To add to Gavin's comments about Origen, I'll mention some other relevant passages in Against Celsus. In 5:11, we're told that "we ought not to pray to beings who pray themselves". In 5:12, Origen writes, "It is wrong, then, to attempt to pray to a being who does not permeate the whole world such as the sun or moon or one of the stars." He tells us that "every prayer" is offered to God (7:51). In summary, "Away with Celsus' advice when he says that 'we ought to pray to demons [angels, whether good or bad]'. We ought not to pay the slightest attention to it. We ought to pray to the supreme God alone, and to pray besides to the only-begotten Logos of God" (8:26). The comments of both Celsus and Origen are best explained if the mainstream Christian view at the time was that we should pray only to God, not to saints or angels. For some comments from modern scholars about how Origen believed in praying only to God, see Henry Chadwick, ed., Origen: Contra Celsum (New York, New York: Cambridge University Press, 2003), n. 6 on p. 266; Robert Bartlett, Why Can The Dead Do Such Great Things? (Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2013), approximate Kindle location 4717; John McGuckin, ed., The Westminster Handbook To Origen (Louisville, Kentucky: Westminster John Knox Press, 2004), 38; Julia Konstantinovsky, ibid., 176. For example, McGuckin, in the source cited above, writes, "Origen is clear in this work [On Prayer] that prayer ought to be addressed to God the Father alone." Konstantinovsky, writes, "He [Origen] is also much concerned with the question, 'To whom should one pray?' In the Peri Euches [On Prayer] Origen states categorically that we 'must never pray to anything generated, not even to Christ' (PEuch 15.1) and that it is a 'sin of ignorance' to pray to Christ (idiotiken hamartian) (PEuch 16.1). In his later works, however, Origen seems to have changed this view and certainly allows prayer to be addressed directly to Christ (CCels 8.26; HomEx 13.3). In fact, he often addresses invocations of his own to the divine Christ."

The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him. Proverbs 18:17 Once again. Perfect.

Gavin I’m Orthodox. I’ve loved the back and forth on various topics between you, Joe and Trent especially. Y’all are laudatory examples of good faith discussion and I hope hard feelings never develop and this all can continue. God bless

Even more than convincing me of the points he is trying to make, Gavin has taught me to be humble and gracious in all of my interactions about theological differences. His tone is sharply different than so many of those who oppose him. Praise God!

"...God is infinite. If you have God, you get everything else thrown in." - Gavin That sums it up.

Dr. Ortlund is literally impossible. How can a human be so charitable and hospitable in the midst of blatant misrepresentation and borderline insult? I legitimately thank the Lord for people like Gavin to set a Godly example of how to love your neighbors.

The common catholic argument I hear of “don’t you ask your friends here on earth to pray for you… why can’t you ask the saints in heaven…” to be misleading, particularly when referring to prayers to Mary. It seems like Marian devotion is so much more than merely “asking a friend to pray for me.” I need not “devote” myself to my friend in order to ask him to pray for me. I would disagree with prayer to Mary and to saints, even without the pomp and circumstance of Marian devotion. But if the process of these prayers was much simpler and more like “hey friend, could you pray for me” then maybe the matter could move down on the theological triage scale for me.

Thank you for always engaging with Catholics and doing it so charitably. I'd love to see a flowering of Protestant and Catholic apologetics online if it happens with such loving and thoughtful disposition. Our Lord is benefited by his followers coming together even when our differences are so serious and consequential. Love and prayers ❤️🙏

As an evangelical Christian I would not dare to pray to Mary the mother of Jesus or to the Apostles Peter, John, or Paul even though all four saints are in heaven with Christ. To pray to the saints would indicate that one believes the Lord Jesus Christ is not our only intercessor with God the Father which would be heresy. Prayers to the saints would be wrong even if one does not worship them.

