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Planer Restoration 33: Scraping the Saddle to the Cross Rail

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Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org

Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org

4 жыл бұрын

Continuing the restoration process on my circa 1890's New Haven Mfg. Co. Metal Planer by scraping the cross slide saddle to the cross rail. There were four surfaces that had to all be scraped into the cross rail, plus the front face that the clapper box rotates on.
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Пікірлер: 120
@hairyfro
@hairyfro 4 жыл бұрын
Don't know why anyone complains about scraping videos. It's easy enough to click on the next video. Many of us find this stuff fascinating and are happy to see this.
@RinoaL
@RinoaL 4 жыл бұрын
this is turning into the scraping channel.
@jasongarland3165
@jasongarland3165 4 жыл бұрын
Think of all the hours Keith has spent scraping on this planer with his BIAX and scraper. Then remember that this planer dates back to the 1890s, way back before power tools. Just imagine how long it took the old timers to scrape these machines in by hand with tool steel scrapers! I bet they had the patience of Job back then!
@freddupont3597
@freddupont3597 4 жыл бұрын
Doggo remains unphased by the beautiful (and noisy) scraping patterns!
@ROBRENZ
@ROBRENZ 4 жыл бұрын
Looking good Keith! ATB, Robin
@wouldchuck3619
@wouldchuck3619 4 жыл бұрын
If only everyone put this much effort and time into what they do! You sir are a very dedicated person! Excellent work Keith!!
@zachwolf5122
@zachwolf5122 4 жыл бұрын
I really like to hear you talk through your decision making process. So much of being an expert is being able to think like one. Hearing someone problem solve helps me see what I should be asking myself
@edsmachine93
@edsmachine93 4 жыл бұрын
Very nice work Keith. Great content. Amazing how old the planer is, and how good the old timers were that made it. You have insured it will last a lifetime. Better than new. Thanks again, Ed M.
@stumccabe
@stumccabe 4 жыл бұрын
I'm really enjoying this planer restoration - thanks.
@jonfeuerborn5859
@jonfeuerborn5859 4 жыл бұрын
Great work, Keith. I never tire of watching your content.
@williambixby4108
@williambixby4108 4 жыл бұрын
Mr. R. Thank you for your teachings. I suspect this plainer is going to come out of restoration more accurate than when new. Scraping and flacking, I never knew. I have now watched, as far as I can determine all your videos. I would like to see the stoker you refurbished being utilized. I am a Vietnam era submariner that enjoys seeing steam work. SSBN. Steam still provides the power, only the heat source has changed.
@homeryoung7436
@homeryoung7436 4 жыл бұрын
Enjoying this very much.
@danrabenhorst2549
@danrabenhorst2549 4 жыл бұрын
you work harder than anyone else on youtube and you have a full time job, keep up the good work
@scottvolage1752
@scottvolage1752 4 жыл бұрын
One step at a time. Keep up the good work.
@charlieromeo7663
@charlieromeo7663 4 жыл бұрын
I’m in the middle of scraping in my Hardinge HLVH. The compound, saddle, and most of the cross slide is complete, with the gib being the last to work. The bed plate is out for regrinding and I’m looking forward to the Rulon bonding on the saddle and tailstock. That Biax scraper looks like the bee’s knees, sure wish i could justify buying one. Keep up the good work. Scraping videos are always good to see.
@carloscordero4204
@carloscordero4204 4 жыл бұрын
really enjoying this planer restoration like the Monarch build ! But it'''s coming along can not wait too see it running !thanks Keith !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@tomberry6902
@tomberry6902 4 жыл бұрын
I've had a few videos pop up on my feed where guys are using planers to tune up Bridgeport tables. Ya know? As nicely fit as your planer is, it's a real good candidate for jobs like this. Imagine the fun.
@chrisarmstrong8198
@chrisarmstrong8198 4 жыл бұрын
Usually on a dovetail slide only one flat face and the angled face make contact with the mating part. That may be why there was hardly any contact initially on the other flat face.
@sparkiekosten5902
@sparkiekosten5902 4 жыл бұрын
Looks like the dog has found the warmest part of the AC!
@bulletproofpepper2
@bulletproofpepper2 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing. Nice work.
@elsdp-4560
@elsdp-4560 4 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU...for sharing.
@SciPunk215
@SciPunk215 4 жыл бұрын
Good job. Moving forward !!
