Ben: Rap doesn't fit my Eurocentric view of what music should be. Music teachers: If it sounds good, it is good.

I've never heard of Zuby before, but he seems like an intelligent and decent man.

Omg can you imagine Kanye West sitting down with Ben Shapiro? They might break the internet with that interview! Make it happen DW! #Yay4Ye #Yes2West

Both very clever men. And Zuby identified as a woman for a few minutes in 2019 to show the gender advantage men have in sport and proceeded to break all British women's powerlifting records.

Ben, who’s voice is already high and super fast hears rap and is like “it’s just talking, I’m unimpressed.”

Zuby the women's deadlifting champ.

Zuby could read books to me to help me sleep. His voice is great.

Confused how Jazz is less skilled than classical. Jazz was like the one genre that expanded on the complexity. Maybe he is considering an orchestra more complicated because it has more instruments playing at once. But in terms of mathematical patterns and such... I'm gonna have to disagree.

Kanye, Kendrick, Logic, Run the Jewels... there are definitely some rappers who put a lot of effort into their sound. There's a super wide range of quality and effort within rap.

It all comes down to which details the artist values and puts attention into the most. If one person puts 10,000 hours into classical, and the other puts 10,000 into rap, the result are two separate skills in which one can do things the other can’t. In classical music, it is largely about mastering the technical challenges of your instrument and your ability to read sheet music, so that is what classical musicians spend most of their time doing. In rap, it’s largely about crafting a meaningful message with a skillful use of words, rhythm, and rhyme. To label one as “more difficult” is to use your own ideal as THE model to compare it to - which is irrelevant. It’s like if you gave a dog an IQ test, you would label the dog dumb. But if a dog could give you a smelling test, the dog would label you incompetent. Your perception of what good music is largely based upon who you are as an individual and what you grew up listening to. Even when it comes down to Rock n’ Roll - to just degrade it to “playing 3 chords” is just pointlessly comparing it to goals of a classical musician. Can a classical violinist make an arena of 10,000+ people scream of energy and get them to form mosh pits? Can they improvise extremely technical, harmonically accurate shredding lines at blistering tempos without letting the hyper energy waiver for over an hour straight? Even if a rap or jazz artist can just get up on a stage and perform with no preparation, that does not mean years of study/practice didn’t go into their craft. Ben Shapiro’s ability to stand up in a political sphere and answer a question from the audience with utmost fluency far outshines mine - because he’s spent years externally researching and cultivating his own informed opinion of these specific subjects. A master rap artist has spent countless hours/years studying other rap music to better inform their own individual artistic voice. Nothing comes from a vacuum.

My father is the biggest uptight conservative, only been with my mother, never drinks goes to church every Sunday. In 1996 I stole my first rap album from his pickup truck, Mobb Deep the Infamous.

What I like the most about rap music particularly artists like Kendrick Lamar is the storytelling and the visualization.

Zuby is a legit guy. I enjoy hearing his opinion, even if I don't agree. To imply rock is relegated to only a few subjects and you're limited in your topics is preposterous.

Great discussion. That’s how a conversation should take place. You both like different venues but, neither of you interrupted the other. No shouting down by host or guest. Kudos, there’s hope.

its not just rhythm, its also tonal. inflections, semitones, sustain length, & the timbres of syllables are all part of the creative musical decisions of a skilled rapper. Also, the background music should count as a factor, since we wouldn't say a Tito Puente or Art Blakey record isn't music if their drumming takes the foreground.

Aside from the fact that there’s obviously melody and harmony in rap, I’d love for someone to sit down and show some of the craftsmanship that goes into writing. Rhyming, rhymes within rhymes, literation, metaphors, similes, storytelling, wordplay, flow changes, tonal changes. Not to mention, artists are always playing with the genre to put words together in a new and clever way. It really is worth respecting. And it is MUSIC.

I just went from not knowing Zuby to being a big fan of him. Good for you sir. And glad Ben does interviews from all walks of life even someone like a rapper whom he's obviously not a fan of the art of rapping. Thank you BOTH for this interview!!

I feel like Ben should hear Ultralight Beam by Kanye. Definitely fits the hamony, melody and rhythm quotas in my opinion.

I wish Ben would do a deep dive into why hip hop's messaging tends to be so degenerate and evil in the mainstream specifically. I bet he'd be surprised on what he learns. Who is controlling the messaging and the things that are pushed to the top of the charts? It's something I've wondered for a long time because it doesnt seem to be completely driven by the audience themselves. It seems like people are being force fed; inorganic growth of the least talented, what they call "industry plants," the subliminal messaging, etc. Maybe people do just like degeneracy, but I think there is something going on behind the scenes.

