We shouldn't forget that a CoC (you could also call it "diligence in communication" [DiC]) is a huge pillar for our society.

most people who just install hyprland from the repos and have probably never heard about any community (like me) are crawling from under a rock and being like "wut? who's this?" and 15 minutes later they forget about the whole thing

It's called Discord for a reason.

"Most of you.....are actually adults." LMAO

This is why Linus Torvalds saying that you should find people you like working with is so important.

thank tux you made a video on this, I was getting worried I'd have to think and form my own opinion in the matter

Hi traveller, feel free to rest here. have some snacks before you continue with your journey into the pits of this comment section

I’m too old for this

It makes zero sense to have developers running chatrooms. I personally would not want to be responsible for any kind of internet mass communication channel in any way, shape or form.

Tbf, if distros start pulling packages for developer/community toxicity, we'll barely have distros anymore.

Installed hyprland a week ago, it's great, don't care about the drama.

I'll have you know, I'm a 36-year-old child.

> remove hyprland because toxic so same for gnome too?

>the anime wm has stupid discord drama all over it. Who could have possible foreseen this?

Honestly, I didn't even know this existed.

I like cheese. Cheese has no drama. Can‘t we just ignore shit and eat cheese together? I have cheese and am willing to share…

The outcome of this will be interesting. Hyprland is currently the best tiling compositor, and I don’t think anyone is wanting to fork it, so vaxry is going to probably continue being a major player in the space.

Having done all my research already and looking at all sides of the different angles. I think it's a two-way street. The email needed a couple of revisions for tone, and Vaxry read things that really weren't there or implied by those emails. From there it just escalated. Honestly I feel sorry for him. I've been in his position before. I surrounded myself with some terrible people and I was having life issues irl too. It really just warps your judgement completely and it makes you do and say dumb s***. I eventually did a couple of really terrible/dumb things and thought it was justified bc of my surroundings. Seeing meaning in things that really weren't written or implied or was too vague to cast judgement on. Then escalating it and causing a s***storm like this one. I was lucky I still had ppl to talk me down and make me come to my senses. I hope he can too.

I couldn't care less about how 'nice' the people who develop the software I use are, that said I don't use Hyprland and if I had to choose between it or an interchangeable project where both meet my needs, I would go with the one with the 'nicer' developer/ community. That said, contribution bans should be used on people that try to sabotage/ add malware/ backdoors to the project.

Can someone explain why Vaxry actually recieved an email from FDO if hyprland has nothing to do with it?

9:46 My day would have been vastly more enjoyable if I did lock that thread

Regarding The Wayland & Shilling Situation

In 66 years iv'e noticed that the people that have issues with what you say are just people with issues. I mean you are very civil in you language and as nice as you are, and people have issues with what you say are the very people I'm talking about. Very level headed. IMO

Well that's a nothingburger of a situation that got blown out of proportion...

This is legit some of the most petty childish drama I've ever seen.

i agree that hyprland does not need a discord. It would prevent alot of drama and allow vaxry to focus on coding and keep his opinions out of the spotlight. Also this will keep happening. polymc vs prism launcher, hyprland and it's fork etc. the one thing opensource is good at is forking when a dev doesn't like something. And it would be good if everyone could be tolerant of each others ideas, but that is not going to happen with modern tribalism. view projects like how you view content creators, and try not to harass people for having different opinions. the block button exists for a reason.

You know it's a controversial issue when Brodie's "opinion" is to make up your own mind. Just speculating though, I think he at least mildly disagrees with banning Vaxry from the FDO.

I could add a CoC stating: "Just leave people alone." Then I could pre-emptively ban all Twitter users.

Actually, I like being able to hop into a project specific discord and ask casually for advice from other users, I find it super handy. It's like an actually good version of LLM's... asking other people.

