And you're correct that using a good PC for emulation is very different as it has a lot better performance so it would have less lag as well. 100ms of lag for a TV is massive I would imagine any game would be hard to play on that. If your lag goes away when using a VGA adapter into your display (that's pretty rare for a TV to still have vga), then it's the HDMI input board and processing that is creating all that lag, not the HDMI cable itself. That is the one item you are mistaken. A standard HDMI cable, or any cable in itself, provides no delay as it travels, for all intents and purposes, at the speed of an electrical charge. HDMI cables that have additional scaling/processing built in, like those cheap gaming cables are another story. But just a run of the mill cable adds nothing and I've yet to see a single technical article that shows otherwise. This is coming from someone that does Pro AV for a living. The HDMI transport at the source and TV, and the processing is a different story. But a regular cable itself has no lag. If your TV plays better over VGA, it's your VGA input that has faster/better processing than it's HDMI input so you are seeing much better performance. Which makes sense. But it's not the actual cable unless the cable is faulty. That's not including that your HDMI to VGA converter/scaler is also adding delay, but likely less than the poor HDMI processing on the TV. So you are seeing an improvement.

Thanks for the answer. HDMI DOES provide with input lag vs a CRT, precisely ONE frame of input lag, that is the nature of HDMI, you have to send the whole image at once. That's the minimum I can get my MiSTer FPGA running in my gaming monitor. That lag (tiny, but it still exists) is gone while playing on CRT. Same with USB, it also adds some lag, best case scenario, with 1000 hz polling and no lag controller, it's 1ms, usually 3-10 ms. The thing is, if you add up everything, you get lag, and that sometimes is enough to not avoid the bullet that was going for you. Of course, you have to play a lot the games in order to get good, but one thing doesn't cancel the other.

@@ShmupJunkie See, that's what I mean about people trusting myths collected on the internet rather than pure science, out of who knows where ppl just state popular generalties like 'HDMI has 1 frame of lag', 'most TVs lag anyway', 'flat panels frame drawing time is lag crts don't have', 'upscaling, or low specs, or my gamepad's religion, the ambient temperature, whatever...adds lag' etc, while even test reviews show them that's definitely wrong or far from being always true and there's science to demonstrate, with proper testing devices and software just in front of their eyes telling them each case individually. It's the problem with the internet; people produce pharaonic amounts of sensational BS which is so easy for them to repeat, but extremely tedious for anyone to refute to prove it's indeed BS, that's called the bullshit asymmetry principle or 'Brandolini's Law, and usually makes the poor individual who tries hard to defend the truth extremely unpopular. :D

vanguardcat I had to look up Brandolini thanks for that bit of humor. This whole thing reminds me of the old myth busters show. They seemed to do alright 😎. Now you’ve got me thinking about doing a myth busting episode on all these things haha. I only fear for the time expenditure in the comments section afterward. And it’s not like a lot of these things haven’t been addressed and tested before just maybe not in a video format. But I’ve got a ton hardware to do it being in AV, so maybe it’s something that would be fun to attempt as a series of episodes each focusing on a topic. And I could certainly have some fun with it. But ultimately I’d want to do it right with proper research so maybe it could prove useful over time. When it comes up in arguments online one could just link to a video 🤷‍♂️.

vanguardcat as an aside I’ve been following the RetroRGB channel for years now. I appreciate a lot of his technical stuff. I’m not always on board with some of the elitism I see coming out of that community, as was obvious by the snobbery you see in many lag discussions and the discounting of solutions that don’t live up to their most stringent of standards. But I appreciate a lot of the detail that comes out of it, even if I don’t always agree with the interpretation of the data afterward.

Unfortunately youtube is all about people spreading various misinfo and speaking from places of self appointed authority. Social media and the times we live in, where the truth is determined by the biggest voice and the largest following. I try to balance them with some of my videos. My channel was very small when I made this so it only reached limited people, but I'm happy it's grown so much since and I'm finally able to reach so many more.

I would be willing to bet your display is adding a lot of that lag you are feeling on the mini which has been really common. I've had many others come to me later and say they tried it on a better performing TV and it made a big difference. I've had no problems playing through most of the games on the mini, but my display adds less than a frame in my setup. Of course nothing compares to the original I still love playing on my Duo as well. But the mini is nice for people who can't afford the real deal and don't want to mess with emulating on their computer. Don't expect a fix at any point, it's a limitation of the cheaper hardware. The Genesis mini is the same way. The mini consoles always add a few frames of delay it's just how they are.

