PrintNC Foam Filled X-Gantry Upgrade!

Рет қаралды 20,786

Күн бұрын

The topic of filling the frame of the PrintNC with some sort of either expanding or solid cast material comes up all the time in discussion and questions. I thought I would take a shot at filling the X-gantry with some expanding Polyurethane foam and see if I could evaluate whether there were any improvements from this effort, and help others decide if its worth their investment.
Polyurethane Foam is a 6lb Marine grade product from totalboat.com
www.totalboat.com/product/tot...
00:00 - Intro
01:30 - Baseline Configuration Cutting Assessment
02:42 - Aluminum End Caps
03:40 - Expanding Polyurethane Foam
05:37 - X-Gantry Foam Filling
07:54 - Foam Filled Cutting Assessment
09:06 - Side By Side Comparison
09:21 - Final Thoughts
Check out my Affiliate link for the Expanding Polyurethane Foam if you are interested in trying something similar or have an alternative project to work with it on.
amzn.to/3jKqynQ

Пікірлер: 97

@gizmobowen 3 жыл бұрын

It's so cool to see someone actually do this instead of just talking about it. Plus you even tried to quantify the changes. So many people want to do things and other people just shut them down, even if they don't have experience to back up their opinion. Now you and the rest of us know that this doesn't necessarily provide the result you were hoping for. You don't know if you don't try. Kudos to you sir! BTW, I'd like to try putting in something like grout into m PrintNC but I know I'm too chicken to try.

@Jeralddoerr 3 жыл бұрын

I guess it's good so other people don't do this... But the problem is then they mess up their machines trying stuff like this before fixing the real root of the problem. It's like pitting monster truck tires on a sports car... Please don't do it. Your still not going to be able to take her off road.

@thedude6650 9 ай бұрын

Thanks for testing this theory and sharing it with us! I’m new to the printnc community but everyone seems really helpful and working towards the goal of always improving the design and functionality.

@mylesmason3524 Жыл бұрын

Fantastic conclusion on a well run experiment. Love how you were honest and realistic about the outcome. Subscribed 👍

@WhitmanTechnological 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing the experiment and the results. I posted a build video of a similar machine and people mentioned filling the tubes. I'll mentally cross that off the list of potential modifications! You're a rockstar, and I'm now your subscriber. :)

@MKMilling 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you. I recall watching your build, impressive machine and design work.

@WhitmanTechnological 3 жыл бұрын

@@MKMilling No kidding, you watched my video? That's awesome!

@DudleyToolwright 3 жыл бұрын

Interesting solution. I liked the approach and the execution. I look forward to seeing more.

@MKMilling 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you! It was a fun experiment, I knew going in it wasn't going to be a major upgrade, but nice to confirm and avoid other people putting the effort in.

@luftstolle 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for posting even though you couldn't see any measurable difference! It's important to post negative as well as positive results, otherwise many others will try the same thing instead of trying something different.

@raynfallz 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for putting out the content.

@valdiorn 2 жыл бұрын

I used epoxy granite to fill my Shapeoko 3 XL gantry. It made a huge difference and significantly reduced vibration :) - foam is an interesting option, however I believe the majority of the improvement comes from the added mass, in which case, foam isn't that great for obvious reasons :)

@florentarhel7278 2 жыл бұрын

oh nice, any picture ?

@nullkuhl 2 жыл бұрын

@valdemar Erlingsson whats the ratio of epoxy to granite you used ?

@exol511 3 жыл бұрын

From what I have heard that the only foam that has any real effect is the 300kg/m³ density foam (meaning round 3x the density of the foam you used). Regardless I am sure you would be much better off using as most people mentioned sand (the sand needs to be packed in tight which at this point is going to be very annoying without disassembly), epoxy granite or expanding uhpc as density is a very important material if you want to improve vibration damping (and foam generally means its mostly air so that is not exactly the best option in most cases) Regardless good video and thank you for sharing!

@j.hankinson7803 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for posting this experiment. I am also super happy with my build. My biggest precision gain was switching to closed loop steppers since their prices have come down from the stratosphere.

@chicoxiba Жыл бұрын

why would that make any difference in precision.

@j.hankinson7803 Жыл бұрын

@@chicoxiba Regular steppers can easily lose steps. The closed loop variety ‘knows’ if they’ve lost a step and compensate if possible.

@lowtus7 Жыл бұрын

Closed loop steppers are great. Have some on my custom C beam machine. Something funny I noticed is they run cooler when cutting, rather than holding position. The world works in mysterious ways, lol

@dennishuddleston2000 5 ай бұрын

Hi MK. Just saw you video for the first time. I am building a cnc machine an I'm using a 6"x3" heavy walled aluminum extrusion from 8020. I plan to install a 4hp water cooled spindle. I saw a video that was 4-5 years old but it was of a cnc'er with a similar build. He used his X axis tube as a water reservoir by enclosing the ends with 1/2" lexan and running water lines to one end. I'm thinking of giving it a try on my machine. Sorry the foam idea wasn't sucessful. It sounded like a good idea! Dennis Huddleston

@FilterYT 2 жыл бұрын

Good job! Thanks for sharing.

