Rebuilding Mercedes Lifters

Рет қаралды 65,083

7 жыл бұрын

A quick DIY on how to rebuild the hydraulic flat tappet lifters found on basically every 90's Mercedes DOHC engine. That includes, the M104, M111, M119, M120, and probably a bunch of Diesel engines and maybe some 80's engines too. These lifters were originally manufactured by INA, and they never fail. On a properly working lifter, the oil that is inside will remain inside for the lifetime of the lifter, so that oil never gets cycled. Eventually what happens is that oil may start to varnish, causing the check valve to sick open and the lifter to collapse when the cam lobe strikes it. You can also use this guide for Volkswagen engines, they use a similar lifter design.

Пікірлер: 89

@compu85 14 күн бұрын

Thanks for posting this. Super helpful. Looks like these lifters are NLA now.

@williambiggs2308 6 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the excellent information and video. I had no idea about the enclosed oil.

@TasosMoschatos 6 жыл бұрын

Hi, it's a 6 inline m104?

@imjinriver641 5 жыл бұрын

Great explanation. I recommend putting a coffee filter over the Qtip, as Q-tips are not 'lint free'.

@PatsCarGarage 5 жыл бұрын

That's fair, I was pretty careful with the qtips not to leave any stuff behind.

@TasosMoschatos 6 жыл бұрын

My bad, after commenting I read the description :)

@Bociek010 3 жыл бұрын

I appreciate this Video. In my case it is 20lifters to rebuild for OM605 20V. The car is not a typical daily and I like to make things in on my own. Besides I think the OE lifters are better quality than current available Febi or SWAG ;)

@PatsCarGarage 3 жыл бұрын

I believe the OE (at least for the m111) was INA. I always look for the OE when buying parts, only going aftermarket when they make a better part than OE (or OE is no longer available). If you are fixing things yourself, you are already have the biggest savings not paying the shop rates, you might as well get quality parts and never have to do that particular job again.

@Visionery1 5 жыл бұрын

An excellent video! To be honest, these are so cheap, is it really worth the effort? I had an issue with a lifter on my MB M102 engine. Sometimes I would have hard starting, a misfire and noisy lifter when starting from cold, other times not. I narrowed it down to a faulty lifter, losing oil when the engine stopped the night before with the lifter in the compressed state. Rather than hunting down the faulty lifter I just replaced them all (less than USD70 for the set of 8).

@PatsCarGarage 5 жыл бұрын

you can't just swap lifters in, the bucket has to wear into the camshaft (and vice versa). You can swap in new internals into a previous bucket, but you can't even move the lifters around, doing so could damage the camshaft. The M102 only has 2 valves per cylinder, but on any engine with 4 valves per cylinder, these cheap lifters get really expensive really fast.

@Visionery1 5 жыл бұрын

@Pat's Car Garage, I've since replaced all my lifters, the lifter noise at start-up is gone. The brief misfire was caused by a dripping injector, replaced them all, misfire now also gone.

@xN8GZx 4 жыл бұрын

that BP joke lmao 🤣🤣

@Mitutumuch 3 жыл бұрын

wats bp lol

@Akya2120 2 жыл бұрын

@@Mitutumuch British petroleum... I know, it was a year ago and you probably don't even remember the comment.

@Mitutumuch 2 жыл бұрын

@@Akya2120 ooooh british petroleum.thank you much friend!

@TheMssFoxy 3 жыл бұрын

What is the usual life span on lifters? I am thinking about replacing/ rebuilding mine on my om602

@PatsCarGarage 3 жыл бұрын

The lifespan is usually "something will happen to you or your car before any sort of failure, making it either not your problem or not a problem at all". But sometimes (as in my case), the lifespan is "indefinite, but needs a cleaning after 20 years or so". Ever since I've published this video, my engine noise has gone significantly down, and I don't have any more lifter tick.

@WEEChannel-in4wi 3 жыл бұрын

Did you have noisy/ sticking lifters? And did this cleaning alone make them all function correctly and quiet again?

@PatsCarGarage 3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I had one which was sticking (never tried to find which one). Cleaning them got rid of the ticking noise, and actually made the entire engine much quieter overall.

