Best response for morally corrupt demons evah.

I frikkin' cackled that was so funny

Considering you had superheroes that were, in war time, used for a form of propaganda, it's not entirely wrong, but after the whole fiasco with people seeing comics as something corrupting the youth decades ago, the idea has certainly moved more into criticizing such things as war (Superman Red Son comes to mind)

@@ToHoldNothing I think a big problem with that is even with how much that makes sense? The comic... isn't really written like that. Considering what's seen in almost the entirety of this story in particular, the criticism doesn't seem to be directed towards those particular heroes but rather the very concept of superheroes. Hell at this point in the 90s, I don't even think there were that many superheroes being used as war-time propaganda meaning the commentary is also kind of irrelevant.

@@the-aspiring-creator4249 The fact that they can be used as such is an issue, recognizing that these are characters that are subject to how a writer chooses to depict them is an issue Western comics have, unlike official manga (versus fanart, in which case, do what you want), since they have one author and it doesn't shift except as they determine, so the varied results don't occur

What about the time he went to Vegas

@@leviticusprime4904 What about it? Demons visit Las Vegas so often that it’s practically considered a business trip spot rather than a vacation destination.

@@CitizenKahne1992 oh so that is why, I saw a big monster with chains all over him, ripping a mans spine out of his back

“Do you see?”

@@williammorahan4907 “Oh God, I’m so bored! Somebody help me!”

Wait, Garth actually said that?

@@daelen.cclark yes. He thinks Captain America is Disrespectful and Borderline offensive.

@@aderose garth is a twat so it makes sense he'd think that.

Jack Kirby: now listen here you little punk…I may not know the IRA…but captain America was something I made, hell I’m a coast guard mind u!

Captain America: Hey, WW2 was a terrible experience. Not only should we make sure the things that led to fascism and the holocaust never happen again; but also, where possible, we shouldn't send our people to die in battle as much Garth Ennis, doing a pinhead impression: You say you do not glorify war, and yet you and your so-called 'heroes' try to stop aliens from committing genocide on our people? Curious...

the irony that Captain America comics were BELOVED by WWII soldiers and passed on from one avid reader to another so much they would fall apart from overt use days after.

Yeah. Which is hilarious because Captain America was created by a war veteran. Garth Ennis is a moron.

@@Theokal3 Indeed he is. Given that Garth Ennis states his view of reality influences his work, he honestly feels detached from reality.

@@VuotoPneumaNN Garth Ennis is a fascist? I mean don't get me wrong, I hate the guy with every fiber of my being, but calling him a fascist...

Captain America is like the mascot of the American soldiers who exists to glorify and speak for them to garner public support (the MCU took this literally in The First Avenger where he's advertising for war bonds before he actually hit the battlefield), like how Bibleman wants to tell everyone about his God and give glory to Him, not himself.

Oh no what if we all just stopped feeding the capitalist machine OHHHH that'd be the worrrrrssst

@@painvillegaming4119 okay 1. Did I say imitate the communism of another country? Did I even say communism? There are other political ideologies, even if communism (as befitting the needs of the people it serves) isn't inherently bad, & 2. Look, capitalism is gonna burn itself out soon anyway, the planet literally will not be able to sustain itself at the rate we humans are going. We need a sustainable solution or we will die with it.

@@painvillegaming4119 it's fine, but i genuinely think you should look into leftist ideologies. I say this not mockingly but as genuine advice, most leftist ideologies that focus on the needs of the people ought to also focus on region-specific sustainability. It's only when we focus on equity & equality & everyone right to live long & fulfilling lives that we can make the world a better place.

@@Miles_Phantasmagoria „ even if communism (as befitting the needs of the people it serves) isn't inherently bad” All atempts to put it into practice show that it is a bad idea. „ capitalism is gonna burn itself out soon anyway,” Hahahhahahaha! No. Dude, marxist have predicted this for over a century. They have alwais been wrong. „We need a sustainable solution or we will die with it.” And those sustainable solutions do not need nonsense like communism or socialism. All we need are high carbon taxes, high land value taxes, an elimination of coal, oil and gas subsidies, and introduction of subsidies for renewable energy, and a reduction of anti-nuclear regulations.

Aren't they actually like Extremely cautious because if they break a rib they wouldn't even realize it Tell their coughing Blood from a punctured lung

@@plantainsame2049 Yup! They have to be super careful about things like temperature, checking themselves regularly to make sure there aren't any wounds they missed, not knowing if they have a fever, etc, because they have no warning system. Which makes it frankly ridiculous that anyone with the condition would get into fights.

I can see this concept working. Baldar from God of War is a great villain. He can't feel anything, pain nor pleasure, and goes nuts from the lack of stimulus.

@@wdcain1 Yeah but that’s an explicitly magical condition unlike any on Earth that also makes him invulnerable to all harm. It’s not demonizing any real medical conditions unless there’s a group of numb immortals I don’t know about.

Shallow Deconstruction I call it. I Tried launching it as a Trope on TVTropes with The Boys as a primary example but I don't think I explained it very well.

@@Avenger85438 They already have the tropes Indecisive Deconstruction that serves the same purpose. I find if you can think of a trope something, someone has already beat you it. Shallow Parody is one that applies to a parody that is written by someone who knows next to nothing to say about the source material or has nothing of value to say. Both of those apply to The Boys.

IKR?! Like I’ve always hated these “dark for the sake of dark is realistic!” and “humans are inherently evil!” tracts. Even as a teenager. And these are the people who say that “the world is more complicated than that” lol. This edgy BS lacks nuance or any real depth.

@@jlev1028 I mean to my understanding the Last of Us at least makes sense about it because at least they’re trying to find a cure.

