Class one engineer for 20 years here. I detest PTC, for several reasons. First and foremost, PTC has created an entire generation of throttle jockeys who are dependent of the screen in front of them to know where they are. As one conductor put it to me, old engineers run better without PTC, new ones run better with it. With the exception of information about the signals ahead, the PTC display does not give any information at all which I don’t already know as an experienced engineer. WHEN (not if) PTC does not work, it will create a situation where a supposedly qualified train crew are completely incapable of safely operating a two mile long string of explodey boys, but they’re doing it anyway. Related to that, far too many people rely on PTC as a cab signal system. Even the railroads expect us to use it in that capacity. The reliance on an unreliable technology scares me. With railroads in the Hunter Harrison era cutting back on maintenance and generally cutting every conceivable corner in the quest for profits, it’s likely to create a deadly situation that could have been easily prevented. Finally, I dislike PTC because of its use on railroads not as a safety device, but as a discipline system. For a long time, it was common practice to automatically take a crew out of service after an enforcement, regardless of the reason. There have been several well documented examples of PTC being programmed with the wrong data and then enforcing a crew for doing exactly what they should have been doing. There are numerous little things I can nitpick about PTC, from design to implementation to reliability. While I appreciate the goal of preventing accidents, blind faith in an imperfect technology is making a situation that I fear could be just as bad or worse in the long run.

common misconception. negative train control isn't when you rub a train's face in the oil spill it left on the ballast, it's when you *don't* if it *doesn't*

I’ve been a certified PTC installer for 7 years. PTC can absolutely control throttle. Not so much on earlier retrofitted locomotives. But on factory installed units, it can absolutely be fully automated. That’s why carriers are pushing for one man crews. I kinda agree. But the person in the conductor seat should be an electrician.

To all fellow ES&D crew members, In lieu of this video, the Eat Shit & Die will be running under Negative Train Control (NTC). Here are the 6 commandments: #1: The throttle stays on the ceiling AND back wall at all times. #2: The Johnson bar is welded all the way in the corner, because the ES&D doesn't believe in going backwards. #3: Every safety valve is welded shut; the ES&D paid for the whole pressure gauge, therefore the ES&D is going to use the whole goddamn gauge. #4 Speed limits? The ES&D doesn't have time for that bullshit! #5 Forget the f*cking signals! Every train is highest priority on the ES&D. You just need to race the others to the switch, and pray you get there first! #6: Following the Vatican & Southern's example, all express services have 150 pounds of nitrous-oxide on tap in the locomotives to ensure passengers arrive on time, regardless of their condition upon arrival.

The train wreck you discussed is also why if the FRA catches you with your phone on while on duty at any time they kill you in real life

"dont show up drunk" kenosha starts playing in my head xd

I like to think of the two man crew requirement in the same light as planes. Under ideal conditions commercial planes could be capable of take off, flight, and landing without any human input. However, when things go wrong it's nice to have a pair of pilots to provide educated oversight of the automated systems and reduce the odds of catastrophy.

That Thumbnail wreck is also why the FRA banned the usage of cell phones during the operations of the train. For those who don't know, cell phones must be turned off and must be stored away somewhere that is not in or on your persons.

The missile knows where it is, because it knows where it isn't

Two PTC fun facts from the Northeast: - Amtrak and a number of the commuter railroads use ACSES, a PTC system that relies on transponders placed in the middle of the track, instead of using GPS. I think this was because they wanted to be able to differentiate speeds between outer (local) tracks and inner (express) tracks and couldn't guarantee reliable enough resolution with GPS, but I could be wrong on that. - Strangely enough, PATH (Port Authority Trans-Hudson, the subway system between Jersey and Manhattan) was included in the PTC mandate despite being isolated* from the neighboring mainline railroads. IIRC this was a legacy thing from when the system was the Hudson & Manhattan and actually DID share tracks with the PRR, meaning they fell under the FRA's jurisdiction when it was formed.

The problem with PTC is the class one railroads use it to terminate employees. It is a good thing for safety but once you get a 30,000 ton coal train with 2 seperate sets of DP and they want you to use Trip optimizer, and it starts to speed, but they don't want you to disengage TO until it prompts you to take control and by the time it does that you're enforced by PTC for speeding and then they pull you out of service. Point being is PTC just becomes another thing the engineer has to monitor on top of all the other things that are controlling the train makes it very difficult. The conductor can not even control PTC.

