Pope Francis on Blessing Same-Sex Couples: A Protestant Response

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Truth Unites

Truth Unites

Күн бұрын

In this video Gavin Ortlund offers a Protestant response to "Fiducia Supplicans," Pope Francis' declaration allowing for priests to bless same-sex couples.
NOTE: at 00:18 I meant to say "couples," not "unions." That was a misspeak.
Read the declaration here: press.vatican.va/content/sala...
Truth Unites (www.truthunites.org) exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 - Introduction
01:08 - The Problem With Pope Francis' Declaration
08:54 - Is Concern Uncharitable?
13:03 - Summing Up

Пікірлер: 1 400
@TruthUnites
@TruthUnites 6 ай бұрын
NOTE: at 00:18 I meant to say "couples," not "unions."
@aldenrodzik3011
@aldenrodzik3011 6 ай бұрын
6:45 I disagree with your claims about ambiguity in the document, but you don't seem to be disingenuous because you seem to be charitable and to be using the terms correctly. I really think that you could further your understanding of this particular case by watching what Reason and Theology (Michael Lofton's channel) says on this. Watching his content about it really helped me to further my understanding of it. He did a live where he broke it down line by line and a response to Father James Martin's actions in blessing such a couple. I think these would be the most helpful. The document is actually more clear than it first appears to be and, thus, it doesn't serve as good evidence for your argument. It's not that it's unclear, it's that there are bad actors who will twist it.
@truthisbeautiful7492
@truthisbeautiful7492 6 ай бұрын
​@@aldenrodzik3011why do you think lofton's interpretation is right rather then those Roman African bishops and Kazah bishops?
@joekey8464
@joekey8464 6 ай бұрын
Fiducia Supplicans - 5. "The church does not have the power to impart blessings on union of persons of the same sex" 20. "One who asks for a blessing show himself to be in need of God’s saving presence in his life and one who asks for a blessing from the Church recognizes the latter as a sacrament of the salvation that God offers. To seek a blessing in the Church is to acknowledge that the life of the Church springs from the womb of God’s mercy and helps us to move forward, to live better, and to respond to the Lord’s will."
@aldenrodzik3011
@aldenrodzik3011 6 ай бұрын
@@truthisbeautiful7492 Well, he's rather neutral compared to these bishops who have very strong agendas. He also breaks this down line by line and offers thorough explanation. He is also critical of both liberals and conservatives and his interpretation seems to lack any political spin.
@bigbearn1383
@bigbearn1383 6 ай бұрын
Pray to St. Newman an ex protestants who speaks of the concept of development. It doesn't change the substance of the Truth Those who will take it too far will amswer to God. This pontificate does not clarify. It waits for the devils to manisfy themselves. Priests who violates 5. 11 and 39 are not following the rules. This declaration stops the Germain Bishops in their tracks . As a protestants do you have the historical evidence of your claims. So , the Holy Spirit got it wrong until the protestants came along. Seriously.
@British_loyalist
@British_loyalist 6 ай бұрын
You’re one of my faith heroes, Gavin. Much love from a Presbyterian 😁
@pamphilus3652
@pamphilus3652 6 ай бұрын
Probably shouldnt make men your heroes. Especially living men, wait a few centuries to double check
@soonsuicidal
@soonsuicidal 5 ай бұрын
What is that?
@codystanfield6243
@codystanfield6243 3 ай бұрын
A biblical Christian.
@mattmalcolm534
@mattmalcolm534 6 ай бұрын
As a Catholic, thanks for this clear & concise video on a heart wrenching topic. I find your views charitable and sincere, and it's unfortunate that people would accuse you of being disingenuous. God bless
@thomasc9036
@thomasc9036 6 ай бұрын
What Pope did was worse? If the Church can "bless" those who commit sodomy, then can it bless pedophilia or bestiality?
@wolfthequarrelsome504
@wolfthequarrelsome504 6 ай бұрын
So, Gavin has no agenda.
@samueljennings4809
@samueljennings4809 6 ай бұрын
@stingingnettle9726 That comparison isn’t really fitting here. That would be more if an antitheist commented on Christian faith. You are brothers in Christ, you shouldn’t be so careless to make references like that.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
@@wolfthequarrelsome504 Uh yes he has an agenda. Everyone has an agenda wolf.
@user-si7iu7sz8o
@user-si7iu7sz8o 6 ай бұрын
@@wolfthequarrelsome504 I agree the video started out with him, talking about the blessing document, but quickly led into him criticizing the need for a magisterium. But he says he’s not being disingenuous. Catholic or not he was definitely being disingenuous.
@NowakLaw
@NowakLaw 6 ай бұрын
Very well articulated, Gavin. As a Catholic I found your analysis of Fiducia Supplicans very balanced and reasonable. You have an excellent mind and obviously love Jesus and the Truth.
@ogloc6308
@ogloc6308 6 ай бұрын
based catholic
@From_Protestant_to_Christian
@From_Protestant_to_Christian 6 ай бұрын
I'm a huge critic of Gavin but he's 100% right here. As Catholics we need to humbly accept that we have an evil Pope.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
I didn't find it balanced at all. HE attacks a very clearly laid out document by the vatican and completely ignores that protestant churches based on a sola scripture premise have lead themselves into error by actually embracing gay marriage and same sex unions. HE claims the magesterium is leading to confusion and this coming from a guy that supports sola scripture which as a doctrine IS LEADING TO CONFUSION FOR PROTESTANTS. THINK about it bro!
@sketchbook1
@sketchbook1 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668it is not Sola Scriptura which is causing Protestants confusion is these issues- all of the Protestant groups allowing for same sex unions do so AGAINST the clear teaching of Scripture. Indeed, those groups themselves generally don’t actually claim to believe in Sola Scriptura, or even the infallibility of Scripture.
@jesusjitzandfish8415
@jesusjitzandfish8415 6 ай бұрын
So stop being Catholic then.
@IAmTheSlink
@IAmTheSlink 6 ай бұрын
It isn't just the text of the document, it's the environment it's being received into. Earlier this year, German bishops voted to endorse same sex unions. A few months ago a German archbishop said that he would not discipline any priests who bless couples that cannot be sacramentally married. It is naive, at best, to think that such people won't take this document as papal approval of their agenda and push forward with it.
@kerry8506
@kerry8506 6 ай бұрын
The document was in part in response to the German bishops. That’s why it affirmed the true definition of marriage so powerfully and forbade the blessing of sin. It is meant to counter and stop the German bishops. And if they follow the directives in the document, they will stop what they’re doing.
@joekey8464
@joekey8464 6 ай бұрын
Pope Francis shut them down with this document. Fiducia Supplicans 5. The church does not have the power to impart blessings on union of persons of the same sex. I hope this clarifies all the misinformation out there.
@kerry8506
@kerry8506 6 ай бұрын
@@joekey8464 Exactly, the document is a powerfully worded correction to the German bishops, not an approval.
@doriepierre8365
@doriepierre8365 6 ай бұрын
​@@kerry8506I appreciate the context you've given but I still feel the wording of the document is kinda muddy. Why use words like "innovate" if they're trying to clarify longstanding doctrine? And why not cite the Germans specifically if that's who they're trying to address? Maybe that's just not how things are done but it just seems confusing to "subtweet" instead of just directly calling out the people who need to be called out. Forgive me if I spoke out of turn but had to give my two cents that no one asked for lol!
@kerry8506
@kerry8506 6 ай бұрын
@@doriepierre8365 Pope Francis has been confronting the German bishops more directly in other letters. But, sure. That might have been a good idea. On the other hand, that might have appeared to narrow the document’s scope. I think the whole church needed the clarity, not just the Germans. I’m not sure what is meant by innovate. The words broaden, enrich, and development were also used. Development usually refers to a broadening and enriching of doctrines while always remaining consistent with past teachings. This is an age old practice in the church to delve ever deeper into the inexhaustible doctrines of the Church in order to gain greater understanding. Maybe that’s so that is meant by, “innovative.” I try to be docile and unsuspicious and assume the interpretation that conforms to changeable doctrines when I approach magisterial documents.