The issue is you can't easily 'not interact with FTO'. If this was a smaller project that wasn't in charge of everything this would be way more acceptable.

lol isn't the linux community great.. :)

"This is going to be the first of many situations where the FOSS ecosystem is going to deal with the fact that there is a lot of people that you do not agree with." Didn't we already learn this during the vim/emacs wars, the UNIX wars, the incessant "I use Arch btw" plague, Elastic doing its licensing games, RedHat pissing off its own CentOS base, Redis doing its licensing things, etc. These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head xD. EDIT: Systemd vs init!! I knew I forgot one.

Brodie is the Gotham Chess of the Linux community: he lives off the drama farming.

I expected this video just to understand a portion of the situation, good summary and message about it

As a non-binary hyprland user for now I am going to keep using hyprland until something better for my use case comes along. If hyprland continues to be the best for me I will continue to use it. Possibly avoiding the discord because it is not needed. Not that discord trolls concern me I have been in the hyprland discord with my pronouns in my user name and only discussed hyprland. That being said I would prefer people not to be dicks

I really can't believe that this has blown up this much. I mean seriously, what happened was not the best way to deal with this situation but also no reason to try to remove the project. There should have been a simple apology and the issue should have been resolved. There are people out there who treat other people way worse. This is of course an insult to some, but it is way less of an insult than if Linus lashes out at a contributor asking (for Linus) stupid questions. And what now? Everyone should also delete Linux? No of course not, since you have to separate the project and the people behind it. Especially if the people behind it aren't that bad.

I think a lot of people would be surprised at how many people in the FOSS world are much bigger assholes and much worse crybabies than any of the people involved in this matter. The difference is that most of them communicate through more professional means than an unmoderated discord server. It also shows the perils of letting engineers communicate instead of PR personnel.

Awww, I'm fairly good ❤

Tiling compositor drama is my favorite KZfaq genre.

As a trans woman, I find my kind's newfound obsession with "preferred pronouns" actively detrimental to trans acceptance in every way. It further promotes the idea that we are different, that we are the dreaded Other-particularly when combined with such overblown outrage over the most diminutive deviation from our demands. What do we accomplish, brethren and "allies," by forming virtual lynch mobs and going after people over every little gaffe and jest? Is this your idea of "justice?" It certainly isn't mine. How can anybody say with a straight face that a mild prank is more toxic than trying to intimidate and harass someone into submission? Even the trite and tenuous perennial argument-that, by using a product, you're subsidizing someone's alleged bigotry-doesn't hold water here, because this is FOSS; if any of you need an echo chamber that badly, make your own fork and don't let any of the icky knotsees work on it. Oh, but that wouldn't provide much of a dopamine hit, would it? This is nothing more than a struggle session. It has nothing to do with the project, it has nothing to do with the code, it is no more and no less than a gaggle of goons attacking someone for wrongthink purely to aggrandize themselves. The hyperpoliticized screeching that's come to the FOSS community since 2016 has not resulted in better software. It has not resulted in better communities around that software. it has only served to provide malignant narcissists with yet still more power that they are fundamentally unfit to wield. People, it's time to *stop enabling narcissism.* Far too many people, for far too long, have attached themselves to FOSS projects with the sole goal of proclaiming their own importance. *These* are the bad actors who must be excised from the community-not a handful of people hanging out on the Discord server for a project so obscure that it doesn't even have its own Wikipedia page. If the very concept of FOSS hinges on the idea that it's "free as in free speech," then free speech must be preserved within the FOSS community-and if there is a bedrock principle of free speech, it's that offending someone is no justification to silence someone else, be it through displays of power, smear campaigns, or screeching.

>discord its one minute in but I bet on lack of grass issues

I'm happpy to use products from projects with CoCs empowering toxic people and their ideology, I just never donate or contribute anything.

LOL. I saw Chris Titus' video and came immediately here. I was thinking "Where is Brodie's video?" Thank you for covering this.

Even if I believed he was a racist bigot (I don't think they are, a little childish maybe I didn't find the jokes funny), I would still use the code there are a lot of people I don't like that make great products that's just how it is ( I don't know them at all so I neither like nor dislike them) eg. if you are using a lithium battery it doesn't mean you agree with how they are made etc etc. Banning someone for their alleged views is imo the antithesis of being open and free.

