Jonathan Pageau really helped me realize things about my spiritual materialism I didn’t realize such as shying away from the “hard stuff” such as fasting and being more drawn to the easy and good feeling things

30:40 Jonathan is so right. At the end of the day, each of us have to commit to a specific spiritual path, rather than trying to have a 'God's-eye View' of all the paths.

Listening to this I'm realizing that, having listened to John's AFTMC in total, that I don't lie to myself anymore. Very thankful.

Vervaeke’s appreciation of his peers in the Wisdom field is deeply skilled.

I sincerely have been waiting for this conversation. I am a follower of Jonathan but I favor Buddhism over Christianity originally being Christian myself. I have been waiting for someone to corner Jonathan about his Christian exclusivity. I'm not that familiar with John...but I like what I'm seeing about him.

Vervaeke - thank you for modeling graciousness to someone you might disagree with - so genuinely and beautifully done ✅

You have to search with a pure heart...then it gets unfolded to individuals in layers of progression occurs.

It's consciousness. When a person looks inward and begins to wake up to who they really are, they realize they are connected to everything and everyone. It can be felt. I was born and raised Catholic. It "felt" wrong from the time I made my first Communion. I knew I would never be a practicing Catholic. I worked in a Methodist church for 8 years as an adult. Organized religion would never be for me. I began a meditation practice maybe 18 months ago and it has led me unto a spiritual path, not a "religious" path. I have discovered joy, happiness and peace really for the first time in my 53 years. The energy/soul/spirit that resides in me, is the same that resides in you and the tree in my yard and the cat in my lap. More and more people I believe are waking up to this right now than ever before. I only wish the people running the world could wake up. Wars would be over. We would lift others up not drag them down. It's about love. It's who we are. All of us. 💜 Sorry for going on. I follow all kinds of spiritual teachers Buddhist, Hindus, Jesus, Ram Dass, Rumi...whoever gets you there. Love these videos. ❤️ 🙏

Fabulous, challenging, interesting and inspirational. Thank you David, John and Jonathan.

Thanks so much for this, these guys have their finger on the pulse of society right now

Tbh, I have always wondered why i, my parents, grandparents, my kids are responsible for the original sin; or being made to feel guilty by Church. Thank you RW, JP, JV...this was enlightening.

Was introduced to your channel recently, a much needed sword of reason and truth cutting through the madness and falsehoods of contemporary "culture"! You should get Neil Kramer on, his philosophy really compliments that of yours and your most of your guests, however I feel he'd add a more embodied and lucid mystical or hermetic angle to things, something currently missing in the narrative I feel. One of the great mystics and philosophers living today and still relatively unknown. Keep up the great work, you're inspiring a lot of positive and lasting change!

PLEASE get ken Wilber and Jonathan Pageau together. Would be absolutely exceptional. PLEASE!!!

Excellent dialogue! Looking forward to more!

We are still the same humans, where old symbolic patterns are repeated in new ways. Yet our proliferation of choice does pull the current culture towards Vervaeke's MMA preference. Jonathan's concerns are well-founded though and deep bespoke spirituality I'm sceptical will scale successfully in the market dynamic. To break outside that dynamic we'd need some very convincing new science (or a vast culture shift), to persuade the layman (and governments that are responsible to them) of what they need.

"Higgelty Piggelty Religion of ME" LOL!!!!!!

Wonderful discussion. So good to see this topic back on the table. Spirituality has to be embodied. It also has to be experienced within a collective, and not just be an individual pursuit, which can quickly result in mere naval gazing and little spiritual growth. It is essential that it is not just a belief system, not just theories, but practice. However, it is also necessary for there to be a framework which is needed to interpret the experiences. The best book I have come across that covers this topic with great depth and breadth is Ken Wilber’s “The Religion of Tomorrow - A Vision for the Future of the Great Traditions.” Incidentally, he is not standing above religious traditions, but merely pointing out that there is growth in the understanding and experience of religion. It is never the tradition, but the individual and collective understanding of these traditions. He is definitely not suggesting that we just throw out the bits of the traditions we no longer resonate with. He never says transcend and exclude, but transcend and include, and he is adamant that the mythic levels of understanding must be kept, since they are vital steps of development that we cannot do without. Please get Ken Wilber on so he can defend himself against this grossly simplistic misrepresentation. And it might help to actually read Ken’s book before offering any criticism. Yes, it’s a big book, but who’s afraid of a big book? Or perhaps it’s just fear of a big mind.