@devilvortex1 Жыл бұрын

You can fill the tubes with sand to reduce the sound. Would be nice trying using a vaccum pump to remove the air inside the tubes. Sorry for my english.

@asdfghjk5352 7 ай бұрын

Thanks for testing, learnt from it for when i build mine.....maybe someone should try filling with well dried out sand to see if it helps which can be removed if it didn't work out.......

@nedgligich 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing the experiment and the results, I feel you are on the right path, perhaps the foam was not the right choice. I am toying with the idea of filling my gantry with a resin sand/granite mix, the idea being it will stiffen and dampen. I think you're noise is more the result of the bed being plywood, I would go to granite benchtop supplier and replace the bottom plywood. You can drill holes in the granite slab and bolt it down as well as bolt down the spoil board. I would also use pvc glue between the metal and granite as a filler damper, its the clear soft kids glue and comes of easy from gloss surfaces.

@JulienCope 3 жыл бұрын

two thing to consider here: 1 resonance frequency. if you change stiffness or mass you can minimize excitation of the system. This frequency needs to be as far away from the frequency generated when cutting 2 dampening. removing energy from the system will reduce unwanted movements by turning energy into heat sand in the gantry will provide mass and generate heat when it vibrates, getting best of both. Foam does not do much of these things...

@kentvandervelden 3 жыл бұрын

Very interesting! Recording with a linear reference microphone and looking at the spectrogram (time varying FFT) would help detail what you are seeing in the dB reading. Keep on innovating!

@MKMilling 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, I might have to dig into your idea a bit more to see if I can pull some new data that way.

@kentvandervelden 3 жыл бұрын

@@MKMilling Might also try subtracting the before and after recordings. Align them the best you can, have software apply a small range of +/- time shifts, minimizing total energy. One the signals are aligned, perform FFT to see what's changed. Just ideas. Cool project though. What difficulty did you have with the accelerometer?

@joppepeelen Жыл бұрын

Check out where your chips are jumping around while cutting. thats the part you need to address to reduce the noise. so your MDF board where the vice is mounted to start with

@evanlane1690 2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely won't do anything, but I like the spirit behind the experimentation!

@Nealieboyee 2 жыл бұрын

I did this on my extrusions and the ONLY thing it did was lessen the "ringing" sound you get from the hollow extrusions. After that I filled my gantry with sand. Man, what a difference. It sounded dead when hit with a hammer and also improved the finish a bit due to more of the vibration being dampened.

@ErtsenPlayGames 2 жыл бұрын

to fast speed , add more linear bearings (guide block etc) 2 per rail is best then pour 50mpa concrete mix inside of the frame and on the bottom with extra reinforcement (u can buy it in 25kg bags with basalt reinforcement mostly ewerywhere - used to build a fence without tools to mix it (fill the hole then add water no mixing needed etc ....still better to mix though) when u do that u will have super stiff frame :) if u know how to do it , u can try to make more than 50mpa concrete , but even average concrete with extra fibers (glass , steel or basalt for concrete) and accelerator if needed , can give u more than enough strenght ( its best to add at least 1 reinforcement steel rod if concrete wont stick to the steel and start cracking inside etc , or drill , tap , and add few screews so concrete will grab them inside the frame

@mossm717 6 ай бұрын

great experiment, good to see it being tried. I'd guess the foam is so much softer than the steel, that its damping has little impact. Perhaps something more rigid/stiffer would do better

@SergioGugliandolo 2 жыл бұрын

Nice machine, Maine you should have tried to add cement, sand or something heavy in the tube. This would have added mass, lowering the redone ting frequency. Nice job anyway :)

@andersstromqvist2211 Жыл бұрын

yes was just going to comment on adding cement. i did this with the pillar on a cheap pillar mill/drill. think it worked great on that

@Jeralddoerr 3 жыл бұрын

Just getting yourself a simple dial indicator and pushing or twisting your frame will help in testing how rigid your marching is.

@luftstolle 2 жыл бұрын

I don't think anyone expected the foam to help with rigidity, but the hope was that it would help with vibration dampening.

@Jeralddoerr 2 жыл бұрын

@@luftstolle So you mean... Vibration for sound? But not deflection vibration from the tool making sound?

@luftstolle 2 жыл бұрын

@@Jeralddoerr The vibrations lead to worse performance, e.g. surface finish of the machined parts or more tool wear etc.