IDGAS team here ... ✋

I read Drew's initial blog post, and wasn't convinced by it. In fact, I don't agree with Drew's politicis. And yet, I use Sway as my daily driver. I would use Hyprland too, if it ever got to work on my machine. I don't care about either developer's politics, and I'm pretty sure most people don't. We have got to stop these purity tests being forced on the community!

people on the hyprland discord are kind of jerks though, I once asked for help with the issue of: when I moved the mouse to the side it would go to the other monitor, even if i was playing a game, thing was, the game was league, the response from a contributor was: stop playing league. Then when i mentioned it happened with other games like Heroes of the storm and starcraft and that it doesnt happen on kde he said: that maybe a problem with wlroots, and discussion died there. So I basically got told to f off. they also have a bot that just pings people when they open league telling them to stop, it was funny the first time, but it gets annoying, and is completely unprofessional and unhelpfull. I also got a warning when i responded to a message (and it auto pinged the person) saying that if i pinged a mod again i would get banned. I personally think its a shitshow (or at least was when it haappened)

I don't want to live on this planet anymore....

Brodie can you talk about Vulkan WSI? It's something that is coming Nvidia drivers 560 this year

I really don't know if what happened on the Discord was particularly professional, but I don't really like the idea of banning someone from another online space just because they behaved inappropriately in one online space. It seems very harsh and pretty much sets up a scenario such that if you screw up once, you've made enemies of anyone who sympathizes with the person you hurt, forever. I get that Red Hat/FreeDesktop might be worried about how being associated with Vaxry would hurt their brand, but in my view as long as he was following their rules on their official channels, it doesn't make a lot of sense to ban him. I know that this "offsite rule enforcement" thing is becoming popular, such that if you violate a community's rules in a different place before you even join it, you can be held accountable and banned even if you had not yet agreed to follow those rules when you engaged in the behavior, or if the community you behaved that way in had different rules to start with. I don't like that policy and I know that things never used to work that way on the Internet... it used to be that if you screwed up and got banned from one place, then you were banned from that one place, and that was it, you were free to continue following the rules of other communities and not have something offsite used as an excuse to ban you... that is, your behavior within a given community wasn't assumed to be a reflection of how you conduct yourself within the rules of another. Now it seems like it's very much a "there is but one universal bar, if you don't meet it, you are immediately banned from nearly everything except for communities who have no problem with your behavior and who won't expect you to improve." I feel that because of this policy, I can never do anything high-profile because... if some stuff I said decades ago when I was a teenager was brought back up again, that would be enough to get me banned from almost half the Internet. And the only reason that hasn't happened is because I'm not high-profile enough to be on that many people's radars. If I ever was, I would be screwed. I guess the moral of the story is, if you're a normal person who can't behave perfectly all the time and meet these high standards consistently, don't be in a leadership position and do your best to avoid attention. Use lots of pseudonyms and don't worry about getting credit.

I love that your video is about giving straight information without taking a side. I love that it’s here’s what’s up, here’s what you can look into, I’m not going to push ideas into your head. Very nice.

"Treating someone as worse because of their lack of understanding of an issue." Well, Arch users will be breaking *that* rule often.

If only people understood the meaning of Free and Open....

I'd pay money to have someone arbitrate a debate between the two parties.

I'm a bit worried about a split in FDO software or hyprland being abandoned. I do believe that opening up this idea that you could be banned for things that occur outside of the project is kinda insane. Due to just basic time constraints this leads to the promotion of witch hunts. Plenty of people could be barred from the project with this mentality.

Ok, but where did Nicco's video on "Why Hyprland was banned from Freedesktop" go? Unlisted?

How is having a Discord different from having an IRC or a Matrix server in terms of how the community interacts with it? Would you also say OSS projects shouldn't have IRC servers?

