Can you guys make a podcast about cards that are just barely unplayable in cEDH that you wish was playable?

you say pyroblast feels bad as a dead card in hand if you sit down at a table with no blue, i say sitting down at a table with no blue is already a win.

Pyroblast has clause "...if it is blue." This means you can actually cast it to counter a non-blue spell or target a non-blue permanent (so add to storm count) but the spell will do nothing when it resolves. Red Elemental Blast requires the spell or permanent to be blue to be able to legally cast it/target.

In the Tymna/Jeska deck, Path to Exile is mainly run over Swords as a way to shuffle your deck (by targeting one of your own creatures) in case Bolas' Citadel gets stuck with a land on top. Citadel is also why the deck plays Pyroblast instead of REB (as you can cast Pyroblast on anything even if it's not blue).

The existence of Path and Trophy are why I will never cut all my basics.

Thanks again, great episode! I am wondering though: How mad is Tyler (and rightfully so) that you are saying "Pognify" instead of "Pongify"?

I love Cam pronouncing "pongify" differently every time 😂😂😂

Only other card I would put on this list is cut down. Gets rid of a lot of stax creatures for one mana at instant speed

How can this be a pod cast when there's only two players smh

It's really great watching/listening to you guys with a totally unique perspective on cards that I've only ever seen in casual commander play. This has become my go-to podcast for cEDH!

Could yall imagine if Skyclave Apparition had Flash? Like, that would put it straight over the top for me. Snagging that U-Breach or any other 4cmc or less combo piece at instant speed with a more permanent removal ability would be SO freaking bonkers. If commander legends released a whole cycle of 3cmc Flash creatures with some type of upside for you/downside for all opponents, Skyclave Apparition would've been an insane white representative just if it had Flash. It wouldve been even crazier as a Grasp of Fate on a stick, which is arguably more likely because Opp Agent AND Hullbreacher both shut down entire game mechanics in one-sided ways. I'm just saying, that would be a fun cycle to design and Skyclave Apparition would be a peak tier cedh staple imo.

I feel like a tier list might help with these segments

What about gilded drake? Personally think it's one of the best removal spells in blue

I wish people would talk about force of despair more. I think it's really underplayed. It's a pet card for me true. And if you draw it the turn after someone pops off that feels bad but it can be a board wipe if someone pops off or even just plays one creature that is super menacing and you take care of it for free.

You can't change the modes of a spell once it's placed on the stack. Pyroblast differs from REB in that it can target a nonblue spell/permanent, but only counters/destroys that target *IF* it is blue.

Just found this channel, really digging it so far

Great vid fellas. Pechko here on my alt account. I think it is important to remember that Path can pressure a player who recently tutored something to the top of their deck. If they want the land? The lose the tutored card. If they want the tutor- it becomes a Exile removal spell without an upside for your opponent!

Interesting take on Pongify, Rapid and Forbidden Orchard. Giving an opponent a creature is sometimes what you >want

I think these videos would be so great if you had a visual tier ranking Infographic. That way, you could give a letter ranking to each spell, and then sort each letter grade by best to worse. Could make it easier for audience to follow along.

In mono R i value Rending Volley more than bolt. It's more specific but still hits a lot of stuff and uncounterable is big.

Also my other favorite part of Boseiju, it plays through rule of law effects.

I'd highly reccomend having some visual representation of the tier list in the video which updates as you debate :). Otherwise, awesome vid!

You should have broken the category into artifact/enchantment removal, and then a different category for creatures, and maybe a separate category for any permanent removal.

One of things with pongify as well is that I think you have to compare it to Gilded Drake. Both give your opponent an attacking option but the value you can get from stealing a card is worth way more than 1 extra mana and flying.

That was a great intro, adequate promotion. I rate that intro a 17 out of 6, better than Chain of Vapor.

Wild Magic surge is a great option for red stuff especially in mono red or lower color combinations, it can get rid of one annoying stax piece that is stopping you the most.

Really interesting how the absence of EDH popular Reality Shift (2 Mana, hits only creatures, manifests top) in a conversation with room for Pongify, Hybridization, Resculpt, through Wild Fire Magic to Chaos Warp and Beast Within kinda tells a bit about cEDH itself. Nice!