@bobvines00
@bobvines00 4 жыл бұрын
Keith, this project seems to be a snowball rolling down hill, picking up "momentum." I'm really looking forward to you using this planer to plane its table and future projects!
@TheAyrCaveShop
@TheAyrCaveShop 4 жыл бұрын
Getting closer to the finish line.. 👍
@garthbutton699
@garthbutton699 4 жыл бұрын
Here for the long haul,enjoy the content🙂
@nickyork8901
@nickyork8901 4 жыл бұрын
Been looking forward to this one.
@tomberry6902
@tomberry6902 4 жыл бұрын
I've had some videos pop up on my feed where guys are using planers to tune up Bridgeport tables. Ya know? As nicely fit up as your planer is, it could be a good candidate for jobs like this. Imagine the fun.
@chrisretusn
@chrisretusn 4 жыл бұрын
Oh boy. Another planer video.
@NoelBarlau
@NoelBarlau 4 жыл бұрын
Great stuff, Keith! Thanks for sharing. I'm still trying to find time to finish that 7" South Bend shaper. Don't judge me, it's only been 3 years... ;)
@KPearce57
@KPearce57 4 жыл бұрын
Won't be long now she'll be up and running.
@francoiscandela2586
@francoiscandela2586 4 жыл бұрын
Great video as usual ! :) I think it would be interesting to take a picture of the part between every pass with a camera mounted at a fixed angle. That way you could do a small timelapse of the whole scraping process and we could see the bluing pattern evolve. Cheers
@thomaschandler8036
@thomaschandler8036 3 жыл бұрын
I have watched every episode of the job, enjoy learning new things. I was wondering, because you have a one man shop and pushing the gantry crane around, would it help if you had a bar of some kind that would go all the way across from one side of frame to the other with flat pieces of metal welded on the bar that would fit over the sides of the legs of the crane. This way, you could push from the middle of the bar and it would move the crane straight. Just a thought.
@howardhiggins9641
@howardhiggins9641 3 жыл бұрын
Surprisingly difficult piece to scrape considering it is comparatively such so little surface area. Did manufacturers back then contemplate sacrificial parts ? I would doubt it, but this part did need to be strong, but light at the same time.
@TgWags69
@TgWags69 4 жыл бұрын
I know you mentioned it, but what was the process of making sure the flat side was parallel to the dovetail and gib surfaces? Did you measure it on the surface plate or while you have it on the machine?
@gregfeneis609
@gregfeneis609 4 жыл бұрын
6:00 I think the high areas along the slot could be from T-bolt jacking. If it's a T-nut, and the bolt is a little too long, the bolt bottoms out and jacks up the edge of the slot. Or, as the T-nut wears it wedges in the slot, and over many years could jack that edge Edit: The top is at the left of the screen and the bottom is at the right. I think we're just seeing normal well worn machine parts. As the machine operates the clapper will push against the bottom and pull out at the top. This probably better explains the distortion near the slot in the top half, as well as, 7:30 after a few scrape cycles, not much contact at the bottom. 11:00 Maybe flake the gibs?
@aarondavidson1727
@aarondavidson1727 4 жыл бұрын
Could it have been mounted on a spin indexer and rotated under the grinding wheel to do it in one pass?
@kevingrime5772
@kevingrime5772 4 жыл бұрын
The indexer or rotary table has to have slackness to allow it to rotate maybe 2 thou. This would vary the height of the surface being ground depending on its position over the table. Not normally a problem when milling vertical squares hex's etc. The z axis is locked and the cutting is done in the same place over the table. Grinding and rotating the work would make it rock up and down as the wheel went across the work, like a seesaw. The amount of metal needed to be removed was below the accuracy that could be done by this method.The easiest ( not the cheapest) way would be to have them done on a bigger machine but would have to be sent away.
@WilliamTMusil
@WilliamTMusil 4 жыл бұрын
Hiya Keith
@bobw222
@bobw222 4 жыл бұрын
Were these machine pieces all scrapped in when they were originally manufactured?
@bobw222
@bobw222 4 жыл бұрын
@steve gale I understand that may be practice today. However this planer was manufactured 130 years ago. From the machining marks still I've seen on old machines, it looked like they were ground as flat as possible, but not scrapped in. He may have answered my question, in a way, when he mentioned seeing "the original planer marks" on the piece.