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. These comics misunderstand what Watchman was deconstructing. Watchman was a deconstruction of how super hero comics often depict vigilantly justice. In comic books our heroes are heroic vigilantes, who use their super human powers to look out and protect humanity. But at the same time superheroes only answer to themselves. They are not elected by the people, they are not accountable to any civilian oversight board, and they often circumvent constitutionally guaranteed rights. Watchmen takes this depiction of vigilante justice and shows us what that would look like with real fallible people. With psychopaths like Rorscharch and Veidt. What people took away from the comic was the dark psychopathic vigilantes like Rorscharch are cool and bad ass and that the point of watchmen was how awesome Fascists vigilantes based on the pseudo-philosophy of Ayn Rand and how we should totally emulate them. If you ever wonder why Alan Moore was of the opinion that Watchmen was a failure as literature it’s because people came away from the comic thinking Rorscharch was a heroic character and not a mentally unstable psychopath.

So what you say is: the comic book industry was finally free to play with fire. But it got burnt because they got too fire happy with it.which essentially proved that the ones who tried to stop the industry from "getting burn" were right to a degree.

@@ianr.navahuber2195 No... i said the comic book industry was free to play with fire, but use it to write "fire is not something to play with".

@@MJFERMEZLA you don't know what 'no' means.

Sadly, there are people who believe that drinking your own urine is a panacea.

Agreed. Therapy is not a bad thing or something to be ashamed of. I’m in therapy. It helps!

@@Valdagast Madonna once talked about it how she believed in it on Letterman

@@ArdisMeade Madonna believes in a lot of crazy stuff. She should go into business with Gwyneth Paltrow.

Have you seen phelous' ghostbusters joke book video? There were a fair amount of anger inducing puns there (in the book, that is).

Hell I have a friend who likes the MCU and The Boys TV show but he admits that is NOT more realistic than the MCU.

Ya I don’t hate the idea but even I’m extremely Choosy on which superhero deconstruction/realistic superhero material I like

I read the comics before seeing the show and realised my enjoyment of them was like watching a train wreck and wondering what awful thing would happen next. Having almost every character with powers be so horrible just loses its impact and also is unbelievable. Even with the power corrupts and superhero as celebrity angle there just isn't any reason so many superheroes would be so bad. The show is better on just about every level and part of it is even the bad characters are given more depth.

@@DarkKnightofAnime I personally love Squadron Supreme for not falling victim to any of that edgelord nonsense.

Honestly? Fuck "The Boys". It looks stupid and edgelordy and everything I hear or read about it just reinforces how stupid and edgelordy it looks to me.

That's actually what the show does a lot better over the comic: the superheroes, in general, aren't just evil doucebags for no reason except "supperheros r dum lol im so edgy!!1!", they're treated instead as a satirical stand-in for celebrity culture. The show also knows to NOT take itself that seriously regarding its premise and even admits that the main characters are just as self-centered as the people they fight, unlike the comic which played it so painfully straight and expected us to root for them unconditionally.

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/brR5gNRlvZ_Yfac.html kzfaq.info/get/bejne/i5tofdGnu-DcpHU.html

There's two types of people who criticize superhero comics. The first criticize how marvel and DC has monopolized an entire industry into their merchandising conglomerate and stifled it's growth. It's not the superhero genre itself that they are lamenting, the genre has proven without a doubt to be able to tell avast array of stories, it's the creative bankruptcy of the industry. The second person criticizes superheros because they are seen as childish and juvenile, not as epic cool badasses who kick ass and take names. It doesn't matter that a man dressed as a bat is just as ridiculous as Scarface mowing down a bunch of Cuban mafiosos on a mound of cocaine, Scarface is cooler and radder. Sadly, the vast majority of critics tend to be the latter. Garth Ennis is the latter, as is Warren Ellis and arguably Alan Moore. Their stock protagonist characters prove it no matter how much they object to this conclusion.

@@dugonman8360 Creative bankruptcy?

I believe that there are good people out there who if given the chance would help as many people as they can. there's a Tumblr post that perfectly illustrated why I think "super heros would really be evil" is a stupid thing to be realistic OP: why, in a game with no repercussions are you being a good guy Commenter: my power fantasy is being able to help everyone

To be fair, corporations are evil. But yeah everything else is right on the money.

Most British comic writers are just pissed off superheroes are what sells in the West when they believe they’re superior to superheroes and Eastern comics.

Odd, isn't it, how the British New Wave of comic authors really only became truly subversive, genre-bending and progressive when they were about examining the medium of comics, and not just making snide remarks about how "superheroes suck 'cuz shut up!" It's really just the intellectual equivalent to the kind of Liefeldian style of artwork that dominated the 90's: angry, loud and obnoxious, with nothing of substance to say.

@@travishimebaugh8381 There's an Anime called Tiger and Bunny that handles the idea of corporate sponsored Superheroes much better. While money and entertainment are a primary motivation for the backers who document their exploits in a tv show. The heroes themselves, imperfect as they are, are still decent, and want to genuinely help. Not only that, it's shown in it that many feared superpowered people before the tv show helped improve their public perception.

@@ycastro2003 The Outer Worlds game taught me that's not always the case. Their corruption and incompetence may have dire effects, which is why oversight is important but they are still serve a function and are at the end of the day, barring a few exceptions, made up of people, not monsters. It's better said here somewhere. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/TheOuterWorlds

So, macho bullshit.

@@Antonicane I could not have said that better.

So L Ron Hubbard minus the sociopathy

As a guy with mild depression, I can say that therapy is completely fine (if a bit expensive). I could see some superheroes (spider-man in particular), happily going to therapy if given the chance. It's just that crap comics like this one and heroes in crisis giving therapy and mental health issues a bad name.

@@redjirachi1 I think starting a horrible cult goes a little farther than that.

Not just him. The various "therapies" kind of show that the inability to feel pain has the superheroes on the path to becoming cenobites themselves.

Who you callin Pinhead comics?

No, I'M Dirty Dan!

One argument I've seen is that The Boys is less a satire and deconstruction of superheroes and more of corporate culture and celebrity worship. YMMV on how effective it is. The Boys themselves are a deconstruction of gritty action heroes.