A large percentage of Joe Heschmeyer's response is irrelevant. 2 Maccabees 15:12-16 is about a vision. A knowledgeable Protestant won't deny that we can speak with saints, angels, or other beings who appear to us in a context like a vision or in more ordinary circumstances (Mary's speaking with Gabriel in the context of the annunciation, John's speaking with angels in Revelation, etc.). That's a significantly different context than prayer. Similarly, Tobit 12:15 in the form in which Joe quotes it, like Revelation 5:8 and 8:4, is about the presentation of prayers before God. It doesn't follow that the angels (or saints in Revelation 5) are the ones being prayed to. Revelation 5:8 doesn't just mention elders. It also mentions the four living creatures. Are we to pray to them as well? When angels are referred to as carrying bowls of wrath (Revelation 16:2), we don't conclude that the angels therefore are the recipients of the wrath. Furthermore, when other passages in Revelation allude to the prayers of Revelation 5, the most natural implication is that the prayers were addressed to God and were asking Him for justice on earth. This is documented by Richard Bauckham in his chapter on prayer in Richard Longenecker, ed., Into God's Presence (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 2001), 252-71. As Bauckham explains, Revelation 5:8, 8:3-4, 9:13-14, and 14:18 have similar terminology and imagery. The phrase "golden bowl full" is used in both Revelation 5:8 and 15:7. It seems that the wrath described in 15:7 is in response to the prayers of the saints. In 6:9-10, we see the martyred saints asking God for justice. And the incense altar associated with the prayers of the saints in 8:3-4 is referred to again in 9:13-14 and 14:18 in connection with God's exercising justice on earth. It seems that the best explanation of the prayers in Revelation 5 and Revelation 8 is that they're prayers to God, asking for justice on earth. They aren't prayers to saints or angels. The earliest patristic commentators on Revelation 5:8 refer to the prayers in that passage as being offered to God, not to the elders. We see this in Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 4:17:6-4:18:1), Origen (Against Celsus, 8:17), and Methodius (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, 5:8), for example. And though the angel in Tobit has a lot of knowledge of events on earth, who denies that angels sometimes have that sort of knowledge, especially if they've been sent on a task that's relevant to such knowledge? It doesn't follow that we can assume that any angel we want to pray to has any knowledge that would be needed in the context of that prayer. Likewise, as Gavin explains in the video above, the account of the rich man and Lazarus is irrelevant. Communication between two individuals in the afterlife is a significantly different context than prayer from somebody on earth to somebody in heaven (or prayer to an angel while you're in this life on earth). Concerning Matthew 27:47, the bystanders are likely Roman soldiers (suggested by their not understanding what Jesus said, their being allowed to go up to the cross and offer Jesus a drink, and the parallel between Matthew 27:48 and Luke 23:36). They're portrayed as ignorant, misinformed, and unbelieving. People often suggested that Jesus did things they disapproved of (Matthew 11:19, 12:24). The bystanders could easily be attributing something to Jesus that they considered an unacceptable practice, something they thought Jews in general would reject (if the bystanders weren't Jews themselves), or something they were agnostic about. The bystanders' attempt to explain what Jesus said doesn't suggest they thought that what he said was good, a common practice, or anything like that. And Matthew doesn't indicate his approval of what they said. To the contrary, he portrays them as ignorant, misinformed, and unbelieving, as I mentioned above. At 43:14 in his second video, Joe cites section 5:19:1 in Irenaeus' Against Heresies. But go to the footnote on the passage in the version of Irenaeus' work at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library web site to see how vague the terminology is. And Eve is the person referred to by Irenaeus in connection to Mary in this context. How would Eve pray to Mary in any relevant way when Eve died before Mary came into existence? If Eve prays to Mary in some afterlife context, then that, once again, is irrelevant. Joe is making a point about a broader sort of intercession of Mary involving prayer, but the passage he cites in Irenaeus is about Eve, and it isn't about praying to Mary. Furthermore, Irenaeus' comments on prayer suggest that he believed in praying only to God. I discuss the evidence in a July 11, 2023 post titled "Did Irenaeus condemn prayer to angels?" at Triablogue. As Gavin mentions in the video above, there are multiple patristic sources in the early centuries who oppose praying to beings other than God. In addition to the examples Gavin mentioned and Irenaeus, we also have evidence for such a view in other sources. Yet, Joe repeatedly makes comments in his second video suggesting that there wasn't such opposition to praying to saints and angels. See Joe's comments at roughly 49:35 regarding how we don't see opposition to something like praying to Mary; at 54:00 about how it's "really clear that they pray to the saints, but they don't worship them"; at 58:50 about how there's "no outcry" when we do see prayer to saints in the historical record. But there are comments against praying to saints and angels among a lot of early sources, and there is opposition to such prayers expressed after such praying becomes popular later on. See the examples discussed in Matthew Dal Santo's Debating The Saints' Cult In The Age Of Gregory The Great (United Kingdom: Oxford University Press, 2012). It's one of the issues brought up by Vigilantius and the church leaders who supported him, and there's a large stream of medieval sources who opposed such prayers. One of the issues Dal Santo addresses in his book is how a belief in soul sleep among some of the sources produced "radical" (308) and "profound" (315) differences in how the cult of the saints was perceived from one source to another. So, we not only see a lot of pre-Reformation sources opposing prayer to saints and angels, but we also see significant variation in how the cult of the saints was thought to operate among those who accepted praying to the saints. Joe appeals to a lack of early evidence. But keep in mind that prayer has existed since the earliest days of human history. Joe appeals to 2 Maccabees and Tobit, which are sources of the Old Testament era, and he provided no reason to think that praying to saints (or angels) could only start happening in the New Testament era, so all of human history is relevant here. We have many thousands of pages of literature and other material from many sources over many centuries. Prayer is discussed explicitly and often, with thousands upon thousands of references to prayer to God in the Bible and the early patristic literature. Entire treatises were written on the subject of prayer. Believers write to each other about prayer, ask each other for prayer, discuss the afterlife and other subjects relevant to praying to saints and angels, etc. The idea that we have to wait until, say, the fourth century A.D. to have a significant level of knowledge of who people prayed to for thousands of years leading up to that time is absurd. Why would prayer to saints and angels just happen to keep not getting mentioned across so many sources over so many centuries, even though prayer to God keeps getting mentioned explicitly and frequently?