@yentran475
@yentran475 6 ай бұрын
I am a Roman Catholic and I agree with you It is slippery slope.
@Nick_Lamb
@Nick_Lamb 6 ай бұрын
Your channel has convinced me to be far more charitable to Roman Catholics than I was in the past, while giving me better arguments against it and making me more firm in my beliefs at the same time.
@torva360
@torva360 6 ай бұрын
Same. I think in part it's become easier to be compassionate to them now that I have these better answers. It feels less like a hostile relationship and more like being estranged siblings. I wish more pastors would teach in such a way that arms their congregations with the true so that they can be less reactive and more secure in their faith.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
@@torva360 I think relations between Catholics and protestantism will continue to be strained so long as certain lies are just repeated about Catholics i.e we worship Mary i.e we believe in a works based salvation (we don't). The confusion is definitely being caused by the protestant side of the aisle out of some weird fear their congregations will become Catholics if they knew what we actually believed.
@torva360
@torva360 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 I think you're attributing malice and conspiracy where there is none. Protestants accuse RCs of worshiping Mary not out of a fear of conversion, but because how RCs respond to Mary looks like worship to protestants. It's a conflict of definitions and intent.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
​@torva360 there is no malice or conspiracy are you kidding me? Que up John MacArthur and others like him if you actually want to think their isn't any malice. Lol
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
​@torva360 would you like me to send you some fun KZfaq videos where you see famous protestant pastors spouting actual malice towards what Catholics believe and intentionally mis represent them? Would you like that? I can start with John MacArthur!😅
@ProfYaffle
@ProfYaffle 6 ай бұрын
Tomorrow morning! May the Lord grant you travelling mercies and protect your family especially over the next few weeks
@faadiallo2997
@faadiallo2997 6 ай бұрын
We've seen this happen too many times for Christians to simply be 'concerned' about this issue. Catholics (and Christians in general) need to condemn this trend to liberalize.
@captainmartin1219
@captainmartin1219 6 ай бұрын
Boiling a frog 🐸 my friend.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
This is not an attempt to liberalize the Catholic Church.
@captainmartin1219
@captainmartin1219 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 Of course you would say that froggy.🐸 Of course nothing is wrong. Is it me or is it getting a bit hot in here?
@7songsofthunder
@7songsofthunder 6 ай бұрын
Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
@joekey8464
@joekey8464 6 ай бұрын
The church will show perfect charity, but there red lines that the church will never cross..
@boliang
@boliang 6 ай бұрын
Our brother Gavin is a gift to the Body Of Christ (regardless of denominations). Love your channel !
@rhettaccardo8322
@rhettaccardo8322 6 ай бұрын
I am a lifelong Catholic. You are a fair & charitable man. I have read the document. It is a development in regards to our understanding of the nature of blessings. It categorizes blessings into 3 types (1. God to man 2. man to God 3. man to man) & explains how they differ from each other. I attend the Traditional Latin Mass and am not bothered by the document itself. The problem since Vatican II is always in the implementation of sound doctrine. Clergy often take liberties and are rarely disciplined for it.
@p.doetsch6209
@p.doetsch6209 6 ай бұрын
@@rhettaccardo8322 You should be bothered by the document. It is a blank check for the Gaystapo.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
@@NP-vk8de It is true that not everyone is a theologian. That does not mean the document is bad or false. It is not designed to be understood in the era of sound bytes or text messages.
@ChristTheTruth87
@ChristTheTruth87 6 ай бұрын
Hasn't modern times proved to you that that is the Eastern Orthodox Church and your side was the wrong side of the schism? Someone should respond to my comment.
@p.doetsch6209
@p.doetsch6209 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 You are misunderstanding the intended audience. This was not written for theologians. It was written for the average priest who is specifically not a theologian, and who will now say with a shrug that Pope Francis said it was ok to bless them. This will not be nuanced at all in practice, although the number of angels dancing on the head of this pin will be discussed ad nauseum.
@jwcrusader
@jwcrusader 6 ай бұрын
You're not being disingenuous. Not at all. I'm RCC and I agree with you. By the way, welcome to Nashville!
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
Go join his church if you agree with his ideas.
@BaronBomburst
@BaronBomburst 6 ай бұрын
Isn't it just a little bit strange that the Pope and Church of England both produce such similar guidance just days apart. Doesn't anyone else find that curious?
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
Maybe it's time to merge back into Catholicism.
@thomasc9036
@thomasc9036 6 ай бұрын
Maybe they are forming a same-sects union? :-)
@crushtheserpent
@crushtheserpent 6 ай бұрын
@@thomasc9036 That was quite funny :)
@Nolongeraslave
@Nolongeraslave 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 Maybe, so that both celebrate their great fall!
@samueljennings4809
@samueljennings4809 6 ай бұрын
@BaronBomburst I pray for GAFCON, that they may hold the line on the biblical worldview. May God have mercy on the Church of England, and may He expel the Freemasonry that has rotted there for decades (it’s an open secret).
@qazyman
@qazyman 6 ай бұрын
"A human institution claiming to be a divine institution." That is incredibly well said, an excellent point, and you have every right to make it. I was going to make a point about the traditional family, but I will simply say you make an excellent point and a strong argument. Thank you.
@johnbrion4565
@johnbrion4565 6 ай бұрын
If Jesus did in fact make a church in earth then it is a divine institution.
@qazyman
@qazyman 6 ай бұрын
@@johnbrion4565 - John 18:36 - Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world." Matthew 6:10 - "Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." I feel confident that's the Divine Institution. The thing is, a lot of people want to wield that power. But the deeper question. If Catholicism is a divine institution, why does it follow the world and slowly become more progressive?
@FirstnameLastname77777
@FirstnameLastname77777 6 ай бұрын
@@qazymanwell said
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
Yeah I found it flat out weird Gavin views all earthly Church institions as human and not divine. That's contradictory to the gospel.
@johnbrion4565
@johnbrion4565 6 ай бұрын
@@qazyman it’s one of the only ones that has not followed the world and become progressive. Firstly Gavin is misleading people. The document does not make it ok to bless gay unions. This is false and Gavin lead the video with that. Do you know how many Protestant and non denom churches are accepting blessing and conducting gay marriage? Pope Francis wants to reach out and shepherd these people and let them know they are welcome and God wants to draw them into his life. I agree the way to this is not through condemning the sin but by showing the love of God to them. The Catholic Church is very clear on this issue. Just read the catechism of the church for this. We believe Jesus created a church on earth. And that the people in it are not without sin but that the church is divine in the sense that is guided by the Holy Spirit and will not lead its members astray in matters of faith or teachings.
@Jackie.2025
@Jackie.2025 6 ай бұрын
I believe reading through the comments, proves what Gavin was saying. So many comments from Catholics and everyone views the document differently.
@robertlotzer7627
@robertlotzer7627 6 ай бұрын
Notice the statement from Father Martin “yesterday I was forbidden” yet “today I can” - that is a powerful change from potential (or non potential) to actual. So much for the superiority of a magisterium!
@opinionated2
@opinionated2 6 ай бұрын
Gavin, I am a baptized Catholic, and due to personal circumstances (abuse in my family by a well known member of a prominent movement within the church), my spouse and I are finding it difficult to remain Catholic. Your channel is helping us to reconcile our long held and cherished beliefs with a new way of thinking, thanks to you! A common complaint among Catholics faithful to the magisterium, since the beginning of Francis' pontificate, has been the ambiguity in his statements, which has twice lead to a group of Cardinals asking for clarification, referred to as a dubia, So, this is nothing new. Many Catholics have been hoodwinked into believing that "nothing has changed", since gays and those involved in irregular unions (couples living together without the benefit of a sacramental marriage), still can't participate in a Catholic wedding ceremony. Nothing could be farther from the truth. This is a clear move to undermine the institution of marriage, without formally changing church doctrine.
@kriegjaeger
@kriegjaeger 6 ай бұрын
And further, to what point? What is the purpouse of it? It can only be to appeal to the world. The world leads people to death and destruction while God leads them to life. One cannot have two masters.
@Parks179-h
@Parks179-h 6 ай бұрын
as a protestant baptist, I hope that you find the scriptures comforting in this time, friend! I wonder just how different you feel now, from what Luther felt in his day? May the Lord bless you and your family in this time!