As a 90's hip hop fan, rap is poetry. Zuby forgot to mention the art of turntablism, and Invisibl Skratch Piklz are amazing at it, so i recommend Ben check that out. Beatboxing is also a skill.

I mean... Ben might as well take a stab at it. He's deep, well-versed, witty and talks really fast. If he can just translate his staccato violin playing into words... #wewantshapirorap

For the "is this music" argument, I'd tell Ben that as soon as you introduce rules to music, you're basically saying that at some point those rules are going to be stretched and / or broken, and it'll be amazing. The "rhythm, harmony, and melody" are rules that we made up to strive toward doing something great, which is good. But when a new form of music comes out that challenges the rule, it inevitably turns into a breath of fresh air and breathes life into music. Ben's an old fashion guy that likes his classical and jazz, and that's cool. The musicians that perform that stuff are completely insanely ridiculously talented individuals performing some of the most complex complicated music out there. But imagine growing up from that, being forced into that music, not particularly enjoying it, and then Elvis comes on the screen playing simple ass music with an attitude the world hadn't seen before... That must've been a turning point for many peoples lives. Rules are meant to be broken. P.S. Keep the friendly disagreement videos coming along, Ben. Nice to see perspective from both sides of whatever disagreement we're having today.

I'm a professional hip hop, pop and rock producer and here's what I think of this conversation. Zuby debunked Ben's claim that rap isn't music so fast and ben changed the subject lol. There's harmony, melody and rhythm in the beats. There's classical pieces that don't have all 3 of those things either, take John Cage's 4:33 (to use an extreme example). That piece is 4 minutes of silence and there's plenty of contemporary Classical pieces that don't have melody or rhythm. The other thing that Ben got wrong is that Jazz is a dumbed down version of classical music. 1st off, Jazz came from Blues not Classical music. 2ndly, Classical music does require a lot of technical prowess, but so does playing Jazz well and the chord voicings are much more complex than in Classical music. To say pop and rock are dumbed down versions of Jazz is also a stupid argument. Harmonically and melodically, yes there is less going on, but it forces someone to do more with less, which is very difficult. The production value of those styles of music far surpass its older relatives of Jazz and Classical music. Bottom line, rap is obviously music lol and Ben just doesn't like it, which is fine.

“So tell me why I’m wrong” THIS statement is golden. You will rarely hear people ask to have their opinions challenging. There is nothing wrong with being wrong. It’s okay to learn and change your mind based on facts, experiences and revelations. This is the type of dialogue I want to have in college.

You two should cut an album together… meld the 2 music genres

In my opinion Ben should Give “The College Dropout” by Kanye west a listen. I think that’s something that may be easy for him to listen since Kanye love sampling jazz and soul beats. Idk 🤷‍♂️

Zuby = The people’s champ.

Kendrick Lamar and J Cole are excellent example of lyrical content and lyrical word play. If Ben didn’t like Rap that’s cool… we are all made different and have the freedom to choose what we prefer.

I so want to become a neoclassical shred god just so that way I can prove to Ben Shapiro once and for all that classical music is actually heavy metal.

Two sophisticated men sharing opinions and learning from each other.

It’s crazy because Ben’s pace and rhythm of his speech is so similar to rap and I think that’s part of the reason why people are intrigued when he speaks. He has his own flow lol.

“the lyrics are most of the song” no lyricism is just one aspect of the rap, the beat the melody the energy the flow delivery the tempo the cadence - sometimes i don’t even care about the lyrics just the flow delivery and the beat sets the energy for me to enjoy a song

I respect Ben talking about it and having humility to say “tell me why I’m wrong” but I definitely think rap is music. I originally believed ben’s three elements to be an excuse to not like rap music for partisan reasons. I definitely think rap is music and doesn’t need some particular elements to be recognized as music. Do not confuse the moon for the finger pointing at the moon

zuby ..hitting it hard with facts

This is Ben's biggest weakness. Coming from someone who was a legit Berniebro to listening to Ben almost daily, I feel like he just needs to spend a month listening to some of the excellent rap/hip-hop that's out there. I love music, and it makes me sad when someone can't break through a barrier because there's so much he's missing out on. He even admits in this clip that he hasn't had a bunch of real exposure to it and I think he'd come around and be like "oh, okay, not my cup of tea but there are some gems in this genre that I just wasn't exposed to before."

Thank you! This interview was so entertaining!! 😀

Ben: “Rap sucks. Prove me wrong.” Eminem starts rhyming the entire dictionary. Ben becomes a rapper.