The key is “ Stop the worries “

Thank you all.

Have you looked into Patricia Albere's Mutual Awareness Practice (for me, that led to co-experiences of causal plane) or Mukara Meredith's Matrixworks (working with groups as living systems, through which I would often see identity shifted to a larger organism, that of the group)?

I think a possible approach to the issue of 'original sin' as discussed here can best resolved as defined by Mr. Stephen Jenkins in the podcast with Bodhi Be in August 2020

John's answer from 1:04:00 was top notch.

Ken wilburs science is backed by Clare w Graves science of developmental psychology...I would say it's fairly solid.

David's face when Jonathan said he thinks we should go back to Christianity instead of creating new practices.

This is very frustrating. Let's take the example of Pythagoras, Thomas Taylor's translation, Symbol 5: "Declining from the public ways, walk unfrequented paths" (do not heed the opinion of the masses). Wisdom, unfortunately is not something that can be cultivated as a "collective intelligence". In what period of human history has there been a collective wisdom to speak of? History is rife with human ignorance, frailty, and fear. Let's not confuse the idea of how the world "ought" to be with how it actually is. In fact, many ancient Platonists and Pythagoreans (in fact, many Eastern traditions as well) consider wisdom and "the masses" as mutually exclusive. Let us not aim so high and wide with our ambitions. With every step forward toward "spirituality", the increased dangers and evils arising from it increase in the same proportion (if not more). It's a razor's edge after all. Vervaeke's point on zombies being a new modern phenomenon is interesting, but if that's the case what are the Pretas in Buddhist cosmology? The insatiable hunger of a ghost derived from the death of an avaricious person? In many ways we're different from the ancients, but in an equally number of ways the human condition hasn't changed at all. Also, symbols can never be "understood"; the moment you understand a symbol you've lost its numinous quality--a symbol cannot be defined or explained, it can only be experienced. It's also an Orthodox polemic to state that gnostic systems are a dualism of evil world and ultimate escape to benefic heaven---in many cases it's true, but in a number of gnostic systems, it's false. Jung's view wasn't that Gnosticism was a dogmatic religion, it was a creative expansion of the collective unconscious contents. Let's be honest, there were many competing interpretations and expansions of Christian writing, but the victors managed to banish any "heretical" understandings. We're moving into the "Problem of Evil" and the "Goodness of God" and thereby minimizing the presence of evil in the world as a "privatio boni". Our biggest problem here, hinted at in the conversation is ego inflation (we may think we're moving in the right path and be completely deceiving ourselves). This is not a task for simple or complicated solutions. This is a descent into the netherworld, to meet all the spirits that constitute your soul.

Christ heart and mind spoke truth about Father Time, and he was the example for us to emulate, we can conduct selves now as he taught.

"Find a home" after doing research he says, but I have been doing that for years and I am still looking! ;)

The way I understand symbols is that they are a kind of heuristic. Some go out of use faster than others. Unless for example it was a cave painting or engraved on ancient stone or whatever. Simple as that.

I feel like Jonathan said the same things the last time I heard him speak with John Vervaeke

There are evil entities, anyone who denies have never experienced or felt on a spiritual and physical plane.

Talk about it, you can’t find one mind. Individual need to dig deep in your own mind . 💗 work individual but important can’t do it with an worry’s mind. Take care of individual mind STOP the worry first. And then find the answers of your own. Finally everyone can see it!!

We all have egos and unconscious behavior. Religion address this but so does philosophy, focus, mantras ....so does just being a human. Simply as a child does, before culture of upbringing program....simply connect your heart and mind.

33:39 John is it not because the research doesn’t have or does not involve finding the right tools to identify the distinctive advantages of those religious or philosophical narratives? Just because is not concerned with that? But with what seems to work for the time being to your specific purposes?