As a non-binary person, idc. I like hyprland and it's codebase and will continue using it

I didn't even know this was going on, but I appreciate the video explaining it so I know about it in the future if someone were to bring it up to me. 😊 Yeah we live in interesting times indeed

Changing peoples nicknames can be quite problematic. That's why it gives you a warning when you do it as well. One server I am on, staff regularly changes nicknames for fun, but its sort of to be expected at that place, and they don't change it out of spite. I think it was quite unprofessional. Calling it hateful biggotry is a bit much tho.

12:07 / 15:28 Well said Brodie!

what is the matter in first place???

This whole situation was absolutely on my Linux 2024 bingo card. Hell yeah. 😎 One step closer to bingo.

The Contributor Covenant facilitates drama like this. And that's by design.

Only crazy people on the Internet.

maybe i'm stupid, but finished the video i still don't understand what the argument is about?

Trying to control an outside developer and associated community for words and actions that happen outside the organization covered by a Code of Conduct is essentially the worst case scenario that the CoC doomers warned us about.

My conclusion is that I don't really care what happened. As long as I can still use Hyprland and get updates what happened between everyone involved is their business not mine.

If a person changed my nickname (does not matter what, even one letter), I would be very pissed off. My nickname is my property, and as long as it does not violate common guidelines, no one has any right to interfere with it. It is a super dick move. Now, hyperland package does not need to suffer because of some discord shitheads. I see literally no relation.

I often see things slowly but surely escalate, first within the rules, then jokingly outside the rules and finally chaos. And this often happens to be about topics that are not directly related with the community's primary subject. A proper code of conduct / rules should ban off-topic discussions in it's entirely, exactly to avoid this kind of drama.

I learned of this through another channel's video that focused only on Vaxry's blog posts. He said the usual "come to your own conclusion" but it was pretty obvious he was leaving some stuff out. Now I can see why.

I use Hyprland, and I was not even aware of the drama until I saw this video.

I hate it when communities of anything serious are hosted on Discord, the community over there is just so deeply unserious in many ways.

I tend to side with the people who *don't* try to control and regulate what others are doing in their own spaces.

I've been trying to run Hyprland or sway in my samsung zfold5 with termux and termux-x11 (I was told termux-x11 supports wayland) does anyone know any source or any documentation that can help me to set it up?

i feel like the only actual solution to a problem like this is to prevent people discussing social activism (or any other personal or non-project-related issues) in their development channels. if people want to be discussing how to rob a bank in non-dev channels, it's their right. if hitler wanted to contribute code to an open-source project, he should be allowed to do so, as long as he is not trying to push any of his political or social agenda.

I don't think a developer, or their project, should be punished for what their community does, or acts like. I'm coming into this fresh off the Tech Over Tea Episode with Vaxry. I have seen Nicco's video about this subject as well, and having spent a little time in the server, all I can say is the support i got assistance for was superb, but I don't think I would just hang out there. I don't really have much coding knowledge. I don't think I could really contribute anything significant to the project. About the best I can do is assist with troubleshooting issues that I had previously encountered.

The main issue with the "just focus on the code" people is that that statement typically comes when someone calls out harassment or demands that something be done about harassment in the community instead of coming in at the point the harassment initially happens. If "focus on the code" is really the critical thing then why tolerate any harassment in the first place?

And I’m considering leaving KDE because some SDDM bug when your default shell is Fish. Wanna try Hyprland but I’m a bit of a lazy person to configure all the needed stuff.

You’re right with your opinion on discords and with every project having a server. But Linus was only half right about the benefits of open source: open source is good if you want to get people with different opinions to work together. But only if you don’t give them the ability to interact with each other too much. The linux kernel works so well in this regard, because it only has mail as central form communication between contributors. Mail is slow and people think a bit more before they send one. It’s not as easy to get pulled into a heated discussion.