@edwardman1742
@edwardman1742 6 ай бұрын
An older appeal to the worldly and undermining of the church came in the form of… “the church is not perfect and has problems, therefore I don’t need the church and I can be my own”. Thus protestantism was born. A result of the root sin of pride. Our faith can be a struggle at times, but you must remain true. Stay strong. See Trent Horn’s statement on the Ben Shapiro show re the same issue.
@mr.charlesharvey1582
@mr.charlesharvey1582 6 ай бұрын
I would highly encourage you to read the document for yourself.
@Parks179-h
@Parks179-h 6 ай бұрын
@@edwardman1742 a sad and woeful misrepresentation of what the reformers said that they were doing. Popes and counsels err. God’s word does not.
@jonnydoe85
@jonnydoe85 6 ай бұрын
If a prominent married member of a church was having an adulterous affair and walked into the church with his mistress on his arm and they both were blessed, this would be a scandal that would (and should) rock that local church. How is this any different?
@CartoonistDave
@CartoonistDave 6 ай бұрын
Nicely put!
@davidruth7096
@davidruth7096 6 ай бұрын
Exactly this. Further, if the excuse was something like “blessing what common good may still be found within a homosexual couple’s relationship and lives together. Cooperation, patience, self-sacrifice for another….” Just substitute adulterous couple for homosexual couple.
@saintejeannedarc9460
@saintejeannedarc9460 6 ай бұрын
This is exactly how I think of it. It says same sex couple and irregular unions. So an adulterous couple would also be an irregular union. Why not bless them too? This document leaves it wide open.
@musketmerve1436
@musketmerve1436 6 ай бұрын
It is not loving nor a blessing to cheer on and enable clearly detestable sinful behaviors. Francis is cheerfully rooting for a side in this matter, and is clearly chained to the losing team…
@kriegjaeger
@kriegjaeger 6 ай бұрын
There are only two directions; Towards or away from God. I don't think anyone really truly recognizes the full severity of Sin and we may not until we go to the Lord. But those who accomidate worldly behavior are cheering as people walk FROM God and into destruction.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
Nobody is cheering homosexual acts in the Catholic Church from the Papacy.
@JasonRobson-ig6nc
@JasonRobson-ig6nc 6 ай бұрын
The papacy maintains all homosexul acts are intrinsically disordered and are sins which cry out to heaven. The blessing is about saying that they can still repent and turn God and that we will show them kindness and mercy until they do or til they die in a state of unrepentant. What we aren't doing is saying God can't or isn't acting to try and reclaim them as his own.
@captainmartin1219
@captainmartin1219 6 ай бұрын
​@@JasonRobson-ig6nc Once again people are saying things to Catholics and they are not listening once again It would be nice if you could step back and actually consider what is being said. You have organizations promoting this as the Catholic church supporting gay relationships. You have gay groups promoting this as a step in the direction of the Catholic Church legitimizing homosexuality Obviously there is something wrong here
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
This document does not include blessing sin.
@rickgomez2885
@rickgomez2885 6 ай бұрын
"But let your statement 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and 'No,' 'No.' Anything more than these comes from evil." - Jesus, Matthew 5:37. The ambiguity of Francis's statement is telling.
@kriegjaeger
@kriegjaeger 6 ай бұрын
Astute observation!
@Chispaluz
@Chispaluz 6 ай бұрын
Did Jesus know when His second coming was?
@sia9907
@sia9907 6 ай бұрын
Going back to Christ's own words is the best remedy for confusion, imo. That's a helpful verse to bring up now.
@raphaelfeneje486
@raphaelfeneje486 6 ай бұрын
​@@Chispaluz Why does that matter??
@sia9907
@sia9907 6 ай бұрын
@@stingingnettle9726 who do you think sent out the press releases the media have been using to structure their stories?
@Rubberglass
@Rubberglass 6 ай бұрын
“It’s not a lack of compassion to commend the truth” Amen!
@durellteesdale7297
@durellteesdale7297 6 ай бұрын
Friends .Gavin nailed this on the head. He really did. U can’t be mad at him. We need serious response with his perspective from Catholics apologists . The gas lighting is getting old
@saintejeannedarc9460
@saintejeannedarc9460 6 ай бұрын
I already know of one of the apologists that a lot of Catholic like to follow on such matter. Michael Lofton is insisting this merely blesses the individuals in the same sex union, not the union. Then why have a special magisterial document issued, going on for pages about homosexual unions? This is the same way the Anglican church got gutted w/ liberalism. They inched toward it in increments. it wasn't one fell swoop. This is just the devil being subtle and many CAtholics insist, nope, never happen to us. There are warnings in the bible that it can happen to anyone. The church will be under increased onslaught. Even Paul said he always has to be on guard and not think he's fully arrived, otherwise he could get careless and fall.
@dcndrew_faithofourfathers
@dcndrew_faithofourfathers 6 ай бұрын
Thanks for this, Gavin. It is a confusing document that, if you squint hard enough, can possibly be read in an orthodox manner. But it also doesn’t have to be read that way, and there are parts that can be read in a heterodox manner. A further difficulty for Roman Catholics in this is that the document is magisterial, which, according to Lumen Gentium, is owed religious submission of intellect and will. A tough situation for conservative Roman Catholics.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
This isn't tough to submit to being a conservative catholic myself. Speaking for all conservative Catholics this is a nothing burger.
@KarstenArmstrong
@KarstenArmstrong 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668you certainly don’t speak for all conservative Catholics. In my interactions, most do not find this to be a nothing burger
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
@@KarstenArmstrong That's because most do not even look at this stuff. Hell, most of them do not even believe their own Catholic doctrines.
@braedenh6858
@braedenh6858 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 um. Maybe you missed the 'conservative' adjective there. Conservative Catholics do read and believe their own doctrines and that is exactly why this isn't a 'nothing burger' for them.
@Miatpi
@Miatpi 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 I don’t think you speak for all conservative Catholics either, but you do for me. When I read through the document I could only wonder what the fuss was all about.
@shawngillogly6873
@shawngillogly6873 6 ай бұрын
Well-stated. Further, I would contend, like Andy Stanley and Doug Wilson's comments on various issues: The Confusion is the point. They are speaking to be misunderstood.
@stevensesto7095
@stevensesto7095 6 ай бұрын
This why I’m leaving the RCC
@kikifiat5021
@kikifiat5021 6 ай бұрын
Don't!
@Jamric-gr8gr
@Jamric-gr8gr 6 ай бұрын
You should never leave the one true church that Jesus Christ founded. Although the magesterium is not perfect, it has reconizable authority. Popes do make imperfect judgement as history tells, but that doesn't undermine Catholicism in anyways.
@patriciaw4270
@patriciaw4270 6 ай бұрын
​@@Jamric-gr8grone and only true Church of Christ are people who are born again, believers sealed with Holy Spirit. They are Bride of Christ. They are Children of God.
@Jamric-gr8gr
@Jamric-gr8gr 6 ай бұрын
@@patriciaw4270 Well exactly...?
@patriciaw4270
@patriciaw4270 6 ай бұрын
@@Jamric-gr8gr so, how can Roman Catholic Church be the one true church if there are true believers who are born again and they are protestants...
@JohnBoyleJCL
@JohnBoyleJCL 6 ай бұрын
Thank you. I’m a Catholic priest and appreciate your concern and charity. Apart from your take on the papacy, the bodily assumption of Mary and the unicity of the Catholic Church, I agree with what you say concerning the problems of this papal document. In all things charity.
@bobtaylor170
@bobtaylor170 6 ай бұрын
May God bless you with courage, Father. You'll be needing it in the days ahead.
@JohnBoyleJCL
@JohnBoyleJCL 6 ай бұрын
@@bobtaylor170 Thank you for your prayers. Many of my parishioners are scandalized by this.
@JasonRobson-ig6nc
@JasonRobson-ig6nc 6 ай бұрын
Courage Father. His Holiness is a good man but not a savy politician and this does create some confusion, but not if we as catholics all unite and defend the orthodox positions in this document. My prayers for you parishioners, may their faith be eminently restored by their local father and shepherd.