The mind of human can become one of individual,meaning you individual needs to work itself. It’s individual no need to understand it unless you really wanna know then, I am sure you can find it!! “ No worry!! “

@59:00 Johnathon talks about the need to preserve the "goodness" of Creation? Which in my experience of trying to understand & embody the "spirit of truth" that drives both prophecy & philosophy, can be understood & experienced as the goodness of creation that each human being is born with? Which is to say that we all have a higher nature capacity to understand and transcend our "reflexive" nature? IMHO the "frame" of a meaning crisis is a "psychological" perception of reality that is fundamentally flawed? And in my experience the "existential" cure for our taken for granted perceptual illusions is gifted to posterity in the spirit of truth "symbolism" of the crucifixion? Especially during an era when much of humanity is taught the "circular" nature of the space-time continuum we are immersed within, while at grade school? IMHO Jesus teaching gifts to humanity are about "reality" nor "morality?" Hence the greatest secret of all time is hidden in plain sight, in the "picture paints a thousand words" scene of the crucifixion & its "specific" mention of the "hours" of "light?" Both Joseph Campbell & Carl Jung spoke of the seasonal aspect of nature & time that is depicted within a story about "personal" experience as the fulfillment of "end time prophecy." Which due to the "perennial" nature of our human imagination is bound to prefer the "phantasmagorical" over and above the less imaginatively exciting, natural nature of reality? The natural nature of "embodied-time" gifted to us by Plato in the opening lines of Timaeus & espoused by Jung in his book on the personal experience of Synchronicity? A sense of reality that is in my experience overwhelmingly about "sensation" awareness & NOT about thinking and its "habituated" temptation to "name" every aspect of our experience? IMHO this where the largely North American driven mind-set creates a !st-world "economies" meaning crisis, in response to the fading power of Western intellectualism, while being barely aware of its me & my like minded tribe motivations, during a period of truly unstoppable Globalization? If we really want to understand the "universal-wisdom" within the world's religious traditions, then do we need to step outside the "morality" frame of a perennial interpretation & explore the "embodied" nature of "being" that is at the core of the "founder's" personal experience? Neither Buddha, Jesus or Mohammad experience the goodness of creation within a group and I believe the "collective" perspective espoused by John Vervaeke in particular is based on the "subconscious" attachment" need we all have, yet deny in our postured pretense of being autonomous self-secure, perfectly self-conscious beings? Here in Sydney, Australia the "conceptualized" sense of reality we name the month of October happened to 'gift" the perception of both Sun & Moon within the the period of Earth Axis rotation we learn to name "day-light." And in order to honor the great wisdom story of creation I was raised with & to embody its experiential, "spirit of truth"" meaning, I did this. Facing due North I hold my arms with left hand covering the Moon & right hand covering the Sun with fingers relaxed & slightly open, as I feel the "motion" of the Earth turning to my right side. While simultaneously stilling the habitual motion of mind by refusing the temptation to name what I'm experiencing. I use www.timeanddate.com/sun/australia/sydney to keep an eye out for the most opportune times to experience this cyclical phenomena of space-time, like the 2nd of October here in Sydney when the setting full Moon in an absolutely clear sky was a golden color as I waited for the red-shift of dawn as the sky began to turn blue & dim the Sun light reflected of the Moon's surface. While the reflection of the Sun shining on the harbor waters was a glorious deep golden yellow, as the turning Earth brought the sky bound alignment of sun & moon towards a horizontal plane. Which I believe is the "spirit of truth" interpretation of the goodness of creation embedded within the narrative of a crucifixion/resurrection experience of personal transformation? Not the crucifixion of the body, but the "mind's-abomination" of a habituated and falsely conceptualized sense of reality? And what is resurrected in my experience, is the "spirit" of the Universe that created us for the purpose of its own Salvation, which our children's children's children will make a manifest reality? As, paradoxically, humanity becomes those Gods & Goddesses of Greek Mythology? And using my now well-practiced understanding of the Polyvagal Theory map of the "unseen"structure & function of my Solar System evolved Nervous System, I embody the "goodness of creation.' While this "real-time" experience of reality is curiously well depicted in digital form in Rebel Wisdom's "image-graphic" presentation of practicing Vagal Breathing: www.filepicker.io/api/file/9pKtXKJWT0O4V1ouluJf

This is phenomenal. I am going to force time for checking in on discord again. Thank you for the upload and participation.

Hesychasm was a new ecology of practice brought about by putting together different things. It's a quite new way of contemplation

The breathing trees call forth the wind through dance. John speaks wisdom to the poet and the hummingbird appears just now.. Hey I'm a poet guys! Their comes the crow as we flow. Wow talk about distributed cognition.

"That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and the mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world Israel

Please help me discern what John says at 1:04:25 ... Doctor has to have what ?