Agreed. For instance, it strikes me as having grossly missed the point to develop a character as a "parody of Judge Dredd" because Judge Dredd is already a much better satire than this could ever hope to be. There's also nothing clever about the supposed 'deconstruction' of superhero media in these kind of stories that actually examines or criticizes the concept. It's always just "old man yells at cloud". Oddly enough, it's always stories like Kingdom Come or What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way that respond to these stories in a much more provocative and thoughtful way. The mentality of these kind of stories just reeks of callow cynicism and pretension.

Well said~!

@@cui8789 the only thing I know, is that the series at least tries to be nunaced while the comic book is just a testament of "Nah, your heroes are dumb, The Boys are what heroes should be supposed to be"

@@ianr.navahuber2195 Except that's not at all what the comics are about. As @Cicada 5 put it it's about the deconstruction of corporations through the lens of superheroes. Most of the major heroes are sponsored and controlled by a major corporation. Spoilers ahead for comic and possibly series. In the end it is demonstrated that most of the heroes were actually created by the self same corporation to get a tighter control of the world at large. The boys aren't heroes, they are nobodies hurt by either the corporation or their heroes and after getting their hands on a serum to put them near physically on par with heroes. The main difference between the comic and the series is that in the series, as far as I watched at this point, they main characters don't have powers. Hughie is still the loveable character who is in over his head after his fiancee was splattered in a hero accident. Starlight is basically the one good heron who after being brought in to the Seven is abused, attacked and in all other ways harmed. The Boys is a rough read and I wouldn't recommend it to most people. But it isn't really a critique of superheroes as much as it is a critique of power and those who abuse it, where it's governments, corporations, or superheroes. By the end, big SPOILER WARNING HERE.... Even the boys are revealed as villains with Butcher having helped orchestrate the Homelander's mental breakdown and turn to villainy so he could justify killing him for revenge. Butcher is the ultimate villain in the end further demonstrating that even those we trust who have power may also be abusing it for their own ends. The Boys aren't supposed to be the heroes, the heroes are Hughie and those who stand for what's right in the face of wrongdoing regardless of who it is, who's backing it, or even if it was a former friend.

Either way, we win.

I actually like most deconstructions because I believe that superheroes wouldn't work irl. No matter how much good they would do, there would be people who are terrified by them. Most likely they would cause extremist groups to oppose them. H.P. Lovecraft said it best, “The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown”. Think about that. Supers keep many secrets.

@@funkyweapon1981 What about a world where that reaches a different conclusion: the supervillains become disgusted that the supposed heroes are doing what they were. One by one, the supervillains slowly take on the role the heroes once played; some out of respect for their legacy, some for their own goals, and some to keep their reputation as villains in check, becoming an anti-villain. A role reversal, if you will.

@@ZoanBlade90 Neo: Whoa. I wish I could hit that thumbs up a few more times!

I think Bad Superheroe deconstruction should be called "Shallow Deconstruction".

Not necessarily a bad idea Just executed very poorly here

And you know Freddy rips the maps with his glove at some point

And at some point they make a detour to beat the shit out of Ash Williams.

The problem is now if they're driving, I just imagine them all bobbing their heads to "What is love?" by Haddaway.

So: Pinhead is Edd, Freddy is Eddy, and Jason is Ed?

I'm waiting to see a buddy movie between Michael Myers and Jason Voorhees.

So a kids show understood this better than a comic for adults

Well said!

the irony comes from how people start being skeptic thinking that would never be possible, which reminds me of the tragedy of the main character of the Twilight Zone (1959) episode "Big Tall Wish", whose refusal in "magical things" becase, as he believed "that's not how things work", ended up costing him badly

@@ianr.navahuber2195 Just, weirdly enough, like that guy Rossiu in Gurren Lagann (although, it being Gurren Lagann, his problems were solved by being punched really hard in the face - a trait that he very much doesn't share with the protagonist of Big Tall Wish).

@@Pineappolis while i get the example really fits Rossiu from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, the series doens't serve as an example to me because, they never say how they will stop it, if they will do. just that they will do it because "They really want to". All whie the main lives of the main protagonist kinda end up depressingly because they shouldn't abuse the power of spiral energy otherwise it will be impossible to stop, when the series is all about doing the impossible. Sorry if i went on a tangent, i still dislike TTGL's enging of "Nia's existence has to end because it was impossible for her to survive without the Anti-Spiral..... even thought the premise of the series is doing the impossible...."

@@ianr.navahuber2195 That's fair and it's why I tend to watch my favourite episodes/moments from the anime rather than rewatching the whole thing; it has dizzying highs but it does end on a weirdly downer note. Literally only brought it up because your description brought to my mind so clearly the image of poor, baffled, exasperated Rossiu trying to apply real-world logic to a universe that has absolutely no time for any of that. Always found it a really striking idea to throw into a show as insane TTGL.

It’s not enough from them to hate in private. They must destroy the superhero and its concept in all its forms. Also their other stuff doesn’t sell.

Watchmen was arguably the superhero deconstruction to end all deconstructions, and at least one piece of official material depicts Dr. Manhattan (who iirc is the guy that ends up killing the protagonists and destroying that world) as the _hero_ of Watchmen.

The virgin Marshal Law vs the chad Watchmen

@@VuotoPneumaNN Aloha, if I'm understanding you right then martial law as a comic is a deconstruction of themes such as celebrity culture, the military industrial complex, and propaganda used to justify war crimes? If I'm understanding that right do you think this comic is a good representation of the overall series? Cuz just based on these issues it doesn't make me want to pick it up and try to see what you see init, if you have recommendations then I'm all ears.