@Jeralddoerr 2 жыл бұрын

@@luftstolle Yes! So case in point... Why the heck would anyone think foam would make anything more rigid?? Horrible idea.

@Jeralddoerr 2 жыл бұрын

@@luftstolle I hope you understand that tool deflection and ware are directly related to the rigidity of your machine and spindle.

@SebastienChedalBornu 2 жыл бұрын

i'm curious what were the bit specs (diam and nb of flutes) and the feedrates you use ? because i'm not doing so much overlap when milling aluminium, you got what 75% of the bit diameter ? i'm asking because it reminds me when i was using 1 flutes and i'm not using it anymore as it rips more than cut and they are more fragile i found out.

@_JustBeingCasual Жыл бұрын

@MK Milling that is really interesting that you have a db meter there; I was wondering what the difference is inside and outside the enclosure? how much does it dempen?

@LucasHartmann 2 жыл бұрын

Someone has to try it so we know it doesn't work. Thanks for saving me the trouble. :-)

@taciolps 2 жыл бұрын

Does it provide where I can buy the bearing brackets and the part that connects to the stepper motor?

@tcurdt 3 жыл бұрын

I would not have expected any cutting improvements as this isn't probably really vibration dampening on the steel tube. I would have hoped to cut down at some of the noise though. Bummer that's not the case either. Thanks for trying so I didn't have to :)

@MKMilling 3 жыл бұрын

Haha, Glad I could be of assistance!!!

@Karim_teran 3 жыл бұрын

Have you tried a dial indicator, 0 it, and start pushing at the machine with your hand. I work on large industrial CNC wood routers. I do this as soon as I work on a new machine in order to know what axis is weak or if something needs tightening. It might help track down your weak link. Hope it helps.

@MKMilling 3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the tip! I've been doing a few push pull tests on the machine. Some of the flex is just inherent to the design which allows for it to be more easily assembled with basic tools and still cheap enough for DIY. I can address most issues with good CAM, but it's fun to test out simple stuff like this.

@rok1475 2 жыл бұрын

Good idea, wrong filler. Sand would have been a good filler. It would lower the resonant freq. of the beam. Square tubing is full of tension from the forming process, so it tends to resonate like a string. Before you take your machine apart grab a piece of square tube, fill it tight with sand and hit it with a hammer. You should hear a difference. Sand needs to be dry and some kind of vibrator is needed to pack it well. Use expanding foam from a can to fill the void at the end. However, rigidity is the key. If the gantry beam is not rigid enough and the bearings are too loose, etc, the sand may have marginal impact.

@Thorhian 3 жыл бұрын

I wonder what using a steel tube as the conduit and going with a epoxy granite fill would be like. Prevents filling the whole tube so you don't have as much weight vs a fully filled one but I bet it would increase the rigidity and vibration damping of the gantry.

@MKMilling 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, that would be interesting, I'm guessing it would be "better" than the foam, but I don't know of it's really enough of a factor on the machine performance that it would drastically improve cut quality. Hopefully someone takes the initiative to try it out, haha.

@intelligenceservices Жыл бұрын

i bet if there was some good way to fill it almost full of sand without it leaking that would be a pretty effective way to dampen most of the vibrations.

@nobodynoone2500 2 жыл бұрын

Beware foam can trap moisture. When we do this to race cars they are scrap in 10-15 years. Also, there are special foams to make things rigid, normal poly foam does very little as you discovered.

@martiniindustries Жыл бұрын

Just thinking out loud here, but has anyone tried filling it with sand?

@avt-CNC 9 ай бұрын

Только бетон поможет!! Большой вес и жёсткость два самых важных параметра фрезерного станка!!

@mrapsouthern Ай бұрын

Nice try but the reason you don’t observe any notable change in the airborne sound level is because the x-gantry is not the dominant source of noise! To observe a change in the broadband level like that the x-gantry beam would need to be contributing as much sound energy as the spindle and spindle/material connection combined, which of course, it doesn’t. You need to measure the vibration displacement of the gantry in one or more dimensions and then analyse it in the frequency domain against a range of rpm without load and under load. You then identify the more resonant frequencies and then come up with a way to treat them(which is a different post altogether)

@taciolps 2 жыл бұрын

I'm building a similar structure, all in aluminum.

@vasyapupken 3 жыл бұрын

maybe that's why everybody talks about epoxy granite and nobody about foam ) (before doing any modifications you'd better to measure what exactly causes most problems to you. in your case thick steel tube looks sufficient for being gantry. more questions on Z-axis assembly and using single bearing block instead of pair everywhere )

@exol511 3 жыл бұрын

The idea of the PNC is to be made with as few tools (basically drill and 3d printer) and on as low of a budget as possible. Using steel tubing in the design means that you have a very uneven/bent surface for mounting the rails, which in turn will very easily bind if you used multiple blocks. Thus the compromise is to use single blocks which allow for a lot more alignment error

@julianweiser9985 2 жыл бұрын

Sand would have been a good idea. However, its better for a fixed gantry machine.