Heaven is on earth! Not just per say a future but a Now peace. Jesus discussed this. We experience our spirituality - most importantly or equally important....Here and now! And we experience rewards spiritually Now..., I gathered great Indians from from Eckart Tolle teaching. So many are mind only and also unconscious. We do have an afterlife...our now life effects the future. Our now effects our now.

I love you Adriana. I had the same question

Man this came out so much better than the Jordan-John talk…. I think Jonathan is just going to have to take Jordan’s place.

AA teaches a God of your unique wiring and understanding. Or belief in the group who is happy and flourishing. Each persons perspective of creator is valid. And of their choosing.

Father Time. Mother Earth. 🌞🌍🌙🌟🌗 What is MMA ? I will research. Don’t know some technical terms, but like this discussion on ponderings.

KZfaq gives me an ad to join "Knights Templar"...

35:50 another answering the same thing of what Jonathan says to the mma question is to show that mma fighter, although learned in various different techniques, they usually come from one specialisation, they are stronger in a specific art. And that is analogous to what Jonathan was saying. If you try to learn all without fully committing to one more than the others you will end up losing!!

Epistemology: propositional Techne:procedural ?: Perspectival Gnosis:participatory Can someone fill in the term for knowledge that is perspectival?

I am a neophyte here and this question might be stupid, but it literally just popped up... What are vaccines if we see them as a symbol of what is happening these days? Are vaccines something like noahs arc? I am not debating vaccines... Its just that listening about "the end of the World images",somehow I thought of them. Anyone kind to comment on my question?

111 Neato!

linearity doesn’t exist at any level, that leaves archaic models constantly needing renewal, where as science is new every minute.

David Fuller needs a better mic setup. Guests ok. Great show though.

The essence of Christianity, unknown even to many "Christians", is compassion, as exemplified in the parable of the Good Samaritan - who in fact wouldn't have been "a Christian".(The Nazarene had a sense of humour informed by an ironic turn of mind.) PS: Do our precious computers understand such things? About as much as hammers and pliers do.

I am here

22:06 "Higel-de piggel-de religion of me", hilarious 🤣

I noticed the similarity of the "guilt" idea in identity politics being similar to the original sin concept. However, instead of thinking I had to "turn myself over to some outside entity" to alleviate the guilt, I just assumed that the supposed guilt was impossible to avoid or alleviate so I just shrugged and decided to ignore it. If a problem can't be fixed and it doesn't seem to be terribly urgent, just move on.

Japanese “Hikikomori” or pulling inwards

1:20:05

LOL. JV on Bureaucracies: "The simultaneous Diffusion of responsibility and Redistribution of blame (guesturing downward)." In the Biz, we call this, 'The Shiz flows downhill.' Any future AI bureaucracy will have to keep us around. Human error is essential.

Jonathan I get you , the old believer will die. Ofcause only someone can move on. Meditation and work out inside your mind and dig deep ( you can’t explain it, only you know ) you get there you will know.

I don't kneel to someone else's Traditions making me a sucker.

I'm so glad to hear that there is "an absence of religion!"

Pluralism of religious experience? I doubt it's real, although there's some value when it serves to ritualize human behaviour in a social context. In my personal experience, the religious experience only grows out of self-awareness, and the embodied metaphors of the experience of being alive and suffering. This is when we start the process of finding meaning to our existence. Existing traditions may help but there's no substitute to participatory knowing.

I just wanted to be your first comment

One of these men is more Christ like than the other. Can anyone guess which is which?

The gnostics, who of course didn't call themselves gnostics, were as various in the 1st and 2nd centuries as are all the denominations today, so it's hard to pick out one characteristic to define them. But I'd say that the main difference between them and the Christians who went on to dominate the Church is that the 'gnostics' were oriented towards symbolism and the 'orthodox' towards literalism. Literalism is what made Christianity a mass movement because everybody could grasp it if they chose, but it's what today, with increased general education, is it's downfall. It's fascinating to read the Epistles of Paul with the knowledge that he was trying to speak simultaneously to both tendencies and, in fact, both sides claimed him as their own. I think that Jonathan in some ways is doing the same thing. He thinks symbolically, he has 'gnosis', but he's not going to abandon those who don't, a duty which means he still has to adhere to or be faithful to the 'literal' somehow. That is not an easy place to get to.