Wow that is remarkably bad. I see now why you had to make this video, not only because of his mis presenting you but also trying to make Origen say exactly the opposite of his repeated point.

Love all your videos brother!! A true follower of Christ! Thank you!

As a Presbyterian who is considering Catholicism I’ve really appreciated your work Gavin! I believe you’re very knowledgeable, articulate and sincere and it’s rly disheartening to see misunderstandings and misrepresentations from both sides which is part of the reason I really appreciate folks like you who genuinely examine and try to understand the “other side”. Thanks!

Thanks Dr. Ortlund! I think what you said at the end of your video about “prayer matters and who you pray to matters!”. Never thought about that all the prayer examples provided in Old and New Testament are directed to God alone. Beautiful! 🙏🙌

Thanks. I only pray to God. ❤

Are there any examples in the Bible of living people praying to dead ones? I only can think of people praying to God.

This makes SO MUCH SENSE! It doesn’t tangle anything anyone says about prayer. It is crystal clear what Origen is saying re: prayer. No acrobatics, no twisty turns, no misrepresentation. I appreciate that.

Pastor Ortlund, you are being very kind and generous to state that the misrepresentation of your positions by Mr. Heschmeyer you do not believe to be intentional.

If we are to pray to the saints and Mary, who did the Apostles and Mary pray to? What prayers did the Apostles pass on that we are to imitate? This issue is a catch 22 to begin with and it is rather more likely that prayers to the saints was foreign to the Apostles and their immediate successors and thus a later invention.

Thank you for covering this topic! It's a very important issue that needs to be addressed. You did an excellent job of fully covering Origen's teachings on the matter. It's no doubt that he believed that prayer was to be given to God alone.

I appreciate how kind you were to someone who so clearly lied about you and lied about Origen. That was way beyond inadvertent misunderstanding.

Gavin thank you so much not only for making this response to clarify the completely incorrect views that Joe was putting into both your and Origen's mouths, but even more so for the spirit you do it in. I think a lot of people would just start name calling and pointing angry fingers after being treated the way you have been here - and not for the first time here either. But instead of responding with what most would believe is justifiable anger at what you could have easily called slander you modeled Christian compassion, and love by assuming no ill intent. It's because of this that I think your efforts have a real and tangible impact on drawing Christians of different denominations together, rather than digging the trenches that separate them even deeper. You pursue truth and even when confronted with - what could very well be accidental - lies being told about you and your views, you're still behaving with grace and compassion. God bless you for that, and all the work you do. May it continue to knit people closer to Christ, and each other.

God bless you brother for the clarity you bring, and your delivery of these topics. You are a blessing to the body in the YT age.

So according to Catholics, we pray to the saints so that they intercede to God on our behalf but the only way they can hear our prayer requests is if God reveals our prayers to them. What kind of convuluted bureaucractic system is this?

“Pray to God alone”. Amen! People do what they want to do and disregard the will of God. Just because other people do it doesn’t mean you have to do it. Ask God for discernment…praying to anyone other than God is a dishonor to our creator.

One of the things I appreciate the most about your work here is that along with your pastor’s heart you bring a scholar’s discernment and breadth of study to popular conversations. We need much more of that all around. Many of the other apologists, both Catholic and Protestant, just don’t bring that.

When they ask for Mary’s intercession, would that be in place of the Holy Spirit? That seems blasphemous.

I watched some of the videos and I was very aware of how Joe misrepresented you and almost seemed to scoff at you. I read the comments made by his followers and many of them did accuse you of being a liar. So I am glad you have now responded. Trouble is most of his followers won’t even watch this. Obviously I am a Protestant and I wrote many responses to the comments his followers made - especially regarding the one about praying to the saints being pagan and the one before that about devotion to the saints getting in the way of focusing on Jesus. I feel that I may as well have been speaking to a stone wall! They are totally dedicated to Mary and the saints - and only God by His grace can change their minds. But we have to speak out as we are told to defend the faith. We can only pray for them that they will come to a knowledge of the truth by God’s grace. K

As a Catholic I enjoy all these back and forth videos. Let people watch these different views and make up their own minds.