We gon' learn today.

Hyce, I just want to thank you for this video. My dad and I have been confused about the inner workings of PTC for a while now and you basically answered all of our questions. I have a feeling he’s going to appreciate this just as much as I did

Greeting from PZB90, LZB, ETCS land :p

I actually knew the engineer on the Chatsworth collision. Yes, he was texting at the Chatsworth station, but he had forgotten the signal before hand was a restrictive signal, and the conductor didn’t remind him. The final signal before the track went to one line had malfunctioned showing green when it should’ve been red, unfortunately the UP freight had just cleared the last signal before the double track so when Robert ran the red, there was no way of either Crew, knowing that they were gonna run into each other. another interesting thing about PTC is that my line the Ventura in Santa Barbara subs were the first part of the country to be fitted with PTC

This was a super fun and informative video! I know we all love the "PTC could have prevented this" memes but having a more serious video talking about PTC was excellent! Where I live in New Jersey, we have a very small freight railroad called the Morristown & Erie that doesn't have PTC installed in their very small roster of locomotives. They run along a stretch of track that NJT doesn't use but sometimes they have to run on the Morris & Essex Line and they have to run with a NJ Transit engine on the front that does have PTC. They also have an exception to run excursion trains at the Whippany Railway Museum (Which you should come and visit btw! They have some super cool stuff!) without having PTC (or a NJT locomotive on the front) even though there are several crossings on the line. (Like you mentioned in the video in relation to steam locomotives not having PTC, there are workers stationed at each crossing to make sure that the crossings are clear.)

In Europe it is called ERTMS ( European Rail Traffic Management System ) It not using Gps. It uses Position Balise and the locomotive's distance counter to calculate the exact position of the train Level 1 (with signals and fixed transponders often just at the signals) Level 2 (without signals/or signals but continuous data transmission via GSM-R ) Level 3 (without signals and track management continuous data transmission via GSM-R Moving block)

Thank you for the video! Very informative. I never in a million years thought I would hear the words "navigation by dead reckoning" applied to a _train._ Ye gads! Fun to learn today!! :)

Steam locos in Germany have basically a brake cylinder connected to the throttle lever with a over pressure valve, so if the brake pipe drops below max application it will close the regulator really quickly to about 5% (minimum steam flow for lubrication and to not draw a vacuum)

So the Train knows where it is because it knows where it isn't.

Clear back in the 40's, Pere Marquette was using ATS (Automatic Train Stop). The FRA ordered the 1225 crew to remove the no longer functional hardware. I assume ATS was a neanderthal ancestor of PTC?

Thank you so much for discussing augmented GPS (cellular A-GPS not explicitly, but odometer comparison). I straight-up wrote my Internal Assessment in IB math on a very similar problem and it was for a rail transit application too!

Now that my job places me in very close proximity to the rail industry (well, auxiliary to. I'm railway taxi - drive crews from their train to hotel / yard / other train / whatever), maybe now I'll start to understand what's being said when the crew in the back starts griping about PTC! I love your videos. I'm the type to google everything I can find and yet yours always teach me something new, even if it's something I thought I had well understood. And now that I'm interacting somewhat with the industry on a daily basis, it's more than just trivia knowledge. You don't really gain an appreciation for everything until you're dealing with it up close

