Thinking At Max Volume's video: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fceanpSmmbfYYmQ.html

Since BotW i've felt that series was going thru a soft reboot. It's the only explanation that makes the most sense. This became more apparent with TotK. It feels like the developers don't really want to commit to any hard timeline placements and only want to acknowledge past games in the form of fun Easter eggs and references.

The people at Nintendo had no idea how important the history and lore was going to be to the players. They just wanted to make a good game. No way did they put a fraction of the energy into making a well thought out timeline which is why we need videos like yours today.

I think something that flat out proves this is something we learn from Gannondorf's character profile in totk. Whilst malice will always leak out and cause a Calamity, the only thing that actually damages the seal is Hyrule castle being damaged. Hyrule castle being damaged in Botw is actually the first time Rauru's seal was weakened. And because we see Hyrule castle get flat out destroyed multiple times this means that Gannondorf couldn't be sealed down there during the older games. We know for a fact that Botw and Totk are connected to the existing timeline so them (past & present) taking place after is the only explanation that works.

Note that Rauru is speaking present tense. I think it’s up in the air wether he’s aware there was a prior Hyrule, just that it would have been long ago. So I think he is wondering if there is someone making a claim for the kingdom that he’s unaware of

This is what my first assumption was when playing the game. It just made the most sense to me to assume that Rauru founded a new Hyrule after the previous ones fell. We know this has happened at least once before in the series (e.g. Wind Waker, and probably also Zelda 2) so there's no problem with thinking it could happen again.

Zelda might be stronger that Sonia because she bears the Triforce. In game, we know the triforce shows on her hand when she imprisons the Calamnity. Light also emanates from the BACK of her hand when she begins healing the Master sword in TotK, rather then her palm. Some have claimed they can barely see the triforce during that scene. In larger lore, this also makes sense and allows us to explain why the triforce isn’t present. From OOT, when know that the triforce is unique in time travel in that it cannot occupy two places at the same time in the same way as say the Master Sword, which simultaneously exists on Zeldragon and in Links possession during BotW. The triforce doesn’t play by this rule. When OOT Link goes back in time at the end of the game, back to before Ganondorf touched it, he possessed the Triforce of Courage as you can see on his hand in the very last shot of the game. All of a sudden, Ganondorf has the triforce without opening the Sacred Realm, as we see the the flashback in TP. The triforce pieces cannot duplicate, instead the Triforce of Courage stayed with Link, breaking the other two pieces and having them sent to Ganondorf and presumably Zelda. The Divine Prank, then was not a malicious action of the gods, but rather the Triforce not allowing itself to duplicate. TotK Zelda seems to possess the divine light of the Triforce, which amplifies her power.

The only thing I can't quite follow is how the symbols of the old Hyrule made it into the revered status they have in new Hyrule. Following a total civilizational wipeout, the holy symbols of the Triforce and the Loftwing iconography are still somehow everywhere, most importantly on the crest of Hyrule's royal family. If the Zonai re-founded Hyrule, it would make far more sense for the royal crest of new Hyrule to include things like shrine spirals, secret stones, and Rauru's arm. I will resolve this by assuming there was an event of vast cultural significance involving the goddess Hylia, the Triforce, Loftwings, and the Hylians recovering their Skyloftian roots before, during, or after the first rise of Calamity Ganon. If the new Hylians saw that take place and ascribe their victory over Calamity Ganon to Hylia, Loftwings, and the Triforce, then the iconography could absolutely take root again. Even better if the Link and Zelda of that era found a Hylian Shield from ages long past, the symbols upon mirroring their salvation.

It also makes a lot of sense because if the kingdom of Hyrule's 3 timelines converged then the effects of that would be utterly catastrophic given you not only have very different people with very different histories, but you would also have three royal families who probably wouldn't want to give up their own power. Combine that with all the monsters and the Downfall Timeline in general, yeah, the original Hyrule falling isn't that big of a stretch.

I like to think that while Old Hyrule completely collapsed after the timeline merging, on the different continent New Hyrule was just vibing and now there's just casually 2 places called Hyrule

Sonia was probably weaker because the understanding of the power of their bloodline might have been temporarily lost to time. You can't work with what you don't know or understand very much of.

There is a *very* easy way for Hyrule to have collapsed in the way you suggest. See, in Breath of the Wild, Zelda states that all daughters born into the Royal Family are named “Zelda” (likely after her). This has obviously also been the case since the Minish Cap, because the name Zelda has reappeared time and again. But what if there *were* no daughters of the Hyrulean Royal Family for several centuries? What if this caused the Hylians to believe the gods had abandoned them, slowly forgetting them until nothing remained of the “Legend of Zelda, Goddess of Time”? The name “Hylia” could easily be re-found from ancient shrines, those that were kept out in the open and able to be seen. Meanwhile, the Hyrulean Royal Family buried their dead in crypts, inaccessible to the public. The name of Zelda, the legends of the Master Sword, and even the first Kingdom of Hyrule, could all be forgotten. Hylia’s statues survived millennia between the attack of Demise, and the descension of Link to the Land of Hylia, which is why the Skyloftians believed that the Surface was either a barren wasteland, or nonexistent. But much of the buildings and icons that were made by the Hylians crumbled away after a few centuries. Hyrule’s Kingdom, Zelda, Link and even the Master Sword and the Triforce could be long forgotten until Zelda’s appearance in the Zonai Kingdom of Hyrule. The existence of Rauru having the same name as the Sage of Light? An intervention by Hylia, as a way to try and help her children remember their past.