Not only is it the saints praying for us and not the reverse, it also doesn't say the saints pray TO us. Like if Paul was praying and asking me to help him with something, he is going to be extremely disappointed.

Hey Gavin, I really think you should make a video addressing the claim by Catholics that the entire church fathers were Roman Catholic, it’s a really popular claim among Catholics and I’ve never seen a protestant apologist really tackle that claim.Highly recommended for later!!

Advocates of praying to saints and angels occasionally suggest that people like Origen were only criticizing offering a higher form of prayer to created beings, whereas it was acceptable to offer them a lower form of prayer. But the burden of proof is on the shoulders of those who want us to accept that view. Origen generally just uses a term like "pray" or "prayer" without further qualification, which suggests that he didn't have the relevant sort of qualified sense in mind. He makes a distinction between how we should pray "more" to the Father than to the Son (Against Celsus, 5:11). Henry Chadwick's rendering of the closing sentence of section 5:4 of Against Celsus has Origen writing, "We will even make our petitions to the very Logos himself and offer intercession to him and give thanks and also pray to him, if we are capable of a clear understanding of the absolute and the relative sense of prayer." (Origen: Contra Celsum [New York, New York: Cambridge University Press, 2003], 266) We make that kind of distinction between praying to the Father and praying to the Son when interpreting Origen because Origen tells us that he held that view. By contrast, we haven't been given any evidence that he believed in some other form of prayer to be offered to saints and angels. To the contrary, when responding to Celsus' criticism of Christians for not praying to angels, Origen doesn't respond by explaining that they do pray to angels with a form of prayer that's lesser than the form offered to God. Rather, he just denies that Christians pray to angels (and other created beings). And these principles I've applied to Origen can be applied to other sources as well. It's not as though it's just a higher form of prayer to saints and angels that's absent in scripture and the earlier patristic sources. Rather, there isn't a lower form of prayer to saints and angels either. And the Biblical and extrabiblical condemnations of attempting to contact the deceased and praying to angels don't add any qualifiers to the effect that it's only wrong to pray to them in a higher sense, whereas we can pray to them in a lesser sense. Instead, the evidence suggests that in the context Protestants and Catholics are focused on, the relevant Biblical and extrabiblical sources only prayed to God.

Thank you Dr. Ourtlund!

Whenever I think about this topic I immediately think of King David and the Psalms. The Psalms generally read like prayers to me. Not once does David plead with or exalt anyone other than the God. I think that if we could expect to see prayers or requests to angels anywhere in the Bible it would be in Psalms or Job for that matter. I know this is technically and argument from silence but idk this is where my mind always goes.

I like the new intro!

I am a 66 book adherent and do pray FOR the angles and saints, even for their life as it was/is/willbe (according to my perspective), as well preach the gospel to the whole world around me (yes, even plants and animals). To ask of anyone besides the creator (that sustains all things) be they presently dead or alive seems like asking the impossible from our broken state, but I do appreciate the prayers of my brothers and sisters.

You should adopt Trent Horn’s rebuttal rule. I haven’t gotten into your rebuttal yet but I have a feeling it’s going to get confusing with you rebutting his rebuttal of you 😅

Gavin, God is using you in this KZfaq ministry. I could feel you holding back your frustration on this one. Keep leaning on Christ even when you’re miss-represented, you’re serving as an example for us all in your patience & kindness in the face of unfair criticism!

Gavin, I sincerely hope you address more of the arguments Joe brought up, especially the quotes found in Tobit and the story of Lazarus. He made some very strong arguments there.

Your voice sounds so much deeper than usual Gavin !!

I love this. Listening to you is a breath of fresh air. I always anticipate your videos. God bless you and your family ❤🙏

I have a question, I am not sure if this has been asked before though. What would your response be to certain miracles which have occured from Saintly intercession? Many of the miracles of the medieval era were attributed to intercessory prayer to a saint, so how should we view those? What was the source or cause of the miracles? How should we view them historically?

In regards to prayers to the saints - there are over 2000 prayers to the saints etched into the catacombs and intercessory prayer to the Saints is found in all of the early liturgies. Are we really to believe that these things were added into the fabric of Christian belief and not actually long-standing practice once the liturgies were formalized? In that regard it seems highly improbable that prayer to the saints was a pagan practice that somehow crept into Christian faith and worship. Indeed EVERY Church that has an organic connection to Christ (eg: the orthodox, orientals, Coptic and Catholic) through apostolic succession and the laying on of hands embrace the practice. Just seems improbable that these churches got it wrong - especially when one considers that these were the same Christian’s being fed to the Lions for their faith (at least the Christian’s who were writing these prayers in the Catacombs).