I play train sim world so I leaned it from there. I am more used to PZB, Sifa, AWS, AFB and the LZB one. Though I have one route that has PTC. Edit. For those curious I will explain what each does to the best of my ability. Take what I say with a grain of salt. I learned this from a game and wikipidia. I don't have any real life experience. Lets start with the 2 that are similar to what Hyce is talking about. PZB and AWS. First PZB. PZB or Punktförmige Zugbeeinflussung is basically a the german exuivaliant of PTC, but it runs differently. PZB tells you about yellow signals, redsignals and if there is a lower speed limit. The way PZB runs are by magnets on the rails wich are usually by signals and lower speed zones. There are two main things that tell you what to do in PZB. There is a 2000Hz magnet, 1000Hz magnet, and a 500Hz magnet. The 1000Hz magnet is usually before caution signals and lower speed zones. There are a few things you can and or must do when encontering a 1000Hz signal. There are three levers on trains with PZB. There is PZB acknowledge, PZB release, and PZB override. When you get the signal you HAVE to acknowledge it in 2 to 4 seconds. If you don't the train WILL come to a complete stop using emergency brakes. Once it's at a stop you can the move again after pressing acknowlage. If you do hit it in time then you will receive a message saying slow down to a certant speed before 23 seconds. after about 1250 meters (used to be 700) you can release the speed restriction only if it is safe to release. The most common place for a 1000hz is again before a speed drop or if its a yellow signal wich may be followed up by a red signal. That brings up the 500hz magnet. About 250 m before a train aproches a red signal it will receive a 500hz magnet. This is a forced speed limit and going over it will cause an emerganicy stop. Idk if it's like this in real life but it asumses your going atlest under 55 kph. over that and it will stop you now mater what. Even if you just entered it. These are found always before a red signal and makes sure you are going slow enough to stop before said signal. From my experience you cannot release it until you are passed the signal when its green or yellow. Lastly is 2000Hz. This one I have the least amount of experience with because its a magnet after a red signal. In train sim world if you pass a red signal any amount it fails you and you have to restart the mission. But from what I understand it's a emergency stop signal. It automatically. Next we have AWS. Its baciacly a dumbed down version of PZB. It mainly runs in the UK. I its just a sound that buzzes everytime you cross a yellow that you have to press an acknowledge button for and a flower like light will turn on until you pass a green. I think it also stops you when you pass a red also but I'm not too sure on that. After that is LZB. You can have PZB with LZB, but you cannot have LZB without PZB. Altleast to what I know. From what I can understand LZB is just automation for high speed trains. The literally automate the driving part. Even the PZB stuff. After that we basically have cruise control or AFB. Its just cruise control. There are two ways to turn it on. When your at a stand still you can just turn it on at 0kmp. When moving you need the throttle off and the cruise control set to max speed. Then you can turn it on. Set the speed and then set the throttle. Lastly is Sifa. Sifa is just an awareness procedure also in Germany. It periodically sets off an sound that when heard you have to press a switch of some kind to acknowledge it. If you don't in time the train will have an emergency stop, BUT unlike the other systems if you acknowledge it even after the alarm and then reset the throttle you don't have to come to a complete stop. Not every country has these and if they do they may be named differently. I am just more familiar with the German and UK systems because that seems to be the most popular route typse in train sim world 4. That and Germany is very stricked about all that. Again take all this with a grain of salt. I have knowledge from a game and wikipidia. I've got nothing compared to what the professionals know. They know this for a living.

I'm really loving these 101 videos you do, Hyce- its easy to go down the rabbit hole of 'Topic X' and learn something more thoroughly if its not really known by the general public or even just smidge more of something already basically known. Even better is getting to rewatch them- having that better understanding of the topic at hand and related content- and how it lives up to your goal of demystifying historic and modern railroading. I can't thank you enough for doing vids like this.

CFRs mentioned. Church of Alco shall be summoned

Funny thing-we've had PTC for a long time before Chatsworth. 103 years before in 1905, the UK's GWR gave us ATC, which applies the brakes if actions aren't taken.

The territory I am qualified on, I get to use both the I-ETMS and ACSES systems. I love the I-ETMS much better than the ACSES. ACSES is great for passenger, especially commuter, as there is no entering information into a computer about your train. But, for friend, that does stuff like switching and reverse moves at switches and interlockings, yeah, it doesn't work well. There is no "restricted mode" like I-ETMS has. Also, it is programmed that every freight is a 15,000 ton all load train (maybe exaggerating a little) where I-ETMS performs according to your current train consist that is entered into the system. After watching to the end, adding a few more things. 1) You didn't mention about PTC not being able to stop a rear end collision. Right now, there is no way to communicate where the rear of a train is. 2) You mentioned 21 in a 20 will cause braking. PTC won't enforce until 5 over except for the upper limits of restricted speed, then it will enforce at 20 mph. 3) Another thing it does, it starts blowing approx 20 seconds before a crossing (not sure of the exact number of seconds) 4) As far as problems, we had numerous in our cab signal territory. It still isn't perfect. When the Cab Signal drops to restricting, we have to be prepared to stop at the next Cab Signal Box or Interlocking fixed signal. PTC wants you at restricted speed now and will count you down to a penalty brake. If you're running on an approach in the cab (remember, the cab signal aspects just dictate max speed), you want to start slowing down before the next box where it drops to a restricting.