@JohnBoyleJCL
@JohnBoyleJCL 6 ай бұрын
Thank you. @@JasonRobson-ig6nc
@mattmalcolm534
@mattmalcolm534 6 ай бұрын
@@JasonRobson-ig6nc "but not a savy politician" you don't become the leader of 1B Catholics without being a savvy politician. Francis and Fernandez knew full well the confusion and chaos this document would create. It was carefully written in such a way to offer boundary-pushing Germans an olive branch while being careful to avoid certain pitfalls.
@johnnychikko3800
@johnnychikko3800 6 ай бұрын
As a Catholic I agree with you. Liberalism has infiltrated the Church especially at the Top. Ambiguity is a cancer in any ideology. Now would I leave the “Boat”for reformed Calvinism or mainline Protestantism absolutely not as I am still not convinced of those truth claims but I do appreciate your disagreements and loving approach to the Catholic Church. We do have our internal problems to be sure :/. Merry Christmas!
@z_nytrom99
@z_nytrom99 6 ай бұрын
I'm very thankful for your ministry, it's a tremendous resource for helping me be better informed about these issues and be able to well-articulate Protestant concerns with the Roman church.
@mattboylan7318
@mattboylan7318 6 ай бұрын
Gavin. As a Catholic, I appreciate your channel and watch most of your videos. My wife is a reformed Protestant and I frequently use you to invoke charity in my heart towards her beliefs when I am at times frustrated. I also listen to you to ultimately attain a higher level of understanding of the truth. I just want to offer some advice regarding this specific topic that you can take or leave. I see that many theologians are rushing to make videos because this is a hot button topic right now. However, I think prudence might favor spending some time contemplating, speaking to others, and delaying any rush to judgment. After all, what is the rush? Complex topics like this are often difficult to reason out in only a few hours time. I suggest this because I have found myself rushing to different judgments in the past 24 hours trying to get my point across on X or in texts with friends only to hear a perspective that makes me think twice about my previous judgments. Either way, I believe that you are following your conscience and reasoning and I respect that and appreciate you.
@ChristTheTruth87
@ChristTheTruth87 6 ай бұрын
Hasn't modern times proved to you that that is the Eastern Orthodox Church and your side was the wrong side of the schism? Someone should respond to my comment.
@soonsuicidal
@soonsuicidal 5 ай бұрын
No.
@sparrow7711
@sparrow7711 6 ай бұрын
You are 100% right. As Roman Catholic I’m deeply confused and disappointed. This document leaves room for errors and manipulation.
@saintejeannedarc9460
@saintejeannedarc9460 6 ай бұрын
There are a lot of Catholics that maintain that the document is very clear that it isn't blessing same sex unions, but only the couples. Ok, but why does the pope need to release an official Vatican document, going on for pages, to bring special attention to same sex couples and irregular unions (which likely leaves room for trans, non-binary and all the alphabet mafia)? This is a door cracker. It's paving the way for more. Getting people warmed up for it. So many Catholics are just closing their eyes and claiming their is nothing to see here. Thank you for being watchful and vigilant and not letting this slip by you. Catholics want to reflexively defend. Some things should not be defended. The Anglican church is doing this same thing in tandem. Anglicans and protestants are calling it out for what it is, a deviation from biblical standards.
@joekey8464
@joekey8464 6 ай бұрын
Errors? like what? a priest will never bless any same sex union, but now it is clarified that they can give blessings to persons in a same sex union. Is this not much better? Do not be led astray by those who seek to critic the church in every way. The church clarified the blessing of the persons in a same sex union. What do you do with the sinners?, the lost sheep, just abandon them to the wolves? Can we not show perfect charity by blessing them in the hope that they will be enlightened and see the light. The church is a house of God and everyone is welcome into it, especially those who need the blessings. The church cannot close its doors to anyone. Priest routinely bless on criminals on the death row..
@sweetsilage
@sweetsilage 6 ай бұрын
@@joekey8464 homosexuals could always be bless but not the union. Now it is different, it is the union that is being blessed. What was right is no wrong and what was wrong is now right
@freddiefreihofer7716
@freddiefreihofer7716 6 ай бұрын
@@joekey8464 Blessing each person as an individual is not controversial.
@blessedvirginmaryisqueen8448
@blessedvirginmaryisqueen8448 5 ай бұрын
​@@sweetsilageThe document explicitly forbids the blessing of gay unions.
@jamestheredd
@jamestheredd 6 ай бұрын
Excellent and thoughtful response. I think you nail the issues squarely on the head here. Thank you for sharing! God bless.
@catkat740
@catkat740 6 ай бұрын
As a Catholic, I agree with much of what you said Gavin! And I think you’re right that this is something of concern that should not be trivialized. It’s very difficult (and dare I say unprecedented? doctrinally) to see the Magisterium going the way of the world. We were spoiled with JP2 and Benny.
@jwatson181
@jwatson181 6 ай бұрын
Bro.... you had popes murder Christians. One has to deny history to be a Catholic.
@NP-vk8de
@NP-vk8de 6 ай бұрын
The RCC was well respected under JP II and Benedict and Vatican II shed a very favourable light on Catholicism. Unfortunately, the last 10 years have regressed to the point of hostility between Protestants and Catholics.
@saintejeannedarc9460
@saintejeannedarc9460 6 ай бұрын
This pope is definitely looking to change the RCC. Francis also said recently that it's a sin that the church is too masculine. He says a lot of shocking liberal things. There seem to be Catholics who see where this is going, and those w/ their head in the sand that he's either a bad pope that can't change the church, or some think he's a great pope. Rev. Brett Murphy is Anglican. He has a channel where he talks about all these issues. He had to leave the Anglican church because of all the liberal backsliding, and he's part of a free Orthodox branch of it now. He sees the RCC going the way the Anglican church started a few decades ago. It started w/ female pastors for the Anglicans, and Francis is holding that off, for now. He's still talking out of both sides of his face w/ his hints that the church is too masculine. He's gong right to the same sex blessing, and allowing trans to be baptized and to be godparents. Quite the scandals. God bless and strap in. It's not just a rocky ride on our side of the body, it's all over.
@ryanl1293
@ryanl1293 6 ай бұрын
@@saintejeannedarc9460 That's shocking he would say that the church is too masculine, God is masculine! Which God does he serve?
@lonniestoute8762
@lonniestoute8762 6 ай бұрын
@@ryanl1293 Sorry to inform you he made them make and female after his own image. God contains both masculine and feminine traits, just as humans do. And yes the Church is the "bride" of Christ and she ( the Church )cannot be overly masculine else we suffer the lose of Gods own feminine traits.
@EyeToob
@EyeToob 6 ай бұрын
7:28 *"My point is that having an infallible magisterium does not prevent ambiguity* because just look at the effect it is having. So where you might say "Oh this is absolutely changing nothing." you will have people like Father James Martin saying, "Regarding Vatican declarations on same-sex blessings, be wary of the 'nothing has changed' response to today's news. It's a significant change. In short, yesterday as a priest I was forbidden to bless same-sex couples at all. Today with some limitations I can." Thank you for making this point, Gavin The idea that the truth is spelled out clearly in the Catholic church because of its infallible magisterium is false.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
Well, to be fair, it's working better then Sola Scripture since we just have one Catholic Church and not many different organizations thanks to that "infallible doctrine sola scripture" . Just ribbing you a bit my non catholic friend! :)
@EyeToob
@EyeToob 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 Thanks for the ribbing :D Which is better? To be on one massive ship going in the wrong direction, but the captain/pope is using "infallible magisterium" to claim the ship is following the map correctly -- or -- To be in a fleet of small ships with the freedom to correct your ship's course when you find out you're not following the map correctly?
@prime_time_youtube
@prime_time_youtube 6 ай бұрын
Great analysis! There's people saying this is nothing, but there are a lot of priests worried about this, so it is important.