Hi Gavin. Thank you for these very helpful videos. Please consider doing videos on 1) sola fide 2) short overview video of main differences between protestants and catholics (letting us know what is most important out of these) 3) the five solas

Catholics don't seem to grasp the difference between asking for the intercession of saints on earth whom you can contact by natural means, and trying to contact saints who have died. The assumption that saints in heaven can hear us is ascribing to them a supernatural breadth of knowledge and ability that, as far as we know, belongs only to God.

Can you list your original videos that Joe is responding to in your description?

Thank you Gavin for your videos and good information. I don’t understand all this hostility and anger and frustration to you regarding the researched material you provide and discuss. Your videos are a great educational source of information and I am grateful to God that you explain Christian beliefs and theology. I also love when you provide the sources and the books that you recommend to others to read and explore.

I am catholic. And i really appiciate you Gavin. Your attitude is so refresing. Dont take things to personal. You have good intentions and everybody knows it. I dissagree with uou. But thats allowed. And my believes doesnt say anything about your intensions. Keep up the great work.

Um. Ok, something is bothering me about one of the Origen quotes discussed in the video… and it’s concerning salvation. At around minute 24, the quote shown says, “for they see demons warring and fighting most keenly against the salvation of those who devote themselves to God,” ……. Um… does this mean Origen believed salvation could be lost? 😳

Mr. Ortlund, where to find text version for all of your video? I think I need to read it to have better understanding.

Great response

When did the word “propitiation” come about and does it mean the exact same thing as atonement?

Nicely done

Very nice as always.

"We, however, do not take the parables as sources of doctrine, but rather we take doctrine as a norm for interpreting the parables." - Tertullian

I enjoy listening to these topics while working at home

Thank you so much for this video AND all of the others that I will be BINGE watching talking about the Roman Catholic Church. This year...after 28 years of marriage and 8 kids....my husband and kids are working through the membership class to join the Catholic church......we've been Protestants until this year and I am having such a hard time understanding WHY they are doing this. Your videos have helped me to NOT THINK THAT IT'S JUST ME and that I"M CRAZY for disagreeing with them! Thank you for taking the time to educate those of us about these issues so that we can better understand and better argue our Protestant side. THANK YOU!

It seems crazy that believers would step around (God's gift) the Holy Spirit and plead to a mere mortal for help. To me, it's similar to God giving His commandments and the elders 'tweaking' it for Him.

You mention the Sequence In Praise of the Virgin at about 7:08. Could you tell us where you got that from? I.e. a book/article/website? I can't find it anywhere, unless you're getting it straight from the Latin or some other language?

I've been listening to a fair amount of Lofton. Some responses are good, but a lot seems to be incomplete and changing the focus. The shorter responses is better than 4 hours.

Michael Scott: "[You misrepresented me] when I specifically asked you not to?"

God bless you Gavin and your Christ-like engagement with other believers. Your teachings are a blessing.

Hey, Dr. Ortlund, how would you respond to a Catholic who says, “Sure Origen said not to pray to anyone but God, but he didn’t say not to ask deceased saints or angels to pray to God for us”? Many Catholics don’t think they’re praying to saints and angels, but asking them to pray for them.

I've been following this back-and-forth between Gavin and Joe, and really appreciate Gavin's work on this subject. I still think Joe brought up a really good point with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. At the end of the day, I think the question is whether we'd consider prayer to be a form of worship that is due to God alone. It is a bit odd that we are permitted to talk to angels if they show themselves to us, but cannot talk to them if we cannot see them. It's a similar thing with the saints, and we have examples of Christ doing that on the Mount of transfiguration. In my estimation, if Moses and Elijah were invisible on the Mount of transfiguration, the debate would be settled in favor of intercessory prayer. I'm starting to understand prayer to just be a means of communication with invisible beings. If prayer is inherently a form of worship, then by what means would Job have cursed God? As far as I'm concerned, Job would have used prayer to curse God, making prayer not an inherent means of worship.

Always encouraged by your patience in the midst of gross misrepresentation

Dr. Ortlund, Your videos have been encouraging to me as I ask tough questions. I would appreciate your prayers as I investigate these questions. My biggest one is probably about John 20:23. I think I have never heard a good Protestant perspective on this verse. Especially not one that relates to the Church Fathers. It seems to me that it used often for evidence for the neccesity of auricular confession and apostolic succession. Do you know any place I could find one? Thank you!