@bcbloc02
@bcbloc02 4 жыл бұрын
Josey like Baily even with time lapse can't tell they moved. LOL
@hinz1
@hinz1 4 жыл бұрын
2:50 is why you need a bcbloc sized lathe ;-)
@davidhtims
@davidhtims 4 жыл бұрын
Keith, how do you control parallel and square to the cross slide?
@brucefelger4015
@brucefelger4015 4 жыл бұрын
Philmont!
@prinzeugenvansovoyen732
@prinzeugenvansovoyen732 4 жыл бұрын
do you use manual scraping for finer work?
@realnutteruk1
@realnutteruk1 4 жыл бұрын
Lovely work as always... It would be nice to see how it was done before the age of electric tools.....
@xmachine7003
@xmachine7003 4 жыл бұрын
Labor intensive. Everything done by hand. That's why power tools evolved.
@MaverickandStuff
@MaverickandStuff 4 жыл бұрын
I noticed your stone was a little dirty. Soaking in some dish soap and putting it in the dishwasher does a good job at cleaning them.
@tempestnz1
@tempestnz1 3 жыл бұрын
Not parallelism, just parallel
@chrisjohnson4666
@chrisjohnson4666 4 жыл бұрын
Would a shaper work on this???
@grendalnewgod
@grendalnewgod 4 жыл бұрын
I was thinking, it'd nice to have a lazy-susan type scraping bench with locking positions. Then you could turn your work, on smaller parts, to a more comfortable position while working.
@robertbamford8266
@robertbamford8266 4 жыл бұрын
Captivating! The hand scraper looks suspiciously like a file. Would the tool you used to hand scrape have been similar to one used before mechanized hand scrapers?
@matthewhelton1725
@matthewhelton1725 4 жыл бұрын
Shop dog is supervising...
@gfarrell261
@gfarrell261 4 жыл бұрын
Why is the worn area (the ring) the high spot? shouldn't it be just the opposite?
@Blazer02LS
@Blazer02LS 4 жыл бұрын
The T-Nuts under those lips pull the metal up against the other surface so you see more wear.
@clydecessna737
@clydecessna737 4 жыл бұрын
I'm the first to say terrific!
@WireWeHere
@WireWeHere 4 жыл бұрын
You've barely scraped the surface.
@mikeysgarage3697
@mikeysgarage3697 4 жыл бұрын
If it's 10" across and you only have 8" of cross travel on the surface grinder, could you not mount it on a rotary table and grind it in a circular fashion, thus only needing 5" of travel?
@LambertZero
@LambertZero 4 жыл бұрын
Yeah, you can do thing like that. If you're at Suburban Tool Inc., you can even do something like that kzfaq.info/get/bejne/edmElbpy2pbPXaM.html Which is fun, and as a matter of fact you wouldn't even need 5" of travel.
@littleworkshopofhorrors2395
@littleworkshopofhorrors2395 4 жыл бұрын
Don't forget the corners make it wider, 10 inch square is 14 ish corner to corner, can the rotary table be offset enough?
@Brok3nC4rrot
@Brok3nC4rrot 4 жыл бұрын
@@littleworkshopofhorrors2395 however, you are rotating the part, therefore you only have to have 1 radius-worth of travel, not 1 diameter-worth. You only need to move it 7ish inches to cover the full 14ish inches corner to corner
@littleworkshopofhorrors2395
@littleworkshopofhorrors2395 4 жыл бұрын
@@Brok3nC4rrot absolutely, but the rotary table will be hanging off the side of the mag chuck.
@Brok3nC4rrot
@Brok3nC4rrot 4 жыл бұрын
@@littleworkshopofhorrors2395 Ah. I see your point.
@colin8653
@colin8653 4 жыл бұрын
I understand the point of scrapping but i not see why that pice needed scraping as it is moved to certain point and locked there same as the uprights and the crossmember probably they would have been sufficient but i am not a machinist and i will happily be told why the scraping is needed to be done but good video any why
@MrCrankyface
@MrCrankyface 4 жыл бұрын
It's scraped to make sure you have maximum amount of contact between the pieces. It makes for a more solid/rigid machine, even if the part is locked in with bolts.
@williamdodd8660
@williamdodd8660 4 жыл бұрын
If you were machining the top of an typical engine block (a horizontal surface) with a single point cutter, it would have to feed over a certain ammount before each stroke of the machine. The piece he is working on, the “saddle,” would feed over that ammount before each stroke. If it doesn’t move in a straight line (it DOES move when the machine is running) a plane surface is not produced. The clapper box/saddle joint is scraped for what the first commenter said. I simply used an engine block as an example.
