There's a sentiment among some rather sad folk that my dismissal of the idea of deradicalization is condemning all conservatives as irredeemable. They're not. But they can get themselves out of that hole of they want to. The resources are there. My objection is to the hero complex that treats conservatives like kids being lured into a windowless van. They're not. They're adults, they can get themselves out of the hole. They do not need to be rescued by you. People who aren't convinced by studies aren't going to be convinced by shouty edgelord Marxists who don't know how to shower.

Two things really stood out to me in Gideon’s scene. The first being how he immediately apologizes to Judy upon seeing her. Like he couldn’t get it out quick enough. Almost like he’s been practicing what he wanted to say for so long in the event that he would end up running into her again that he pushed himself to say his piece before his nerves got the best of him. Judy didn’t even have to say anything about the incident to get him started. The second being that he didn’t ask for forgiveness, all he wanted was a chance for Judy to know how sorry he was for treating her badly. Judy could have responded in a lot of ways, none of which had to be acceptance, but I bet he didn’t expect Judy to empathize with him in the end.

A lot of people claim to "love" "slow burn" but when it's not literally just abuse or unresolved sexual tension suddenly they want to teleport from point a to point b

Never underestimate the power of friendship, family, and being horny for the redemption of tyrants and overcoming evil.

I love the fact that in Steven Universe they establish the whole gems poofing thing and that never crosses the character's minds it was just shatter or hugs, a violent yet non lethal solution was baked into the story but they still bent over backwards to make the Diamonds good with wordfu.

I’m noticing a pattern with what makes a redemption arc good or bad. A good redemption arc has the villain of the story try and change their ways and actually try to be better. Peridot, Shimmer and Gideon all change because it’s their decision and they want to do it to help people as well as themselves. A bad redemption arc is when the “hero” of the story just hands out a chance for the villain to redeem themselves while disregarding everything that villain has done to other characters. Glimmer, Andy and the Diamonds are all just told to change their ways despite the villain never considering that themselves. I think the main reason the first way is better is because it actually lets the villain have a chance to be a proper character. If people want to slap the term ‘deep’ or ‘complex’ on a character, then just let them make the decision themselves and make the arc 100% about them as an individual. It not only gives the villain a chance to seem sympathetic because they’re choosing to change their ways themselves. But it also won’t reflect so badly on the main character by not having them just hand out forgiveness on a platter.

A lot of shows really neglect how valuable it is to let go of people who won't change and cause you harm. This is SUCH a valuable lesson for kids, but so many shows are obsessed with keeping the peace and "fixing" people, when adulthood generally teaches you that good ol 'no one changes unless they want to' lesson. Teaching kids to try and redeem abusive family members is a pretty dangerous one to put out there but it's rarely challenged. Thanks for another great, thought-provoking video, Lily! :)

Just to add to the rushed reception arc trope there’s also the ones where the character is the villan or just a bad guy for a good majority of the film or tv show, they get The Redemption Talk, and then they die for the hero. Instead of trying give them an arc or even just saying their good now and help the hero, the just kill the person off so the hero can feel bad and think the classic “oh maybe they had a point” garbage

Zuko got more flack from the Gaang for being a traumatized (albeit dangerous) child of a despot than the Diamonds got from Steven for being despots themselves. (Dear God, I hope that sentence made sense.)

Regarding Zootopia: I wonder if Gideon had gone through anything like Nick's childhood flashback, being the target of no-holds-barred bigotry and concluding that if he'll never be seen as anything more than a savage predator, he may as well embrace it.

I think the best non-redemption arc in recent media is the Nowhere King from CentaurWorld. They gave us the backstory that would be used to make the viewer sympathize with him, they separated the "evil" side from the "good" side, and at the end they had him return to what he was before everything went wrong. They had every ingredient to make a compelling redemption arc. Yet despite all that, he DIDN'T get his redemption. He never had an "I forgive you" moment. Instead, the person that ostensibly was the catalyst for his entire evil arc ended his arc with death. Because no matter how much he apologized, or regardless of how pitiful he may be, those that were murdered by his own greed and self-loathing will never come back. His actions were irredeemable, and the show made it clear that regardless of how sad your backstory may be, that's not justification for your own terrible actions. Then there's white diamond.

Catra’s “redemption arc” was so … passive. She just switched sides and worked with the group, and didn’t really have to put in the work. Sure, she suffered a lot, but she didn’t really DO anything. . Even on my first watch it was just one of the worst parts of the show. If she had really proved herself, actually apologized more sincerely, and cleaned up her messes, it would have been more believable.