I do wonder if theres a trend starting of putting them on steam locomotives since Canadian Pacific 2816 and UP 4104 have had those systems added on board. Over un the shop for 576 theres been discussions lately on it though mostly just wondering how those other steam locos are implementing the system

Hi Mark, an excellent and fascinating tutorial about PTC. If I were an engineer, I would appreciate this as a safety tool that, as you said Mark, has my back. I didn’t realize just how integrated it is with the railroad systems. Quite an awesome bit of electronic engineering. As always Mark, I learned much from this clear and succinct discussion. Many thanks for making another great 101 video, I so look forward to watching them. And as always cheers to you Professor extraordinaire!

Love your content I'm addicted to locomotives since I could walk your videos are amazing it's great to get knowledge of how railroads run and what it takes to run them thank you for the great work

I love how easy it is for me to understand your videos

I have always wondered why the IHB and BRC in Chicago are not required PTC. They both transportation PIH and TIH tank cars. On BRC it exists only between two interlocking locations [Belt Junction and 80th St] where Amtrak and Metra cross the BRC. On the IHB it doesn’t exist at all. They were required to put split rail derails at CP Ridge and CP Canal. Both of those plants have diamonds that passenger trains cross.

Great video! I worked on the initial implementation in the locomotive facility in the Roseville yard in 2014-2015.

So many memes are popping into my head and none of them are the one you mentioned. Namely the one from Anchorman, "60% of the time it works everytime." And trying to wrap my mind around this I gave up and defaulted to "The Missile Knows Where it is." ( just youtube search it for the original like 70's audio for the Air Force's video on them trying to explain how their radar guided missiles worked.) It can be translated over to this though. "The Choo-choo knows where it is because it knows where it isn't and it knows where it isn't because it knows where it is." You'd just need to go find it for the entire garglemesh that is. It makes sense if you're able to comprehend it, like calculus, but what it actually benefits you personally in your life........Can't think of much.

Great job explaining this Hyce, thank you!

I'm interested in hearing more about steam because many have claimed PTC is one of the reasons that the N&W J 611 can no longer run mainline excursions since "there's no way to put it in a steam engine". We know they'd got exemptions for ditch lights but seemed odd they couldn't have something like that for PTC given all the things you pointed out (and then also usually extra precautions and security along the route to keep people off the tracks who want to see it)

Thank you for your typically wonderful explanation.

Thanks for clearing up the mystery for us laymen Hyce Grew up along and still live within earshot former CNW UP Janesville sub so I was familiar CNW's ATC that was why foreign power was always trailing and never leading when it was a CNW through route to the Twin Cities. Even under PTC the ATS system remained in place for some reason so for a couple years it was assured any of the very sparse freight traffic would hsve a pair of former CNW SD40-2s on point. Needless to say once the ATC was finally taken out of service a few years ago it was very odd seeing a grain extra come through town with a pure KCS consist

Great video! Learn a lot!

Thanks Hyce, as a Railroad Conductor currently this is exactly what PTC does. It’s not Full proof but it’s a backup. Still as a conductor I still have to know my territory and use the timetable charts and know where Quiet Zones are or speed restrictions are at to let the engineer know. Can’t be over speeding going into a siding. When there is a restricted speed going In or leaving out. Sometimes PTC does crap out on us so we have to follow through timetable and get word from Dispatch. But it is what is.

Trains, aircraft, road vehicles, and watercraft are all trending towards systems that inform operators or act independently when an unfavorable situation is predicted to occur. The current feature sets, level of implementation, and maturity of the various systems leads me to believe that the teams don't talk. Complete interoperability would be interesting. A mesh of every powered conveyance could relay important train or truck information through passing cars

5:58 like sending jersey to the house track

There was a system developed in the 1930's that could sense when a train passed an approach signal and if some action was not made by the engineer such as reducing the throttle or setting brakes the engine would do that automatically.

As someone who is waiting on the email to go to Georgia and train to be a conductor For Honse Sufferin this video is very helpful and gives me a better idea of how a system I'll be working with daily if i pass all my exams works and how it came about.