Im gonna be honest, I really like this new generation of Zelda KZfaqrs. You and Thinkingatmaxvolume are really professional and clear about the topics without milking for content. Big respect and looking forward to future uploads!

Ever since BOTW it felt like the game was set far, far, far, FAR in the future. The timescale of at least 10,000 years mentioned within that game alone and making mention of events and characters we never heard of before just means its waaaaay farther away from the other games than those games were from each other.

Makes sense to me. It's like Hyrule (the land, not the kingdom) went through its own dark ages, where much of their history was forgotten. They may have even forgot about Hylia since Sonia is referred to as "Hyrulean" instead of "Hylian" (although she apparently was a priestess before becoming queen? Interesting). Seems like the Zonai weren't able to fully get them out of their dark age (since they still look primitive at a point when there are only 2 Zonai left), but the Sheikah eventually were.

May not be the first. But god dang, Raru is the most handsome King of Hyrule.

I have had the thought that this has to take place after any timeline merge as proposed by the "Dragonbreak" theory. The big thing is that the same director of SS is the same as BotW and TotK, he wouldn't want to be undoing a work in his own resume, especially since it was supposed to be the first Zelda game chronologically. While the games themselves are likely a soft reboot, I feel like Nintendo wouldn't completely erase what came before.

Nintendo already said that BotW takes place so far down the line that they previous timelines are irrelevant relegated to legends. That's a full confirmation that Rauru's kingdom is neither the first nor is it by any means important to any of the three timelines as we know them. And I do think this is a sort of soft reboot of LoZ. BotW started from basically scratch while the events of TotK was a more complicated OoT retelling.

You guys are doing a great job. One thing about Zelda and Sonia's power difference - is it possible they were suggesting that Zelda possesses the Triforce? We did see the symbol apear on her hand at the end of Botw. Could be a subtle hint, but i like the zonai ascendency plan, demi gods sent to re-invigorate the royal bloodline is pretty metal

The only thing that bothers me is why the Great Plateau bears such an uncanny resemblance to Castle Town and Hyrule Castle in Ocarina of Time. Nintendo may have retconned it to just being an easter egg, but I can’t help but wonder if theres something more going on

Gannon calls Sonia "Hyrulian" in a way that implies the Hyrulians are an ethnic group. However, they're ethnicity has always been called Hylian. The term "Hyrule" comes from the kingdom. The term Hyrulian and Hylian shouldn't become synonymous for an ethnicity until well after the kingdom has been established (we see this in real life). I may be over relying on English dialogue, but it suggest an older association for the name Hyrule.

the fact the Zonai and hylians worship Hylia, the fact the master sword is able to slay ganondorf, and the Rito existing all pointed to Raurus kingdom being established long after all the other games when I played through it. from an employee and in game developer perspective, people who don't play the game don't interact to much with fans or their theories, I always assumed internally the first Hyrule Warriors was taken into account when planing Botw and, again from the perspective that Nintendo employees aren't looking to hard into it, have just operated on the idea that hyrule warriors was the point where the timeliness merged and just worked from there.

I agree with this. Edit: I think Zelda is stronger than Sonia because she (unknowingly) has the full tri-force, and the fact that she isn't a princess named Zelda but the reincarnation of Hylia. Otherwise you adressed all the points I had. Anther piece of evidence against Totk being early in the time line is the utter lack of mention of the three Golden Goddesses - most egregiously in the three springs tied to their powers. The fact that the three dragons have very similar names suggests people knew about the three goddesses at some point, and lost that information to time. For example, I can see a primitive Hylian civilization assigning the three elemental dragons the identity of the founding goddesses of Hyrule.

There is proof that the Zonai have legends of the previous hyrule in the depths, where you can find items from previous games

Rauru didn’t check hard enough

Great video, I agree the refounding theory is by far the cleanest explanation.

This makes a lot of sense to me but it does make the forgotten temple seem disconnected from skyward sword

This was the theory that I first came up with when looking into the lore of TotK and both of you guys in the two videos that you guys made together perfectly explain why I think this theory is correct. I can't wait to have a fun debate with my friends about this and tell them to watch the two videos you made together so they could understand everything once they're done with the game's story(or at least all the memories)

Thank you; I embrace the re-establishment theory as the Zelda series is so cyclic. I've said it before, but it's a private joke to me to imagine the three Golden Goddesses sitting around a table naming themes, placing bets, and then rolling the dice to see what happens THIS time a new Zelda is born, while Dorfy-boy and Link reincarnate. XD

Great video. This is what ive been thinking this entire time. Honestly didnt understand why people didnt think this way. Also, i laughed out loud at the Groose part. Great stuff

I'd also add the fact that placing TotK's past after SS would raise the question why the king in OoT would trust another Ganondorf, if they had a landscape altering (literally) Imprisoning War just a couple centuries earlier, with just such an individual, down to the same name? If records of this survived tens of millenia into the future and the royal family is in the know in general, I am sure a couple centuries after the Imprisoning War the king would very much know of these events. It'd also beg the question what the deal is with Hyrule Castle; it was supposedly built to act as a safe guard for the seal, yet it was destroyed absolutely in OoT and later in TP (and if the kingdom crumbled in the Downfall Timeline, there was no castle at all). Some may say it's a 2nd castle somewhere else, but... why? Why would the Hylians build two castles? Makes no sense to me. It only makes sense if all this happens long after any/all of the games of any/all timelines and a new castle is errected on the seal and stood until TotK's present. It may not be as technical as you guys laid out your arguments, but I'd say those are smaller issues that you could put on top. All in all, I am very much in agreement with both yours and Thinking's videos.