Whenever i saw villains get redemption arcs i was like: Dude, they are totally lying. Trust me they will betray the character a few episodes later cuz a real character or person wouldn’t just randomly turn good. Then i turned out to be wrong.. but also right.. I got the initial part wrong about the betrayal but the real character or person wouldn’t was right.

I just don't understand why the idea of just killing the villain had fallen out of favor. Everyone gives the excuse of "it's a children show." But kids shows had been killing their villains since the 80s, and the only ones who don't are shows for really young kids, and ones that have a cast of recurring villains. Of course the ones that do kill their villains will inevitably be labeled as "not for kids" by 30/40 somethings who cried in the theater at Transformers the Movie.

One thing I think is interesting is that the *other characters* forgiving the villain should be its own place(s) in the arc too. Like it all depends on who and what was done, but some characters are going to forgive straight away, some are going to need to see genuine proof the former villain was trying before forgiving, some forgive but never accept the villain, and some never forgive.

I gotta say, of all the characters I expected to hear about, Gideon Grey was seriously off my radar, but I'm happy to see him here. A more grounded view of attempting to atone for past sins and be better is really refreshing, even compared to the other positive redemption arcs. And maaaan, I felt my disappointment over Golden Guard grow again with your preview. We really missed out on having an unrepentantly evil trash child, and we are poorer for it.

Something people really seem to forget is that a tragic backstory SHOULD NOT excuse evil. It can explain some decisions, but that doesn't forgive them. Punishments still need to be met out. Some villains have just done too much to be redeemed.

You mentioned time but another element that I will forever associate and argue is essential for a good redemption arc is that they’re ultimately very personal stories. Actually, unless the character clearly crosses a moral line like genocide what they’ve objectively done wrong scant matters when compared to the personal harm they did to characters we care about. Using Gideon Grey cause no seriously, when we’re introduced to him, he’s already bullying some other kids. He does also bully Judy but she wasn’t by any means the only victim, implicit or explicit. He hurt other people beyond Judy, yet that don’t really matter. Ultimately what does is that he apologises to Judy, to the character we care about most that was hurt most by him. His apology scene is ultimately a blink and you’ll miss it moment too because people remember the night howlers revelation a lot more than the apology. With Zuko too. He does objectively atone to the rest of the world over what his family has done, through joining the Gaang and life as FireLord later but that’s either passive in the background or post-mortem. What matters is Aang, Sokka (And Suki) and Katara, him atoning to them. It’s even a joke that Toph never got a life changing adventure with Zuko because she never needed it. Well, beyond burnt feet vengeance. All those very effective stories... well, take their time to be personal, to let the characters introspect about why they did what they did, how that harmed the people around them, and ways to atone. Actual changed behaviour that includes a change in the What, How and Why of the behaviour. Most importantly, it is that intimate and personal element that makes their impact last. Like you said, a redemption arc is a change in motivation, a change in a character’s why. That’s probably the most intimate part of a character and it takes time to dig deep enough to see it, much more to change it.

As much as I love Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, I have to say Baron Draxum’s redemption was not done well. It’s not entirely the writers’ fault since the show was cut short, but what we ended up getting was Mikey basically forcing his family to accept Draxum as a “new dad” despite the fact he kidnapped Splinter and effectively ruined his normal life and has tried on multiple occasions to kill the turtles, like when he threw Leo off the roof. Oh and let’s not forget Draxum wanted to eradicate all humans or at least turn them all into mutants against their wills. And Mikey is all like “he’s family” when all Draxum did was make the turtles into what they are. Parents don’t get a free pass for terrible behavior because they are your parents. Heck, Draxum barely qualifies as a parent, Splinter was the one who raised them. If Mikey want to have a relationship with Draxum, that’s his choice. But he shouldn’t have forced the others to as well. They should’ve forgave Draxum on their own terms in their own time.

This is why I love adventure time with the ice kings story. He was our main villain at first and at the end he stood with our heroes, yet he still never had a "redemption" arc. Him being 'evil' to him being 'fixed' were all almost entirely out of his control.

I've got pretty strong rose-colored glasses for Steven Universe - when I watched it, the overly wholesome conflict resolution and exploration of emotional wellness came at a time where that was something I really needed in my life. But you've nailed down the thing I've never quite been able to describe about why the ending of the series felt so off to me - the diamonds' redemptions weren't earned. We were shown that Blue Diamond was deeply grieving Pink's shattering and received several hints that over time, this caused her to start rethinking her life up to that point (beginning to work to preserve organic life in Pink's memory, deciding not to shatter innocent gems that had nothing to do with Pink's death simply because they were the same cut, questioning if there was a worthwhile purpose to the colonization efforts). In an alternate timeline, the writers may have been able to give Blue some sort of satisfying path to start trying to earn a redemption, but Yellow and White were fully antagonists right up to the last 15 minutes of the entire freaking series.