@@VuotoPneumaNN okay so after reading all six issues of the ministries I can say that the hellraiser crossover was not a good introduction to the series at all. When compared with it martial law is not nearly as loathsome as he is here, and while the art can be hit or miss (issue five sticks out as pretty bad) the art overall was my favorite part of the series, but that isn't to say I liked it particularly much. As a satire of superheroes I think it fails completely, like Lewis said we have a word for superheroes who do stuff like this, supervillains, Marshall says it himself "I hunt superheroes, but I haven't found any yet". and as a satire and or critique of Superman public spirit is pretty surface and I honestly think the writer doesn't really get what he's about. The celebrity culture thing hits a little bit better but not by much, I get what he's trying to say about how we elevate celebrities on to an unjustified pedestal but I've seen it said other places more coherently. And I think those two points not only fail but are also getting in the way of the story that I think is actually the strongest, since the reason they don't fit as superheroes is because they aren't, they're soldiers. All these psychotic superheroes are just soldiers back from the war who aren't getting the support they need either mentally or physically (but like the crossover comic the miniseries doesn't seem to think very much of mental health and therapy either) and the only time anyone does anything is when they snap. When the comic went into those topics; of those who come back from the war are thrown out into the cold with little help, how people from the outside tend to glorify what they went through and just don't understand, and how the only people who are held responsible for this are the victims of the system and not the people who took advantage of young people using patriotism and made them into monsters. And yet even this the comic doesn't handle well, martial law never goes after dock shock, and the book angles things where we should be blaming public spirit for all of this. I feel like It should be telling a story of veterans and not being able to readjust like born on the 4th of July meets judge dredd! But it's just too focused on taking jobs at feminism or pointing out steroid abuse (which seemed to serve literally no other purpose than to point it out as a thing athletes do and be a red herring) then to do something interesting with its concept, especially in the UK where they deal with veterans not getting the support they need (the veteran support fund literally made a series of parody ads about it, GI Joe toys with crippling PTSD and colostomy bags.) Then again I don't know, maybe I'm not understanding it at all, maybe there was some greater reason for all the Nazi imagery other than just shock value, maybe martial law had to be a pretty boring character, and maybe it shouldn't annoy me as much as it does. I can say I read it, I can't say I regret reading it, but I have no desire to read anything else about martial law.

Hell most of the characters in Watchmen don't even have powers.

Judge Dredd vs Marshall Law anybody?

Just a shame the story itself didn’t think to do that.

Sadly doing that would require giving the characters actual depth and Patt Mills was from what I have read sick of working on it. But even putting that aside his contempt for the superhero genre means he almost always depicted them as villains with no redeeming qualities, and from what I read he doesn't even much like the concept of traditional heroes as he feels they have been done to the point of being cliched. Also this comic also decided to mock Golden Age characters, something even fans of it have admitted is dumb since the commentary wasn't relevant. Mills isn't a bad writer by I feel there are plenty of quotes that can sum up why that way of thinking would be a terrible idea for all writers to have. "Great. So, after the audience gets bored to tears by every hero being just like every other hero, they'll be so depressed over how freakin' BLEAK they are, they'll KILL THEMSELVES!"" "Another big part of this is my realization, after a while, that grimdark is ultimately just as as sterile and fomulaic and predictable as its opposite.-One of the truths I feel I’ve stumbled across over the years is that the essence of good storytelling isn’t found in extremes, but in variation. No matter whether it’s grimdark or its opposite, too much of the same thing leads to habituation and a decrease in effectiveness. The result is either apathy or a constant arms-race of intensity that eventually becomes ridiculous."

Power does not corrupt it reveals

@@kyleshea384 Power can change Some people can handle it, others can’t

You wanna see an actual good therapy session done, (well not with superheroes but their supporting cast, close enough), check Nick Spencer's Amazing Spider-Man, one fo the early arcs, where Black Cat and Spidey team up against the Thieves Guild. while that is happening, mary Jane goes to a group therapy. it is really good. And in case you wanna see supeheroes attending therapy, the closest thing i have seen is DOOM PATROL's (the series) episode 7 of season 1: "Therapy Patrol", when they improvise a therapy session because while none of them are qualified doctors, at least talking would be a start. Ironically Cyborg in season 2, attending group therapy because PTSD, gives a reason why he can just tell others the source of his trauma: because the context that lead to the moment that caused his trauma are just.... too bizarre.

@@ianr.navahuber2195 yeah see that’s interesting stuff to explore but nope, it’s not like we have months worth of issues we could be filling with character development!

I like this idea.

Well there actually late

He's trying to get back on schedule. Good chance for the Clone Saga episode in the next day or two.

Siegel and Shuster in the first Superman story made him an anti-establishment character, which means that the character was originally anti-war from the start. But due to Siegel being drafted and corporate meddling, Sups ends up supporting the very liberals who were responsible for the Nazi's tyranny all simply because they got cold feet when the Soviets came calling. Those comics in the golden age btw, were seen as disrespectful to the honest hard work done by the troops who were risking their lives everyday during the war. Hence, that's when EC comics created Two-Fisted Tales as a response to the pro-war narrative of the 1940s-era comics.

@@CosmoShidan What are you talking about? That doesn’t even make sense. Most WW2 veterans are quite fond of the comics you say insult their memories.

@@williammorahan4907 The problem with the propaganda comics of the time, is that it thought by the US department of defense that such propaganda comics would end up creating overconfidence in American troops sent abroad, because they would think that their foes were inept. I.e. that American G.I.s were better than Axis troops. Such overconfidnece might have American soldiers run into the guns of the Axis thinking that they are not capable fighters for one. Plus, such pro-American propaganda in the comics of the time depicted the Americans always winning in the fiction, say in 1942. But in reality, the Nazis still in power, still held Europe, and more and more soldiers are putting their lives on the line. Also, if the one thing the WWII comics failed to do back in the day, was to mention the Holocaust. The mass-murder of Jews and political enemies by the Nazis was public knowledge, yet the Allied forces did nothing to destroy the death camps and gas chambers. Failing to mention this crisis is ultimately saddening, and a big failing especially on the comics industry, as they could have pushed for ending it. Instead, the portrayed the Nazis as two-dimensional mustache twirlers.

@@CosmoShidan Product of their times. Although I don’t recall Nazis ever being portrayed as incompetent in old Captain America comics. Don’t confuse them with Hogan’s Heroes. And I’m pretty sure the reason the Holocaust wasn’t prominent in American propaganda was because it wasn’t widely known that it was happening until much later. And just so you know - Allied Forces did liberate concentration and death camps, especially during the final days of the war. I know that for a fact.