IMO regarding of Chaos Warp and Wild Magic Surge comparison. I have heard a lot of time these 2 being compared, but I think they are completely different cards, tho the effects seem so similar. The pro of WMS is that it’s 1 mana less than Chaos Warp. And that’s it. WMS destroys a permanent, so it doesnt dodge indestructible and also it puts the card in graveyard. And worst of all it GUARANTEES the flip to something else after destroying the permanent. Chaos warp on the other hand gets rid of absolutely anything by shuffling it in, and yes, it has that statistically microscopic chance to flip back into what you just shuffled, but besides that it flips the top card of the library, just that. And if it is not a permanent it keeps that card on top and doesnt give your opponent the return! Even worse, it gives everyone info about the next draw of that player which is now kept on top! Chaos warp is very underrated card I think

Surprised how high dismember is as I never see it played, but your reasoning seemed pretty sound. Would love to see a video on which decks you think are the hardest and easiest to pilot well in CEDH. Personally I think tayam looks incredibly difficult to pilot well

Wow. I would love to hear you guys do this list again. I would really enjoy hearing cam justify lightning bolt being better than path in the current meta

hey, I don't comment much ( on any vidoes ) and I just wanted to say that I really enjoy your videos. They genuinely make my day better. In a world of negativity you may not hear this enough but thank you for your hard work and creatively

you guys got some good stuff lately, trying to better with my mana 2 :p

I had a game where I went to 3 on an ad-nausium, started breaching, went for a thassas, fought through a counter war on an endurance then got lightning bolted! 😂 lot of text here but I got to give my opponent props for the well timed bolt.

I think you missed some like cut down, solitude, maybe even anguished unmaking but overall great

Lethal Scheme can also be a free black removal spell that hits all creatures (and also hits planeswalkers) and is card draw. Even for 1 or 2 mana, it can be pretty fantastic.

I like how with skyclave you debated putting it under bolt and rolic. It fought its way up

Somewhat revenant thing about boseju and abrupt decay: They cannot be deflecting swatted back towards your own permanent.

So sad to see Fatal Push not here

You talked about resculpt but not reality shift which I think is better only Hits creatures but it can counter tutors vamp, enlighten, or worldly, imp seal

With how prominent "The One Ring" has become in cEDH, I think Resculpt has been my favorite inclusion to some of my decks.

REB and Pyroblast pitch to furry which makes it a lot better sometimes

Lightning bolt is a win con in krark/sakashima

I play path over swords in my polyfodder decks. Turning a rograkh or a yoshimaru into ramp/fixing can actually be really good

You can also blink skyclave in Emiel.

if you are even considering hidro/blue elemental blast, you should consider Despark and Anguised Unmaking even over the Beast/Gift/Chaoswarp, also Fracture and Drown in the Loch has seen a good place into some decks (mostly mill decks)

1.) Swords to Plowshares 2.) Assassin's Trophy 3.) Pongify /Rapid Hybridization 4.) Force of Vigor 5.) Reality Shift 6.) Nature's Claim 7.) Abrupt Decay 8.) Path to Exile 9.) Beast Within 10.) Chaos Warp 11.) Lightning Bolt

well, we are gonna need 8-10 removals for the new orc Bowmaster =P

Feed the swarm is a sorcery which I think is super relevant to this conversation. It’s a lot worse because it’s not an instant. Also, I don’t think I agree with you guys about path to exile. I’ve seen a lot of gameplay recently, where they can’t find a basic land. So many good 3-5 colour decks in the format right now that don’t run basics. Path right now is usually just 1 mana exile target creature with no downside. Sure there is an argument that is a meta call, but I think it should be higher than you guys put it

I personally love cards that have flexibility, even at the cost of 1 more mana ( 2 cmc slot). I get it a lot of decks are very snobby towards a 2 cmc spell but I like Abrade and Return to Nature a lot.

hey guys, what about suspend and slip out the back? could one of you maybe tell where you would put those on the list? edit: also sapphire charm, never seen anyone using it but I like it.. and where did the numbers, like on boseiju and dismember come from?

You cannot change the modes on either. The difference is Pyroblast can target non-blue things. Where red blast cannot

Also iirc, skyclave works lke O.Ring as well, that if you blink it with the exile trigger on the stack, since the card leaves play, the 2nd line of text triggers but does nothing, and when it comes back it exiles something else under it, and the original target is just exiled permanently.... correct me if im wrong tho XD

0:50 Did you ever do that Wraths podcast? I can't find it.

Could we get a podcast about your normal ratios of cards in cedh decks (how many single target removal, how many wraths, how many card advantage, e.t.c) and how that compares to casual ratios?

I have beginning to love cathartic pyre alot lately, what do you guys think about it?

You can cast Pyro/Hydroblast spells when you have priority, regardless of a valid target or not if you need to add a spell to the stack. The Elemental Blast spells can't be cast unless they have a valid target. And I think I know what Cam was thinking about... You could cast something in response to a Pyroblast that takes control of target spell and lets you choose new targets for the spell. E.G. If you took control of a REB, you could only redirect it to legal blue targets... and if the only blue target is yours, you can't stop it from targeting you with that redirect spell. But if you took control of a Pyroblast, you could redirect it to ANY permanent - and it fizzles if that permanent was not blue. Hope the example helps!

Needed generous gift in that 2-3 group in the beginning

My Legacy player brain hearing shade being thrown at Hydroblast and yelling "But it answers Blood Moon and Minsc and Boo!"...

The biggest problem with Wild Magic Surge is its ability to remove enchantment RoL effects since it often just turns them into other RoL effects.

Suspend is used as a removal application far more often than bounce. Still worth talking about it this category.