Honestly I think Hunter's redemption arc has been fine. Lilith's though... that was basically just the seaso finale. Hunter got quite awhile where he honestly struggled more than he probably should have to try and reconsile his morality with his loyalty. You could see cracks forming in annoyingly strong armor of cult-style indoctrination

I think Hunter definitely falls into a good arc because he never was even evil, as shown in the sport episode even while he's still brainwashed he's still caring. He even protects Luz before he learns of any of Belos' actions. He's a good hearted person who's manipulated into believing something bad is good, his arc is learning how things work and changing his world view to match it.

I think a common problem when it comes to writing is that people don't know the difference between a redemption arc and a tragic backstory. You can give a villain a tragic backstory, and that might explain why they're a villain, but it doesn't always justify the actions of the villain. However, time and time again, when a writer wants a character to turn good, they just flash their backstory about how they loved their mom, and she died in a fire at the puppy shelter while dad did nothing to save her, and the show/book/game is like, "Don't be mad. They're sad and had a reason for being sad. Ignore the part where they wore a person's skull like an athletic cup."

I think an aspect that gets really fucked over in redemption arcs, is the forgiveness part. So many stories take an all or nothing approach and have the character getting better and just automatically becoming part of the main group, or friends with the characters they've hurt. It reminds me of the mentality that nice guys have about earning sex. For the redeemed character, it just a given that people will forgive them, because they're a good person now. They've 'earned it'. For example, lots of people forgive and try to empathise with their abusers or attackers as part of their own personal journey and healing, but they still want to see that person punished, go to prison, or cut them completely out of their life. I would love it if more characters had a redemption arc where they weren't forgiven, and now they just have to live with that. Or some people forgive them and want to rebuild, while others never want to see them again. There are so many different ways to approach it instead of this one size fits all mentality Forgiveness and relationship rebuilding shouldn't be an automatic part of the redemption arc, because it belongs to people they hurt. It needs to be part of those people's arcs, their journeys.

You can only be redeemed for so much. I think zuko does so well because from the first few episodes you already see him figuring out his internal stuff. He makes mistakes, he is young, he puts his trust in the wrong person (his dad), and he tries to be honorable and noble but doesnt know what is fully right and wrong. He struggled with it from the start and other characters showed more evil that he would turn against and disagree with. The entire story is him finding what right and wrong is. He ends up finding it. Then in other stories are often the worst people imagined becoming fixed after someone is like "hey stop guys"

Honestly Rebecca Sugar is just lucky that the awful ending of the Sardonyx arc was overshadowed by what came directly before (the introduction of the fusion and the episode that focused a lot on Ruby and Sapphire), and what came directly after (the entire Peridot redemption arc and the episode focusing on how Ruby and Sapphire got together). Friend Ship was just yikes on a bike all around.

The problem I have with a lot of people discussing Redemption Arcs is that they keep confusing redemption for _penance._ People don’t want characters to genuinely try to be better people, they want characters to eternally feel bad for bad things they’ve done, no matter how many good things they’ve done afterwards. If the character isn’t in a permanent state of self-inflicting deprecation over their own misdeeds, people take that to mean that the character in question isn’t actually ‘sorry’ or that they haven’t actually ‘learned anything’.

Andy Mayo could've been the one moment in the show where Greg or garnet could've told Steven "Kid, as big as a heart you've got sometimes people don't want to change. Sometimes the only ones that can change them are themselves but at least you've tried." That could've fixed so much and we wouldn't have had that really bad finale where they redeemed the diamonds especially white diamond.

Zuko's arc is so great, one of the best in TV for children, as it respects both the characters, its own world, and the audience watching it.

While I didnt really get into Batwoman, I did like how they showed this whole 'I can fix the villain' gets you nothing but unnecessary casualties. So while Batwoman lets the villain, Alice, off easy a lot because its her sister, she eventually is forced to some to terms with the fact she cant save her at the expense of the people of Gotham...Until next episode when she's back to wanting to redeem her

"Everyone wants to be Daryl Davis just without the risk to their personal safety." This line goes so hard like for real. Everyone wants other people to see from their perspective but barely anyone wants to make the effort to connect and see why those other people choose the other way in the first place.