@@williammorahan4907 Product of the time is no excuse. Plus, if the Americans always won in the comics, it's implying the Nazis were inept. Allied governments knew about the Holocaust as early as 1942, as did the mass media of the time, but it was heavily downplayed. Even if the Allies liberated the camps, this ignores how they could have prevented the Holocaust, had they not been anti-semetic themselves, and had they accepted poor Jewish peoples rather than wealthy ones. Case in point, WWII ain't as black and white as superhero comics.

Um, Pat Mills, Rick Veitch. Garth Ennis and Alan Moore were saying that superheroes are fascists. I mean Marshal Law's costume is what is spelling it all out.

@@CosmoShidan Alan Moor still wrote superhero comics so it's not like he hated the genre. Watchmen was his writing a cautionary tale about flawed people being exposed to the wrong ideology. Rick Veitch also worked on superhero comics before and after Bratpack so he never said he hated superheroes like Pat Mills and Garth Ennis did. Some of the other details on Brat Pack was criticizing the workings of the comic industry behind the scenes which isn't something unique to Marvel and DC. Garth Ennis' work on The Boys is a shallow criticism that has a team of people with codenames dressed in all back with superpowers fighting other people with superpowers. In essence his comic says that superheroes are bad, and the solution to them are characters who are superheroes in all but name. That is on top of it saying nothing of value about the characters it is supposedly deconstructing, like making its Batman stand in a heartless monster who aside from aesthetics, has nothing in common with Batman, and its stand ins for the X-Men are a cult brainwashed by a pedophile.

@@dragonstormx Alan Moore was writing about the way ethical principles written by liberal philosophers such as Kant and Mill don't meet reality and that no one should ever present themselves as the hero of society. I mean, Moore doesn't favor Rorschach, Nite Owl or Ozymandias. Since each represents deontology, virtue ethics and consequentialism respectively, he argues that they are easily flawed and unrealistic. I.e. Rorschach is retributive justice despite being about individual rights, the Nite Owl is complicity friends with the hypocrite, and that Ozymandias sees that the ends justifies the means as regretable, but still does it anyways. There is no wrong ideology in Watchmen; it's that they are all in the wrong. Bratpack was critiquing the superhero sidekick as child soldiering, which is Veitch's contribution to the discussion. That is what makes his take unique as he points out how dehumanizing it would be for a kid to have to face danger everyday of the week. Plus, Veitch spells out that if there is no crime in the city, then superheroes aren't needed and that supervillains are response to the supers just before Geof Johns pointed it out. In other words, within the dialog of Bratpack, he indicates that superheroes are fascistic and their child soldiering is an extension of this. About the exploitation of the comics business, we see that in much greater detail in the Bratpack prequel, Maximortal. Here's hoping Veitch finishes his King Hell Heroica with Boy Maximortal. Speaking of the Boys, that was inspired by Bratpack btw. The difference between the works is that, Bratpack has only one superpowered being like in Watchmen, and the Boys has many superpowered beings. So since it's dealing with the same themes, such as the fascistic nature of superheroes and the exploitation in the comics industry around superheroes.

@@CosmoShidan Watchman is about a lot of things, and it’s deconstruction of superheroes is by portraying them as inherently flawed human beings instead of perfect paragons of virtue. Also - Alan Moore has NEVER hated superheroes, he wouldn’t have written The Killing Joke, For The Man Who Has Everything, or Swamp Thing. He eventually got so sick of the same superhero deconstruction stories in the wake of Watchman that he created Tom Strong as a reconstruction of the genre.

@@williammorahan4907 That's not what deconstruction is though. It's designed to show the problems and contradictions in any text or work of art. What Watchmen is really trying to say, and it's ultimate message is that NO ONE should ever proclaim themselves to be society's savior. This you can find out in the book, Watchmen and Philosophy. Also, here is what Alan Moore has to say about his feelings toward the genre: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/bLR0aLV_lam2mHU.html

I 100% agree

Any good Pat Mills stories for recommendation?

@@williammorahan4907 Most of the stuff I've read from him is from the British comic magazine 2000AD. My personal favourite series from him is his dark science-fantasy saga, Nemesis the Warlock, which is about and alien anarchist wizard who fights against space klansmen, I'm not even joking. His other major works are ABC Warriors, which is about a team of robot mercenaries, and Slaine, which is a sword and sorcery series set in iron age Britain, so lots of Celtic mythology. I've put some links with a more detailed overview of each in case any strike your fancy: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qbabitqdv5uad4U.html kzfaq.info/get/bejne/kLChhpN00sm4fH0.html kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jZxke6qEm5mcnYU.html

@@obscure-cultist1709 I am familiar with Nemesis the Warlock and the ABC Warriors Thanks

A bit late to the party, I know, but I would highly recommend Charley's War which was written by Mills and illustrated by the late Joe Colquhoun. The primary protagonist Charley Bourne lies about his age to join the British Army during World War I, serving through the Somme, Passchendale and all the way through to the Armistace. There are many interesting characters and the story is well researched, with storyline involving the French Foreign Legion and the Étaples Mutiny. Mills is about a subtle as a runaway freight train when it comes to the "War is hell" message, particularly when describing the actions of the upper classes through the odious Captain Snell. Then again, with the trend towards sanitising the history of WWI in Brirain in recent years this actually helps the message of the work. In short, good story with great artwork but don't expect a happy ending.

a solider who enjoys comic books....oh hello from fantasy land are you taking in refugees from reality ?

Also Pinhead, considering the point of the Cenobites is to explore new levels of pleasure far beyond comprehension... you must know that the whole idea of breaking a hymen is a myth right? I mean it's an icky line either way but still.

@@the-aspiring-creator4249 yeah i know it's a myth

@@oliviawilliams6204 Sorry, poor wording on my part, I just thought I'd throw in another point to add to yours.

@@the-aspiring-creator4249 ah okey, no worry

The vigilante Stain from My Hero Academia was also created as a parody of Marshall Law.

and have the some of them be hero's themselves.