Jung "channeled" a spirit Philemon to "see" the subconscious and Jung's Classical Education (Greek, Roman gods, etc)gave him a (limited) means of expression. Jung barely noticed a "steam locomotive" that some people thought had "a ghost in the machine". Jung's Red Book informed me that Jung's "archetypes" were from HIS particular education. To be "educated" today by Tolkien (who wrote a Red Book (like Jung?) is adopting old, worn-out "meanings" that DO NOT provide an understanding of standing at the wing of a 747 emergency exit, air-legs adapting as you perceive yourself moving at over 500 mph into a state of "ecstacy" that Jung could never know or imagine - in short, Jung and Joseph Campbell are out-dated, being superceded by the evolution of human thought and understanding.

Where is the proof that people who are religious are wiser than the secular?

RW, JV & JP are my holy trinity :)

Meaning crisis = conflicted meaning = meaninglessness driven to seek meaning from a basis in lack and conflict. All the king’s horses and all the king’s men...could not put Meaning together again. Silence is full of being - and as an infinite field of potential - is the source of all Resonant recognition as 'Good'. And behold He saw it was very Good (God). This resonance is the Source and Nature of our own. Behold this is my Beloved who is my delight! And who has seen Me has seen the Father. All this is 'ultimate' and yet is the embracing meaning of all that is - seen truly. The ability to symbolise meaning in image and form is the capacity to identify (as) the image and form in place of the reality - and in this is the 'set up' for the Fall,as the loss of an era of form based reality to a broken constellation that locks down and masks in shifting narrative 'meanings' that mask in the derivatives of primaty archetypes as the replacement for God as The Archetype - Formless and yet within - or through all form of expression. The direct recognition of meaninglessness is the release of the attempt to use it. But the use of meaninglessness as a meaning - or leverage of generating meanings, is the persistence of the belief that we make meaning - rather than extend an already truth and reconise by reflection and resonance. The 'Holy Spirit' serves the revealing of what was never hidden to the mind that sought to hide in meanings of its own making. Discernment is the grace and gift of Self-awareness restored to embrace and expand or transcend the bounded and limited mind of judgement. The revelation of self to Self, (God is) is an intimacy that none can come between and is not IN the world - and yet is a basis for being in God as an extension of being in the world of a shared being or indeed Communion that is rich, diverse, and challenging as the unfolding or growth of perspective or experience as extension of the Creative and not merely creature. IE Job. So if THAT intimacy is Religion, organised religion is a self contradiction - and indeed ALL attempts to bring the New Wine into the old normal of habituated 'meanings' or perception responses, result in double-vision and double-think, rolled into narrative masking that identifies the 'ideal' as if divine template - by which the world of active creation is rendered a pale and worthless copy. Such that empirical experience (stacking up' as Jonathan calls it) is sacrificed to the Model, the Image or the symbolic representation in mask set over the Life that is the original of all image and form, but not contained or define in image and form. Science and spiritual enquiry both seek to uncover the Already true. Spiritual enquiry extends this beyond the world of sensed reality to the intuition of the Always Already true. The Holy Spirit is the in the willingness to ask, or 'knock' and through that actively accepted willingness 'comes rushing in' - (Father of the Prodigal) - because never in truth has been absent. Our willingness to release the drive to make meaning, is the freedom to recognise exactly where we are through a self-acceptance that receives a greater embrace. I describe a 'territory' that is native to all regardless of the meaning-structures of cultural differentiation, but the masking of the 'world' isnot just fig-leaf thinking, but thorns and terror symbols that effectively protect the freedom to choose to accept truth. For without the freedom to choose illusion, would truth be without relational extension, and alone without a 'Son' through which to OPEN and Be All That Is - as Infinite Perspective within which we are even now focusing in, attuning to, calling forth and embracing in desire. That we can experience limitation as conflict, division, struggle and polarised identity set in guilt of fear is not to say this is in truth being Done unto us - and yet that is our mythological masking in Separation trauma, as a locked-down split off mind, set in confusion of choices that effectively conceal where fear set us, which at a deeper level of masking conceals where we ARE coming from Now - always already now. But not at all in the terms or frame we have learned to identify and adapt to. So the revealing of truth is the New Eyes to see what has been taken to be a reality or set of meanings constructed to a thought system, such as to refine and transform and redeem what we 'made' in a self-differentiating sense of driven reality - for as Truth is Freedom of being, Illusion (taken as true) must always be driven by its inherent conflict. However as a book close to my heart says; Nothing Real is threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the Peace of God. If we are not at rest in being, we are actively investing in what we want to be, what we fear to be, or hate to have become and noticing this is the freedom to reevaluate our mind, our focus, our thoughts, perceptions and responses. All experience and its underlying symbol are redeemable to their Original - but the nature of resurrection is the spontaneity of arising from the release of invested self-illusion. Or we do not DO it so much as bring what we are to a transparency to presence that of itself turns us about, or undoes the reversal of thought set in its own judgement. This is the touch or gift of the Holy Spirit upon what we have made (meanings that we recognise to no longer make sense or serve, and so we choose not to choose to use them as the basis of our thought, or guidance. This prepares or opens the way for what is already moving our being to register with us and find acceptance, regardless the symptoms of temptation to indulge in the personification of drama.