Parabéns pelo vídeo pastor. Uma sugestão: faça um vídeo sobre o que o catolicismo entende por ANATEMA.

I don't think Joe was necessarily pointing all these arguments toward you. He mentioned that you were active on the topic and just started talking about protestants at large in his slight defense. Great work, I respect you both

I watched a video from joe where he said that reformed theology did not acknowledge the Eucharist as a type of sacrifice, which was so false I told him that the reformers spoke of sacrifice but denied an oblation, he responded and I pointed him to Turretin and he would not respond when I asked him if he understood the difference no response, no acknowledgement of his violence to the truth

Dr. Ortlund...I have noticed a more aggressive tone toward u among Catholics u have dialogued with in the past such as Joe. The foundation of ur efforts is to seek and spread the truth of the gospel. The foundation of the effort of Catholics is to support the Catholic church, which results in a form od disingenuousness, whether consciously or unconsciously. I understand u may disagree with me given ur comments about acccusing someone of being disingenuous. But the reality is, the more effective u r at spreading the truth of the gospel and revealing errors of the Catholic church, the more aggressive (and potentially disingenuous) the responses will be. U r doing a fantastic job and u r a true blessing to so many. Don't be discouraged. Keep up the fight. U r making an impact on the lives and salvation of so many. U r in my prayers.

While he was alive, Catholics used to come to Padre Pio and ask him to pray for them. Padre Pio would counsel them to pray to their guardian angel, who would then take the prayer to Padre Pio (who apparently existed in heaven while he was on earth?) , and then, apparently, Pio would pray to God for the requested intercession. Or perhaps it was the extended version: Pray to guardian angel, to pray to Pio, to pray to Mary, to pray to Jesus, to pray to God the Father, in hope that He would rubber-stamp the intercession. There are the byzantine lengths that prayer to the saints can evolve into.

I didn't get the rebuttal on parabels. You say that we need to interpret parabels as parabels, but interpreting them imply that we extract the litteral meaning from them. So, what would be the litteral meaning of the parabel used to argue in favor of praying to the saints?

This isn't dirrectly to do with the video , I plan to watch it later, But in your opinion who is the leading protestant today? If I could make a suggestion, there is an elderly protestant church leader in the US who I love in christ named Chuck Swindol. My suggestion is perhaps you could make a positive video about protestants in adition to your videos advocating protestism. I don't know of any other 'man of God' that who is as relentless as Chuck Swindol in getting his heart right for God. So there is my suggestion. God bless you also Gavin for your heart, I was seriously considering Orthodox Christianity untill I found your videos.

All fairly said and well argued, Gavin. Thank you!

In 'On Prayer', I think around chapter 10, Origen breaks down prayer into 4 different types, and some of these types of prayer he says can be directed to saints. Therefore, he supports prayers to saints. Where Origen says prayers should be to God alone, I think he's describing a certain type of prayer.

Gavin do you have a longer version of your intro song?

Brilliant and well said !! God bless you Dr.Ortlund

_Pray_ tell, if there’s any issue with the word “prayer” in English

Summa Theologia, Second part of the second part, Question 83, Article 4. I don’t really see the difference between Origen’s position and Aquinas’

Thank you, Gavin. Appreciate you brother. Do you have a list of many if not all the references of the types of prayers you mentioned are in divine scripture?

The doctrine of the intercession of the saints is as "late" as the doctrine of the Trinity or the canon. The truth is that it is a practice deeply rooted in the apostolic Churches, tested by centuries of persecution and martyrdom and by the real experience of the community of intercessory prayer between those Saints who have died and those who were about to be killed. It expresses a communitarian vision of the Church that death cannot destroy and that unites the militant Church with the triumphant Church in the Body of Christ. Intercessory prayer takes place in Christ, by Christ and through Christ, the one who opened the gates of heaven to us and, in the transfiguration, showed us something of the cloud of witnesses and of the assembly of faithful and perfected spirits to which we have access. In the end, everything comes from Christ and goes to Christ, we can never forget that. In Mary's case, it is possible and understandable that there are exaggerations here and there. Mary is Mother of God (of Jesus in whom the fullness of divinity dwells) and Mother of the Church, that is, of all who follow him. Who has never exaggerated when praising their mother?

It seems like a lot of this comes down to how the word 'prayer' is defined. Protestants seem to have a rather strict definition of the word 'prayer', where as Catholics have a much more elastic definition of the word.

Will you tackle Seraphim Hamilltons' (Kabane's) videos on icon veneration responding to you?

Is Origen a saint of the orthodox church aswell? I just started to engage with the church father's, so don't mind my question please😊

With your video, many will believe in soul sleep. Many people today to get healed because of the intercessory prayer of the saints.