"It works when it's done well!" Can you name one thing that doesn't work when done well?

I feel like the most dangerous thing about redeeming the villain in children's shows is that there's a point where it's literally just teaching a kid a bad dangerous idea. A literal fascist is not someone you can just talk out of being a genocidal maniac, and the fact that more than one children's show is trying to push that as a message is crazy. And teaching children if they try hard enough, they can convince the dangerous, violent, abusive person (be it emotional or physical violence) in their life to be nice instead is just dangerous. It just is. Talk it out is for playground squabbles over what fictional character would win in a fight. Not about crazy people who want to commit ethnic cleansing, or people you love intentionally hurting you. It's like an extension of the same bad idea that a bunch of old romance movies had of a "good girl" falling in love with the "bad boy" and that her love magically made him not be a jackass anymore. NO. Just no. No one's love can magically fix someone who has zero interest, desire, or reason to change. Some people are bad, and maybe they're bad because of a shit past, or indoctrination into a hateful ideology, or whatever other reason they wanna attribute their behavior to. The reasons are all irrelevant, because a great deal of the time it's just better for you to cut them out of your life if you can, or help the authorities put them behind bars if you have to. Just like how an addict has to choose to get clean, a bad person has to choose to reform themselves on their own. Because a bad person is just another type of addict. They're addicted to whatever it is they get from their behavior. Be it authority, the feeling of superiority, the feeling of power, literal power over another person, approval from those who share their bigotry. You cannot change them without them wanting it for themselves, more than whatever it is they're getting out of their bad behavior.

Putting the way character arcs are handled next to fetish stuff made a feature you didn’t touch on click for me. When you’re doing humiliation or anything else edgy in the bedroom, you can actually go hard on the humiliation and shame and pain, and then with the use of one word can snap it into being kind and supportive. The bad redemption arcs are just the protagonist using the safeword to get aftercare

Zukos redemption was done so well, it wasn’t about a bad person doing things for bad reasons, it was a conflicted person doing what they could in a bad situation. The key to redemption is that the person cant just be murdering a bunch of people one minute and suddenly be forgiven when they are sorry. If they killed someone, they should be punished and have that weigh on them for the rest of their time.

I kinda want to see more tales about failed redemptions as well. Character that make an earnest attempt at trying to redeem themselves, but ultimately fail for whatever reason. Whether it be them unable to shake the temptations of their past, a tragedy that undoes all the progress that they have made, or them learning that their acts were so evil that there is no real coming back from them. Just like redemption arcs are important to teach people that not everyone is forever lost in the darkness, a failed redemption arc is important to show people that not everyone can be saved either. Especially if you put the two story lines side by side and put the work into both of them. Then the redemption becomes more impressive and meaningful, and the failed arc becomes all the more tragic.

When you showed the clip of white diamond's "defeat" I felt my face burning. Like I was genuinely, unironically about to catch fire from how cringe inducing that was. I have never experienced that sensation before in my life and I plan not to feel it again. How do you make a villain's defeat/redemption scene so embarassing it is physically painful?

My favorite part about riku's redemption is near the end of 2. When everyone thinks Xemnas is dead and the portal back home is open, riku is dejected and doesn't think he can return home due to what he's done, He says "How am I going to face everyone?" Sora Responds in a perfect way: "Like this!" and making a silly face. Riku laughs, and is moved to go back home, he just got the one answer he needs, Sora takes no time to let him know that nobody will blame him and will welcome him back right then and there, screw the past, live in the present and come back home. Sora didn't need to say anything else, just a quick cheer up and he knows Riku's going to be okay. Makes the Speech Riku gives to Sora in 3 all the more sweet. Riku's sad? Sora makes him laugh. Sora's Sad? Riku Makes sure Sora knows he's loved.

I think one thing that is often forgotten about redemption arcs by writers is that, the more heinous the crimes are they commited, the more time, and the harder they have to try in order to be believably redeemed. Which itself wouldn't be a problem BUT, that would result in characters that are going to be boring given that they will have to try so hard to be good, that they turn into a just a paragon over time in order to compensate. Which then can get boring really quick. The reality is, its much more interesting to see how someone we think "could" be use handles themselves commiting crimes because they were misguided and then getting on the right path but potentially getting a wider understanding of the world then they had before being "uncorrupted". Though I fear that, this too would be something that can be reduced mostly to our curiosity of wanting to be able to be redeemed. Just once I want to see a show where a character tries to get redeemed but for episodes on end can't join the protagonists since they don't trust him at all. Because in real life, people will not trust you for a long time, saying sorry is unfortunatly often not how you mend a relationship, or the world for that matter.