Ben has literally never heard anything that hasn’t topped the billboard charts. Which is always an indicator of the most PC watered down most accessible version of the genre. When I hear “rap has no melody or harmony” and then I listen to To Pimp a Butterfly I want to shake him by the ears lmao

Jazz is not a degradation of classical. It's an expansion of classical. The number of chord changes and the musical theory behind jazz is so much more complex and dynamic than classical. And to improvise over them is so much more true to creative expression than just interpreting and phrasing of an existing piece.

rap is the most diverse genre and i will die on this hill.

WOW the way he broke down Rap with such eloquence blew me away. This guy knows how to talk. I am now a fan. Good job having him on.

Just beautiful ! Talking to everyone and being honest is one the most important parts of journalism, simply because, today - it is rare !

Check out the neuroscience behind classical music. It causes a positive state and makes all sections of the brain work together at the same time. This is totally unique to classical music.

If Ben thinks rap never has harmony or melody he has clearly never listened to Tupac lol

90's rap is the best, Bone Thugs are my favorite group.

This was an incredible take from both these guys. Really liked that Ben asked him everything my parents would ask about rap/hip hop. Well done.

This Friday , ben is on his first rap song with Tom Macdonald

I love Ben but his original take on hip hop will always be cringe. Every musician should be able to appreciate the craft in some shape or form. Don’t let the shallow mainstream garbage influence your opinion on the rest of the genre. Imagine listening to a Mozart phone ringtone and going “all classical music is trash.”

Ben is hearing the current stuff. The Golden Age of HIPHOP was late 80s until around 96. Thats where the experimentation and the real story telling happened.

Hiphops capacity for story telling is what makes it one of my favorite forms of music.

I’m a classical pianist that loves rap, rock, and everything in between. I couldn’t listen to just one or two genres like Ben.

I'm not really a fan of rap primarily because of a lot of the messaging. But then I discovered NerdCore. Lots of creative wordplay and unique introspections on some of my favorite anime characters and series. And while it might be considered a bit of a novelty genre, these are passionate fans who put a lot of time and effort into expressing their love for something that they just enjoy because it's fun. And the teamwork on some of the cyphers is pretty cool. I find it's harder to be creative on a group project because you'll often end up with too many cooks around one pot, but I've heard so many long cyphers collaborated on by upwards of half a dozen people flow so smoothly you'd think it came from a single mind. I think there's something special about that.

I remember this interview. I think Zuby doesn’t understand rock/metal very well. Rap is almost exclusively written by multiple people, whereas rock is written by the band, typically the words are written by the lead singer, and is much more “pure” from the artist. Rock musicians actually write their music, and don’t take “samples” from another musician and just talk over it. Every genre is “wide open” to address any topic. What’s he talking about?

That man sure has a deep voice

RAP stands for “Rhythm And Poem”

Never heard of Zuby, but he is a great roll model for young black males i'd say. Educated, well spoken and thoughtful.

Ben doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to rock. Playing guitar like Randy Rhoads, Alexi Laiho, Zaak Wylde and many others is as talented as any classical instrument player out there.

Outstanding interview! Generally, I don't evaluate entire music genres, I take things work by work except, for some reason, classical opera, which I genuinely respect but have never enjoyed. There are individual works in every other genre that I like and individual works that I don't. I've rarely heard any artist in any genre discuss his work with the kind of depth, that hints at even greater depth outside the scope of the interview, that Zuby does here. It's extremely impressive and I'll definitely be checking out his work.

Ben needs to watch how DJ premier, Pete Rock, 9th wonder, Q-tip, all make beats.

If you wanted to hear some rap from an intelligent person, a classically trained jazz drummer, with a professional appearance and positive message, check out Harry Mack. He is smart, intelligent and articulate and he only raps freestyle straight of the head. No written lyrics. Very impressive and a great example of what rap could be.

Sorry for rambling about music, I’m on the autism spectrum and music is one of my obsessions. This was absolutely awesome! I’ve been fan of Shapiro for more than a few years now even though we disagree on somethings, hearing him discuss hiphop with a rapper was nice. My 3 favorite genres of music are metal, EDM/techno, and hip-hop. I love classical, jazz, and all forms pretty much except country. I myself am a progressive metal guitarist inspired heavily by the neo-classical shredders and jazz players but I also love Wu-Tang Clan, Busta Rhymes, Twista, Harry Mack (improvisational rapper), among countless other rappers old school and new and even some mumble rap. Everything Zuby said was spot on. There is a huge variety of beats in rap and some of them are very classical or jazz sounding. Most people notice the beat first and everyone loves a good beat but to truly understand and appreciate rap you really have to dig into what the rapper is saying and how they’re saying it. I like many rap songs where I really don’t care for the beat at all but the skill of the rapper is too amazing not to like it but the majority of the ones I like have good beats. For guys like Shapiro it would help tremendously to understand some of the slang used in rap first because many brilliant things will go over your head if you’re not familiar with the slang of the verbiage.

