It certainly doesn't seem to be pleasing many people

Welcome to Adobe. I mean the new Pioneer... Pay top dollar to still not own a damn thing... Ridiculous.

If they actually released Some new gear instead of trying to flog 2016 tech to everyone they might make more money

My ddj-rr is so good, I've just had some pots repaired and I'll stick with rb6! My laptop can't handle stems anyway. ​@@markstephenson9280

@@neosean9984 No no no no. We don't go there mate. What Adobe does is in another league. I don't like what Pioneer is doing either. But it's by far not as malicious as what Adobe is doing. (not yet)

Exactly the same here. Now with Denon DJ kit.

Same here, moved over to Denon last year and now would never go back, the engine dj library management software is so much better and nicer to use plus it’s free!!! and I don’t need to mention dual layer deck mode on their players something that the so called industry standard Pioneer still haven’t done! Bye bye Pioneer

@@rkashby78 yeah their processors in even the CDJ3000 are laggy just loading waveforms and jumping hot cues theres no way it could manage having dual layers😐

SC5000 released in 2017 (!) still gets full and FREE major updates… just fu*k Pioneer, lol

Same here, I bought the SC LIVE 4. Great piece of kit. No regrets for leaving pioneer.

I wish I could like this 1000 time and it was at the top.

EXACTLY!!! I’m a developer as well. The code that handles the login, the old hardware ID and the license could have been carried forward. No doubt in my mind. But AlphaTheta said why they did this… I’m affected, I have an -RX. My long term plan was to continue running Rekordbox 5.8 and only recently loaded 6 on my laptop. I believe that my -RX will work with dJay Pro (on a laptop anyway) and may transition to dJay…

For the longest time, I have been wondering how hard it would be to write a virtual USB driver device that mimic to be something else.

As a developer you do know when MS and APL said they were moving to 64bit if made everything prior obsolete?

Also why waste resources on trying to keep older devices and software working? All the devices aren’t even made or sold anymore. We ask for all this new shite and don’t expect to old stuff to be left out.

@@mivandi3059 Until all of the major clubs get rid of CDJs and Pioneer mixers I just can’t see an end. It’s basically their USP along with the imagine and branding that goes with it. I don’t think they could sustain the company just from venue sales though but as long as they maintain this monopoly they will always be a reluctant only choice for club djs.

They don't see it that way, in fact I see if your way as well. They don't. Usually companies who don't realize it, are headed for a major loss. I do think however B2B (business 2 business) they may survive, but the next DJ equipment I purchase won't be pioneer! Already put in around $15,000 into Pioneer in 20 years, I'm done with them.

And Serato don't forget that they bought them

And with this I honestly hope Denon picks up on things and really progresses with their product. They've got an already great set of players, they just need to keep pushing and we could very well see the standard change with this greedy move by the new holding company.

@@GamerNycteris they didn't buy it yet, inMusic filed a lawsuit in NZ to stop it.

Basically if you pay for Rekordbox, you can use any controller you can get to work with it (or none at all) - the only possible defence from them here would be "the new Rekordbox is incapable of knowing if you have an older controller plugged in" - which does, in all honesty, seem a little implausible, I agree.

@@digitaldjtips I think this especially falls apart given the XP2 is still a hardware unlock and the XP1 is not. I guarantee you there’s little to no difference hardware wise in those units that would limit the XP1 in Rekordbox 7 that wouldn’t also affect the XP2.

@@digitaldjtips If it sucessfully picks the correct midi mappings to use once a controller is connected to RB with subscription, then it clearly knows what controller is plugged in. The only technical reason I can see in this case would be the fact that some of the older controllers used easily spoofable methods of identification (SX2 and SX3 only needed you to name a MIDI device correctly and RB would pick it up), but those are so old that you already needed a subscription for them in RB6.

Iirc the first corporation to create a subscription model was Autodesk, the owners of Maya, which they did after they bought up all the competing software. Once they saw that, Adobe and Avid soon followed suit, (along with a bunch of others, I’m sure). The 3D world responded with Blender, an open-source application, which just keeps getting better. At least Avid had the decency to make the older version of Pro Tools compatible with the subscription-based version (I think they knew there would be a riot otherwise.) And of course everyone knows how much Adobe sucks - charging you money so they can steal your work to feed their AI learning. We need some smart people to create an open-source solution for DJ software that is hardware-agnostic. (Unless that already exists - I’m not really in the loop in that world) They are all vampires!