@Zerostar369
@Zerostar369 4 жыл бұрын
Great video Keith. Will the Monarch 10EE be up for restoration after you are done with the planer?
@markowen7164
@markowen7164 4 жыл бұрын
Thank goodness no scrapping. M
@aserta
@aserta 4 жыл бұрын
Keith, why did you say "interesting" when you saw the planer marks? Did you think they wouldn't be visible anymore based on the condition of the machine?
@MrPossumeyes
@MrPossumeyes 4 жыл бұрын
I think he said "Interesting" because they were a bit of a window into the past. And he found that interesting. 130 years ago! Ah, how the time passes...and now, here he is bringing some man's (wouldn't have been a woman's) machine back up to spec. Grant him the window.
@johnquinn3899
@johnquinn3899 4 жыл бұрын
I think you did a video on a scrapping class you mentored. Can I have the title of that video? Thank you Keith.
@a.bakker64
@a.bakker64 4 жыл бұрын
John Quinn No, I am not Keith. Check this one out: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/b7ydeJuQ1KnZZ3k.html
@joev2654
@joev2654 4 жыл бұрын
Keith would you be able to help me find some planer poppets I have a pratt whitney planer I use thanks
@phrozenwun
@phrozenwun 4 жыл бұрын
2:56 If only there were a machine that could make nice flat surfaces on large pieces of metal, perhaps by a scraping action in a plane. If only ;-)
@july8xx
@july8xx 4 жыл бұрын
The problem that I see developing is he is scraping away the original reference to the level of the support area complicating the scraping process and making the areas to mate larger than the original specifications. I think what h should do is mount the piece in the Monarch and back cut the non mating surfaces so the mating surfaces are raised again. Then he would only have two one half inch surfaces to scrape and match. I love to watch his scraping work but he can get tunnel vision sometimes.
@ZaphodHarkonnen
@ZaphodHarkonnen 4 жыл бұрын
DOGGIE!
@markowen7164
@markowen7164 4 жыл бұрын
Ho by the way I'm from Newhaven. East Sussex. England. M
@davidstreeter9426
@davidstreeter9426 4 жыл бұрын
It seems to me that you are putting this machine in better shape than when it left the factory. I just don't think that they would have put the time into it once it was acceptable according to the standards at the time.
@williamdodd8660
@williamdodd8660 4 жыл бұрын
He is. He’s said so in another video. For a hobby shop the “why?” doesn’t really come into the picture.
@williamdodd8660
@williamdodd8660 4 жыл бұрын
steve gale It seems entirely possible that he simply didn’t show it. I don’t know which face you’re refering to.
@williamdodd8660
@williamdodd8660 4 жыл бұрын
steve gale In that case I missed it. I see him blue the surface plate and check the largest face against it, and I see him blue the “cross rail” (scraped true in other videos) and check the other bearing surfaces against it.
@williamdodd8660
@williamdodd8660 4 жыл бұрын
steve gale I think it was pretty close to begin with, and he often omits showing repeat passes over a surface. Is it correct that the quality of scraping is judged by the number of points of contact per square inch (providing a good standard is used to check against)?
@williamdodd8660
@williamdodd8660 4 жыл бұрын
steve gale I’m no expert, but I suspect “standard practice” covers a variety of methods, depending on the context (joint type, the machine’s intended use, the country, the period of manufacture, etc.). Percent coverage sounds like it could be another way of specifying the same thing (points per square inch) as it seems more points per square inch would give better coverage. I believe he’s going to “frost” the surfaces in another video.
@afnDavid
@afnDavid 4 жыл бұрын
Doggie! :-)
@briansmith1514
@briansmith1514 4 жыл бұрын
It is too bad that you could not have done a test prior to the rebuild and scraping to see if all the work you have put in made a substantial difference.