As a trans person, this is way less of an issue than freedesktop wants to portray it as. Sure, I may not represent every trans person, however I feel like most of us: (a) can take a joke, and; (b) don't take this shit seriously, esp when there are people doing actual discrimination (not whatever is supposedly wrong with what vaxry did) within FOSS. edit: see my replies for clarifications on my personal position, clearly i was a bit too vague with what i meant :P

0:00 free content Brodie don't complain embrace the drama lol

I actually just gave Hyprland a go for the first time and absolutely loved it, had no idea this was going on LOL I don't really feel either party was being very mature, but I also feel that insulting someone's pronouns is not a good way to get anything done, or good humor. For me, I think that because of how this all started, I'm simply going to take this as more evidence that Discord is not worth your time, and let it go. This in no way needs to get this heated, and it's just gonna escalate. We must learn to let things go, and let folks get back on the right track to learn from their mistakes.

Now a random person will show up and put a backdoor into hyprland *grabs popcorn*

If the discord server's CoC said "mess around and we'll change your username," all the CoC proponents would be completelty fine with the situation.

Good to know that eve online isn’t the only toxic discord / reddit, I always thought it was just spy’s trying to devide the community

Im a part of a generation that thinks someone that doesnt believe the same things you do is your enemy.

Whenever I hear mastodon...

My code of conduct one liner:- "Be excellent to each other"

man the whole thing was so funny for me, I join the hyprland discord to see if ill need help setting up a drawing tablet, i manage to set it up and forget about the server, few hours later first blog post comes out, i read the blog post and notice that vraxy is prob polish, no kurwa what is my luck

4:06 "An idea isn't responsible for the people who believe in it"

The hyprland discord was a really bad idea. I think we can all agree on that.

yeah, fight eachother over pronouns, cancel projects and people, as long as youre not fighting those who *actually* oppress and exploit you. make sure to never think on your own or question your ideology. this is the most important thing in the world, not unity, not solidarity, not liberation.

There will always be people who like to stir up the smallest possible drama as if it was the worst day in human history, neither can you please everyone. In fact, on the internet it is way easier to make people pissed off. Tectone, an example of a man getting sent death threats on Twitter on a daily basis for over 3 years, I know this very well. When the pronoun situation happened, it could've been resolved in a 30-minute Discord call, and no one would've know. However, due to the blog posts, Mastodon and especially the Reddit post, it got way out of hand. I'll be real though, I had no idea hyprland even had a Discord, nor would I really care. It's a pretty good piece of software in my experience. This is informative and unfortunate

My views are pretty much the same to what someone posted with minor disagreements. "Is Vaxry a nice guy? No. Is Vaxry a very young, arrogant and opinionated adult? Yes. Are Vaxry's blogposts a problem? Yes, exchanges like these are very unsavory. Is the Hyprland discord community toxic? It kind of is. (though this is very complicated, It's not all that clear as people are making it out to be). With all of that out of the way, I think anyone who has read Lyude's emails and thinks this is fine is a bit insane. To me this whole thing is basically bully vs. bully. However one bully is just a kid with zero wisdom/life experience & the other bully is representing a big organization & is trying to rally support to their cause in a very political way that really shouldn't ever occur in any serious work environment, open source or not. To me it seems like some folks at the FDO decided that they strongly dislike Vaxry (I can get this part, since he is not a very likeable guy) for various reasons & then decided to give him the middle finger in a really ill prepared and juvenile way." They should have acted better given their station lol. Warning my ass, what they gave was essentially a big "We are gonna ban you because some members complained about what your community has done years ago" They didn't send a warning to see if he was gonna improve, they sent a notice as a way to provoke an reaction. I could smell the passive-aggressiveness of that letter coming miles away.

Who cares? Someone who takes time to edit someone's bio by abusing their power. This whole drama could have been so easily avoided if they really didn't care.

Honestly i don't agree with hyprland not needing a discord server, it's been nothing but helpful and welcoming to me, fixing bugs, having some conversations in general chat etc. I didn't have that expierence elsewhare. I dont' want to take sides here, but tarring everyone over the same brush is also not a solution.

Just looked at the amount of comments. Holy moly...

im enjoying hyprland. i think ill stick with it

I don’t agree with Vax on most things, but I do agree with RedHat abusing their position to harass and force other FOSS projects to do want them to do.