14:47 missed opportunity for a hinga dinga durgen

One theory of mine is that the Secret Stones are fragments of the Triforce and they came to be as a result of the Triforce breaking for good from merging the three timelines into one.

Argh I was in the middle of writing a script for this exact topic, but you guys did an excellent job covering it! I’m so glad that people are question the placement of BOTW + Tears, because it seems like so many zeldatubers have just accepted the placement of the memories in the timeline and moved on when there’s still so much to consider. Since you guys covered the main argument against Tears being after Skyward Sword, I’ll give my two cents on the collapse of old Hyrule. I’m gonna get a little crazy, but based on the small amount of proof we have between the two games, I think that the Tears flashbacks actually take place after the original Calamity during the height of the Sheika tech boom. I think the timelines converged and they actually did so well that they had an era of prosperity leading to the invention of Sheika tech. At this time the original Zonai were still on the ground with the rest of the kingdom. The Sheika and Zonai work together to build the divine beasts and guardians to kill Calamity Ganon. The Zonai have a hero capable of wielding the Master Sword and the Hylians have a Princess with the blood of the goddess who work together and take down Calamity Ganon. After the battle, the Kingdom of Hyrule is afraid of the technological might of both races and orders them to decommission the technology. A lot of Sheika do (Aside from those that go on to form the Yiga), while the Zonai decide to leave the kingdom for the skies using the technology they developed. The Hylian Princess falls in love with the Hero or some other important Zonai figure and they leave the kingdom for the skies. The combo of the loss of Sheika tech, Zonai tech, the bloodline of Hylia, plus the possibility of a Sheika-Yiga civil war contributes to the collapse of Hyrule. Up in the sky, the Zonai start to thin out without Hylians to mix their bloodline with and eventually leave Rauru and Mineru as the last of their kind. They decide to descend and find a Hyrule that has regressed to the Bronze Age due to a collapse. Rauru and Mineru meet the priestess Sonia and eventually the rest is History. Overall I think this makes both storylines fit together nicer, and respects the overall history of the Zelda series better than a total reboot. Sorry this comment ended up being longer than it probably needs to be but hopefully someone finds this interesting at least. If anyone wants more specifics as to why I think events played out this way, then feel free to ask. I think this is already too long though lol

Awesome videos Wiz! I love this theory. Even if I personally fall into the "It's all legend" camp, the "merger theory" is cool, too, and one of the few that actually makes sense to me. Most of this stuff hadn't even occurred to me, so great job, both of you!

I believe that Rauru’s Hyrule is the third incarnation of the Kingdom of Hyrule. The first was founded after SS before TMC, the second incarnation was founded by Tetra and Link in WW/PT and after that the timelines merged with Hyrule Warriors and the War of Eras, sometimes after but before Rauru’s time, the kingdom fell again and wasn’t founded again until Rauru

When I heard Rauru say the line in game and now at the beginning of this video, I took it as him joking. His tone of voice makes it sound like a joke in a similar manner of someone confirming your birthday and you jokingly replying “I sure hope it is.”

I’m not sure if everyone realizes Zelda is using the light stone not the time stone gannondorf has the time stone Zelda’s time powers are her own, and the light stone is amplifying them. The reason she appears stronger is because she is, she has both powers, whereas, Sonia and Rauru have only one.

I like the theory that Rauru was sent to help strengthen the royal line, his sealing power in Zelda combining with Sonia time power. Your speculations lead me to believe that rauru and Sonia founded breath of the wild hyrule kingdom and his history has almost faded out over 10,000 years, I like to believe that all the Zelda game lore history are absolute and canon too.

Crazy Idea; TOTK takes place before Demise and the only male of the Geurdo become connected. Ganondorf of OOT is named after Ganondorf of TOTK. Tears-Ganondorf is remembered as a "glourious" leader who was defeated in battle by the Sages. Then, OOT-Ganondorf is born much much later and he has the triforce of power; but the guy he was named after never had access to the triforce of power.