The worries = Anxiety

I see insights from everywhere too. All is One human composed of body, mind and spirit. Religious institutions have given many a repulsion to anything spiritual.

Damn this one was buried

"Collegiate practices?" Like drug-taking?

Jesus obviously taught from the Hebraic tradition but He seems to have at least anticipated if not ordained Islam and was very much grounded in ancient wisdom traditions that shared a common thread with Adamic and Abrahamic.

Saving Religion's points, it sound Great! Personally !

There is NO religion higher than TRUTH

36 minutes into listening to the video, and I feel amused by so many phrases that begin with "I think". Wisdom doesn't live in what "I think". Wisdom arises out of realization and experience and is often communicated with words/thoughts.

MMA analysis is on point- but you start in one tradition - also there isn’t an easy octagon in wisdom- the Buddha had a hard debate/rap battle rule that you MUST speak from experience & the rules were to submit to the winner but conceding your whole path - everything was at stake- it was based on realized understanding & a clear goal of enlightenment as a master standard.

The current prevailing metaparadigm - modernity - has given us much. That is clear. Yet it has been a double-edged sword, because it has also taken a lot away from us. Arguably, the most important is loss of deeper meaning. I suspect that this will return to us only when our consciousness changes fundamentally, at both the individual and collective levels

The New Testament is all earlier than the gnostics, and the fathers all draw on the Apostles teaching Scriptural and Traditional, there is continuity. Gnosticism is a parasytic reinterpretation of Christianity from its Jewish, Creation affirming Incarnational foundations in terms of an alien whether Greek, Persian or what have you antimaterial, anti-body direction.

Not everyone is athletic enough to develop MMA within themselves, yet, everyone must fight. So the Loser Bracket forms a religion about underdogs.

Maybe a holiday?

I think Christianity is like an MMA, it has absorbed the best outside ideas and “christianized” them

Lol that's what a meeting looks like in 2020

I don't really understand either of these men's perspective. I fully understand John's "trauma story". Typical of Trauma Victims, he is not disidentifying from the "Victim of Christianity" Identity. That is what Trauma does. But I would expect him to have some self-awareness about at least that much considering his cognitive accomplishments. Maybe that's not a reasonable expectation. I once knew a Philosophy Prof. who couldn't tell up from down in personal relationship conversation. That shocked me too. But he will never be able to accept someone who is doing their Christianity in such a way that doesn't traumatize people until he can see the perceptive problem that has captured his heart and mind. All Tauma Survivors are challenged with this issue. And why can't Jonathan just start out by apologizing for what assholes and failures who call themselves "Christians" do to people? Yes, we are responsible for how Jesus is perceived by outsiders or others who suffered at the hand of complete failures of Jesus' Vision and Mission. Even if I didn't fail John when he was young, those who I spent time identifying with did and few things grieve me more than this problem. There is nothing wrong with this sense if grief. Paul shares it. Jesu curses the religious leaders who make it too hard to "enter" the Kingdom for the young, weak or differently-abled. He wasn't cursing non-believers. He was always taking shots at the most piously religious of his own religion. This sort of collective self-awareness is a fundamental part of the religion that got lost when the Church was offered a seat at the Table of Power. Why isn't this humility - which has been taken back up by many Christians since the 90's - the starting place of a conversation with John? He won't be able to disidentify from his Victim Identity until it is. We must Witness his story - which he still repeats with the same emotional distress like all Trauma Survivors do - and dmonstrate our group culpability. We have failed. Period. As for Wilber's stance as Judge, yeah he does have authority to point out our failures. Because we have abdicated our own authority to do so. That's how failure works. If we don't apologize for our own failures, someone else will eventually bring it up and demand it of us and deliver consequences if we deny it. Do we think we are above the Law of Love which saved us in the first place? IDK... I've passed this hurdle - along with alot of other Christians - decades ago and I don't really understand how anyone could have stayed behind who isn't just one of the jerks - which Jonathan clearly is not. Confusing...