My understanding is that Marshal is supposed to be a horrible person. Though personally I don't see why that is supposed to make the comic any better. It avoids the hypocrisy of The Boys (the comic not the show), but it's still the comic wanting to have its cake and eat it by making a horrible person the mouthpiece for the writer's views. I hear being dark to the point the audience won't give a damn is supposed to be the point given Mills' hate for the genre, but if that's the case why did expect people to keep buying more of the books? When Watchmen had its horrible people as major characters, it didn't make them the writer's mouth pieces. That I feel is big part of what separates Rorschach from Marshal Law. Marshal is a jerk, yet the narrative keeps painting him in the right.

@@dragonstormx Got to love an ideology that could only be illustrated by having a world with superpowers that *never gets threatened.* Of course, the entire point of both is easily argued with two words, "voluntary firemen." Not to mention that idiotic "superheroes shame real soldiers" underminding itself. Yeah, "no such thing as heroes," except for the heroes we have in real life. disappointing

I'd buy that it happened considering in some panels of this comic Pinhead looked like a Palate Swap of the Cartoon version of the Mask.

A super powered serial killer. This is like throwing a new test bomb called "super napalm" to an active volcano...

I mean, given the original Mask comics, that's not much of a stretch :P

@@alexandredesbiens-brassard9109 It’s called Marshal Law/The Mask, and to my knowledge it has not been collected in any trade collection. As such, if you want to find it, you’d need to hunt down the individual issues.

Was it at all good?

Well this comic also says Golden and Silver Age characters only went after easy targets. That is also untrue. Captain America was created before America entered WWII. Superman's Golden Age radio show also had a storyline where he fought the Ku Klux Klan back it was considered a respectable organization and did damage to its reputation it never recovered from.

@@dragonstormx Indeed! I wonder in what world does Nazi sound like an easy target...

@@LetruneInedil No idea. But this comic applies the logic that people with superpowers would be ineffective against regular armies, despite the plethora of characters who are bullet proof, can dodge bullets or destroy planets. So to rebuttable that point, I say some government officer with a gun sent after out of control people with superpowers would get his face smashed in. You send Judge Dredd/Marshal Law to bust the Hulk, he'd use up all his ammo and all he'd do is make the Hulk angry. Maybe Hulk would point out that the bullets could ricochet off and hurt someone.

@@dragonstormx In real worlds, superpowers usually would fail hardly. In a superhero world, people surely would find other solutions... Humans are weird. I honestly not know thsse as history is what I even know a bit, and single heroics is so rare, and most often connect to such large amount of people, that i can not tell...

Garth Ennis believes the same thing this comic does. He's said before that Captain America's existence insults real soldiers. He created the Boys to show the world what he feels makes a REAL hero. And he's specifically claimed over and over again that soldiers are real heroes compared to superheroes. Just because you switch it around a little in the TV show, doesn't mean it's really changed much from that position.

@@FNGLHR That opinion of Ennis really gets me mad, did he just choose to be unaware that Captain America was created by Jewish writers to help inspire hope in the face of what Hitler was up to? And that actual soldiers of the army enjoyed the character as well?!

@@FNGLHR I guess he slept through Captain America: The First Avenger then, since Captain America is like the mascot of the American soldiers who exists to honor and speak for them to garner public support (the MCU took this literally in The First Avenger where he's advertising for war bonds before he actually hit the battlefield), like how Bibleman wants to tell everyone about his God and give glory to Him, not himself.

@@alexandredesbiens-brassard9109 Yeah, I definitely agree with you on that. I cannot fucking stand The Boys comic, yet I dig the hell out of the TV Show. It’s probably because they dial things back and flesh out both The Boys and the Seven, and make them more nuance and interesting as characters.

@@alexandredesbiens-brassard9109 You cannot polish a turd, The Boys is and always was a turd and no TV show slightly cushioning its source material will change that. Get over it, Linkara doesn't want to watch this shit and niether do I. Especially considering how little it actually changes. The show still hates superheroes, still glorifies edgelord violence and the director's opinions on the MCU cement this fact. It is the same shitty anti-superhero garbage just masked with an attempt at anti-hyper conservatism. And you are not going to convince to give it a chance by insulting me over my decision to not want to watch it. This show is adapted from a comic book that portrayed a bunch of superheroes who were on the spectrum as inept, idiotic cowards who flaunted every harmful stereotype about autistic people and had one of them piss and shit their pants so a "Normie" could save them. Fuck the Boys, Fuck Marshall Law, Fuck Garth Ennis. Me refusing to watch the show does not mean you have to stop, but don't try and convince me to watch something that hates me, hates what I love and actively enforces it's hateful rhetoric in its own advertising. I don't owe that fucking show a chance and niether does Linkara. Calling us close minded because we refuse to watch a shitty show based on a shitty comic we hated says more about you than us.

Honestly that is why I think the show is one of the few times where the adaptation is superior to the original.

Jack kirby was a scout, going alone into enemy lines to memorialize landmarks to draw maps. According to legend he killed dozens of nazis on those trips. He probably exaggerated his kill count, but I like the idea he was a real life howling commando.

For the record, Kirby and Simon made Captain America before fighting in WWII.

So it's like Lovecraft meets Fifty Shades?

@@autobotstarscream765 basically yeah. Truth is barker was doing a love craft riff with them. And that was what made them scary - demons would just be evil... but cenobites aren’t good or evil since they don’t care about those labels at all. That’s always more scary than than just evil... something that doesn’t care about that dichotomy and is so powerful that it doesn’t have to care is much scarier than just “demons from hell”.

That statement is pretty lame, isn't it.

Thank you, just thank you

I’m sorry did someone actually claim that

@@tylerfoster9719 A couple people with the biggest name being Bill Maher who took the fact that people were mourning Stan Lee to moan about how in the last few years we now live in a world where "adults don't have give up on kid's stuff" and say "of course Donald Trump would get elected in a country that thinks comic books are important."" And if you find yourself vomiting in your mouth, don't worry that means you're a normal empathic human and not an opportunistic scumbag like Bill Maher

Fact Alan Moore later joined that camp too is disheartening .3.