@jrhemmerich
@jrhemmerich 6 ай бұрын
Very much agree. Certain Roman apologists, like Michael Loften, who understandably want to defend the magisterial teachings of the church, downplay the significance of this shift to speaking of blessing to couples as couples. Even Michael was critical of the German Bishops who were not making this distinction in the past. But now that the magisterium has approved a blessing for the couple, he now has to defend the distinction of a blessing to a couple versus blessing a union or marriage. It’s a nice scholastic distinction, but really fails to consider the way that blessing and the optics around it is not just optics to be misunderstood, but actually is a practice which itself instructs by what is seen and done. One would think a church which gives such attention to icons and the visual would take such a connection more to heart. We need to pray for our Catholic brothers and sisters, that we both not fall into this deception which is overtaking the world.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
It is a scholastic distinction because that is what this doctrine is, the only optics around this being misunderstood is being caused by the media. We need to pray for our protestant brothers that they do not fall into this deception caused by the media in order to prevent you the protestant from embracing the only true religion, Catholicism. That's the point of this media blitz, to re-enforce and help you find yet one more reason to justify why you should not become a Catholic and obey Christ. Who runs the media? Satan.
@apubakeralpuffdaddy392
@apubakeralpuffdaddy392 6 ай бұрын
To all the Pope-Splainers and Conservative Catholic Establishment: Under these new guidelines, would Pope Francis bless the marriage of Herod & Herodias? You all defame the martyrdom of Saint John the Baptist, who was killed because he proclaimed God's Holy Word on lawful marriage.
@LukassYT
@LukassYT 6 ай бұрын
You're great at articulating your thoughts, and I'm happy that you're charitable. Learning lots and you're helping me evaluate how I argue and think of issues similar to what are on your channel.
@Y0urMisterDirty
@Y0urMisterDirty 6 ай бұрын
Pope Francis is paving the way for the next pope to be a real doozy
@dennis9423
@dennis9423 6 ай бұрын
Pope Doozy. Kinda catchy.
@crushtheserpent
@crushtheserpent 6 ай бұрын
Some insiders in Rome say the opposite. That many cardinals (including those more on the left) are alarmed by Pope Francis and will be voting way more conservative at the next conclave.
@rickshelley1287
@rickshelley1287 6 ай бұрын
Looking forward to a more liberal pope who supports women priests.
@dennis9423
@dennis9423 6 ай бұрын
@@crushtheserpent I hope you're right. We need a world leader who really loves the Word of God.
@Y0urMisterDirty
@Y0urMisterDirty 6 ай бұрын
@@crushtheserpent that sounds like a lot of “cope” to me. But my point goes in both directions. The next pope could be a massive liberal who decides to bless gay marriage or we could have a new Gregory the 7th who pulls the church in the opposite direction.
@catkat740
@catkat740 6 ай бұрын
6:32 Exactly!!!! People keep talking about what this doesn’t say and don’t want to address the question of its purpose to begin with!!
@mikegski7943
@mikegski7943 6 ай бұрын
Required to correct the German bishops who are doing liturgical types of ceremonies for same sex couples.
@HM-vj5ll
@HM-vj5ll 6 ай бұрын
Thanks for addressing this. May our catholic brethren be willing to have edifying debates or discussions over this.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
I am willing to have a discussion about this anytime, any place, anywhere.
@EmilTennis00
@EmilTennis00 6 ай бұрын
Thank you Gavin for expressing your thoughts in a much clearer way than "Fiducia Supplicans" by Pope Francis.
@alexandremuise8889
@alexandremuise8889 6 ай бұрын
Papacy being a Human Accretion, that's one of the main reasons (along with Purgatory and other works based parts of Roman Catholicism as well as some of the Marian Dogmas like the Assumption and Immaculate Conception) why I ultimately left Roman Catholicism and took on the label of Protestant.
@deedeemerry1295
@deedeemerry1295 6 ай бұрын
👍
@saintejeannedarc9460
@saintejeannedarc9460 6 ай бұрын
I'm surprised you were able to see through that. Mostly I'm surprised that more Catholics can't see those things are not biblically sound, but because the vast majority of them defend it, I'm now more surprised when Catholics leave for those reasons. How did you manage to see clear of the belief that holds Catholics fast that theirs is the one true church, w/ all the right doctrines and it can't possibly err?
@lusekelokamfwa8361
@lusekelokamfwa8361 6 ай бұрын
Thank you Dr Ortlund for this video. You have helped me see the document from a new perspective. Though I am a strong Protestant, I felt many people were giving unfair criticism to the Pope, based on things the document didn't say. After looking at this video, I realise there are genuine concerns that the Catholic Church needs to address and we should assist in helping them overcome those struggles.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
I think protestantism has it's hands full as it is within its own ranks, as it stands most do not even adhere to the nicean creeds. Start with that.
@lusekelokamfwa8361
@lusekelokamfwa8361 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 No doubt.
@joekey8464
@joekey8464 6 ай бұрын
The Catholic church will show perfect charity, but there red lines that the Catholic church will never cross..
@Mutasis_Mutandis
@Mutasis_Mutandis 6 ай бұрын
@@joekey8464. Appears to be going that way.
@MikeWinger
@MikeWinger 6 ай бұрын
Good points Gavin.
@theepitomeministry
@theepitomeministry 6 ай бұрын
Excellent video Dr. Ortlund! I know it's a sensitive topic, but it needed to be said. And you were very charitable in your delivery.
@jonathantweed4666
@jonathantweed4666 6 ай бұрын
The Church of England is currently trying to square the same circle: bless same-sex couples while also insisting that the definition of marriage hasn’t changed. I just can’t believe that if you do the first then in 10-15 years we won’t also be doing the second.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
No. it is not trying to "Square" the same circle, in it's circumstance it just outright embraces heresy. But the Church of England was heretical to begin with so to see it run it's natural course, just like every other protestant Church is just what you can expect.
@RuslanKD
@RuslanKD 6 ай бұрын
Well said Gavin!
@bibelstudiet7580
@bibelstudiet7580 6 ай бұрын
Well said and in a good spirit, thanks.
@fixpontt
@fixpontt 6 ай бұрын
i think there is a deliberate obfuscation in the language they use so that everybody can interpret it however they feel good about it
@Leftcatholicsatanchurch09
@Leftcatholicsatanchurch09 6 ай бұрын
With love, that is speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
@NJ49erFan77
@NJ49erFan77 6 ай бұрын
I read the document and did a search for the root word: 'repent'. It returned ZERO results.
@SacredCuriosity
@SacredCuriosity 6 ай бұрын
The boldness in declaring truth is noticed, Gavin! I just wanted to say that I can tell that you are a very peaceful and scholarly man, and making these bold statements isn't necessarily your first instinct in these discussions, but you can recognize that the online space requires sometimes a little less nuance in your final point. Those of us that are familiar with scientific and academic papers and familiar with this manner of speech see your thought process and we appreciate it, and although I think you're not wrong to be more bold, I think some of what has been such a powerful convincing backdrop to the arguments you've made is that you can tell that you have this peace that this is true, whereas so many seem to have a desperation to prove it to other people, you instead seek to explain. And although I don't agree with all of your conclusions, I find them all to be in very good faith and an understandable conclusion. And if any of us are convinced by argumentation, this type is going to provide more lasting fruits than just some bold short take that simply stands until someone hears the next bold incendiary take on the opposition.
@SacredCuriosity
@SacredCuriosity 6 ай бұрын
We can call people our brothers and sisters in Christ and still call them to a correct understanding. As a former Catholic myself, what I can struggle with even still is the sense that the Catholic church, with a dash of nuance and a pinch of unclarity, is basically telling people that they will go to hell (or are at least significantly risking it if they take their teachings on mortal sin seriously at all) for not being the right kind of Christian (aka, ultimately your salvation is probably decided by if you put your trust in the church, rather than simply in Christ's teachings). And Protestants often recognize all who profess the creeds to be Christian. That can lead to some sort of Pascal's wager, where you may not agree with the catholics fully, but it's hard to risk your salvation on that if the other guys who you might agree with more aren't making that claim. However, I've come to believe that just because somebody's salvation might not be contingent on being in the correct church, correct theology is still beneficial for us in our relationship with Christ and our witness to the world.
@jayv3264
@jayv3264 6 ай бұрын
Gavin, you echo my observations and thoughts 💯. 👍🏻👍🏻
@tiffanyhall2758
@tiffanyhall2758 6 ай бұрын
Thank you for talking about this!