@ctjctj2
@ctjctj2 4 жыл бұрын
I'm unsure of why the front of the cross slide saddle needed any work. The clapper mounts to that. The tool is held in a lantern style holder. The amount of work that went into making sure that the lantern style tool post was "exactly perpendicular" to the cross slide seems excessive. The work on the dovetail and surfaces on the back does make sense as they are going to be moving and need the oil retaining capabilities of flaking. It just seems like way to much work in order to deal with the positioning of a tool cutter that is going to be hand ground and adjusted by eye for contact. The ways of my lathe are scraped. The cross slide and compound slide are scraped. They need to be accurate. If my ways are not accurate then the tool moves in and out, up and down as the tool moves from left to right. If the compound is not square, then I can end up with a convex or concave surface when I face of something. But the top of the compound where the tool post mounts? That was machined, not ground, not scarped. It would not surprise me if there was a few thousands of difference from one side of the compound to the other side of the tool post mounting slot. It doesn't matter with my quick change tool post and it mattered even less when it was a lantern style
@paulcopeland9035
@paulcopeland9035 4 жыл бұрын
You don't need to be "sure". This is how he wants it and he is going to make it that way.
@jdmccorful
@jdmccorful 4 жыл бұрын
Interestiing tedious work.
@kokodin5895
@kokodin5895 4 жыл бұрын
dang, every time you do that i wonder how much adjustment for wear might be in such old machine, because every time you scrape a thing or two you are removing material i wonder how much off the oryginal specs that machien already is
@Blazer02LS
@Blazer02LS 4 жыл бұрын
Doesn't matter so much on a planer because of the way it works. All of the travel ranges are adjustable so any wear isn't really an issue. The biggest things are, carriage being level and flat, table being flat and the two of them mating so there is no vertical deviation as the table moves on the carriage. Next is the tool holder travel on the bridge, it need to be parallel and at a true right angle as it traverses the table. The rest is all done by the person operating the machine.
@williambixby4108
@williambixby4108 4 жыл бұрын
Keith has the original specs and is well within them.
@MatthewTinker-au-pont-blanc
@MatthewTinker-au-pont-blanc 4 жыл бұрын
Why not fly cut it on the mill?
@MF175mp
@MF175mp 4 жыл бұрын
Surface grinding in 2 passes would be flatter and better but even that isn't good enough for Keith
@MatthewTinker-au-pont-blanc
@MatthewTinker-au-pont-blanc 4 жыл бұрын
@@MF175mp I know, fly cutting is great prep for scraping!!
@5tr41ghtGuy
@5tr41ghtGuy 4 жыл бұрын
Ultimately it needs to be scraped in. It looks like the part was close enough when Keith started scraping. If there had been a lot of wear then milling first would be appropriate.
@MF175mp
@MF175mp 4 жыл бұрын
@@5tr41ghtGuy that part stays still all the time when operating, I can't even imagine how it could have wore down much
@Landrew0
@Landrew0 4 жыл бұрын
I guess I'll never understand the appeal of scraping.
@brucebellinger9783
@brucebellinger9783 4 жыл бұрын
Interesting videos but the scraping videos are becoming a bit too much, at least in this viewer's eyes. I'd like to see more variety.
@charlesxix
@charlesxix 4 жыл бұрын
Fast forward works overtime.
@chrisbaker3844
@chrisbaker3844 4 жыл бұрын
You are right fast forward does work
@JohnDoe-ot7wv
@JohnDoe-ot7wv 4 жыл бұрын
Last year I was fired because I scraped the ways of a very expensive lathe after-work hours.🥺
@OCT566
@OCT566 4 жыл бұрын
Simply watch another vid. Solved
@williamdodd8660
@williamdodd8660 4 жыл бұрын
John Doe Was it they didn’t want them scraped, you did a bad job, or you just weren’t supposed to do it then?
@teestees1115
@teestees1115 4 жыл бұрын
love your videos but let up on the scraping
@williambixby4108
@williambixby4108 4 жыл бұрын
Mr R updates his channel. This is what has been done throughout the week in the refurbishment of this machine. Are you asking he stop updating? There is no putting time on fast forward even for us living in the "Now Generation."
@markowen7164
@markowen7164 4 жыл бұрын
Ho no not more scrapping please. M
@isbcornbinder
@isbcornbinder 4 жыл бұрын
I think you have "milked" this planer thing too far. It is time to move on to something else. I can't watch this.
@williambixby4108
@williambixby4108 4 жыл бұрын
Is someone forcing you to watch? I watch because I enjoy the lessons Keith is teaching.
@paulcopeland9035
@paulcopeland9035 4 жыл бұрын
You are free to go watch other "free" KZfaq content as much as you wish. No one is forcing the issue. Be gone!
@milantrcka121
@milantrcka121 4 жыл бұрын
Dont!
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