Agreed

Yeah, bucked the superheroes deconstruction tropes. Seriously, if you really want to do superhero deconstruction, not try be dark and edgy and not make superheroes edgy, dark and major jerks. Like do a superhero deconstruction story where an few of them became a police force, maybe beat up a villain while they telling about their plans and stuff... You know that's kind of stuff, without being so extremely dark and edgy, folks. And yeah, i hate superheroes deconstructions cause they stupid, dark and mostly grossed. Seriously, what the heck, writers? Why got to be cynical, dark and sometimes nihilistic, at times, folks? We need superhero stories to be optimistic and aspiring instead of this garbage.

The NBC Show?

Probably

Yeah, Empowered's world is more... professional... in a way. I prefer my superhero decons to be on the line of Empowered and the Venture Bros. Supers and Villains have there own agency and separation of the "mask & man" profiles they hold on to. Emp's group: The Superhomies are a mix of professional supers... and HR nightmare "frat boy" douchebag Turd sandwiches and their villains range from creepy dudes (or dudettes) or some who take their profession very well that they would congratulate their hero (especially Emp) for being a good sport or winning against them. And Venture Bros' villains are very gentleman types or nuanced people who want to achieve something from the role they play... And have STANDARDS. Marshall Law feels like a one track ludicrous speed hate train on comics in general: a Judge Dredd satire, a superhero satire, a 90's comic satire. With all the frustrating nonsense from Garth Ennis, Mark Millar and Frank Miller. This is basically if WANTED and Holy Terror were one universe.

@@battlion507 It's easy to read the caped culture of Empowered as a police corruption allegory, too. And a nuanced take on it at that, where the decent heroes end up allowing so many missing stairs that it's just a ramp. Especially when you get to the events of the most recent volumes and how Emp's potential for changing the world for the better isn't about power, but encouraging the best in each other.

I was just coming here to comment that Adam Warren's Empowered is a much better deconstruction of the genre, because not all supers are bad, and even those who are assholes like, say, Captain Havok, DO worry a bit about the general population. And it also deconstructs the cape killer idea, with Thugboy and his issues, and how it's not really a solution. And yes, characters you can like. That's very important. I'd love to see Linkara's opinion on it, although perhaps the first volumes may be too fanservicey.

Yeah, 'cuz there's actually good people in Empowered. People who want to do good with their powers, even if they suffer from weaknesses in physical and emotional strength. There's actual struggle and character development, and views that change and evolve. There's actual depth, thought and effort put into it (possibly too much given how frustrating the wait can be between volumes), and it's not just a broad, weightless, superficial "superheroes suck" statement without substance to back it up (which, admittedly, Warren has been guilty of in the past).

The Concept of Anti-Heroes and the Damaging influence they can have on society is more needed than mean spirited degradations of Pure Superheroes these days in my opinion. It's why I love Superman vs. The Elite so much.

Not really. Especially with how superhero comics have changed so much in the years since that comic was released. not to mention the far more public exposure superhero media and how that media affects a larger and more varied audience than typtical comic book readers. The boys tv series is a good example - since a lot of the satire is based around the pop culture influence superheroes have gained and deconstructions them more like celebrities than heroes.

@@daltonwilliams1723 But its become overwhelming and honestly tired. At this point, I just want to see more straight up superhero stories again.

@@GeneralKenobi75 what??? Like the hundreds that are still made every year? Seriously, why do people act like deconstruction is the only thing writers do, when in reality they're not. It's just more popular now.

@@daltonwilliams1723 Its because of their popularity that's annoying. You say hundreds of straight up superhero stories are made each year(name same notable ones that aren't just a dark mess) but they're eclipsed by these deconstructions because of how "edgy" they are. That's what's overwhelming. People are more inclined to by these deconstruction stories because "they're so deep man" rather than a story about Superman saving the day, no matter how good it is. Now superhero comics think they need to give a "message" about how bad superheroes have it and we shouldn't admire them. Like Heroes in Crisis.

Some of the edgy new generation felt cynical and mean spirited, but I was not aware of the context of the dark age of comics when I read it.

@@bthsr7113 That's still a fair point, though - it does have its more cynical moments (though mostly for good thematic reason as you say). Even at that, though, I do love that it takes the time to show Magog's genuine remorse over the mistakes he's made. Others, not so much, but he was the face of the new generation so I feel it's a clever way to add a little note of positivity and humanity without getting too contrived and ham-fisted at the end. I more specifically meant that it never felt cynical or mean-spirited in how it explores Superman's character or, in doing so, felt mean-spirited about the genre (taken as a whole) or the human (/Kryptonian) condition. It explores the flaws and limitations of his character and his worldview pretty thoroughly but it doesn't immediately side with The Joker and decide that he (or anyone that powerful) must be one sufficiently bad day away from becoming a complete monster. I'm not quite a fervent on that point as Lewis - I can find stories like that entertaining too, in their way, but my general taste does run more to the positive and the hopeful. Watchmen is, for sure, one of the greatest comics I've ever read (and, for my sins, I adored the movie too) but it's not something I feel the need to go back to nearly as often as I do to KC.

The art ruins it for me.

@@funkyweapon1981 agree if this book was actually parody it would look better

It is so sad (and Ironic) that it was Gerry Duggan's Deadpool who starred that comic. The same Deadpool who because of his screw ups and because he got screwed over by HYDRA Stevil and Maria Hill, (and Stryfe), Deadpool would eventually have to kill some of his friends or friends of his friends to protect his own daughter; and would later try to put a bounty on his head for whoever was capable of killing him, and when that failed, he essentially lobotomized himself (the closest he could get to kill himself), but because healing factor, that just ended up resetting his mind into factory settings, forgetting everything about his daughter, and everything he suffered

@@ianr.navahuber2195 I’m ok with it. Wade’s plot threads are usually bonkers, you don’t read for the plot. You read because Wade makes you laugh, or cry, or is just being a well written character. This is also why ASBR failed, we wanted Batman, the terrifying vigilante who still remembers what it’s like to be a scared 8YO. We got Crazy Steve: some a-hole who thinks he’s better than everyone because he’s an EXTREME *EDGE LORD*

Honestly , I prefer Deadpool as a villain protagonist. Shame for all the R rating bluster, the movies did not have the nads to go that direction....