It does make more sense that this is not THE Hyrule, but A NEW Hyurle. We've already seen Hyrule fall apart before in older games like Wind Waker, and we have seen implications that there are other lands outside of Hyrule. So it only makes sense that Hyrule fell once again and BotW and TotK are about the new hyrule

Speaking of Zelda being more Powerful then Sonia, if we take a look at King Rhoam's abilities in Age of Calamity, he seems to use a similar power in his attacks.

there is a huge problem is that there are two master swords: - one from the future which Rauru learns about (he doesnt know that the sword already existed during his times) -the "original" master sword which was lost over time but this one has to be found again to later become the one used in BotW

The key to understanding where Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are on the timeline is the Master Sword. Not only does Zelda acknowledge the sword as "her" as in Fi being the Master Sword, but the fact that Zelda and the Master Sword travelled back in time for over at least 10 000 years makes it impossible for her to have travelled to any point before the era of Hylia Zelda in Skyward Sword. Because if she did, she would have been present as the Light Dragon in every single Zelda game. With the Master Sword. The serious implications of that would be that there are now two Master Swords present in every game, which would complicate the story of those games even further and the entire timeline. It also doesn't make sense for Rauru from TotK to have been the original founder of the very first Hyrule when we know for a fact that Skyward Sword is the first The Legend of Zelda game on the timeline with the first Zelda. The one Zelda mind you who acknowledges herself as being the literal goddess Hylia and not just having the blood of Hylia like her predecessors. Hylia is the original mother of the Zelda bloodline (an established fact), so Sonia can only be a part of that long chain if her claims to have blood relations with Zelda are correct. Hylia in the story of Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom is a separate entity from both Sonia and Zelda, but Zelda is the only one who has Hylia's power of Light while Sonia has only the power of Time. That would also explain why Sonia is not called Zelda, because she doesn't possess the power to seal the darkness, but her power of Time at least would explain why Zelda possesses it too by being blood related. The bigger question that should be asked is not where these games are placed on the timeline (they can only be placed dead last to be able to make sense with all the references to previous games and different timelines), but why Rauru specifically has the power of Light and not Sonia? He and his people are clearly not from this world by having literally descended from the sky to bestow their powers and wisdom to the people of Hyrule. My only explanation for this peculiarity is that the Zonai originate from the same land that the old gods come from. It would at least explain why Rauru is able to wield the power to seal the darkness that Hylia's bloodline possess. Also notice the strange lack of the Triforce in Sonya's and Rauru's era. The Triforce was the most well known and sought after artifact during the time of Skyward Sword with the entire prologue being centred around Demise and the Demons trying to conquer the surface world to obtain this power. If this was before Skyward Sword, then the Triforce would have been very much relevant for Ganondorf/Ganon to obtain during Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. Not to mention that Ganondorf/Ganon is a direct result of curse of Demise, so having Ganondorf/Ganon come before Demise is just beyond silly. Finally, it would be very odd for Nintendo to retcon the game that they themselves pushed as being the first game in the timeline when making the next two games that were likely made by the same people. It just doesn't add up however way you slice it.

This is a much more satisfying explanation, great video!

I always felt that BOTW and TOTK took play WAYYYYY far in the future from the rest of the series (which was why everything from the past was almost myth), and that Rauru established a new kingdom after the fall of civilization in the land. It seems like the Zonai are some sort of extra-terrestrial beings that came upon the lands after they’d fallen into nothingness. But clearly there was some type of history of Hyrule before Rauru became the king, because there are various tribes of peoples with established cultures and feelings towards one another.

Oh yes, I can very much relate to that. I've played TLoZ ever since ALttP (mainly watched my bro play, but still) released when I was a wee lad and really got into it when I was 7 when OoT released.

This was exactly what I thought was happening. Nintendo stated awhile back that BOTW takes place so far in the future, that the previous games don't really affect it that much. So what is stated in this video makes the most sense, thank you for finally saying it.

Huh a Zelda vid that talks about my home province, not expecting that.

As far as timeline placement, Aonuma confirmed BotW takes place so far in the future that previous games are irrelevant, so I'm inclined to believe the simplest explanation: TotK simply takes place at the founding of a new Hyrule sometime after the downfall of the classic one but before BotW. Sonia directly says she senses Rauru's light power and her time power within Zelda, so I think she was more powerful than Sonia simply because she was descended from both of them. But this does leave the major question of lineages unanswered. How could the tradition of naming matriarchs Zelda skip Sonia if she's the ancester of BotW Zelda? And if the Zonai were sky people living completely seperate of the Hylians, how did one of them inherit the name Rauru and become a new sage of light? Were they somehow influenced by Hylian history and don't even know it? How did the name for King Rhoam reenter the lineage?

Another classic Wiz W 😎 Good watch. Gave Thinking At Max Volume a sub as well! Great collab.

MAN I THINK YOUR ONTO SOMETHING!

"Discount Kass" I died lol

I still don't understand were the Zoni came from if the Skyward Sword hylians never meet them in the Sky. I thought maybe the Zoni were the ancient skyloftians evolved in to goat wizards with magic stones. 😅 Also it seems Zelda possess all 3 triforce peices in botw when she uses them to finish Ganon off. That's why no one can poses them. There in Zelda.

Love how fans are making the timeline make more sense then Nintendo

re: power level difference Sonia says in a memory cutscene that Zelda has Light AND Time powers, so it might not be that Zelda is just more powerful, it's that she has twice the amount (type) of power Sonia has. But also; Zelda is the Sage of Time. It's not clear from the memory cutscenes exactly when she awoke as the Sage of Time, but right before Sonia's death, we see Zelda pretty easily manipulating time by rewinding the dagger back at the impostor-Zelda, and during the Imprisoning War she does it again when she rewinds all the other Sages' weapons back at Ganondorf (she's only shown struggling in this scene because it's at the end of a long battle against the Demon King; everyone else is exhausted, too, even Rauru) Also there's that issue of us "not seeing" the Triforce in either BotW or TotK. Except...we DO see it. Zelda in both games is in possession of the full Triforce. BotW when she seals Calamity Ganon for the first time and then again when she destroys Calamity Ganon at the end of the game, and in TotK when she's shown healing the Master Sword; in all those scenes the full Triforce is shown on the back of her hand. So the fact that Zelda is in possession of the full Triforce + has both Light and Time powers + is the Sage of Time = she is UBER powerful even before [spoiler] happens

Wrongru had me laughing out loud by myself xD

Hyrule being destroyed is canon, in wind waker a wish is made using the triforce by the king for that to happen. The hyrule founded after that in spirit tracks is actually called new hyrule not hyrule. Hyrule might be adjacent to it under the ocean still, the deku tree and koroks are actively trying to drain the sea in wind waker so I think the current hyrule is founded after the koroks finish their mission.