What I like a lot about Sasha's redemption story from Amphibia cartoon is that she is not suddenly redeemed like a lot of redeemed villains/jerks that I have seen recently from other shows. She has slow redemption arcs before finally becoming a hero in Season 3. It helps also that she still remains the same tough girl as she was before her full redemption in Season 3.

There's also tge fact that there are some characters that don't need a redemption arc. Riku needed to be redeemed, Zuko needed to be redeemed but why The Diamonds. Three colonizers who subjugate and experiment other races needed to be redeemed? Maybe they could've redeemed Blue and Yellow but why White Diamond? They couldn't just keep her evil? That would be like redeeming Fire Lord Ozai.

Arguably a good Redemption Arc - even if done by multiple writers - look at King Dedede from the kirby games. Over just about ALL of them you see Dedede start as a bully who doesn't care about his subjects or anyone underneath him; that might makes right, to a self-sacrificing friend for Kirby who cares about his subjects; and values friendship. An actual slow change over many years to be a better person. All thanks to Kirby.

Redemption arcs require WORK. Like actual doing redemption. You have to list all the things to do and make it believable. So much lazy...

There is a term for the edgy villain boy who sad and turns good. They're called Sad but Bad boys. They're often seen when showrunners try to make a Zuko clone but only use writing of a Tumblr sexyman fanfic

You've really opened my eyes to a lot of writing techniques and how a lot tropes work. I wanted to take a minute to tell you: Thank you.

A Silent Voice does “redemption” journey perfectly. Nothing about it was simple, and involved someone who actually regrets their actions and struggles to forgive themselves.

It's sad that, Steven DID an amazing redemption arc with Peridot, but the redemption arc with the diamonds was really rushed and didn't really work

I know you probably just wanted to cover the two ends of the bad redemption arc spectrum in this video by going over only two examples (bigoted uncle and genocidal dictators) to get your point across, but I was kinda hoping you’d go more in depth with how badly the Owl House crew handled Lilith’s “arc”, because she has always been such a pathetic character to me. Like, my frustration with Hunter was more with how we could have had a really fun character and they just couldn’t commit to that because they wanted to make him more important for some reason. His presence is now more obnoxious than anything. But I can at least get why people (in the show) accepted him so quickly. What Lilith did to Eda still makes my blood boil, but what really got my goat was how nearly everyone in the fandom was jumping over the weirdest hurdles to make excuses for her. I actually came across someone who claimed that Eda getting cursed was well deserved because she was always mean to her sister. Like, Jesus tap dancing Christ Now I would give Lilith credit for taking on half of the curse at the end of season 1, but rewatching that season with full knowledge of how we got to that point at all made her look even worse to me. Because she was introduced as a very smug insecure woman who had the gall to openly make fun of her sister for a condition SHE caused. She knew for years that her sister was living with a debilitating illness and, to her own knowledge, was doing it alone. But instead of reaching out to her, or coming clean about it in any of the 20 years they’ve been living apart from each other, she chose to hunt her down like a criminal in hopes that the person who’s been making her sister’s life even more difficult would somehow clean up HER mess. That second witches duel that they had cemented that if it weren’t for Lilith’s little outburst she would have never confessed to Eda, and that if it were up to her, no one would ever learn that the reason her baby sister was suffering for so long was because Lilith was being petty and cowardly. It’s not the fact that she did it (I get it, kids can be dumb and impulsive), it’s the fact that she took so damn long to do anything substantial about it. I guess since they were dead set on redeeming her anyway,I really wanted her to get the Sunset Shimmer treatment in season 2. Where everyone (except Hooty and maybe King) would give her the cold shoulder for a little while, especially Luz. Hell they could have had Eda and Lilith slowly rekindle their sisterly relationship, with the kicker being that Eda would never forgive Lilith for abandoning her and Lilith learning that it would not be her place to ask her to do so. But no, they just forgave her no problem. And all Lilith does for the first half of the second season is whine about how she lost everything she used to be (and be Hooty’s new fuck buddy), but honestly she was a joke from the start. This is something that I’ve personally noticed most modern cartoon redemption arcs fail to do aside from not delegating important time for the characters in question to do the work to change. It’s that their wrongdoings (what they are being redeemed for) are not treated with the severity that it should be by the writers.