@@ShmupJunkie yeah maybe I'll try my other TV to see if there is a difference. I Also have an 8 series samsung so I'll try it out after the Clippers game and after I watch my bengals play! Lol

@@ShmupJunkie also bonks revenge is bad i can't even jump on the spring flower! Unless i got the turbo switches up its so bad. The bonus stages are impossible

JAKESTEED I used to watch the Bengals when Palmer was at QB I followed him from when he left SC as I’m from CA. Just make sure the Game Mode on the TV is on and the auto motion plus is turned off. Those cause the most delay for games. It definitely helps if you didn’t do that already anyway.

Nightrider 9000 😁👊 Thx man appreciate the props and glad you enjoyed it.

It’s been a long time since I measured it, but I recall it was around 2-3 frames for lords of thunder. 1-2 frames for most other games.

The audio lag is nearly unnoticeable, at least to me, when playing shooters with everything going on. But you're right it's noticeable much more in platformers and other games like platformers where you can more clearly see sounds happen after actions. I'm not sure where the challenge comes in, but I doubt it's a matter of being lazy. Retroarch and PC emulators have the benefit of powerful processing on modern computers, while these mini systems have to be produced cheap on a budget, with a processor that likely costs less than $35. I remember it's an issue that the genesis mini had too. If I was interviewing them, that would definitely be a question I asked, as you know members of the team have an answer, but the question was never directly asked.

@@ShmupJunkie I have extensive experience modding the Genesis Mini and S/NES Classics and installing retroarch on them in place of the stock emulator slightly improves input lag and dramatically improves sound lag (to a point of being negligible). But I wholeheartedly agree with you that if you're good enough at these games, you can generally overcome input lag. Unless we're taking about something like Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! or other twitch-speed games.

What sucks unfortunately, is that you may not realize commentary like this comes across as very elitist and snobbish, whether you intended it or not. I'm a big fan of FPGAs and original hardware so I very much understand. If you've seen any of my other videos you'd see how much of it I own. And yet I don't call mini systems garbage (yes I read the comment before the edit) nor do I compare them to great emulators (like the MiSTer or Analogue consoles) that once you've put together, are easily twice the price and more. And that is before you add the fancy, expensive gaming monitor. The mini consoles are specifically for playing on a basic LCD in Game Mode, thus the HDMI only output. They are also primarily for people that A) Used to play them as a kid and want to relive some memories of those games easily on their modern display and B) Those who have never played the games before and would love to, but don't have the expensive setups or can't afford the real hardware. That is especially true in this case given how difficult and expensive much of these games are to play. So no, I would not make a big deal about those numbers from a $99 budget emulator. They are the same numbers I've seen from the other mini consoles. And yet the games are perfectly playable for anyone that is willing to give them more than a passing play for an overly quick review. Looking down on anyone that would buy or play one is equivalent to the Porsche guys mocking the Miata club when they show up at the track. But what happens next is telling. Some of the Miata guys are actually great drivers and that's why they are there. Not to show off their hardware, but to race (or play). And many lap the Porsche guys with their "inferior" cars (I used to road race so I've seen many track days). No amount of fancy hardware that feels better or makes you faster can compensate for lack of skill. And that was the point of my video. Not to say that 7-9 frames of lag is OK or not... As much as I love my own fancy hardware, it's just a tool. If you're skilled you will be outscoring others with their big guns and not complaining about games being unplayable. In my previous video I did a tutorial at the end on how to score over 600K in the Soldier Blade 2min mode and I did it on the mini... partly to show how very much playable it is, several frames of lag and all. I found it perfectly suitable. Please don't take this negatively as you may not have intended the comment to come across that way, but it's all too common with hardware elitism online, so I try to point it out when I see it. I was there once myself before I saw things from a different perspective.

Tobin Silverweed It’s perfectly fine to suck at a game. I suck at Bomberman and Tetris. But you’re not going out and blaming the lag (I hope 😆). You only get Suckitude points for blaming the game and crying about it online 😁

@@ShmupJunkie yeah I get your point and you're right. After 20 or so times of getting steamrolled on LOT, I'm happy to say that I'm starting to kick all kinds of ass. Just gotta turn up that soundtrack and have fun 🤘🔥

Fiction's Gamepad Thx. I just checked out your page and subbed. Saw you had a soldier blade run I can check out later. I did a 2min caravan run on my vid last week titled shooter crackpipe toward the end. It has one of my fav 2min modes.

@@ShmupJunkie soldier blade is so good. I think it takes top spot on vertical shooter list. You know what no one talks about is how perfect the PC engine/turbo16 pad is for shmups.

Fiction's Gamepad I’m a big fan of the pad it works great... until my thumb starts getting a blister from too much caravan practice lol. The mega drive pad was a bit gentler on the skin without the hard edges. I’ve torn up my thumb more than once overdoing it. But then I guess that’s what the butt paste is for 😆