@@ChipJam Mixxx exists as an open source DJ software solution (I even contributed to it briefly), but unless your DJ style consists only of EQing, you're gonna have a rather bad time with it. FX workflow and quality is pretty bad and scratching on the pioneer controllers I tried to use with it had so much latency it was unusable.

$19 a month for VJ or $300 for a license which is insane for dj software.

@@playeveryday01 Yes, but depends how long term you look. The cheapest you can subscribe to Rekordbox is $120 a year. So if you think you are going to be at this for 3+ years, you start saving again with Virtual DJ.

@@chrisrioux6436 Ive used Record box for 6 years and never subscribed. Kind of shocked people need to do this.

@@playeveryday01Serato DJ Pro has entered the chat.

​@@drumrushyou mean, the Serato owned by AlphaTheta?

This is blasphemy!!! 😡

How can you even compare regarding this subject? Denon doesn't evenb have a fully fledged digital DJ suite so your comparison doesn't make any sense.

@@TheFunkloft it's not just a software thing, it's all about their approach towards their customers.

​@@TheFunklofttheir built in Engine OS gear does a whole lot more than any Pioneer unit does, even when hooked up to a PC. Just look at the SC6000m, dual layer, stand alone unit, analyses files on the unit, has Wifi, and a ton of more features Pioneer can only dream of. You are giving Pioneer too much credit, and that's why they take advantage of loyal customers based on branding alone 😅😅😅

That is another story entirely! Keep an eye on the site as we learn more about that...

Yeah I've got mine time locked on mac....but not goid!

Precisely my concern as well. When I first heard about this, my immediate thought was "well thank goodness Serato still respects lifetime licenses" and then the penny dropped and my blood ran cold.

​@@pepedluxDoes Serato no longer have lifetime licenses??

@@JamesMincey it still has life time licenses but alpha theta/pioneer are trying to buy serato. if that happens you can pretty much say goodbye to those life time licenses.

Take off your tinfoil hat for a minute. Batteries degrade over time. That's just a fact.

@@ruk2023-- I guess you never heard of batterygate. But yeah I know batteries die. I’m a mechanic for the last 25 years or so. ✌🏻

​@@IamPreacherMan Batterygate is when Apple slow down the processor in your phone when your battery is too old to keep up with it due to it degrading over time. It is an effect of your battery dying not the cause of it.

Djay Pro full feature set is subscription only

@@badfoot and it cheaper compare Rekordbox Core plan.

Virtual DJ is so underrated.

You should'nt have to buy Virtual DJ, You have already brought the gear for it to work with Pioneer own software.

@@cyberphonicdon’t be silly. How does that help the developers of VDJ? the company have nothing to do with pioneer. DUH!

How can you even compare regarding this subject? Denon doesn't evenb have a fully fledged digital DJ suite so your comparison doesn't make any sense.

@@TheFunkloft you're right Denon doesn't charge a subscription.

always has and always will

It works even better than rekordbox

@@Santen_ i love how i had 16 year old gear and it still worked on vdj .. pioneer is crazy for making people pay for that

Even has export mode to usb for CDJ usage.

I think if peope know upfront then that is fine, otherwise you can see why people get upset.

@@digitaldjtips Yes also that, it's kind of a change of terms that never asked for your consent.

To be clear, the reason for this is locking out of Rekordbox 7 (it still all works with Rekordbox 6).

Designed obsolescence is a business decision for a better revenue stream. The problem is you piss your user base off this losing customers and decreasing revenue. Honestly they are doing this because they make no money post sale on a dj controller and as a company that makes stuff the upgrade cycle of hardware isn’t anywhere near what they can make with a software subscription.

@@Psyclic. People that are still using one of the affected controllers are highly unlikely their main target audience.

this.

Do Not understand your response. Virtual Dj works with 99 percent of the dj equipment. Don't have to worry about pioneer trying to get more money from you.

​@Lordblanca they're agreeing with you mate

This ​@@rjmn1

Haha yep, just fired it up again last nite. Had fun again. Time to cancel some subscriptions...

And it never fails! I’ve watched so many DJs fall flat in their faces at gigs because their laptop crashed, or they had to install some new software update…🤦‍♂️ That’s always my cue to step in and throw some records on.

How do you back-up your vinyl?

@@djsubculture2786 what do you mean? Why would you back-up vinyl? If ever i buy a 2 copies, and if i play and older records from like 15-20 years ago, wich has a lot of wear and tear, and you hear some crackles and pops, well, thats the charm of vinyl for me.