@jamesbarksdale978
@jamesbarksdale978 6 ай бұрын
Agreed. I've commented about this at other posts, so won't do it here. It seems they have intentionally muddied the waters - a common characteristic of this pontificate.
@Sonic2Chronicles
@Sonic2Chronicles 6 ай бұрын
As a Catholic, i whole-heartedly agree with your overall statement. This document is confusing and has no positives for the Catholic Church. I am…confused by what the Vatican was expecting to happen with this. Anyway, Merry Christmas to all my brothers and sisters in Christ!
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
It's not actual confusing. The media just made it that way.
@Sonic2Chronicles
@Sonic2Chronicles 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668if it wasn’t confusing, there wouldn’t be this many intelligent Christian’s scratching their heads and scrambling to explain what the Pope meant.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
@@Sonic2Chronicles No, that is a false conclusion. Lot's of documents come out that take time for people to read over and understand. It's not confusing. It's confusing for some people does not make it confusing in nature.
@samueljennings4809
@samueljennings4809 6 ай бұрын
@dman7668 Why has the Vatican not come out to clarify that this isn’t any change whatsoever? Why is the Vatican content with the media and Fr Martin spreading the word that something big has changed and chooses to say nothing, especially as this is scandalising to many. AT BEST, this is the Pope being incredibly foolish and naive. Didn’t Jesus say that we should be harmless as doves but also as wise as serpents? Paul even defended himself and sought to clarify when people twisted him out of context, so why isn’t Pope Francis?
@giannihatzianmevris1861
@giannihatzianmevris1861 6 ай бұрын
So much for the Infallibility of the Papacy!
@bhgtree
@bhgtree 6 ай бұрын
Thanks Dr Ortlund. As a conservative catholic it is confusing, the Catholic Church has always thought that the only union is between a man and a woman and they make this commitment to each other in marriage (as the Bible also says). This is what I believe, Now I would never discriminate against anyone, but would treat them with respect and pray for them.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
As a conservative Catholic this is not very confusing.
@apubakeralpuffdaddy392
@apubakeralpuffdaddy392 6 ай бұрын
Under these new guidelines, would Pope Francis bless the marriage of Herod & Herodias? You all defame the martyrdom of Saint John the Baptist, who was killed because he proclaimed God's Holy Word on lawful marriage.
@theespjames4114
@theespjames4114 6 ай бұрын
Guarantee, Watch the seeds of this grow into a type of marriage celebration .
@saintejeannedarc9460
@saintejeannedarc9460 6 ай бұрын
It's already been happening a long time in Catholic churches. It's only a matter of time before it's officially done. Parishes have been doing pride Masses. Francis won't stop it. He keeps encouraging support for gays, gay marriage blessings, and trans.
@theespjames4114
@theespjames4114 6 ай бұрын
@@saintejeannedarc9460 true! Francis is joining a long list of evil Popes. I hate to see this happening it stains all of Christendom .
@tiberiusmagnificuscaeser4929
@tiberiusmagnificuscaeser4929 6 ай бұрын
If you look in protestant churches that have gone in a pro-LGBT direction, this kind of thing is exactly how it starts. First, some priests start going on their own, ostensibly against the rules of the church they are a part of, then the bishops or other heads over those priests refuse to condemn them or punish them in any way, then the denomination as a whole starts making accommodations for them, first in small ways but eventually in big ways. The Church of England just recently started to allow the same kind of practice, the day before this declaration actually the first blessings were administered, and in that case it is universally seen as a step on the road to gay marriage in the CofE, we shouldn't look at this as any less dangerous.
@saintejeannedarc9460
@saintejeannedarc9460 6 ай бұрын
That's why I don't understand why so many Catholics just defend this and claim nothing is happening. It is in parallel to what happened to the Anglican church. The timing is oddly coincidental too. Yes, the RCC isn't as far along, because they don't have women priests yet. The pope has actually taken a stand on that, for now. At the same time, he recently said it's a sin that the Catholic church is so masculine. Now what does that mean, and where is he going w/ that?
@kerry8506
@kerry8506 6 ай бұрын
There’s one big difference though. We’re not Protestants. As the document states, “the Church does not have the power to impart blessings on unions of persons of the same sex.” Protestant churches have the power to change their doctrines. The Catholic Church does not.
@ChildofGod98765
@ChildofGod98765 6 ай бұрын
Lord only you know the burdens I face give me strength to get through this Christmas. I am a single mom and it can be hard to have everything on your shoulders and receive very little support. Both of my sons are autistic they require so much from me. I’m struggling to provide for them. But I keep faith even as I struggle to pay rent every month and as I struggle to buy groceries. My health is also fading due to heart disease and lupus. Jesus please help me to find strength when I am weak, hope when I am struggling, and peace in the midst of chaos. I have faith God will provide. 😢
@lopa5881
@lopa5881 6 ай бұрын
He’s close to the broken hearted, take heart for He is with you and He hasn’t and will never forget about you❤️‍🩹
@Rubberglass
@Rubberglass 6 ай бұрын
LORD be with my sister this Christmas. Grace and peace in Jesus name. 💛
@northstar2621
@northstar2621 6 ай бұрын
Prayers from this single mom to you.
@SCOTTISHSOULFOOD1
@SCOTTISHSOULFOOD1 6 ай бұрын
MMM .... As a pastor I have been sent a very similar email almost word for word at places. If this is genuine I would recommend you contact a local pastor in your area
@inchristalone25
@inchristalone25 6 ай бұрын
I see this comment on every christian channel. Word for word.
@Sharpman76
@Sharpman76 6 ай бұрын
Man, Gavin, you are brilliant, and the apologetic you delivered in this video was excellent. What an exemplary message commending people to the truth of Christ without mincing words and without neglecting charity. You are such an encouragement to my mind and my heart. May God continue to bless your impact on Christendom and the world at large, and may our labor not be in vain!
@DaveWillmore
@DaveWillmore 6 ай бұрын
Thank you for this.
@randomname2366
@randomname2366 6 ай бұрын
If I had any idea you were moving to Tennessee I would have made the trip to Ojai from OC to visit you and say thank you. Opportunity missed!
@lyterman
@lyterman 6 ай бұрын
I was expecting this to he a low blow, but it was pretty fair. The document is confusing and troubling. And your point that papal infallibility does not prevent all ambiguities is correct, and was correct prior to this. If we had a corporation that God promised would never go bankrupt, we shouldn't be surprised when that corporation has very bad years financially. I see the Church the same way, but those "bad years" are still difficult while you're living them.
@dennis9423
@dennis9423 6 ай бұрын
Thank you for your insightful words. The Pope has not made himself clear. I think what is also confusing the declaration is the Pope's redefinition of the word, "bless." In his own terms, the blessing is a call to repentence and should not be seen as an act of approval. Who has ever heard such a thing? When I look up Merrriam-Webster's definition of "bless" it includes these verbs: to hallow, to consecrate, to invoke divine care, to praise, to glorify, to APPROVE, to protect, perserve, or to endow favor. There is no mention of repentance as it is not used for that at all. He has hijacked the word, redefined it, and is essentially changed its basic meaning. Everyone who seeks a blessing wants encouragement, an at-ta-boy, or approval. Nobody is seeking an admonition and a call to abandon their sin. This message of the Catholic Church is messed up.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
The Church has aways blessed sinners. This is not a controversy.
@dennis9423
@dennis9423 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 Show me Biblically what you mean. I think we are talking about two kind of blessings but we are using the same terminology. Give me an example from scripture where the blessing is given to a sinner and for purpose it was given. I really want to hear your view. I am open to change my mind on this. I could be wrong. Thanks.
@apubakeralpuffdaddy392
@apubakeralpuffdaddy392 6 ай бұрын
Under these new guidelines, would Pope Francis bless the marriage of Herod & Herodias? You all defame the martyrdom of Saint John the Baptist, who was killed because he proclaimed God's Holy Word on lawful marriage.
@dennis9423
@dennis9423 6 ай бұрын
@@apubakeralpuffdaddy392 Under their new "critical conditions" I think they'd have to.