everything Rebel and the Wisdom does, is for a profit model. This continues to exclude ‘wisdom’ as ‘freedom of speech’, the internet was designed as a community of wisdom, yet by creating a paywall to profit, all that occurs is another narcissist process of protectionism, or failure. Wisdom arrives in many forms, protectionism arrives in expectations of greatness, yet complexity as espoused by the Rebels, is not Wisdom, it is a religion unto itself, that can not explain itself to the lay person. Does the ‘Rebel’ truly believe it is futuristic, if it can not include a simple dialogue for people to understand, yet only continues to use force in endless dialogue with no implementation possible. To continuously expound on platitudes, entirely creates another ‘ism’ of division. If one wonders what an ‘ism’ or an ‘ist’ truly is, then realize the colonial christian can only deliver the labels, while not critical of itself. This is why the colonial can not understand the indigenous, because ‘correctness’ is to proceed with always pointing the finger at the ‘other’, while believing the self is correct in its own complexity. Reconciliation is about the ground, the growth of living things, and not the continual growth of destructive linear processes that keeps getting repeated. I feel this group is very often on the path of discovery, yet the wisdom is shut behind a door at every juncture of payment and profit, with the capitalists model. The capitalists model (an ist) the derivation of gain from nothing, is continually at odds with humanity, nature, microbial shared networks, intelligence and wisdom, the wisdom is the human that grew further in capability than sentience and sentience grew further than intelligence. Capitalism is for ‘smart’ sharing is of ‘intelligence’. Other formats allow live commentary on youtube, and the use of discord to have the unprivileged to attend. A Phd, is just for one moment in time, a book written, is merely another moment in time, a degree, is merely one direction, yet of all 360 directions in choices, the knowledge is vast and the directions as Schmachtenberger has said, have no specialty to one field and to be schooled, or ‘educated’ has no purpose other than to repeat the ‘school or education’ in narrowing fashion, we call ‘industrial education’. Again the knee jerk reaction to take down another, only serves energy to ‘remove’, in Buckminster Fuller terms, this is not a ‘new model’ it is the ‘old model’, in order to have a ‘new model’, it must be more ‘attractive’ than the old, revenge is not a new model, it is just condemnation of another, to no path forward of intelligence, but entirely a spent energy of justice served by pointing fingers. The planet is finite, it is in dramatic decay, people are willing to change, yet leadership is to drive the bus over the edge while forgetting the passengers.

This John vervaeke guy tries to intellectualize life so much, but religion is an invitation to live through the heart. The problem is "I think I think I think." Try feeling instead of thinking and that'll connect you to your higher self.

Ya'll still doing word salads and ignoring global fascism? coo

Listening to this right now, both are being far too generous to one another to the point of...appeasing one another. What I see here that is problematic is BOTH, are coming with a certain back view of their history....what they don't get is... unity, balance, unconditional love, empathy, compassion...what I call "equilibrium", can only come from a full, total, fundamental change using the basics of, all pearls of wisdom, from religions, or whatever background. Then all parts of the whole agree on the basics of one union or all in communion with one another. For instance, there should be no left or right, right or wrong. simply...love harmony and balance. Talk like this will go on forever, and that is what has already happened. There is nothing new under the sun. If things don't change, they will stay the same. Peace and love out.

Vervaeke sure talls a lot without really saying anything. JP should consider distancing himself from these IDW clowns.

This whole discussion was superficial and lacking depth, insight or analysis. Learnt nothing.

Very heady conversation between two white men, lots of words saying???not sure what🤷🏽‍♀️, lots of ‘I think’. This is not what we need right now. I came because the title interested me. Please open up the perspectives! Yes we have a meaning crisis in our American society, particularly in white America where greed and dominance pervade everywhere. Bring in the women, bring in the people of culture who have deep ancestral ties to bodies of wisdom that look very different than what these two men are talking about.