@paulknight1332 3 ай бұрын

@@PatsCarGarage I had an annoying tick on my M119. I removed the top covers and rotated the crankshaft and checked each lifter to see if any had collapsed. I only have 1/32 to clean. A lot of work but hopefully the annoying ticking will be gone. Thanks for the video, very informative.

@ullyeus86 5 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the video! I'm gonna give this a try on my sticking M103 lifter. I'm a huge fan of "try to fix everything first instead of spending money to replace them". If I screw this up then I'll just order brand new ones. Nothing to lose there :p

@PatsCarGarage 5 жыл бұрын

It's honestly pretty hard to screw up. The worst that could happen is you lose the tiny spring, that's why the magnets are essential for keeping everything together. Other than that, the steel used in these components is harder than tool steel, so you can't even damage it by using pliers or whatever (you shouldn't need to though). If you do end up swapping them out, the ideal thing to do would be to use the new lifter's internals in the old lifter's bucket, that way there is no break in between the camshaft and the new lifter. This is also why you need a system to keep trick of the lifters you remove in the first place.

@ullyeus86 5 жыл бұрын

Well apparently m103 has a completely different design than the m104 and they're either sealed shut that it won't budge no matter what I tried, or it was seized. Oh well ended up ordering one unit. Such a bummer because I was really looking for ward to save so $$ hahah

@daveg2113 Жыл бұрын

Great video, I wonder if this would work on Porsche 944 lifters

@PatsCarGarage Жыл бұрын

There's a good chance it does. Lots of German engines used a similar lifter style around these times.

@w124mercedes7 2 жыл бұрын

This won't quiet lifter tick will it. Is this the same lifter type as the 0m603. Mine are ticking a bit. Wouldn't it be easier to soak them overnight in carb dip or other solvent.

@PatsCarGarage 2 жыл бұрын

It worked for me. I doubt simply soaking them in solvent will be enough, you want to get all that nasty oil out first.

@Fungaricum 4 жыл бұрын

Everyone says that the used lifters are not interchangable but frankly I don`t understand why. The lifter is not filled up completely with oil before putting it back on the engine, so the oil pressure is going to compensate for the slack just exactly as much as it should, regardless of where the lifter was before. The external surface of the bucket (or crown?) does not really matter either if it`s worn together with the tappet bore, because it rotates, so it won`t be back in the same exact position anyways. So why to make such a big deal about this? Very cool video btw.

@PatsCarGarage 4 жыл бұрын

Admittedly for me this is something I've heard from somewhere else and passed the information along. However the way I've interpreted it was that the surface of the bucket wears to the camshaft lobe it's under, not to the walls of the bore it sits in, and that's why they are not interchangeable. Apparently if you have a lifter failure, you can simply swap the new internals to the old bucket and you can avoid having to do any sort of break-in procedure (changing oils, additives and what not). Thanks for watching!

@Fungaricum 4 жыл бұрын

@@PatsCarGarage Yeah, this is what I`ve heard too, and it makes sense. I still don`t think it really matters though, because the lifter rotates in the bore, so there should be a circular dip in the center where the cam lobe runs. But I`ve never seen anything like that in the engines I rebuilt. I think if the wear is not detectable they are interchangeable. It`s always a good practice to put everything back on as it was, but it`s not a tragedy if you mix them up, if the lifters are not worn out. I`m rebuilding my Porsche engine now and rebuilding the lifters too because they are expensive if you want to replace all the 24. So your video is a huge help, it`s the same INA kind lifter. How do you make sure that there is no air trapped in the bucket?

@PatsCarGarage 4 жыл бұрын

@@Fungaricum Well actually you shouldn't worry too much about air being trapped inside, they are pressurized by the engine's oil so if there is some air inside it will eventually find it's way out. It actually is a bigger problem to overfill them with oil, the valves might actually not rest against their seats, which will bring all of its own problems. Indeed they are expensive to replace, but they hardly ever break so all they need is a proper cleaning to get them back into working order.

@abditorius 4 жыл бұрын

If I put too much oil in the lifter, will it adjust by itself over time?

@PatsCarGarage 4 жыл бұрын

If you put too much oil, it's best to start over by emptying it out again. They do slowly bleed down overtime, so depending on how pressed for time you are it might not be a problem. Basically it's better to start with not enough oil and let the engine's oil pressure adjust them up. If they are really overfilled the valves might not even close all the way!