Not every Rock song has the same level of "difficulty", just like not every classical piece has the same level of "difficulty". Anyone who started playing an instrument on classical music and moved to modern music knows this. Also Music is such fluid art. "Simple" songs can become into more complex pieces by masters of the art.

I like songs from all genres but not all song from all genres. It has to hit my soul just right.

Delta Blues and Electric 60’s blues rock music is all time GOAT. It’s got a bit of everything imo

I like to compare really good rap with poetry. The vocabulary and word play can be deep and nuanced, no different often times than a classical play. The biggest problem with rap has, and will always be, the image of it. When people think of rap, many of the first thoughts that come to mind is violence, which unfortunently is somewhat true.

His argument for rap not being music is brain numbing and has been disproven so many times i don't get how people still genuinely agree with it

I think a videos of someone familiar with rap guiding Ben through rap that consists of his trait requirements and good lyrics would be a great mini series.

as a producer who makes melodies everyday for rappers beats that annoyed me so much that he said there’s no melody in rap🤦‍♂️😂

Two favs

Remember buying zubys first album for a tenner in Southampton got pic n that decent dude can actually spit bars

Clearly no one has ever played Ben any Bone Thugs-n-Harmony

i was in my tweens in the early/mid 80s when Rap was first starting to get known and around the time the whole Breakdance and Graffiti cultures were just starting to be trendy and on the verge of breaking into mainstream and i liked all of that stuff. a couple years later i was in my mid teens and discovering and getting more into various sorts of Rock music, just a couple years after that Rap music started taking a very sharp turn more towards the Gangster Rap direction and political direction and i distinctly felt like a culture that had embraced everyone was taking a turn against people that looked like me and i was absolutely turned off by the whole thug life gang BS aspect of it and lost interest all together. there was the argument for years that Rap was poetry and the voice of the streets or the oppressed or just people talking about the things they had seen and been exposed to and almost like a therapy or something. and that may have been true to some extend at some time but honestly the VAST majority of Rap i have heard for decades now is vapid and trite. first of all i hear WAY more boring repetitive generic posturing of hood cliches than i ever hear decent real thoughtful impassioned words. arguably Rap these days isnt even about the words or rapper as much as people like the songs just flat out because of the beat. second it irritates me to no end that these artists do this stuff then reach great success and wealth and then they just keep on hanging out in the same old bad neighborhoods with the same old people and repeating the same old complaints and dont show any signs of trying to better their lives now that they have escaped this terrible hoof that they always talk abut. i am poor white trash i grew up in AWFUL neighborhoods around awful people and my greatest accomplishment in life was just getting away from that crap. at this point in time i have come to despise the whole culture that the term Hip Hop has come to represent, a culture that is its own worst enemy. since it was mentioned about racist and not liking Rap and so on. something that has bothered me for decades is the very promoted and accepted idea or concept that white people stole rock and roll and so many other things from black people. Blues music was very important to the formation of Rock And Roll and the whole youth culture explosion, and for the most part The Blues was an art form created by Black musicians, but first of all Blues was not the only influence in the creation of Rock And Roll and second Blues does not exist without the influence of European and American culture. Blues was not invented by tribesmen in Africa it was created by Black Americans that were exposed to European forms of folk and traditional music. it is a unique melding of influences that were brought together in this wonderful country and a great example of how we strengthen each other, and people need to stop making it about race and racism. for the most part most Black people have long abandoned and neglected any interest in Rock And Roll or The Blues, yet many people still like to throw that old rhetoric down about how White people stole it.

I think Ben would truly appreciate NF because he is rhythmic, melodious and has a great message on all of his music. Also, since Ben is a classical music guy, he would probably like the fact that Nate loves the orchestral sounds and stringed instruments.

I grew up listening to metal. Rammstein, Rob Zombie, Dio. I have gained an appreciation of some rap music. Like Chris Rock said, “I love rap music. I grew up listening to Tupac, Grandmaster Flash, Houdini… but damn, you’re making it hard for me to defend you”. I am also a huge fan of classical. Wagner’s Ring is the best music ever made, along with Donizetti.

How dare he not mention Bone Thugz N Harmony to defend that rap music can have harmony. They're the ones that piqued my interest in rap. I can't even imagine someone not liking rap after being introduced to their music.