I agree. The merger happened in Hyrule Warriors. Not everything went back where it was supposed to be.

Very interesting take on all of this, love the detailed timeline graphics and explanations of differences between the timelines and why things land where.

Great video wiz!! Here for the algorithm!

I have a nitpick, and it's not about the theory itself. It's about how you describe the 'Simple' Hylians. Whilst they do seem to be technologically simple sure, the fact they have symbolic tattooing and Mesoamerican motifs is NOT an indicator of simplicity. So using Aztec to emphasize simplicity is simply inaccurate considering the advanced culture they had. Also the ancient Hylians look Hellenistic with their togas but with the Aztec influence from cultural exchange with the Zonai, who are the advanced ones in this context. Beyond that's it's a great video, and I will always look forward to more

I keep bringing this up on different vids but, one of the things that sticks out to me in the game itself as evidence are the worn-down sage statues that surround the lotus where the Secret Stones are kept. They resemble the ones found around the Master Sword, and also vaguely resemble the silhouettes of the Ocarina of Time sages. Whoever made those knew of that history, and therefore it places OoT in the past of TotK's past (the statues are already there in the flashback to the TotK Sages receiving their stones).

The depths I'm guessing is the old Hyrule.

In BOTW, it’s said a dragon split the Dueling Peaks, and in the background of one of the cutscenes you mentioned, the Dueling Peaks is still in one piece in Rauru’s time. If TOTK came after the timeline convergence as you theorized, then the Dueling Peaks you see in the OG LOZ would have to be re-smooshed together and then re-separated by a dragon later.

Hm, interesting. I think you both are right about timeline placement and I agree with a lot of the conclusions and evidence, though not all of your points fit together: •You pointed out that the Hylian’s devolved to a tribal civilization, which would be impossible….except even with taking away the TotK past, the Hylian society still fall into a reverse with no sign of the high technology by the time of even Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and definitely not in the Fallen Timeline. The best in technology we get after Skyward Sword are in Termina and New Hyrule. Point being, considering how often the Hylians regress after a disaster (see the Fallen Timeline), it is not impossible for the Hylians to regress so far into tribal society only to pick themselves back up with new leadership. In fact, Tears of the Kingdom tells this exact tale. •The Forgotten Temple is insinuated to be the Temple of Hylia in Skyward Sword. That puts the original Temple of Time way, way out there into the Tanagar Canyon. That is very far removed from geographically and if we are gonna use architectural geographical evidence, such as the Sacred Grove’s Temple of Time being a reason why OoT’s Temple of Time no longer exists, then no sign of the Forgotten Temple should exist either being long buried under the ground. Right? Unless I simply misunderstand how ancient structures survive through time, which is entirely possible. •The second Temple of Time in BotW may not have evidence of a connecting room, but it is a man-made structure. Refurbishment can easily patch up evidence of an extra room ever being in there in the thousands of years the Temple has stood. I think a better piece of evidence is the Temple’s decline in Twilight Princess on top of it being completely missing in the other two timelines, likely because of the Flood and the original Imprisoning War/sealing of Ganon making it’s destruction imminent. •This last one is actually a supporting point. Rauru has also been characterized similarly to a young man moreso than a wise king based on texts clarifying him to abandoning his duties in favor going hunting, with Sonia being the one to make sure to get him back and being the one partnering with him in creating the new Shrines. This presumes Rauru to be a very unreliable source of information in regards to how things work in the world of Hyrule, supported by the fact that Mineru is who he defers to for knowledge about his own people.

I'm damn near 50... been exploring the lands of hyrule for longer than alot of folks watching this video have been alive... personally, i don't really care if botw and tears are rebooting the time line... it was a damn mess anyway... besides, these are all just legend, a myth... like religion there's a ton that doesn't add up, but that's ok, it doesnt need to. Just one old man's opinion.

the 7 year split

much to ponder, this was an inspiring video

THANK YOU! I have been saying this for months, i thought this was pretty obvious, but not everyone agrees i guess. Lol

With enough mental gymnastics ToTK can go anywhere, but the merged refounding of Hyrule makes sense, narratively and for devs wanting to simplify their lore. I saw one recently that placed ToTK's Zonai past adjacent with OoT into the leadup to the Downfall timeline. Basically stating that Zelda going to the past caused the original imprisoning war to lead to Rauru's and Ganondorf's sealing being the catalyst of the downfall timeline. Its absolutely insane and has way too many reaches, but its still a fun thing to think about. The channel who made it was Wazoomo, if you have an hour to kill its a good time.