Hi Hyce great video bud keep up the great work 😁😁😁👍👍👍

Interesting and good video. Thanks for sharing.

Come now Hyce, we all know PTC means Pet The ChooChoo

Fun Fact - the Amtrak 91 Collision in Cayce, SC happened during a signals suspension to Install PTC. People claimed PTC would have prevented it. I have yet to find anyone who could adequately explain how PTC could have prevented an accident while PTC was intentionally shut down for maintenance.

You know, I'm not sure where ACS-64 number 600 is going to get without a wire overhead, but coal is conductive so I guess it works!

Lot of information here. I think as a result I have vaguely determine that my hometown mainline probably had PTC isntalled on it, but the sidings for serving the coal power plant and particle board plant probably didn't...

Great video thanks for the information. Cheers!

You touched on communications. Fun fact: CDMA, one of the very first telecommunication protocols for Cell Phones was primarily invented for transportation logistics(started with studies for Ships in the 1950's at MIT). It ended up in the SPRINT Telephone Network. Sound familiar? It should, Southern Pacific Railroad Internal Network Telecommunications.

Clear and concise. I retired long ago but PTC would have been welcome then as well, especially at slide fences

We used to have to stop and turn off PTC before we could enter one of our sidings the grade was too steep, and you had to get too close to the signal for PTC to cope with it.

Nice presentation!

That is a lot but i learned way more than i was expecting

A bit that you didn’t cover: When running without PTC on track that requires PTC your speed is limited to 49 mph. I believe but will have to look up the rule [we do it so rarely] that key trains are even more restricted.

This was fun. I understand that Ed and the crew at UP got PTC working on the 4014 so she can go off on photo ops by herself without a backup diesel ruining the photos. PTC on MOW? I see the need, the last week the CN has been working on track renewal with a focus on a junction turnout and a road crossing at the same time. The work crews have a set time to occupy the work zone, but that doesn't always mean the job is done on time. Several days in a row I've seen a train stop because of a MOW vehicle was still on the track. Single-track territory has to be a scheduling nightmare at times.

HYCE!!!! Whats up big bro, Hey just wanted 2 thank u 4 ur reply few months ago. I was going thru it n u made my day. 😊😊 Let me know if u make it to Japan. U would love our trains!!! C ya 😊😊😊😊😊😊😊

Just fully automating stuff seems "easy" and "coming soon" but just think about it. If let's say on a train for some reason a breakhose comes undone. A crew can go look at it, re-attach it and keep going. A computer can just sit there sending digital farts about breaks stuck, send help. Not to mention other issues humans can solve.

If it's designed to save lives and actually saves lives? I'm all for it ❤

*mentions FRA regulation* *looks ominously at SCOTUS having just overturned Chevron*

Something interesting about our railroad and work culture versus what is done in Japan is that the Japanese make sure that the people who operate the trains are operating under and enforcing the rules more effectively. We have to use technology to make sure that happens instead of making training more effective, because that takes timez and time is money. I suppose you could argue that our systems are much more vast and our workforce matches proportionally. I still find it to be a bit ironic.

Hyce does PTC measure distance in miles/feet or in meters? Example, our ATP used to measure in meters, even with the UK ECTS, though they use mph, the system measures in meters as far as I am aware. We use the measuring feature when the train dives underground and it becomes time to announce the station as one function. I used to think ATP is not such a cool thing but then I rethought about my position and that no one complains about pilots getting extra safety features, we as train crews deserve the extra help too. Safety is a good thing.

11:19 "...the back office that knows everything..."

PTC could have prevented this video... 😁🙃 Great vid dude, thank you

I’m curious about two things. 1) what are the exact requirements/restrictions on inhalation hazard, especially anhydrous ammonia? Our interchange partner is a class 3 shortline that runs quite a bit of AA but isn’t required to have PTC. 2) In theory could PTC be implemented on a line that doesn’t have any signals? The system could still enforce switch position, crossings and train position based on authority (mile post A to B for example).

So, on the subject of automation, the UK has run automated trains in London, on the Docklands Light Railway, since the late 80s. I understand early on, in the first 5 years or so, there were some issues, but it's been pretty reliable since. I'm not, of course, suggesting that this means all trains should be automated, clearly there's a variety of use cases for a railway/railroad, some of which will be more appropriate for automation than others.