How does this even make sense. Looking for vinyl, ordering vinyl, waiting for vinyl to arrive, ordering your vinyl boxes, dragging your vinyl, looking for the right vinyl when you're playing... I get that you want to be old school but your reasoning doesn't make any sense at all

@@sebastiaanvandingenen1472 no, i don’t want to be oldschool, thats why i also play with cdj’s. And yes, you make valid points, but listening/searching/ and ordering vinyl i find more fun then searching/downloading/prepping digital music. And i don’t mind carrying a record bag. Also, i said, i got sick of it, my opinion, if others prefer digital music, fine. I just get more joy and a better feeling playing vinyl.

Do you think it's dirty or just clumsy?

@@digitaldjtips I think there’s a certain ‘we can do what we want’ element to their decisions these days…. Club standard and all that.

@@digitaldjtips this is just dirty. i started DJing over 10 years ago, but half of that time i was on a hiatus for work. i always wanted to get the cdj 2000s to play on, but could never justify the cost. and i still cant justify the cost, but they are starting to go down in price, and there are a lot of companies that i dont support, but will buy their products used, like apple, and even meta, as im considering getting a quest pro. that way they dont get my money, and i still get their product, and someone else gets a little bit for their old stuff. now, i dont use rekordbox, i switch between virtualdj and traktor, the latter of the 2, offered me a huge discount to upgrade to the newest version, even though the latest version came out maybe a year ago. they didnt have to do that, and i wouldve been just fine using the version i had, because it still works fine, but because of the discount, i definitely bought it. i plan to mainly dj in VR, but what if i was asked to dj a convention? im not sure if i would be bringing my own equipment or if theyre supplying it for us. ive seen both happen. apple and meta do stupid things that can be overlooked, and these are things that wont see the light of day. im hesitant to even show brand loyalty to a company that forces people to pay for a subscription to use their hardware with their software, when they previously allowed it. i dont care if its limited functionality. this is an act of heresy. and in fact, just recently, sony betrayed the gaming community with helldivers 2. they had almost half a million dedicated players, they were all into the lore, until sony decided to force everyone to create a psn account, and in under a year, they went to having a game of the year candidate, to struggling to even have 50 thousand players on at any given time. now, i know that all the big name djs are used to using pioneer, but im sure that some of these djs are going to fall out of favor with them. and James Hype does not like the cdj 3000s. he said it on his own video, they dont work with his style of djing

Totally dirty! They’re asking for 20 bucks a month yet DJay Pro is 50 bucks… A YEAR!

Guess they figured out that one time controller payments are not a sustainable way to finance lifetime software updates.

That's what I did and it was worth the value. Even my Pioneer DDJ-SZ (a controller that ended up being discontinued three/four years later after it was released), works perfectly on VirtualDJ, just that the controls can be confusing at times, but you get used to it overtime.

​@@DJMJM what do you mean by controls can be confusing? They should be mapped pretty close if not exact. Drop their support a note and see if there is something they can fix or point you too. The VDJ team have been great supporting me with any questions, thoughts, or expressions of anger :)

@@No--0--Spin What I mean by that is, I'm used to adjusting the controls for specific DJ controllers. It's just that whenever you have two other people that are not used to DJaying with a controller made for Serato but it's also compatible with VirtualDJ, it's a learning curve considering VirtualDJ8 gives you just as many options as Engine and Rekordbox does, but a lot and I mean A LOT more controls than Serato DJ has in the software. Considering the DDJ-SZ and SR controllers are over ten years old, they don't have the bells and whistles that many recent DJ controllers have, especially when it comes to stems. Thankfully VirtualDJ8 can do this with another cue point window option, just not with serato sadly.

Yup, just updated my SC5000s to Engine 4.0 😁

@@JeremiahHartmanPhotography Engine 4.0 is an OS for the player, not software. False equivalence.

@@djLovelyTime the point still stands. denon loses out by limiting themselves to the older hardware, but they still do it

In my opinion, that’s even more impressive. Denon is working with an older chip and still updating them. Where-as most of these are just MIDI devices, there shouldn’t be technical limitations to keep them upgraded. The DDJ-XP1 came out in 2017 as well and is now unsupported without a subscription! Crazy!

@@djLovelyTimeengine is both the os and the software

👌

Native Instruments gave it a good run for a while with their Traktor products line.