@abditorius 4 жыл бұрын

@@PatsCarGarage Got it

@samurboi8007 2 жыл бұрын

If i want to replace my lifters, id need to get new camshafts aswell so they wear together correct? Not sure if thats worth it but it would be nice to not have 280000km cams in my engine haha

@PatsCarGarage 2 жыл бұрын

So in theory yes you would need a new cam. However you could also replace the inner part of the lifter with new parts, that would avoid needing a break-in. Cleaning them is usually all it takes to restore them.

@omarcalakovic 3 жыл бұрын

Best cleaning of them is with diesel.Separate and dissasmbly inside elements and put all of that in diesel for few days and you will see what gunk is gonna go out.After that take screwdriver and old towel and twist inside to pick rest of gunk

@PatsCarGarage 3 жыл бұрын

I think using cleaning solvents is a better idea, diesel will probably not clean any varnish that may have formed on the insides of the lifters.

@Mitutumuch 3 жыл бұрын

hey partner I'm at this step in my rebuild the shop says the block will take about a week and I've got high hopes for my chain. lol. but that never pans out right anyway. I have 1 main question and an idea id like to run by you. The main Question is regarding the hydraulic valve lifters locking ring on the outside of the inner part of the hydraulic valve lifter. In the video you mentioned the "Locking ring on the large part of the piston" at 10:11 of the video. I hope the timestamp helps too haha. But does this part need to be taken off I believe you said you did but not in the video but I didn't quite understand completely what you meant by this. I will likely find out if you don't reply but I still would like to ask because I watched this entire video and wrote down with drawings and stars with explanations of everything from this entire video so that when I go ahead and decide to do this I have no hiccups. I thank you so much for putting your time and effort and putting together this GODLY assortment of videos to help fellow m111 owners complete their own repairs. My second kind of idea that I wanted to run by you was about changing the timing chain and moving the crankshaft kind of a two part idea question i suppose. With the cylinder head removed, wouldn't it technically be easier to change the timing chain without even having to unlink the old one if I were to take off the front timing case cover behind the water pump and crankshaft pulley. Behind those is the bolts for the timing chain cover and I wanted to know if you thought changing the chain as well as cleaning out the oil from that location could lead to be a good maintenance idea? Yeah there's like an extra water pump gasket and then just the crankshaft seal, but is the chain able to be just unlooped? or does it still have to be disconnected, is it on a type of rail of some sort? I seen a picture and I wasn't convinced of this which is why I'm asking you, as your knowledge has gotten me very far and I value your input. I appreciate you getting through my comment I know its quite long but I do appreciate this very much. Thank you again and I hope that i wrote this was clear enough for you to understand.

@PatsCarGarage 3 жыл бұрын

For your first question: you don't have to remove that locking ring, it's only there to retain the piston body within the bucket if you will (I admit it's been a while since I've done this myself). It doesn't play an active role in the lifter's function, and I don't see how dirt could get underneath it. Soaking it while it is still attached to the piston should be fine, and honestly, it's such a small part that it would be easy to lose it! Especially since it's fitted on quite tight, it could fly away never to be seen again. For your second question: I wouldn't go that far for a few reasons. Cleaning-wise, that area is how the oil returns to the crankcase from the cylinder head, it's not an area that would pool old oil that would need to be cleaned out (unlike the lifters!). In general however, the m111 has a double-row timing chain, which have a very long service life. I did my cylinder head at around 220k km, and the chain was just coming up 1/2 way through it's service life, so it could probably reach 500k! You can measure the chain stretch when you are doing the camshaft timing, with a brand new chain, the 2 camshafts will lock together at the timing mark, however as it stretches, the exhaust cam needs to be rotated a bit further independently for it to lock in place. The allowed difference between locking the 2 camshafts is 10 degrees, I was at about 5. All that is to say, if your engine has less than 500k km, you don't need to replace it. Thank you for your kind words, and I am really glad my videos helped you!