I would personally put abrade higher on this list, just because it does hit artifacts which helps out with a ton of those stax pieces you need to get rid of to win. I can think of one competitive deck that I could see running blue blast/hydro, although this is DEFINITELY QUITE far off meta, and that deck is Baral, Chief of Compliance. Simply because he does care so much about countering, and these are one-mana counterspells that hit some pretty major things (dockside, breach, swat, kraum, kiki, winota, to name a few). Also curious, where would you guys rate anguished unmaking? I know there are plenty of cards that are better, but I personally run anguished unmaking because of its instant-speed exiling removal. This was in my Tivit deck, which was pretty heavy on the control side of things so I don’t know where I’d put it outside of that, but I’m still curious what you guys think.

I don't play cedh so this is mere conjecture but would it be relevant that skyclave apparition is a creature and therefore can't normally be played at instant speed?

Just throwing my two cents out there. Remember Generous Gift gets rid of ANY non land permanent! Which I think makes it relevant sometimes.

When do we get your thoughts on suspend? :D

In mono red is the extra mana on Chaos Warp really that much worse than guaranteeing to give your opponent a permanent with Wild Magic Surge?

The only one I disagree being quite so high is skyclavr, I think you forgot that it's sorcery speed while all the rest are instant, which makes a world of difference. I would put it either 9 or 10. Otherwise looks perfect

Some sleepers: Rending Volley (bye Winota!), End the Festivities, Cut Down, Natural State, & Fracture.

I still like abrade, it's good enough for most stax creatures and hits artifacts, not as many artifact combos running around right now but still enough.

What about reality shift? It is one more mana, and leaves them with a 2/2, BUT, if looped, it mills them out and kills them like bolt does. It's the win con in my tasigur list, works great in sultai Timetwister loops

Nice list. I think the only other card that warrants some consideration for this list might be Solitude

I think id like to removal broken down by color. like 10 best black, 10 best white etc etc

What you think about witness protection?

I'm on chaos warp over wild magic in mono red to deal with enchantments. Getting blind obedience off the board doesn't help if another stax enchant comes out to stop my combo

For the rogsi deck isn't 4 mana a lot for ad Nas?

Thoughts on solitude?

I really like Vanishing Verse, hits a ton of combo pieces and stax pieces. Plus it's an exile effect.

Probably a modern player's bias, but I really like fury in non-Ad Naus lists, it can be single target or remove multiple stax pieces and it can be free a lot

Even though Winota doesn't seem as prominent as it once was, I can't top ten a removal spell that doesn't deal with her, so Abrupt Decay and Bolt I don't see making it for me. (I consider Reb and Pyro more as counters than removal). So add Path and... I dunno, maybe keep Abrupt, lol.

I died. Cam's mic when it turns on

For pyroblast and redirect effects: redirects only change the target of the effect, so if pyroblast is already targeting a spell, the effect can only be redirected to another spell, and vice versa with permanents

These are great videos, and the information are great to get, but I wonder if you couldn't do something more robust than a simple list. I wonder if maybe a four quadrant chart would be a better option? Just a thought. Great video anyway guys!

Chaos warp sometimes is all you can use against blood moon.

Considering how often Rhystic study will just end up winning a player the game, I think Natures claim type effects are underrated here. People also forget how impactful sniping a sol ring or a crypt can be. Slow down the naus, slow down the winota, snipe the breach... theres a lot of utility in enchantifact removal.

Dismember is fucking great, one of my favourite removals ever, and its really good in cedh even if it seems a little sus lol

I might of missed it, but what about March of otherworldly lights

Resculpt gets a couple points for hitting “The One Ring”

Play to Win, the only place where you can hear the phrase, "I think it's better than I think it is." 😅❤

Captain's Log: Video #9,874,501 My notebook has become so full of top #10 lists, and my eyes hurt from reading every single card I own. I fear I may be losing my sight and sanity! Hopefully I can play MAGIC with braille in the sanitarium.

How about Tear Asunder? Probably too expensive, but it does exile.

What about multi-format all star ichor slick?

Somehow wild magic surge was the card that was mentioned like 5 times but never was on the screen (and it's like the only one I didn't know) Just a little thing, otherwise great job)

I'm curious about people's thoughts on cutdown

we're not!! talking about wraths!!

the problem with feed the swarm is that it is a sorcery... that sucks

Im down for reality shift way more than most people i think, i play alot of mono blue tho.

What you do is run both pongify and lightning bolt so you can pongify something then bolt the beast Genius

My biggest pet card for removal is void rend I just love the card

Very surprised to not see Path in the top 10. It’s gotta be better than that if people are considering it over Swords in some cases

I feel like Soul Partition belongs somewhere on the top 10 list for sure

I feel like you guys missed some highly played creatures that are removal spells like solitude or cathar commando. Even Fury might be good enough to be on the list. Would love to hear yalls thoughts on them too! Otherwise, great video guys!