PTC is great when it works. How does PTC work? Judging by my local railroad... Poorly. When you have a PTC hit at a given location given to every train that passes, for weeks on end, for no reason anyone from train crews to dispatchers can find..? Well, hurrah for PTC, can we get it working better please?

Commandment #7 of Negative Train Control (NTC): Instead of fusees, conductors and/or brakemen will drop a motion-detecting C4 explosive, with a fuse-like warning light. Ignore these new warning devices, you can kiss your ass goodbye!

@18:00-Hey! That looks like Philadelphia 30th Street.

When I hear stories and reports on accidents where "PTC could have prevented this", I am reminded of all the accidents I haven't heard of, because PTC did prevent them. Its not perfect system by any means, but it is forward progress.

So I have a Railroad question: what does the railroad do with the old wooden ties?

What make is that red lantern behind you? A buddy of mine got one and it looks quite similar. Keep up the awesome vids man!

Railroad could look up to the skies for a better version of PTC. TCAS works pretty good if you ask me.

Hmm, I don't know about the lower 48, but in Alaska we use a track warrant and not a form B. And its only between control points. An example: "Work between CPF040 and CPF084 on M"

Rio Tinto has only had 2 derailments since they implemented fully autonomous train operations a few years ago.

That system is really cool honestly, and I can definitely understand the drivers worry about losing jobs, but I honestly don't think the public would allow trains to drive autonomously when its not like an airport shuttle or something.

Boys, finally we got it

If there's anything you know about another one of Wabtec's systems (particularly Trip Optimizer), we would love to learn more what you know if it!

15:09 the “missile” knows where it is because it knows where it isn’t

one item I could see as an added Failsafe

Glad I don’t gotta run with that, bad enough they got tattletale cameras looking at us….

Hi, nice Video. I'm from germany and we have a system called PZB (somthing line piont shaped traincontrol in englisch), my question is would it be able to have this system on your line, specially if you have an independent network?

So PTC question: are steam engines grandfather in if they are newly built or do they need it in some form ie need a diesel after the steam engine, or built in? I ask this because I am having to do research for my short line and I might as well ask someone who knows PTC.

The original implementation date was end of 2015, but as the date approached it became very clear that, for various reasons (mostly not related to alleged feet-dragging by railroads), the date was totally infeasible. At that point it was pushed back to tghe end of 2018 or 2020; IIRC there was some rule about "if you're on track at the end of 2018 to get it done, we'll give you two more years, otherwise we'll start penalizing you in 2019" or something like that. The big advance I had heard about at the time for "PTC 2.0" involved "moving block signals" and possibly replacement of wayside signals. As mentioned, PTC enforces existing fixed-block signal indications, and is overlaid on top. A future system might just put all the signals in the cab, with nothing on the wayside. This means the "signal block" would move along with the train, instead of being based on the train moving past fixed positions. This would also allow for tighter train headways; no need to slow down for a signal that'll change as you approach it so long as you can match pace with the train in front of you, and stay far enough behind that you can stop if it does. I don't know if that's still a future goal for PTC.

Ok I watched the whole video and I understand the safety overlay idea and that there are mandatory 2 man crews. But regulations can change as technology gets better, I honestly believe railroads will automate. Not the entire system but I can see it being done to a point where mainline trains run crewless to certain points then have a crew take over for more complex sections or operations.

Good to know, that not only in some countries of the "old world" trains are ocassionally dumping the air for "no reason". We also have some shutdowns of the whole system at the station in particular big cities from time to time 😂 Btw. Do you have " axle temperature control" systems? At particular places of track they are checking for overheat. They can stop you too ;)

So i have a question about PTC, can a locomotive that is not equipped with PTC still lead a train, if a trailing locomotive has PTC would it still work on the mainline, or does it have to be equipped on the leading unit only?

With all this PTC stuff thats available, is there anything that senses a car on a rr crossing or other obstruction. Seems like sensors could be setup to signal red lights if there is something blocking a sensor while the train is inside the crossing 'block'. Do you know of any 'smart' rr crossings with extra safety features besides the arms?