Absurdly long timeskips and tital societal collapses are truly the duct tape that holds the Zelda timeline together. Breath of the Wild alread threw in a casual 10,000 year gap since between game start and the last time Ganon got beat down by sheikah tech. With an indeterminate amount of time between that and the timeline merger point. What's another collapse back to the stone age, mass forgetting, and refounding wedged into that gap. Still pretty impressive that New Hyrule has over 10k years of continuity.

To anyone who wants to try to say "they never cared about the timeline, they're just appeasing the fans": Even IF we discount direct sequels (Zelda 1 & 2, Ocarina & Majora, and BOTW & TOTK), they've been talking about the games' timeline since as far back as the release of A LINK TO THE PAST (the THIRD GAME), stating that it was a prequel to the first two. Then Ocarina came out and that was said to be a prequel to ALTTP, Link's Awakening and the Oracle games were after ALTTP, Wind Waker was said to be a different sequel to OoT (even as far back as this, they had the idea of OOT splitting the timeline), etc. They may be a "gameplay first, story second" kind of development team, but they DO still care about the story.

Tbh it's not really a lie per se. But just the kingdom was lost to time and then reborn sometime later right after a new evil was also birthed by destiny.

Im so happy that I found this channel! I do love TOTK story and the story and characters themselves are amazing. Problem is that the way they delievered the story and how they didnt explain much is what creates the problem in TOTK. For example: Why would Rauru make a truce with Ganondorf in the first place. Would it war be of a better option? The game quite frankly gives us hints. Rauru is hubiris in nature and he would avoid any conflict at all cost, because 1. Ganon has a political power, and there are people whom side with him like some of the Geurodo and maybe even Hylians. Because remember, most Tribes before the Zonai begets their blessing to them only fought for courage and power. They werent at peace and benefited greatly to kill one another. The Zonai came in with heir knowledge to unite some of these tribes and make them one, as well as to get them out of this primitive state they had. It is why Ganondorf have such a malice intention against the Kingdom, because he benefited from all these wars. And 2. The game does have a very poor cohesiveness interms of time, because at minimum, Zelda lived within the past for at least 2 to 5 years. And even more. The reason I think that because there is in no way shape or form, that Ganondorf did all his truce with Rauru in about a day, nor the war between Ganon and Rauru lasted for like an hour. The story shouldve instead shown WHY Rauru made the truce with Ganondorf, and why it was the better solution because it will create major disturbance within the Kingdom itself. Not all tribes obey him afterall. Not to mention that there are two types of Geurodos. Like the Sage Geurodo and those whom followed her, and the Geurodo whom followed at the footsteps of Ganondorf. But the game only shows the aftermath or scenes that are great and amazingly well done, like Sonia and Zelda, but it isnt enough, we need more of it. Two examples is, again, Ganon betraying the young Kingdom and assasinating the Queen of Hyrule, Sonia. They only show the aftermath of Rauru's decision, which is a bad thing. The game shouldve shown us the benefits of why Rauru done that, even having a time skip between the swearing fealty and the assasination cutscene to also give us a meaningful time frame and a meaningful reason. You cant just go directly killing someone after making a truce. There must be a time frame between the events. Not to mention that Rauru saying the line of "it would be easier to keep an eye on him" inplies that Ganondorf does indeed have a lot of upper uand in political power, but once he accepts the truce Rauru granted to him, he cannot just break it and let all the tribes know how awful he is. Rauru made a good decision, but the game demonstrated poorly to the point that it paints Rauru as a bad leader. Again, dont show us the aftermath, but show us the inbetween and why Rauru made this decision. The timeframe between the memories are disjointed and give us no information of the benefits of the decisions Rauru made. The second example is Queen Sonia of Hyrule and Zelda speaking and talking to eachother. It is probably the best cutscene and honestly, Queen Sonia is my favourite character of all time now. She is an amazing character... and the reason why is because she showed her character to Zelda. In the cutscene where they are drinking tea, she was caring like the mother she never had. She deeply cared for Zelda and wanted her the best. She felt as if it was her daughter, which makes it all the more wholesome. It showed her dynamic between Rauru and Zelda so beautifully, but alas, the problem is that we do not see more. We need more characterization of these characters. We need more time to spent with them to feel for them. And to feel what Zelda feels. We. Need. More. Story. You see the problem? Botw's method of storytelling worked, because you also had enviromental storytelling as well as the memories being very simple and not intricate, which also gives a cohesive timeframe. Tears of the Kingdoms story however is more complex and intricate, and the environmental storytelling is very little compared to Botw. But the biggest issue is that Botw method of storytelling interms of memories DOES NOT work in TOTK. The story has more stakes, more intricacy and needs more time to flesh out and establishing a time frame. And again, decisions that shouldve been elaborated further to justify them and see their benefit are left out in the air, like Rauru's truce. I forgot to also say that we need to see more of Rauru's hubiris nature, because again, the story itself is good but what they showed is not enough. You cannot leave the story with no information and only giving scarce hints. You need to flesh it out. Botw method doesnt work, but if you want to do this type of storytelling, you have to approach from a Dark Soul/Elden Ring type of storytelling, which is making a world that is filled with item descriptions, environmental storytelling and indirect means. Which Elden Ring maatered it to the point that I call it a love letter game for Literature. At last, thanks for reading my stupid essay. I loved the story of TOTK but the worldbuiling is very flawed as well as the way they delivered the story. Such a missed potential to make these characters interact with Link, like making Queen Sonia of Hyrule talking to us on the surface, Mineru in the Depth and Rauru in the Skies. These characters are amazing and Nintendo need to put more effort into their stories. We just need more.