Because you choose to use their gear.

Denon Prime Series (2, 4, 4+) and the SC-6000M blow any Pioneer gear out. Not even close 😂

That's true, even Mixxx apparently works with this (not tried it though). There are always options!

@@digitaldjtips if it doesnt work with mixxx, it will soon

You already have to.

Here is why: djtips.co/funding

You so called Denon users are so full of shit. How can you say you "switched and never looked back" after going from a fully featured XZ to the crappy Prime Go?

Yep I paid for all the RB5 add-ons just to find, needed to pay again, and then a subscription model RB6

Same here. Time to switch.

@@djdv8inthemix well when I was using RB four when I got my RX I paid for the effect pack which I think is wrong now that we have to pay for subscriptions

the only way they would budge is with a class action

We would be interested to hear their response to this question, as it is at the heart of things.

They spent extra money on their new gear to change the signal slightly so they could discern it from old gear so they could then charge you more. It's more than forced upgrading, it's a planned attack on the people who bought Pioneer gear before it was owned by AlphaTheta. They are going to get your money or your not using Pioneer stuff anymore if it's up to them. Its dirty as fuck.

The FLX6 is a hardware unlock device so your rant doesn't make any sense.

They are trying to buy Serato and force the same thing there as well. The hobby will be killed by corporations

Not so easy to find all of today's music on vinyl, though

@@digitaldjtips it’s definitely getting more easy though:)

@@digitaldjtips DVS helps here. But i was tired of connecting my laptop each time i wanted to play some new track so i added one CDJ400 and use it with USB stick for this.

Sounds like your going to have to break out the back breaking crates again😂😂😂😂

@@OutlandishWayZ I already am, and DJing feels fun again.

What Apple hardware are you referring to?

@@davidlandrum any MacBook or iPhone, basically. But I don't regard they've been fined for it, quite the contrary.

Out of curiosity: What's so special about Apple in that instance? Look at Microsoft (Windows) - support for legacy versions will end sooner or later there as well. And btw, I am still using my 2017 MacBook Pro and it's working totally fine without anyone at Apple forcing me to upgrade lol

@@rubendacostaesilva8442 But, the current release of MacOS supports Macs from 2018.

2015 MacBook user here, still works extremely well.

How can you even compare regarding this subject? Denon doesn't even have a fully fledged digital DJ suite so your comparison doesn't make any sense.

​@@TheFunkloft If I need something like a "fully fledged digital DJ suite", I connect my prime 4 to my PC and open Serato. The Prime 4 is a standalone console. There's no strict need for a DJ suite. I could throw music files on a USB drive and start DJing. If I'm serious, I prepare and sync my music to with Denon's Engine DJ. It does everything I've ever done with rekordbox, better and faster. I've been a Pioneer user and have never looked back since switching -- I suppose hearing Pioneer paywalling things got me more passionate about my Denon, resulting in my somewhat off-topic comment.

​@@TheFunkloftbro you literally cut and paste the same comment on here wtf? 😂😂😂

How can you even compare regarding this subject? Denon doesn't even have a fully fledged digital DJ suite so your comparison doesn't make any sense.

100% agree, engine software analyzed my entire 1TB SSD of music in a matter of minutes, Serato and other software needs to step up their game.

How can you even compare regarding this subject? Denon doesn't even have a fully fledged digital DJ suite so your comparison doesn't make any sense.

​@@TheFunkloft😂😂😂😂😂

I would do this as well but I live on an island in Portugal so hunting for vinyl is non existent. I opted for getting Phase DJ and it's actually pretty incredible. This is minimal drift but nothing that will hinder you.

How can you even compare regarding this subject? Denon doesn't even have a fully fledged digital DJ suite so your comparison doesn't make any sense.

I think virtual DJ is their current back up plan as a fellow rane user I'm prepared to switch if they pull this with Serato.

@@Julezliddell You know what... I didn't think about VDJ! I think I will follow your lead on this to be prepared as well. They say if you "fail to plan" then you're "planning to fail." So being fluent with backup software is clutch planning! Thanks!!