@Mitutumuch 3 жыл бұрын

@@PatsCarGarage thank you so much Pat for your helpful insights and great memory! yeah thats exactly what I was afraid of was popping it off amd boom its gone. my tensioner spring was a bit shorter then the new one so I will have to time it up and see how it all fits. Originally I fucked up because zi followed MB procedure which takes the tensioner out lbefore I was directed to make the cam marks. So ill have to check under and make sure, i dont think itll leak much though. so then the best bet is to get it hot and then change the oil. hmm. i just noticed the oil seems to like get more solid as my head is off. I just dont want that oil going anywhere near my new head. When I pulled the cylinder head off I got a pool of coolant that came out of what I believe was the back chamber of the cylinder head, OR the coolant was trapped in the cylinders. so IDK. man these machines are beautiful and worthwild to learn and build and its such a shame how easily someone could let one of these prized possessions go downhill. Mines at 137k miles right now it had a bad tick around 1300 to 2100 rpm. only there lol. literally. thank you again I look forward to making a thank you video with a shutouts to you aswell! take care thank you again!!!!

@PatsCarGarage 3 жыл бұрын

@@Mitutumuch By the way, I have a video for timing the camshafts, it's got some important information so I suggest you watch. You don't have to mark the camshafts, the timing marks will move anyway once the tension is released and they will be useless. Timing the engine is not difficult though.

@Mitutumuch 3 жыл бұрын

@@PatsCarGarage yeah i had noticed that you mentioned that in the Removal of Cylinderhead about exactly what I did lol. but I would essentially just line up my exhaust mark back to where it is, the chain is marked where the sprocket ended and began on the intake and exhaust like with a paint marker. and I took pics of the cams before but Im assuming you just assemble in Perfect Timing and the tensioner picks up whatever slack is left? just finished 8 lifters. ive got 8 to go. The wood trick is absolute Goat. I didnt believe you at first but then I was like well fuck maybe hes onto something. and I tried it and boom came out like a dream. Nicked my finger nail pushing the lifter back in. you deffinately notice if you put too much oil in the lifter and in the piston.

@Akya2120 2 жыл бұрын

I have an OM606.910 and suspect i need to do this. I do wonder if an EDM sized hole could be a controlled leak that lets the oil cycle without losing functionality. Something like a drop of oil per million revolutions would be sufficient to keep the oil from sludging.

@PatsCarGarage 2 жыл бұрын

I think race engines sometimes do something similar, perhaps for different reasons (adjusting for tolerances on an engine that runs much hotter?). I don't think it's necessary on street engines though, they should already bleed down a tiny little bit when cold, but I guess after 20+ years that wouldn't be enough anymore.

@Akya2120 2 жыл бұрын

@@PatsCarGarage well, the thought is that I don't want to go through cleaning it and putting it back together for another 20-25 years of I could have it EDMed and never have to touch it for the life of the engine. I'd probably have the bottom of the piston drilled at like 0.001" (maybe even less) that way it lubricates the valve stem ever so slightly, and cycles fresh oil through the lifters.

@PatsCarGarage 2 жыл бұрын

@@Akya2120 Keep in mind : most of that crud probably built up from the less advanced engine oils of the 90s. With modern synthetics I think we'll be fine.

@Akya2120 2 жыл бұрын

@@PatsCarGarage that night be true. I wonder if there would be a particular oil to put in those initially that would be a better choice than standard motor oil.

@PatsCarGarage 2 жыл бұрын

@@Akya2120 If you don't have a DPF, then any MB 229.5 oil.

@vvasilev1 2 жыл бұрын

I can not understand what is the detergent in which it is cleaned?

@PatsCarGarage 2 жыл бұрын

The first step I left it in a degreaser. Second step I used a mixture of acetone and xylene.

@Rycoda 5 жыл бұрын

a cylinder head shop messed up my lifter arrangement what do i do???

@PatsCarGarage 5 жыл бұрын

I would treat this as an engine break-in. Use conventional oil and add a break-in additive. Run this for 500km using your favorite break-in tricks and then go back on your usual oil.

@Rycoda 5 жыл бұрын

@@PatsCarGarage thank you for such a quick reply! I will break it in like you said. much love from southern california!

@Rycoda 5 жыл бұрын

@@PatsCarGarage these pistons inside the lifters wont budge!! i've tried hitting them each on a piece of wood for 30 minutes.