I think that the sheer fact he called his kingdom hyrule suggests he has knowledge of a lost ancient civilization of the same name An that he wanted to emulate the myths or legends of one such kingdom in his own way to him the stories of the Hyrule we know may have just been fairytales told to him by his elders etc

This is what I came to the conclusion of when I first heard Rauru say he was the first king and you guys just made such a good case for it.

I'm more of a casual Zelda fan. I played the first Zelda on the NES and the one on the Super NES when I was a kid but I haven't played any of the other games until BotW. I just finished TotK, and I feel like I missed so much lore. This video was amazing. It is fun and well put together. Thank you guys. I have subscribed and look forward to more videos from you both.

This makes so much sense!

The Time Temple thing is making me think timelines leaked into each other somehow and in LoZ for Switch 2 we might see the effects of these ripples in time.

The part that I'm curious about with the timeline is "What was the event that caused 3 separate timelines to merge"? There's no way three completely separate timelines with radically different events all lead to a single point, since then there'd be 3 different histories to Breath of the wild & TotK. However, these games seem to have.. hints, that all three of the timeline's histories have all happened.. despite the fact that it's three different parallel worlds separated by a clear dimension. This probably means that the merging of the timelines wasn't something that happened naturally, but rather some kind of divine intervention that smooshed the three histories together and possibly resulted in not just the destruction of Hyrule, but regressed the hylians to such a tribal state. I mean, Imagine a history where hyrule just gets obliterated by two separate disasters.. is abandoned by a portion of, or the entirety of the Royal family to start a new kingdom on another land, because the current Hyrule was impossible for them to recover.. leaving a large majority of the Hylian citizens to fend for themselves. Perhaps at some point, New Hyrule is destroyed beyond repair, and the royal family comes back to hyrule to recolonize it, only to find the remains of the Zonai? This.. comment has definitely spiraled far too off track, but I honestly would like to see a game about the convergence of timelines, perhaps a "final" wish is made with the triforce that causes it to shatter that merges the 3 timelines. Perhaps the final boss of that game could take place after this happens, since it doesn't make sense that the royal family or the hero would make such a wish, or even be aware of time travel outside the legend of the hero of time. Not going to count hyrule warriors as a means of "merging the timelines."

I think with Rauru being a repeated name, this is a retroactive reboot to make you think his influence was there all along and that oot rauru was named after him. Like the 3 eyes of the sheikah and them maybe being descended from the zonai with how the ancient blades function identically to the ancient arrows of botw. Tears of the kingdom doesn't feel like a true story of beginnings to me, it seems like they're closing the book with a little bow. Mineru and Rauru are the last of [pure] zonai but we know Zelda is part zonai (her dragon form's ears actually look pretty zonai with how the fur covers the tops of them and fold just like rauru's). Very weird of them to not show Sonia's kid running around in the background or something, like it doesn't seem like they even have kid(s). Sonia has to be of hylia's descent but she isn't named Zelda, presumably, no one has been named Zelda for awhile for them to not recognize the name. It's hard to make sense of it through any other lens that's not a reboot. "Everything before now were just stories and legends" meaning that details in past games could've been wrong or are now inaccurate. Unless the picori evolved into the blupees there's only proof that they have been replaced. The Hyrule Historia isn't consistent either, they change stuff up every now and then, they're bound to make a new installment that places this game somewhere in "the timeline"

Cool Video And Theory.

The groosenator!!! Hell yea haha I repeated that part like 3 times

not quite on topic, but _Skyward Sword,_ in addition to being about Link searching for Zelda, forging the Master Sword, and defeating Demise, should’ve also been about Link and Zelda uniting the various peoples of the land and sky and founding Hyrule. also, Links role in the story should’ve been 100% his choice, and not something he was destined or chosen to do by someone else…Hylia and Demise would’ve been locked in an endless stale mate of good vs evil, but Link chose to intervene and tip the scales towards good, with this paradigm rhyming and resonating through the ages and subsequent games.

I feel bad for calling you pretentious now, you're fighting the good fight by killing this fan misconception. Think of my comment calling you pretentious more of a playful tease of the overly nerdy/brainy quirk your videos have, rather than an attack on your character :) I really like your theories.