I got a lot out of this. Speaking from an EE software standpoint Positive Train Control is in concept fundamentally different form past safety systems in that it has to give authorization for a train to move and keep moving verses a safety system that gives a warning or takes action when a fault is discovered. Discussing how the train has to be "initialized" with Positive Train Control was helpful in understanding the running of the system. With only radio GPS for location a train couldn't initialize in a tunnel or poor radio reception area. The work around for using dead reconning after initializing from a known location was interesting, but how do you move the train from not being able to initialize to a location it can? That off system PTC movement would have to place outside of the Positive Train Control systems operating model. For many previous decades when positive train control was discussed knowing the exact whereabouts of a train would require frequent track sensors and means to identify the particular train with that sensor. That is used in DC's Metro. Highly reliable radio satellite GPS has allowed much finer locating than might have been expected, but it is still radio subject to interference and doesn't work underground or in radio dead areas. It would seem that in such areas track sensors would be used. Having to be wired together and supplied power makes track train sensors are a significant electric data and power distribution system of its own. In a tunnel or trench situation that would seem acceptable. The fundamental operational problem with positive train control is everything has to work or have fail in redundancy to do the anything. It doesn't improve train movement efficiency. It would be key element in any responsible no onboard crewed train automated operation. Long haul freight trains requiring crews to overnight away from home has never seemed a good home life. Future PTC with automation was expected to allow long haul freight trains with nobody on board with a remote operating engineer and the trains being received by local persons in train yards. That wouldn't have a person on train to be there when an incident takes place. Video camera transmission would be hard to guarantee continuously that would proved the remote engineer with the train few. Except for special situation with good radio and few road crossing it still doesn't seem viable. The FRA requirement for two man crewed train operation to a rail fan doesn't seem like it should cost much to major freight railroads with all the other expenses of running a railroad. Incident handling with no crew or single person train crews would be more expensive per incident than if having two person crews. Looking to the next generation of train engineers having long haul freight trains run by an engineer in a remote office would mean no overnighting away from home and more regular working hours. Incident handling would be more difficult with nobody on board Any train stopping failure requiring getting access to a stranded train. It would seem regular no-crew-on-board operation would need a parallel track access path for utility vehicles to make this viable. A high railer could access to a stranded train by getting track access at a road crossing then get to one end of the stranded train. Then a train conductor would have to walk the ballast to find the issue which an on board conductor would have done immediately. This would take huge amounts over what would take place with simple incidents when having an onboard conductor.

Ugh, it takes SO much restraint to not make a bunch of trolley jokes, because these darned newfangled tech bro railroaders took Philadelphia Transportation Company’s acronym!

A good example of what ptc can't stop is the up iron ore train that set the land speed recored for north American freight trains at 155 mph before it hit the ground in Kelso.. Can't stop a train without breaks and a crew..

Ah, that's the thing 4014 got in order to be able to run without a helper diesel? Interesting

So how would this work for a train like 4014, would they just use the diesel that’s behind it? Sorry it’s probably a stupid question. Hope your having a good day!

is there any regulation surrounding how secure the ptc must be? on the subway trains I work on, you just go to coast, insert a key which is used for everything from opening the doors from outside, opening windows for ventilation, and disabling doors, and then you can bypass the atc, you can drive around with doors open, you can even bypass the sidetrip emergency switches with it. theres even a button for the operator to use it without the key, but it turns on lights on the outside which would give away the fact they have those features bypassed. which if they didnt call control and get permission first would get them in serious trouble. it just seems ridiculous to me how easy it to bypass the safety features, granted its nice not having to bend over backwards everytime i need to bring a train in or out of the shop. but its concerning knowing the operators might be bypassing them.

Now I've got a question about PTC's natural evolution, fully automated trains without an engineer on board. There's no way this goes wrong provided you have the existing PTC things in place, and add on to it from there, with the caveat that if you have anything other than automated trains running on the same network, all the safety goes out the window because humans are unpredictable and fickle things, while machines will only ever do EXACTLY (and only) what you program them to do. Point is, if something goes wrong with fully automated trains, a human's ultimately to blame for it, 100% of the time. The machine is never at fault, for the machine is fully deterministic. If it's not fully deterministic, it wouldn't work in the first place in any case.

What does PTS do if the GPS system can't identify where it is due to a solar event causing GSP devices to not be able to detect the faint satellite GPS signals?

CN's wording for it is zero is possible