@apubakeralpuffdaddy392
@apubakeralpuffdaddy392 6 ай бұрын
@@dennis9423 So, then, John the Baptist died for nothing.
@Erick_Ybarra
@Erick_Ybarra 6 ай бұрын
Your analysis is completely understanding. This is a very difficult time for Catholics. May God have mercy
@BrianWright-mi3lc
@BrianWright-mi3lc 6 ай бұрын
Very thankful for this response. Safe travels, Gavin!
@robertj5208
@robertj5208 6 ай бұрын
Thank you Gavin!!
@kirstenfondren9226
@kirstenfondren9226 6 ай бұрын
This actually applies to those who are technically in adultery too pet canon law. Those who are remarried without an annulment.
@kimdungtrinh7543
@kimdungtrinh7543 6 ай бұрын
I think there is an evil genius behind all of the chaoses, outside as well as inside the church. Let's keep our faith steadfast in God and pray for His mercy knowing that evil doers cannot stay in the day of judgment. Francis is too old to have clear mind as a "top shepherd". Thank you Dr. Gavin Ortlund for your explanation. Lord have mercy. Christ have mercy.
@corey3328
@corey3328 6 ай бұрын
Dr.Ortlund, could you make more videos on the topic of Calvinism? It would be really helpful to get your perspective on the topic.Great video and thank you for your channel.
@BarryD-Stylize
@BarryD-Stylize 6 ай бұрын
Well said! I'm an RC and can fully understand why you feel this way. You have voiced many of our concerns about Fiducia Supplicans too. If 'teaching' coming from such a highly respected level in the structure is going to hide behind a ridiculous ambiguity, it shouldn't be respected as instruction at all.
@brandonclark908
@brandonclark908 6 ай бұрын
Love having you in Tennessee now Gavin!
@jackshannon777
@jackshannon777 6 ай бұрын
Excellent. Good work, Gavin.
@kainech
@kainech 6 ай бұрын
I hope your move goes well, and that was an even-handed response (nicer than mine). The response was also deserved given how prominent the "Our magisterium is infallible" arguments are. It's honestly deserved for invoking infallibility so often to people who disagree. Regardless of whether the infallible source is the pope, the magisterium, one's church, a prophet, the Scripture, a tradition, or anything else, it seems that we never have access to the infallibility, and all these sources create ambiguity, difficulty, and confusion. It's very fair to point out the confusion when infallibility is such a prominent argument.
@66cybertube
@66cybertube 6 ай бұрын
I think you hit the nail on the head. When I first saw the headlines, I was very confused. I've listen to many different responses centered around the meaning of 'blessing'. And I'm still confused about the Pope's statement and very concerned that this is a very dangerous drift.
@yorobman1
@yorobman1 6 ай бұрын
I find it hilarious that so many comments start with ... "As a Catholic...". Having said that, as a Catholic I found your logic and reasoning sound. It is not disingenuous or mean spirited to stand for your beliefs and the doctrines of faith that you support. I am very nervous of the long-term implications of this paradigm shift. You wisely point out the dangers of gradualism and ambiguity, and this latest message from the Pope plants seeds whose fruits we do not know. Even a rock can be eroded, and gradualism and ambiguity are the waters that can do that. Thank you for persevering in speaking truth and questioning dubious action when it is necessary. Our Church remains strong because we dare to question and to seek truth. Keep a love-filled heart. Keep an open and vigilant mind. -Robert, Pleasanton, CA.
@david_porthouse
@david_porthouse 6 ай бұрын
As a New Protestant, I agree with you.
@saintejeannedarc9460
@saintejeannedarc9460 6 ай бұрын
I see a lot of Catholics stubbornly maintaining that nothing bad or corrosive is happening. I'm glad that some don't have their heads in the sand. I'm told by some CAtholics that the document is clear. It seems more clear as mud. The pope knows many liberal parishes are embracing the lgbt movement. They are doing pride Masses, the priests are unofficially blessing these unions anyway. So instead of making firm statements against it, they seem to be putting out statements for it. The Anglican church did all these things in increments too.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
@@david_porthouse As a Catholic, I can tell you his logic is not sound. Here he is attacking the "lack of clarity" on a clear document and ignoring the lack of clarity over sola scripture which is causing ACTUAL Protestant Church's to read into it thanks to THAT doctrine that same sex marriage is okay! Do you NOT see the irony in that? :)
@david_porthouse
@david_porthouse 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 Well to begin with, Scriptura is the 73 undifferentiated books of the Gutenberg Bible. This is what the preamble to _Pastor Aeternus_ is referring to. The Douai-Rheims translation of that Scripture refers to homosexual activity as an abomination. I hope that we are not standing on shifting sands and conducting circular arguments when I say this. I suspect Dr Ortlund's definition of Scriptura will turn out to be something else.
@Zaillothen
@Zaillothen 2 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 ive been reading comments on this video and you are a very angry and hateful person.
@Dave_OGG
@Dave_OGG 6 ай бұрын
I hope everything goes well with your family moving
@cassidyanderson3722
@cassidyanderson3722 6 ай бұрын
Spot on analysis. If this is just business as usual, then why did it need to happen at all? If you are a Catholic same sex couple, do you feel more secure in your lifestyle today than you did yesterday? I’d encourage everyone to go to Reason & Theology’s channel and watch Michael Lofton try to explain this away with a straight face. The cognitive dissonance is palpable, while the self awareness is totally and completely absent. This whole ordeal is absurd.
@caseycardenas1668
@caseycardenas1668 6 ай бұрын
Your failure to see how things can be clarified is what is absurd, have you read the documents or declarations yourself? Or have you simply tuned into what everyone else is telling you about what the Pope said?
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
It isn't unusual for an organization with 1.2 billion Catholics to repeat information. Companies do the same thing.
@saintejeannedarc9460
@saintejeannedarc9460 6 ай бұрын
@@caseycardenas1668 Your pope is telling his ministry that they can bless same sex unions. It's not just a statement he made, now it's officially written. Buckle up, or keep your head in the sand. Either way, it's happening and it's official now.
@caseycardenas1668
@caseycardenas1668 6 ай бұрын
@@saintejeannedarc9460 you just lost all credibility because it is quite apparent you did not read the dubia, documents, or declarations and then you spouted falsities as if they were facts. Ironically, you are the one with his head in the sand. Please provide a citation from an official magisterial document where the Pope said you can bless same sex unions, he did not, so good luck. Repent of your false accusations and of bearing false witness.
@saintejeannedarc9460
@saintejeannedarc9460 6 ай бұрын
@@caseycardenas1668 I never had an credibility w/ your kind, and never will. I don't see things the way you see them. Oh well, believe whatever lies and false hope you want.
@stvtorres75
@stvtorres75 6 ай бұрын
I suggest watching Father Chris Alar's homily on this issue. He also provides a clear explanation of the document and expresses his concerns.
@nikloff1815
@nikloff1815 6 ай бұрын
Do not put your trust in Princes or sons of men to whom no salvation belongs.
@Andrei99k
@Andrei99k 6 ай бұрын
Protestantism proves more right every day.
@BroJo676
@BroJo676 6 ай бұрын
Say that to the different Protestant churches which have been celebrating gay marriages for years.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
Uh. Sola Scripture is causing more confusion then any Catholic teaching.
@bthemedia
@bthemedia 5 ай бұрын
As a Catholic, I can only read FS in the most charitable light as semantic sophistry to “liberalize” and “modernize” the Catholic Church to the ways of the world than of heaven. The evil one is the author of confusion, while Christ Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light! The small acknowledgments that FS does not “change doctrine on marriage” is only the sugar that helps the heresy go down.
@J-ky8qg
@J-ky8qg 6 ай бұрын
Watching Trent Horns video also helped in giving me some perspective! Great video Gavin!
@beto8493
@beto8493 6 ай бұрын
The document is vague and confuse with a purpose. This is the first step for something else.
@giannihatzianmevris1861
@giannihatzianmevris1861 6 ай бұрын
It's a wishy washy step towards the inevitable.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
What was confusing for you?