I'm glad I didn't get TOO invested in SU's story. Thinking about it now, they spent seasons building up the mystery of the Diamonds. I thought that once they reached Homeworld, the show would get serious and spend a season exploring the world's history and culture and start a rebellion with the gems they met along the way. But nope, we got the most hamfisted and rushed final act imaginable.

I am actually taking notes right now. For whenever I write a redemption arc.

I just got to say I absolutely love how much you understand Riku's arc.

Ok, so I’ve written a decent amount of fan fiction and some original fiction, and this video just reassured me that every character who gets a redemption arc NEEDS to have that be the plan from the very start. When I started planning out characters and arcs for my last writing project, the two characters who were pinned down to swap sides midway through were decided on before I wrote a single scene with either of them. Hell, Isa (an OC, not the KH character) had a whole arc that ended with her turning herself in to the authorities after she had a change of heart midway through the story. She always accepted the weight of the crimes she had committed (none of which were as bad as anything the Diamond Authority did) and most of her actual arc through the story was spent deprogramming her of her death wish instead of justifying the terrorism which she knowingly and intentionally committed. She didn’t change sides because she was seduced by the hero, she had always intended to stick a knife in the villain’s back and had gotten strung along for a decade by her hatred of the systems in place and got used by a nihilistic sociopath who made her feel like she wasn’t alone. Compared to some of these “snapshot redemptions”, that puts a surprising amount of skepticism in me about how much time people spend planning their stories.

My personal favorite villain redemption from a kid's show is Impmon from Digimon Tamers. As a villain, he murders a digimon in front of its own human child (a girl named Jeri) which traumatizes that kid for the rest of the season. And when he comes to regret his actions and decides to become good...and the heroes reject him. And he doesn't expect them to forgive him anyway. All he cares about is saving Jeri, the girl he hurt. The scene where he tries to get her to take his hand to escape and Jeri refuses him despite all the tortue she's currently going through? Heartwrenching. The idea of someone trying to be a good guy, being rejected by their peers, ultimately failing to do their "one good deed" of redemption but still continuing to try to be a better person? THAT's something that sticks with you.

I really like that you took the time to call out people who fantasize about real serial killers like they’re fictional characters and not, you know, actual psychopaths that have done downright horrendous things to innocent people. I wasn’t expecting it and it made me happy :)

“Lily, that’s three things” “Well I like to go above and beyond” I’ve been living by this mindset without knowing it my entire life especially when being petty 😅

Zuko’s redemption arc is him coming to terms with the fact that he doesn’t need to be redeemed, he was never a disgrace to begin with.

My favorite type of "redemption" isnt even redemption, but a paragonal villain realizing theyre wrong and fixing it

Someone should really use the shitty no arc redemption arc trope for a really good twist villain. Trick people into thinking you're a bad writer.

Sunset is just a really well-made and solid character. She's pretty much the only reason why Equestria Girls is fun to watch along with the songs and villians.

One excellent example of a well done redemption arc was missed. The movie Megamind was entirely a redemption arc.

I seriously never understood the "You beat me up, so I'm your friend now" mentality. Sure, sometimes it can work like that. At least in terms of respect. With certain characterizations. But sometimes they completely skip the steps of adjusting to not being out for themselves anymore, or getting to the point where they even WANT to change.

The biggest problem with most of those failed Redemption Arcs is that they never really cared to understand the villain's motives to begin with. Without understanding what's wrong, there's no way to understand how to make it right, how to walk back from that extreme. Without that understanding, even an attempt to write such a thing will feel fake and bogus. Most don't even attempt to write it, since they don't understand the path. Lazy writing makes bad villains and worse redemption.

I like what Kipo did, they didn't "redeem" their villains per se. Spoilers ahead: one dies by sacrifice, while still being imprisoned and being watched closely by the team and the community, they don't get a "I forgive you" except from the main protagonist iirc. Another villain is giving a second chance at not being a bigot, and not only there is hesitation between the team of heroes, but the villain actually refuses, and prefers to fall into the void, forever irredeemed.

RWBY has a lot of issues, especially I more recent volumes. but I do love 2 things: 1) we see emerald doubt her allegiance for volumes, even if it wasn't voiced out loud until later because of fear 2) we see the power of friendship speach be used to try and persuade Raven and fail, she's just just like "words? OK, here's fire, bye"

Rushed development often feels unearned because if the character doesn’t have to work to better themselves, then it doesn’t make sense for them to have been flawed in the first place so if you want your character to grow as a person, they have to earn it and can’t just have one Epiphany and be suddenly different. Personal growth takes effort and time you can’t just flip a switch.