@chrisprice7285 2 жыл бұрын

Why would you think this would improve quality? Honest question not trying to be smart. I was surprised that it seemed a lot louder.

@gregorgombac5302 3 жыл бұрын

Why not fill the gantry with sand? Any downsides?

@MKMilling 3 жыл бұрын

I think it would be hard to get sand packed in tight enough without some sort of binder to prevent it from shifting under high acceleration and deceleration and potentially adding more issues, kind of like a deadblow hammer. If I was going to try and get more weight in the gantry I would probably look at a high performance cement. Outside of my little mishap, the foam was pretty easy to use, would be even easier if you did it before it was attached to the Y rollers.

@gregorgombac5302 3 жыл бұрын

@@MKMilling Yeah I thought about concrete too, but drying shrinkage is going to cause a lot of issues. My idea is to pack it full of sand excluding the area where the bolts are before fixing the gantry to the y axis, and pack it really well using also a threaded bar

@gregorgombac5302 3 жыл бұрын

@@MKMilling In addition I thought better about it, and it doesn't need to much packing since it only moves on y moves, so just pressing in really hard the tube end caps should be enough

@MKMilling 3 жыл бұрын

Very true, there are a lot of opportunities to do it a few different ways I think, I felt a bit restricted since my machine was already assembled and running, so I wanted to try and find something I could implement without causing too much downtime on the machine.

@gregorgombac5302 3 жыл бұрын

@@MKMilling yeah that's true, you did a good job, even if the improvements did not show in the video

@AB_Tool 3 жыл бұрын

Why not use epoxy granite ?

@MKMilling 3 жыл бұрын

At the time it seems like it would have been a lot more difficult to get into the gantry with an already assembled machine. Plus I was just curious what foam would do.

@martinlaforest1351 2 жыл бұрын

Have you thought about adding weight ? In accoustic, adding makes the resonnance frequency . maybe some trial and error? Someone here more knowledgeable ?

@pg9112471 22 күн бұрын

Mass = less vibration.

@CryoftheProphet 2 жыл бұрын

You ought have used a silicone or something that would have really absorbed some vibrations. The machine is already about as rigid as its going to get honestly..

@evosolucoesindustriais8408 3 жыл бұрын

i am tinking to fill my Printnc whit epoxy granite

@MKMilling 3 жыл бұрын

That would be awesome to see, Im really curious. Ow to see if it would make an improvement. Just need some one to dive into the project.

@okinawajapan1 2 жыл бұрын

Hi, Have you seen Dan Gelbart's shop tour video where he uses lead sheets to dampen an anvil's ringing? This may be your solution. I think Dan may have this problem solved. at 20:38 into the video he explains how he stops an anvil from ringing. Very effective solution it seems is to glue two lead sheets to either side of the metal and that seems to completely dampen the noise. Now where to find lead sheets? kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fr2AjNJ2lrmynnU.html

@EdwardThomasCigar 2 жыл бұрын

Just fill it with sand

@dakadaka7455 9 ай бұрын

Whoever is reading this. Spoiler alert in oder to save you 11min of your life Foam made no difference

@pmally2006 3 жыл бұрын

You're mixing the foam too much. You would be better off packing the gantry with sand.

@MKMilling 3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, got the mixing figured out a bit better on the second attempt. I could see sand potentially having some better results after having done this, but for sure comes with its own challenges.

@pmally2006 3 жыл бұрын

@@MKMilling Sand is used in roller coasters to decreases resonance.

@Jeralddoerr 3 жыл бұрын

1st off, you're going about this soooooo incredibly wrong it's reckless. To make matters worse, the tool you're using is way out of control for that machine. If your stuck with that tool, simple fix stick it farther up in the collet... There's no reason you should have all that tool sticking out as your just making it harder on your machine... (Use a shorter tool) I'm 100% sure you can fix most of the problems using correct tools and proper feeds and speeds "for your machine." Before even attempting what you're doing. Hopefully, it's not too hard to remove the foam if you even need to at this point...

@RoboArc 9 ай бұрын

Well the foam thing is to take out the ringing from withing the machine frame. The frame isn't that big, but I'm sure this dampened the internal ringing. By how much though ? Orbablt not super detectable with a fkn db meter lol

@KingZeusCLE 7 ай бұрын

Why foam? You want mass and strength.. foam has neither. Mix two part epoxy with the mill chips you have around the shop- 75% chips, 25% epoxy. Vibrate to remove bubbles and voids. If you're feeling real brave, shove the biggest Chinese Steel l threaded rod you can get and then epoxy around it.