Gavin can you please do a video on how to interpret Adam & Eve and the Fall in light of a Theistic Evolutionary paradigm? I hear some say there was a historical Adam, some that he is a type or archetype and some that he is the representation of Israel. Thanks in advance and I love the content you’ve been putting out.

Hello Gavin. Sure would be neat to have a list of Church Father quotes on praying directly to God. In other words Church Fathers that are in accord with Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Paul, Peter, John, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses, David, Daniel, Ezequiel, and the whole entire Word of God.

Gavin - I generally believe you are correct in terms of Origen. The only ambiguous thing(to me) is Chap 14 of “On Prayer” which you allude to. The high Anglican protestant scholar Dom Gregory Dix thought this was evidence that Origen thought it “ lawful and usual for Christians to pray to the saints (he means deceased saints in context) and to thank them for benefits to be received through their intercession.” (Page 346, at fn1). I note he also sees the “down arrow” (clearly enough) in Chap 6. However, when I read Chap 14 it is not clear to me (of course I don’t speak /read Greek and I assume Dom Dix did). Also it would be hard to reconcile with Chap 15 and 16 which speaks of “to God alone” and “through Christ” as you mention. Interestingly, the editor of the ACW series speculates that not praying “to Christ” but only to the Father through Christ was meant to only apply by Origen to solemn Liturgical Prayer. Which raises an interesting point. The same could be said of intercession of the Saint/Angels. Why do I say this? Well as many liturgical scholars have pointed out (Bouyer and more recent scholars), it appears that the oldest Eucharistic Prayer we have may be the Roman Canon - almost certainly more primitive than the EO anaphoras (precisely because the Roman Canon lacks an explicit epiclesis). Anyway, the Roman Canon in fact is entirely addressed to the Father through the Son, and does not directly address the Saints to ask for their intercession. Instead in the prayer to the Father, when referencing the list of Saints , “we ask that through their merits and prayers, in all things we may be defended by your protecting help.” And there is evidence that this phrase was present in the time of Ambrose and Augustine (too detailed a point to go into for this already long comment). The Roman Canon (EP1 in today’s lingo) is still preserved in this manner when used today in the reformed mass- the Catholic Church is generally very conservative liturgically. And actually the newer EP’s also don’t directly petition the Saints but like the Roman Canon, also acknowledge them in the prayer to God. It is only in the Liturgy of the Word, in the first part of the Mass that the Saints are directly petitioned as part of the Confiteor (also true at the time Bellarmine was writing as he points out). I am speaking of the ordinary mass liturgy apart from special occasions such as the Easter Vigil when the litany of the Saints is prayed (and not speaking of the Divine Office either). So I view the Roman Canon as some good evidence of the most primitive practice of the Church liturgically (Confiteor was later). Direct invocations of assistance to the Saints would appear, in my view, to have developed first outside the liturgy and then 1) became more effusive over time in non-liturgical prayer and 2) were slowly and conservatively adopted only into the certain points in the liturgy - some examples being the two I gave above and others would be in EO some of the direct prayers to Mary at certain times (though the EO also more often only indirectly acknowledge the prayers of the Saints in a prayer to God). You would view this development as a illegitimate accretion. I view it as a legitimate development even if one would grant that some of the prayers to Mary outside the normative mass you cite are arguably too effusive. So we would differ on the development both of private prayer and liturgical prayer as legitimate or illegitimate. But I would also put the shoe on the other foot -the Protestants, at the very least, threw out the baby with the bathwater. They brutally removed all acknowledgement in prayer TO GOD of the Angels and Saints intercession for us from the Eucharistic Prayers. No such language has ever been restored even in confessional Lutheran churches (which are “high church”). It is possible such language appears in high Anglican liturgy - be glad to hear of it from any high Anglicans in this comment section. Thus, to me the Protestants did clearly remove an ancient practice of the early Church (likely in place in Origen’s time but almost certainly by the time of Ambrose/Augustine) of acknowledging and thanking God in Liturgical Prayer for the intercessions of the Saints /Angels. I would view this as a serious departure from the “rule of faith” and what we view as “Sacred Tradition” although I am sure you disagree. God Bless.

You don't understand their hostility because you're a genuinely nice guy as well as very well informed. People who depend upon deception to keep doing what they're doing are often very hostile toward anyone who speaks the truth. Contrary to your channel name, lol - Truth also tends to expose the baddies among us, and it should.