This video often gets me to think about prince trellis from the Amulet book series. He reminds me of Zuko in a lot of ways. Book 1: is antagonistic. Book 2: is shown to be resentful of his father (the elf king) and betrays him by leaving Book 3: is a part of the main cast, works with the hero who is hesitant to trust him. By book six, he is a noble hero, working to fight his father’s influence. I think he is what avatar fans think Zuko’s story is.

I agree with you, I despise it when the 'arc' is skipped and villains just decide they are the good guys just like that, Riku, Zuko, and Peridot were done well

steven universe even has a villain that teaches a lesson about everyone being able to change but not wanting to, an irredeemable villain.... and it's kevin, the highschooler.

Zuko will always be the gold standard of how to do a redemption arc. Part of what makes Zuko's character arc compelling is that he just as a main character as Aang. Even if the show is called "Avatar The Last Airbender", the show also spends time to flesh out and give spotlight to other important characters even the antagonists (well maybe some are more favored than others but a lot of characters still stand out). There are multiple moments or episodes that focus on Zuko, fleshing him out as a character, and his ideals being challenged which is all the more reason what made his gradually built-up development in book 3 impactful.

Funny thing I realised is that most good redemption stories are actually with child characters, Riku is a child in KH1 and CoM, Hunter is a child, Zuko is a child as much as the fandom tries to act like he’s not. This is probably because kids change their opinions on things much faster and easier then your racist uncle Andy could because people at that age are much more stubborn and those redemptions usually take longer in fiction because of that

This is probably my favorite out of all your videos. Both because I’m a sucker for a good redemption arc and for how you explained what makes it actually good and how redemptions like the diamonds and Catra’s fail in being one.

me when a sory yada yada's over the arc: "and nothing can go wrong!" "OH NO IT ALL WENT WRONG!!"

Odd to think but I feel like Vegeta in DBZ was the most realistic of what should happen in these 'Evil guy switches sides while undergoing no actual change' scenarios. He basically is still an evil shithead until his sacrifice in Buu Arc and he keeps killing/hurting and causing mayhem for everyone and he's canonically damned to hell. You can't exactly 'get over' of an entire lifetime and culture of genocidal power thirst in a day.

Animes : "we'll ignore this."

Getting outdome by dragon ball z at storytelling is crazy

Who the hell is this person, how did they end up in my recommended list, and why are they so funny? Loved the video, gotta check out more of your content.

This video explains my frustrations with stories sometimes. Like yeah, I know it's tedious to write an entire arc sometimes but that doesn't justify skipping everything.

I do appreciate you calling me sexy stranger as well as voicing over my questions since I have issues with a stutter.

They should do more "villain" stories like Finn and his father Martin. In the end, Finn accepts that his father will never change and decides to distance himself from him. Sometimes it's better to walk away rather than harm yourself by trying to change someone who doesn't want to change.

Vegeta was a decent one as well. Starts off blowing up planets and working for frieza. Even kills Nappa and seriously wounds a lot of people. Then on namek he’s not a hero by any means, but he has to work with the heroes to beat the bigger evil guy. His goal is still to wish for immortality and kill goku. Then in the cell saga sure he’s on the hero team but he’s kind of an asshole about it and he’s the whole reason cell got his perfect form. Then in the Majin saga he has an identity crisis because he has begun to settle down and become good, and finally decides he’s okay with that in the end and fully comes over to the good guy team. His arc takes all of dragon ball z and it feels like it’s deserved.

I despise the trend of "all main characters forgive them at the same time and amount" and I enjoyed Sunset Shimmer not being trusted even if they were giving her another chance. They each had different stages of forgiveness. Too many shows just have everything forgiven and moved past when that's not how healing works.

Like many other things in life, redemption is not given... it's earned.

This reminds me how terrible the redemption arc with Namaari in Raya and the Last Dragon. Yes, all is forgiven when the person who destroyed the world tried to fix it because it could also save her ass anyway. The entirety of the film was just gaslighting the main character

love the new video format with moving pictures, don't know if this has been done before but I just notice it and still remember the video in regards about why the adagio doesn't have an redemption arc

Oh I've been waiting a long time for this one

Love the music you used for the last section. Reminds me of my childhood, cause those werey favorite games growing up. It also sounds so well for the context.