@PatsCarGarage 5 жыл бұрын

@@Rycoda You do have to whack them pretty hard but they should move. You can also try grabbing the pistons with pliers and pulling them out (don"t worry, the metal is hardened, pliers won't damage them).

@Rycoda 5 жыл бұрын

Pat's Car Garage thanks I hit them pretty hard on the cement with a towel then used some pliers

@keenenwarren7165 Жыл бұрын

Can anyone confirm this would work for OM603 turbo diesel

@chiliphil64 3 жыл бұрын

What is wrong with brake clean or Petrol?

@PatsCarGarage 3 жыл бұрын

There are better solvents for the job

@ckawaokaw 4 ай бұрын

This one from whole 16 valves !!! 5555+

@renebrinnich28 3 жыл бұрын

do not touch with magnets. They then become magnetic and collect metal debris and break faster.

@Akya2120 2 жыл бұрын

This is actually really true and if you are going to use a magnet, use a demagnetizer. Even still, better to be careful and not use a magnet.

@samurboi8007 4 ай бұрын

magnets made the job hell, spring and ball wouldnt seat properly for a majority of the lifters

@lsmalley 3 жыл бұрын

You're saying the oil remains in the lifter for the lifetime of the lifter. If it can get in the lifter, it can also get out. But on another note, this was good information, however, unless you're working on a project car, I don't think this approach is practical. The lifters are only about $10 each and so buying new lifters would be a better solution. If the job only takes about 3 hours to replace with new ones then it's much quicker and cheaper than spending an entire day.

@PatsCarGarage 3 жыл бұрын

If you're lucky, the cheapest I could find the lifters was 20$, at 4 per cylinder, it adds up quick. Now imagine you have an m104, m119 or an m120... The oil does not flow through very fast at all. Once they build pressure the oil just sort of stays there. You saw how black the oil was when it came out...

@lsmalley 3 жыл бұрын

@@PatsCarGarage you have to shop around, but Autohausaz has them for about $10 - $15. However, I would not skimp out on critical parts or parts where the job is pretty involved like a water pump on a m103. So you end up paying (let's say worse case scenario) $480 for the lifters that takes you 3 hours to complete. Still cheaper overall as the job will not need to be done again for another 20 years :D

@PatsCarGarage 3 жыл бұрын

@@lsmalley Unfortunately shipping up to Canada from Autohausaz tends to remove many zeros from one's bank account.

@FunashiMwamba 4 ай бұрын

I followed this procedure too than spending more than $200 for lifters for an old motor. If I had a 2014 motor I would buy new lifters instead of rebuilding

@wawaron1407 4 жыл бұрын

Your video is very good, really, but too dark...

@PatsCarGarage 4 жыл бұрын

Yeah that camera wasn't the best

@georgecurtis6463 6 ай бұрын

Or just use mobil 1 or any other sunthetic oil. I got rid of lifter issues on new customers cars by changing the engine oil to full synthetic oil. Our customers never developed any lifter issues.

@PatsCarGarage 6 ай бұрын

That's not a guaranteed fix, this car has been on synthetic oil for most if not all of its life.

@georgecurtis6463 6 ай бұрын

@@PatsCarGarage I suppose not. But if its having issues and you are using syn oil then I suspect it's time for them to be replaced. My so called history with this was around 15 years of hundreds of engines. Not one had an issue. Just a suggestion. If one wants to do what you did then your video is very helpfull.

@PatsCarGarage 6 ай бұрын

@@georgecurtis6463 I had one lifter that was ticking from time to time. So I cleaned all of them and now the ticking is gone. No need to replace anything if a simple cleaning will do.

@slimansiryou9440 2 жыл бұрын

Owww...top😴

@TheReal1953 2 жыл бұрын

Two words;ultrasonic cleaner. Great vid otherwise! WD40 is not a rust penetrant...just a water disperser...anything is better like PB Blaster et al.

@PatsCarGarage 2 жыл бұрын

Well it doesn't make sense to buy an ultrasonic cleaner if you will only do this once. It can also be hard depending on your area to dispose of the solvent. WD40 is reasonably good at stopping rust from forming in a short period, and it's what I had on hand.