Gavin, if I remember correctly Joe mentioned in one of his videos that your issue is not that asking the saints is any different from asking a friend to pray for us, but that you don't think saints in heaven are aware of precisely what we are praying for, rather just in a general sense that we need prayers. Is that correct? It seems we are getting stuck on the word pray, as can be seen in many of you quotes from Origen (i.e. pray only to God, etc.). Are we aware of what exactly Origen is intending by the word "pray"? If I were to ask you to pray for me, I would not describe that as me praying to you. That is why Trent put out a video titled "4 phrases Catholics should stop using with Protestants" where he mentions that we shouldn't say praying to the saints, rather invoking the intercession of the saints. Is it possible that Origen was using the word "pray" differently than how you are interpreting him or modern Christians would understand it? If so, then it would make sense for him to say pray only to God while also accepting invoking the intercession of the saints if he didn't consider them to be the same thing. Just some thoughts, would love to hear your response.

@Truthunite What Do you think with Catholic Truth KZfaq channel Responding to You on Protestantism????????? Will you Respond????

Joe just released another video, "Proving that the Saints in Heaven Hear Our Prayer". I don't think he proves this, but it doesn't matter. Catholics will always pray to saints because their church tradition has taught it for a long time. It definitely wasn't taught from the beginning, or we would see some scriptural precedence for it, and we don't. We have a different understanding of who the prayers of the saints are that the angel releases, in Revelation. They are our prayers, the living saints, and the bible is always addressing the living Christians when it talks of saints. So protestants don't pray to saints, because we do believe in the foundation of the apostles and how they taught the church. They did not do or teach this practice. It became a practice several centuries after the church was established. It's a tradition, and one that we don't follow. Let all be blessed and do all to the glory of God and the benefit of those who struggle in this world.

I don't understand the Gospel, so my pursuit of truth is often tainted with motives of vainglory, but I would hope that, even if for the sake of vainglory-tainted desire to know truth, and be seen as someone who is honest, I would not so openly misrepresent someone. I mean, it just makes you look like you need a little extra help comprehending your "opponent" when you do that. Sadly, his fans will not call him out for misrepresenting.

There are others that were looking for Gavin's original video that Joe (on the Shameless Popery) is replying to, so here is the link: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ireChJCTx9O6pn0.html Gavin has supplied links to Joe's rebuttal videos in the description box above.

Gavin, Catholic here who really appreciates your content and the approach to discussions that you model! I’m also a fan of Joe’s and looking forward to his response to this since you seem to be correct in your reading of Origen and I’m interested to see how he explains his reading. One criticism I would offer here is that I think you go overboard in your claims of misrepresentation in a rather unhelpful way. To take just one example - Joe addressed your pagan origins of Marian devotion comment - and then you took issue with that and said it wasn’t even the focus of your video. From a Catholic perspective though, it’s really problematic that you would throw that claim out there and then not bother to try and back it up. We hear that thrown at us a lot, and I think that Joe felt (rightly) that your viewers would likely just accept that idea uncritically. As an aside, I would love to see a dialogue between you two in the future on Mary - I really enjoyed the ones you had on Church History and the Papacy! Peace!

9:36 But all Joe was saying here is that it’s not medieval. It’s early.

“Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . ” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

St. Augustine, who was there at Hippo and Carthage when the Church, Catholic Bishops meeting in snyods, decided (declared) the canon of scripture. The martyrs only know our prayers through the power of God, offerings made to God in the name of Peter, Paul (and those Saints who have died; Rev 5:8, 8:3) “As to our paying honor to the memory of the martyrs, and the accusation of Faustus, that we worship them instead of idols, I should not care to answer such a charge, were it not for the sake of showing how Faustus, in his desire to cast reproach on us, has overstepped the Manichaean inventions, and has fallen heedlessly into a popular notion found in Pagan poetry, although he is so anxious to be distinguished from the Pagans. For in saying that we have turned the idols into martyrs, be speaks of our worshipping them with similar rites, and appeasing the shades of the departed with wine and food… *It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers.* But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints’ burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to thee, O Peter! or O Paul! or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. The emotion is increased by the associations of the place, and. love is excited both towards those who are our examples, and towards Him by whose help we may follow such examples. We regard the martyrs with the same affectionate intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life, when we know that their hearts are prepared to endure the same suffering for the truth of the gospel. There is more devotion in our feeling towards the martyrs, because we know that their conflict is over; and we can speak with greater confidence in praise of those already victors in heaven, than of those still combating here.” Augustine, Against Faustus, 20:21 (A.D. 400).

Dr Ortlund could you possibly address this quote I found from cyprian? Genuinely curious and seeking for guidance. Blessings🙏 Cyprian of Carthage “Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

I would personally make a slight argument from silence regarding praying to saints and entreating Mary. There is just so little mention of Mary from the church fathers in the first few centuries - exactly the time when you would think her "star would be on the rise."