So there's this anime called Trigun where the main character Vash has this belief that anyone can be redeemed and doesn't want to kill anyone and the big question the anime asks is "Is this a character strength or a character flaw". Most shows normally take one side or another, either the hero refuses to kill anyone and this is shown to be their greatest strength or the hero kills everyone who looks at them weirdly and the writer bends over backward to justify this revenge-filled psycho fantasy while unironically ignoring the argument that the hero is not that much better than the villain. However, in Trigun both arguments are brought up and treated fairly. Vash himself constantly questions whether or not his belief is the right course of action and he does ultimately have to kill someone for the greater good which in itself has consequences for the character. It's really well done and it's a shame we don't see that more.

The last redemption arc I think was actually handled well was Hugo/Scarlemagne from Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts. Mainly cause it took half a season to show he had the potential, and then an entire season to earn it.

0:42 "Sure redemption arcs work well when they're done well, so why aren't they ever done well" I started binge watching your stuff for advice & how to improve, but I stayed bc you're just so funny. That line legit got a laugh out of me xD

The worst redemption arc would be having the victim be obligated to forgive the person that screwed them over, and the narrative would deem it as a 'character development' at the expense for their agency. It's kinda crappy in the writer's part to force ALL of the victims to forgive their perpetrators, which is quickly deemed to have the perpetrator to be 'redeemed' without having to work for it ( and the victims will be seen as 'bad guys' if they don't forgive them ). It's mind boggling that right now, redemption arcs are the perpetrators doing the bare minimum of actually doing the work to make up for their mistakes, or even worse, not face any consequences at all. But what is much worse, is the victims have to feel obligated to forgive their perpetrators.

Seems writers are confusing redemption arcs with heel-face turns: an action based on new information that opposes their prior actions. (My favorite example of this trope is Shadow from SA2. He was going to "Throw It All Away" but immediately turns around when he remembers Maria's dieing words.) This sudden change of character goals is surprising, which is the point, but could be used to kickstart a redemption arc.

So what your saying is that the pacing of romance plots and redemption arcs should be swapped?

Garnet post season 1 was really just a slap in the face. She went from the "Everything is going to be all right, I'm here now" character to another side character, ironically in a show where having steven shape shift into a suddenly very strong very capable character would've helped the narrative. They even had it in the movie where garnet refusing was treated as a big scale tipping moment as she proceeds to casually hold her own with the big bad, but thats about all we get of that again before she's put back in her "Only useful for fusion exposition" box.

I always find Starlight an interesting example in redemption discussions, because she highlights the difference between forgiveness and redemption. Starlight at the end of season 5 was not redeemed. She was forgiven, sure, but not redeemed. She spent the entirety of the next season wallowing in guilt over what she'd done, complete with a PTSD attack the moment the idea of reuniting with Sunburst was raised. She kept panicking, making mistakes, backsliding, and it wasn't until the finale of the season that she finally found her way and actually put in the work to redeem herself by saving Equestria from changeling conquest.

I really like your videos because they're really well made, and are a really good way for me to get an idea of what I should and shouldn't do for my future show.

I like "redemption arcs" where the villain doesn't actually redeem themselves, but instead realizes they temporarily have a common goal with the heroes. Everyone hate each other and no one trusts each other, but they've got bigger fish to fry.

Honestly, even though you probably won't cover it, I'm curious about your thoughts on Endeavors redemption arc from My Hero Academia. He's an example of a character who is dislikable but still compelling and interesting. He abuses his family for his own selfish goal of surpassing All Might the no. 1 hero, but when All might retires and his dream of truly beating all might will never come true, he realises just how much he has hurt and abused his family for no reason and that the damage he's done may be irreparable. So he stops being awful and genuinely apologies saying that there was no excuse for what he did and his family have no obligation to forgive him for any of it. He also allows his family to have time and space away from him because being around him is uncomfortable for them. Endeavors redemption arc starts at the end of the third season and is still ongoing because the writer recognizes it as a journey instead of just a trope to cover and move past.

This is good writing advice. Nice channel btw, I don't think this channel is for a person like me but I wish you the best of luck on your content creation

There could be another angle of the amount of redemption arcs in storytelling and why they are rushed. The desired to be redeemed and not putting in the work to get better. Healing and getting better, even from minor slips up, is hard and exhausting. Healing from trauma or bad habits can take years and people can always regress in times of extreme stress. I like the fantasy of fixing all my flaws and them being forgiven. It means I don't have to constantly be vigilant, and I don't have to constantly work towards a better version of myself. I know that is not how it works but gosh is it appealing. Example: I suck at proofreading. I am getting better, but it has been a problem for years. I still need to edit this post due to typos.