A year later and Ben is #1 on iTunes 🤣

If Ben tried he could rap faster than eminem

If anyone wants some really good rap, listen to NF. He doesn't cuss, he can rap very fast and well, his wordplay is amazing, and he raps to music rather than just a "beat". Sometimes he raps without any beat, just music. He also has good messages for once.

I have been following Zuby on a few platforms. He's funny and awesome. Thank you for posting this.

I like how open Ben was here. The other gentleman was very well spoken and totally correct about everything he said (coming from a pro Hip Hop/Rap/R&B producer and engineer).

Rap is a verbal aggression. Ben is being nice by not pointing out the blatant animalistic nature of rap. You can say the same thing about heavy metal.... The melody brings you to a bad place of pure instant gratification. It's not about race many black ppl hate rap.

Ben, would love to understand your take on Kendrick’s Lamar latest rap album. Particularly some of the subject matters discussed and interplay of utilizing rap and other subsets of jazz,rock,etc in the album to get that message across.

Ben Shapiro needs to listen to Whole Lotta Red

I'd imagine that because Ben said rock is "just 4 chords", if he had a rock backround instead of classical, he'd probably be a progressive rock snob instead.

Rap and classical can both be enjoyable. It really depends on your mood/state of mind.

Ben is definitely wrong when it comes to rock. Yes it is easier to make something commercially viable with rock. You have your power chords, your ballads, and your tried and true formulas. This is just mainstream rock. Even with classical, the most popular tracks are often some of the simplest relatively speaking. Fur Elise is just as popular as Moonlight Sonata but if you compare to that third movement of Moonlight Sonata, it is less complex and considerably less difficult if only for the speed. Fur Elise is the player piano song though so everyone has heard it. Popularity even in classical has very little to do with complexity. When you deep dive into rock, you find complexity if you simply look for it. You have your underappreciated virtuosos who do things like time signature shifts, ghost notes, and complex solos on every instrument that really isnt required for the song to be great, but they add things in for love of their craft. The metal subgenre is rife with these even today and often have bands where everyone is a master of their instrument. You just have to know who to look for and what you want. Symphonic metal, for example, has several tracks that 20 minute productions ranging in complexity. The ones I have in mind are at the very least as complex as movie scores are. It's also important to note, while a piano has far more notes than an electric guitar, you can tune the guitar in far more ways and far easier because it is electronic. The same with a keyboard. You can program it with a ton of complexity or just use it as a piano. This is to say you get a greater diversity of sound for less or equivalent skill.

I love some rap music, but it’s definitely not my goto genre, that would be rock/metal

The audio in this interview is really great! Big fan of good audio.

Both can be great, don't have to like either.

Ben show Zuby some damn respect! It's not easy being a female champion weight lifter. Geez.

I mean I love listening to classical music too. But in my heart I'm a metal fan who's is a fan of jazz fusion and neoclassical fusion in bands and I'm all for rock guitar and metal guitar just like loving drummers, bassists from different bands from different genres.

Listen to All of the Lights (Interlude) followed by All of the Lights, and then tell me a violin is music and rap isn’t.

Very cool trying to bridge the gap 👏🙌

I don't like braggadocious rap and gangster rap and sexual rap. It sets a terrible example. If it's family friendly wholesome rap, I'm fine with it.

This is how you have a disagreement. End of story.

As long as the song is entertaining and puts me in a good mood, I consider it good music. Similarly to superhero movies. They aren’t exactly top quality cinema, but there’s a reason they are so popular among people.

There’s no need to apologize for liking any type of music. It is a personal thing. I personally like classical, R&B, Soul, Rock and Pop/Country.

What about the common critiques of classical? There is almost no creativity for the vast majority of musicians - they don’t write music, they learn to effectively (and emotively) perform it. The amount of unique writing in a rap song is immense. The difficulty of a task (while admirable in mastering a given skill) doesn’t inherently make that skill more valuable… saying that a violinist is more of a musician than a bass player due to the complexity of producing a good sound is silly. Additionally, the “band” in any typical hip hop song performed live has a drummer and a bass player that demonstrating far more skill and impact on the performance than most of the members of an orchestra. Finally, the capitalist argument - (not a persuasive one to me, but still a real argument) - more popular / makes more money… doesn’t that mean humanity as a whole values that service more?

"KRS-ONE 40 years of Hip Hop Culture" is a good documentary to get an idea of what's Hip Hop, hip-hop, rap, products and celebrities. Great to know the phylosophy behind it

It starts with the producer. Most talented producers have learned different elements of music and applied it to hip hop/Rap. The lyrics are just another added element that the rap artist provides.