@@saidi7975 Why?

Yeah… a friend of mine who’s had thoughts like that in the past has seen that story and found it to be somewhat tone deaf and a little offensive. Deadpool just said a lot of the wrong things that wouldn’t really help someone in that situation, and I know he’s not SUPPOSED to be the best person for this, but maybe don’t write a story about him with a potential suicide victim to begin with then.

So... satire-ception?

Indeed.

the confessor also mentioned something called Molach. So we should probbaly note that somewhere in the files of predictive guesses. I'm not sure what that means though beyond referenceing a demon of... something. I dunno, i only ever saw that *weird* buffy episode where the demon got put into a robot and was connected to all of the internet. it was season 1. they were still finding their place.

@@Yellow13Firestorm Did some Google searching and apparently, Moloch is the name of a bull-headed Mesopotamian god associated with fire and child sacrifice. Not really sure that's what Lewis is going for, especially since Margaret's not with him right now.

Dang! I saw your comment on the last episode and was cheering when I saw the Dinobite! XD Congratulations on the prediction~

That's because those are made by people who hate superheroes alongside with The Boys, Marshal Law and orhers.

Meh, the art's not my thing. I hate blocky artwork.

@@funkyweapon1981 Fair enough, that's about as good reason as any.

I have to add that first ML issues got published in '87 when 90s antiheroes weren't a thing yet.

@@funkyweapon1981 What I gather is that the art is supposed to be silly, but I just find it ugly.

I have read about some of its criticism. Some of it sounds like it makes legitimate points like issues with X-Men working as an allegory for oppressed minorities. Though it goes overboard with the stand ins being a bunch of heartless elitists rather than actually wanting to help people. Its jabs at violent characters like the Punisher I see nothing wrong with. But some of the jabs it make at Golden and Silver Age characters sound unfair, vilifying them for values of the era they came from. That strikes me as unfair, by that logic, you may as well condemn everything with values that doesn't mesh with modern values. There was also it depicting those characters as fundamentalist Christians. Many of the famous superhero writers were Jews. That serves no purpose beyond acting as a power fantasy for the writer, which Marshal Law sounds it increasingly became the more it went on.

Superman Vs Hellraiser might actually be an entertaining read. Pinhead is so confident when his victims are helpless, how's he going to feel going against a guy who his chains can't pierce, who can easily break those chains, and can throw the prick (needle pun intended) through a solid foot of concrete with ease?

@@hellishhybrid1839 Hm, Superman is weak to magical entities and the cenobites are demonic (depending on who you ask) so there's a chance he'd have a tougher shot.

The whole point of superhero deconstruction is to demonstrate that superheroes ARE fascists actually.

@@CosmoShidan And it fails spectacularly

@@hypno-scream5652 So the crime-fighin' types like Batman who goes after 'criminals' isn't fascistic since he has defined his enemies, which is what fascists do? Or that if he were were not around, then criminals will flood the city, meaning he has a messiah complex? Or that he is out for vengeance against criminals because they took his parents, which is Ahab complex? But then you have crime-fightin' types like the Green Lantern who is a space cop and has defined his enemies? I can go on, but the point is, fascists define who their opponents are and aim to suppress them, which is what Superheroes do.

@@CosmoShidan Oh goody, you're one of those guys.

@@hypno-scream5652 So I take it you have dislike of Batman and Philosophy and The Politics of Gotham then?

Do you mean the comics? Or the TV show?

@@thatonea-hole Yes.

@@cartooncritic7045 So both?

@@thatonea-hole Mostly the Comic. The comic sorta suffers from Garth Ennis' usual shtick on "UHHH SUPERHEROES SUCK! THIS IS THE REAL WORLD YA IDIOT!" like many other creators at the time. The show manages to tone down "SOME" of the unpleasant themes and focus a much better narrative. Along with the fact of Linkara hating The Boys because it sold better than the Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes) at the time.

@@cartooncritic7045 Hi I didn't know you watched Linkara.

examples of series i watched that do "adult content done right": - DOOM PATROL (which captures the fun of super heroes while essentially dealing with their mental issues, a good adaptation of morrison's, gerad way's and classic doom patrol line up in general) - HAPPY!: Series about an alcoholic Hit-Man teaming up with a girl's imaginary friend to rescue said girl from a guy in a santa's costume. (this one is based on grant morrison's work, But the series is better. is still graphic and degeneate but in a nuanced way)

It feels uncomfortable because there's a difference between just having mature content and actually BEING mature, which this comic really does not seem to get. It has things like murder, torture, sex, nudity, pain, bleakness...but there's no substance to it. It's just there because that's stuff the writer considers "adult" but doesn't understand you actually need to do something meaningful with those aspects in order for it to be adult. It's a pizza cutter story; all edge and no point. My go to example of something like this done right (or at least better than most) is Goblin Slayer, at least the anime and light novels (the manga feels very excessive and exploitive). A thing that the goblins in the series are well known for doing is rape, which is how they procreate. However, the focus of the story is not on the acts of rape themselves but rather the aftermath and trauma of those who've suffered at the goblins' hands. Sword Maiden's story is about the person and everything she's had to deal with, internal and externally, since escaping that terrible experience. In anime and LN, we see little of what the goblins did to her, because our focus should not be on the act of her being raped but rather the fact that she was and how it affected her going forward. The focus should be on the hardship she faced and how Goblin Slayer has helped her despite his own trauma leaving him somewhat emotionally stunted. The mature content is actually used in a mature way, making it feel far less uncomfortable and gross than something that just uses it for the sake of using it like this comic or DC's Identity Crisis.

That would be awesome 👌

Glad that I'm not the only one who noticed.