It's probably some universe/link-between-worlds/time-travel mechanism that allowed the timelines to communicate with eachother in some form. Once that occurred, whomever obtained the complete triforce through all of chaos between timelines wished for all timelines to merge and the civilization to start anew albeit not perfectly which is why we have aspects from all timelines in the newer games(buildings, geographic locations, ect) but the citizens start anew in this constructed world(which are all just variations of itself because the land of hyrule is the same in all timelines). The Master Sword can only be present in one instance at any given time though, and the hero is necessary to utilize such sword,(otherwise another type of sword is probably made for a hero) so it probably has some time/timeline/universe travel aspect going on. Be noted, there can be multiple triforces in existence - this is proven in A Link Between Worlds so this is very possible. Additionally, I think hylia(Zelda) would be exempt from this clearly with the spirit of the hero, and Demise's malice incarnation as well and would survive such a merger and not be hindered by such limitations. Hyrule would be "founded"(again) for as many times as necessary considering the circumstances in such a land. A simple example of this is placement of the "Kingdom of Hyrule" from Minish Cap. This entire "Kingdom" can be found on a small section in the northeast part of the BOTW/TOTK hyrule map. You can map the entire game's(minish cap) geography there, and it is a tiny area(but it fits perfectly in line with minish caps map). Also consider that Minish Cap is one of the EARLIEST kingdoms of Hyrule and there is little to no evidence of such a castle of town existing by this point in said area in BOTW/TOTK, maybe due to geological activity in the area considering it's right next to death mountain and various types of land, BUT IT IS THERE and matches up perfectly with said game. Additionally, I think you're correct regarding speculation of Zonai Rauru "founding" a Kingdom of Hyrule, yes, a singular one, one of many that have been "founded" and "established" over the ages within timelines and time-frames. Here's ny TOTK map, with Minish Cap locations marked. Im sure you get the idea here. Markings may not be 100% accurate, as geography is now 10000+ years old. Imgur here: imgur.com/a/YJSNiS2

The Child Timeline's last entry is Four Swords Adventures (which is also chronologically the last game before BotW. Ganondorf reincarnates and tricks Link and Zelda into unsealing Vaati. At the end both Vaati and Ganon are sealed inside of the Four Sword. It's possible that centuries after that they were again unsealed, releasing both Vaati and Ganon at the same time and completely devastating the Kingdom of Hyrule and functionally wiping it off the map leaving the few surviving Hylians with almost nothing before the Zonai descended

This is so convoluted that I understood absolutely nothing

Also at 13:05 the look on zeldas face. That should be the bew pikachu meme face 😅😂😅😂

A little late to the party on this one but its also worth thinking about the fact that the Secret Stones specifically amplify the inherent power of the user. In this instance, Ganondorf amplified the latent power inside of himself which manifested in him becoming The Demon King. Which makes sense if you consider that Ganondorf is the fulfillment of the Curse of Demise placed on the blood of the Hero and the reincarnation of Hylia. It makes total sense that his power comes from a small amount of Demise' power inside of him which, when amplified with a Secret Stone would result in, well, The Demon King, or at least an approximation of him, which I think is a fair way to describe Demon King Ganondorf. All of which only works if this all happened after Skyward Sword. The *only* fair alternative i can think of would be that maybe the realm we fought Demise in exists outside of time so the effects of the curse extend in every direction through time in a 4D way, but thats a bit much to think about right now.

Definitely agree with this timeline placement, putting it right after SS just leaves too many inconsistencies. The existence of a new Ganondorf pretty much confirms it as well, if ToTK's past took place where people were thinking OOT and 4 Swords Adventure Ganondorfs couldn't exist since there would still be an incarnation of Demises Hatred existing under the castle; leading to no more male Gerudo's like what was mentioned in BoTW.

I played every console Zelda, huge Zelda fan, but I notice there are 2 types of extreme fans, those who care about the timeline and those who don’t, timeline doesn’t matter to me as I treat every Zelda like a new story all of its own, only Zelda 1&2 are directly linked, and OOT and Majora’s mask are directly linked, including Botw and TOTK, everything else is a story in its own… I like seeing the story linkage theories but other than that they are just entertainment to me

Hey Wiz~ I'm still not fully convinced about a refounding, but I've been opening up to the idea. That said, I have one point to make about the “new” Hyrule Kingdom in Spirit Tracks. This quote comes from Anjean; I have the Japanese kana, a translation, and the English localization. Kana: うむ おぬしじゃよゼルダ姫おぬしら一族の故郷 はるか遠い地の古き王国ハイラル…その王家に代々受け継がれし聖なる力… Translation: “Indeed, it’s you, Princess Zelda. Your family line’s native land is the ancient and far away Kingdom of Hyrule… A sacred power has been inherited by its royal family for generations…” Localization: “A vessel from the royal line of ancient Hyrule, with sacred power coursing through its veins.”

This is actually how I imagined the placement of BOTW and TOTK in the timeline would work. It just makes more sense and wouldn't make any sense for TOTK taking place earlier in the timeline as that would create so many problems, many of which you discussed, but another problem would have been there being two Ganondorfs.

Another great video!

Really love your videos! I just wanted to give a suggestion for the clicking the audio, you can remove it by going into noise reduction/restoration on premiere and apply automatic click remover and make your audio much cleaner! I really love your voice and I just want to help :D

14:20 That's just dumb if nobody knew you were in a place until 600 years of your arrival, you didn't discover shit, you just casually landed there.

So someone wishes for all timelines to come together then? That’s the only way I see them coming together.

The main reason I think TOTK's memories can't take place before OoT is, that would mean that Dehydrated Ganondorf would exist in all 3 timelines, and he doesn't. I've seen two theories that make sense. First is this one (the memories take place in a new Hyrule that Rauru founded after the old Hyrule fell). The other is creative and states that Zelda going back in time changed history and that's what truly created the Downfall Timeline (meaning Dehydrated Ganondorf only exists in that timeline). I don't know which I prefer yet. But BOTW/TOTK are DEFINITELY either in a merged timeline, or the Downfall timeline.