I say, go for virtual dj. Works like a charm with DDJ-RR and of course also with Flex

The money you would spend on a FLX4 will allow you to buy Virtual DJ infinity outright and not have to worry about this BS ever again. Lifetime updates. This is why I left Rekordbox. I'm not playing their stupid games so their CEO's can buy new houses or cars every year. Let them lose it all. The same thing is happening in the gaming industry. They want to start subscription services. They can subscribe themselves all the way to the unemployment line.

probably

damn

Yep, and the subscription fees will continuously rise, then the ads will be another charge to get rid of. They saw software and saw a userbase that had no choice but to subscribe and pay whatever they wanted. They are looking at the top level djs, they don't care about the pleebs, they want their cut of the industry not just the gear.

@@aaronb9630 James Hype is not using the cdj 3000s. he does not like them

They don’t own Serato, at the minute.

i doubt it

I literally just ordered the performer. Feeling pretty good about it.

That is true

Pioneer DJ is at pains to point out that it still works with RB6, so they would say users still have a free option.

Standalone gear is the future.

Not sure about this

Maybe for the free trial but i dont even think so, and not for the free version.

This seems to be a theme that is emerging - many not actually that impressed with the software, so feel aggrieved when the terms of use change in a way that costs them more. People say they don't like subscriptions, for instance, but maybe they don't like subscriptions to things they need but aren't very happy with in the first place?

Caveat emptor of course, but yes.

ITS FREE!! :)))

Frankly who wants Bluetooth on DJ gear anyway?!

@@digitaldjtips I’m certainly not bothered, I love a good sturdy XLR cable and prefer my music to be on a physically connected drive :) I feel like it’s being made out to be more important than it actually is.

The thing is too, at least they tried to enable Bluetooth for all devices. Engine DJ had a beta out for that had Bluetooth for all devices (including the Prime 4 and SC5000s), but ended up disabling it in the final release due to stutters in playback and limitations with the older Bluetooth chip. It wasn’t done out of greed.

@@chrisrioux6436 exactly.

Not that odd really, a perfectly acceptable scenario and good point well made, it sounds like that jumping on a mates controller is done now, especially weird seeing as quite a few have dual usb ports to connect.

Yes, The dual USB question is an excellent one though.

How do you go back to rekordbox 5

@@mcsmithy Dunno, never left it. I already had the serial numbers for my gear activated on this system so I don’t even know if you still can activate them

Lol yuuuup!!

You're right in a way, they are really very simple boxes at heart.

So is Pioneer. The CDJ2000 just got a firmware update a couple of months ago. Don't campare apples with oranges.

Wouldn't say the software has got worse...

RB6 works fine on my M1 Macbook. I find RB7 more sluggish and random pauzes. And sorting doesn't work most of time. And ctrl-f doesn't work like it used to...

Only if we let it

Using daily for a 4 hr open format set...not a single problem.

@@djsasha.remix.mashups good for you. I use for 30 mins and the playlist flicker. Audio quality drops. It freezes and a host more of issues.

Virtual Dj has A Pro license for DDJ-RR. Either life time license or subscription Benifit is if you change controller license will still be valid

Don't be sad. RB5 is faster and has less trouble and better user interface

Fair enough Michael!

Well, as soon as we heard about it we reported it, clearly.

Sounds like utopia!

you probably have nothing to worry about in the shorter term, so all good - for now anyway!

the problem is that these are just controllers, that use midi. the controller can easily just ignore the features it doesnt know what to do with, and denon supports their newest OS on their older standalone units

@@masterbond9 absolutely right. It's dirty but slightly genius of pioneer if you think about it. Everyone that bought the ddj 400 will most likely get the flex 4 instead of doing the subscription. That's a huge amount of money for the company.

Interesting theory, let's see!

@@atypical_blk_guy yea, and thats the problem. theyre going to get away with it for a little bit, but theyre just putting themselves in a risky position for themselves. all denon has to do is push out a better, more responsive flagship cdj. and while i havent personally messed with any of the newer gear yet, im really liking the way engineOS looks and feels. i dont think it would be difficult for them to slap that into a CDJ, maybe give it wifi and integrate streaming directly into it? hell why not give it a NIC? pioneer has been using ethernet to link everything for years now, why not just give it basic internet access? James Hype already said that he does not like the cdj3000s just recently

Well, seing if you pay a few bucks it suddenly works again, it seems more of a marketing decision.

What? Really? Wtf 🫤

@@DmitryPuffin true

This is not the case

Disagree with the abandoning pro DJs thing, they utterly dominate that part of the market

@@digitaldjtips The reason I said this is because the company is far behind its competitors in software updates and is currently focused on making money. One day, amateur DJs will become professionals, and by that time, Pioneer will not be by their side.