@rickwyant
@rickwyant 6 ай бұрын
Bless them but tell them to sin no more. That's what's missing.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
That doesn't need to be said everytime people get blessed lol
@tonycostatorontoapologetic5307
@tonycostatorontoapologetic5307 5 ай бұрын
You are very charitable Gavin.
@MidSpectrumThoughts
@MidSpectrumThoughts 6 ай бұрын
I fully agree with this as a Catholic. You charitably identified the Pope didn’t bless this son. And I also think this is confusing to all. What comforts me is the following. “He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood* has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” The gates of hell will never prevail. Regardless of the actions of a Pope the Church still stands. That says a lot. Pray for the Pope.
@ChristTheTruth87
@ChristTheTruth87 6 ай бұрын
WHy do you think that when Jesus revealed this to the Peter that this means that the Pope of Rome has the same sort of revelation. Doesn't everyone have to have it revealed to them from the father in heaven regardless of being in Rome or elsewhere?
@__mari___
@__mari___ 6 ай бұрын
Well said
@MidSpectrumThoughts
@MidSpectrumThoughts 5 ай бұрын
@@ChristTheTruth87 The new is concealed in the old and the old is revealed in the new. That’s how I know. Hope you understand
@TheTransfiguredLife
@TheTransfiguredLife 6 ай бұрын
Great point Dr.Gavin! At best it's confusing and at worst the Catholic Church is embracing worldliness! Lord have mercy!
@saintejeannedarc9460
@saintejeannedarc9460 6 ай бұрын
The RCC is openly embracing homosexuality, trans and Francis is even saying it's a sin the church is too masculine. So he's paving the way for women in ministry. He supposedly closed the doors on that recently, though he keeps talking out of both sides of his face on these matters. So he's cracking the door on it. This is how it went w/ the Anglican church. Didn't all happen overnight, but it happened.
@davecorns7630
@davecorns7630 6 ай бұрын
when i heard this it hit me like a ton of bricks, why? why do we have to follow the world? aren't we christians the owners of the truth? i never though the catholic church would do this, at least not that early
@Wilkins325
@Wilkins325 6 ай бұрын
Hey Gavin, great and much needed video. Is it difficult for you to be leaving family in California, or do you have people out in TN? God bless.
@bethl
@bethl 6 ай бұрын
I believe his parents are in TN.
@kriegjaeger
@kriegjaeger 6 ай бұрын
We're told to flee from sexual immorality as while other sins harm others, sexual immorality harms ourselves. To bless them would be to guide them to repentance towards God, away from their sin. Not any form of accommodation or affirmation of their sin.
@fellow_servant_jamesk8303
@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 6 ай бұрын
Then why “bless them” as a “couple”?
@kriegjaeger
@kriegjaeger 6 ай бұрын
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 I don't recommend that. The loving thing to do is help them repent towards God, not to encourage worldly behavior.
@fellow_servant_jamesk8303
@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 6 ай бұрын
@@kriegjaeger amen
@thelonelysponge5029
@thelonelysponge5029 6 ай бұрын
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303couple means couple, not Couple
@fellow_servant_jamesk8303
@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 6 ай бұрын
@@thelonelysponge5029 is that a “Tradition”/“tradition” thing? If so….solid point.
@danielhixon8209
@danielhixon8209 6 ай бұрын
Another great video, Gavin. As a pastor, I bless everyone in the church at the end of every service, in the name of God. That will certainly include sinners of all kinds, and I am indeed blessing the people and not their sin. But that is a far cry from what both the pope and also the church of England are currently doing, which is creating specific procedures for blessing same sex couples as such. You are right on the mark when you say “if there is no change in teaching , why generate this document at all? “ You are also right on when you suggest that this may be a step along the way toward even further change. And as the further change occurs, people will still be shouting “there is no change” - it seems like ecclesiastical “gas lighting”. Finally, I think pope Francis has been the greatest opponent of Roman Catholic apologetics in generations, since he keeps demonstrating that their claims of infallible magisterium to safeguard the faith and avoid confusion (so attractive to disaffected Evangelicals) simply don’t actually hold up.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
No Daniel, that is not what the Catholic Church is doing here. You've misunderstood.
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
Sola scripture hasn't held up, in this video Gavin attacks the magesterium as failing, but still tries to prop up Sola Scripture (which we both can agree is false obviously) which UNLIKE Catholicism has lead to actual protestant Churches embracing gay marriage.
@danielhixon8209
@danielhixon8209 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668 To clarify, I think "gas lighting" is what Francis is doing, not the Catholic Church as such. My opinion has been shaped by the similar behaviors of Anglican and Methodist bishops, who have repeated pushed the envelope (or allowed others to do so) toward same-sex marriages while downplaying the moves, or claiming that no change was taking place. So, I think the ambiguity is an intentional strategy on his part. The document does explicitly reaffirm historic teaching, but then commends a practice that is actually incompatible with that teaching, as numerous Roman Catholic bishops, canon lawyers, and even archbishops are also openly saying (it's not just us Protestants and the secular media). I agree that this episode does not necessarily bolster the Reformers' claims for sola Scriptura, but it does undercut the rationale that leads many Protestants - including some personal friends - to become Roman Catholic: the idea that an infallible magisterium led by the pope secures the church from confusion or error, and therefore safeguards the truth of the message and the unity of the Church; that is, it proports to offer a kind of certainty and clarity. But in fact, I fear that a few more years of this ambiguity from Francis will actually cause an outright visible split of the Roman Catholic Church (which I think would be a tragedy) precisely because the pronouncements from Rome are sowing confusion, stirring up discord, and undermining the confidence and clarity of the Roman Church's message. Even if you believe that both Gavin and I, who have advanced degrees in theology have both radically misunderstood what is happening, should itself be evidence that the magisterium is not working as a useful interpreter for "the common man" in the pew. Personally, I will pray for the pope, and for the unity of the Roman Catholic Church, in the faith "once and for all entrusted to the saints."
@CamGaylor
@CamGaylor 6 ай бұрын
Safe travels gavin!!
@debshirley6904
@debshirley6904 6 ай бұрын
Thank you, Gavin! Your detailed, fair, and charitable assessment is so appreciated!
@derrickcarson
@derrickcarson 6 ай бұрын
This is the most sane, commonsensical, breakdown and explanation of the popes comments. The comments were definitely confusing and absolutely need clarification (only if you're a Catholic, of course).
@mightypower2853
@mightypower2853 6 ай бұрын
I appreciate your thoughts on this.
@morghe321
@morghe321 6 ай бұрын
Video quality is not that bad, lol. I wouldn't even complain if every video looked like this. It's what you say that matters.
@davidw.5185
@davidw.5185 6 ай бұрын
I am a devout evangelical catholic, also called a "lutheran". My heart and prayers go out to the Christians found within the church of Rome. Francis is attempting to erode the Word of God. There is no defending this action by him.
@mf4674
@mf4674 6 ай бұрын
Thanks for this analysis and comments regarding this topic. Lord Jesus Christ bless you !
@Hadrianus01
@Hadrianus01 6 ай бұрын
To be honest, as a Catholic, this document made me really concerned about the Church and the Pope...
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
It really should not. The blessing the document is talking about is more along the lines of "when a person’s relationship with God is clouded by sin, he can always ask for a blessing, stretching out his hand to God”. The blessing isn't consenting the sinful lifestyle (although many misunderstand it as such) but rather a request for Gods presence and therefore intervention in their lives. Its bridging the gap for people who think they can't even approach God because of their sinful condition. Of course while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
@Leftcatholicsatanchurch09
@Leftcatholicsatanchurch09 6 ай бұрын
@@dman7668Christ is our only mediator, not a priest , Bishop or even a Pope. You are failing the Bride of Christ. You should serve the Bride and be honoured to shepherd Her to the Christ. Woe to the paid hirelings. When the King returns from the far off country…….
@dman7668
@dman7668 6 ай бұрын
@Leftcatholicsatanchurch09 You are right, that's what the Catholic Church is doing, trying to stop us from coming to Christ. Which denomination should I join up with once I stop being Catholic? Any suggestions?
@DrAndrewC
@DrAndrewC 6 ай бұрын
Well said Gavin!!
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